cbrahma

At this point I agree, since most of the bloggers engaged in the 'discussion' seem only to be capable of responding by flaming.

i hope the end of your day is sooner than here. IMHO it should be shut down many posts ago.

This is a good one. It is like the compassionate dictator. The Inquisitors claimed to be torturing people for the 'good of their soul'. I always worry when people claim to be controlling me 'for my own good'. It turns out no good ever comes of it.

But when we are slaves to a compassionate well wishing master that has our very best wellfare at heart

This is not an installment of the "Evil Christians vs the Sainly Vaisnava" graphic novel. I am discussing principle against principle not stereotypes.

As a "Christian" you certainly didn't come here to learn.

You came here to find faults and criticise the Vaishnava ways.

 

As a Christian, you came here thinking you already have all the answers and wanted to show all the flaws and defects in the Vaishnava path.

 

I don't think you converted anybody, so now you can back back to Church and smell the moth balls and flatulence in the pews as the congregation has trouble digesting the dead animal caracasses they gorged on before coming to church.

Yes Jesus is the Master. Jesus is also divine.

Sounds strange. People who ask legitimate questions should be given logical answers. Playing cat and mouse games and avoiding the question is not a good sign.

 

The faithful do not need any discussion on the authority of the gurudeva. And if the faithless should not discuss this topic, then this topic is not open for discussion for anyone.

Ah yes offenses. The 4th principle in action.

To which truth, logic provability must take second place.

How admirably effective this system is.

rotfl

 

anything else just aids you in perpetrating more offenses. I choose not to go that route.

 

admin, are you on vacation or something?

On the contrary I am quite fascinated by the unpersuabability of many of the bloggers here. But then once I am aware of their belief system it all makes perfect sense.

I didnt' read two cantos of the Srimad Bhagavatam not to learn anything.

I didn't read the entire Bhagavad Gita just to remain ignorant.

I didnt' attend literally hundreds of lectures just to be intractable.

I'm not trying to convert anybody as much as to decode the mystery of the

diksa submission. You can lay it at the door of Christianity if you wish. That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what my faith is, it is logic and experience that dictate my conclusion.

As a "Christian" you certainly didn't come here to learn.

You came here to find faults and criticise the Vaishnava ways.

 

As a Christian, you came here thinking you already have all the answers and wanted to show all the flaws and defects in the Vaishnava path.

 

I don't think you converted anybody, so now you can back back to Church and smell the moth balls and flatulence in the pews as the congregation has trouble digesting the dead animal caracasses they gorged on before coming to church.

It's surprising how quickly such spiritually evolved entities resort to personal flaming.

It must be very difficult being so perfect and intelligent around us morons.

In spite of the uninspiring nature of the dialogue I've had with some of the bloggers here, it has been very instructive.

I've learned the g. vaisnava apologetics and I didn't know one existed.

There are four principles I've been able to disginguish that justify the vaisnava diska dominance.

1.No g. Vaisnava community is responsible for its behavior towards any inquiring/aspiring individual because we are all solely responsible for what happens to us.

2. Everbody is enslaved by something. (there is an interesting incompatiblity between this principle and no 1)

3. Loss of ego (surrender) to the all-knowing guru is the prime requisite for entry into the sacred wisdom.

4. Offense (whether true or not) is an insurmountable obstacle to 'advancement' which is defined as increasing proximity to the loving Godhead.

Thank you for the education.

Acceptance of these principles certainly makes the belief system of the diksa-guru dominance mechanism impregnable.

You have no idea what I am doing now or before I posted but I understand your need to believe it.

It is obvious from each post this person puts on this thread and all others that they had zero interest in chanting. They knew what would get other participants to pay attention, got the attention and now has gone for the throat.

 

responding with quotes and so on to this person only helps them to offend all the more.

 

i am still in wonder as to how this is person is being allowed to behave and offend so blantantly on a vaisnava forum.

Child abuse is specific to the vaisnava institutions. It's hardly meaningless. I know victims of vaisnava abuse personally.

Blame-the-victim mentality is a maintstay of an abusive system.

Tell it to the victims of the Holocost. Tell it to the victims of Stalin. Stop slinging meaningless phrases. Why don't just come out with it and blame God for all the apparent unjustified misery in this world? What the Hell does it have to do with diksa? Did the Jews in Germany and Europe take diksa from Hitler? Are you against all forms of hierarchy? I'm sick of your ignorant and thoughtless posts.

In the above quote you clearly blame others for your loss of interest in chanting.

 

 

'Blame' is an ambiguous word when it means 'giving a reason for'. There is no blame in the moral sense, because I haven't taken up anything. This is too much coming from a religious doctrine that requires surrender to a guru, a complete acquiesence to another human being. Faith is impossible to break. If you just want one side of a discussion to bolster 'your faith', it can't be very strong.

ah a Sridar disciple. That explains it

There is a French saying 'si beau mais si faux' which translates badly into

'so beautiful and so false'

The most beautiful animals are often the most dangerous. I need as much a grounding in Truth as in Beauty.

When I was young boy I used to go to church.

But, I always hated it because it was so boring and dry.

The church always smelled bad like moth balls mixed with flatulence.

 

Krishna consciousness was always beauty, nectar and sweetness from the very beginning.

What really brought me in to the Krishna consciousness path was the fact that when I picked-up a book I could sense a kind of nectarean sweetness and sometimes I sensed a lotus flower fragrance in the study of the books.

The idea of nectar and bliss was never a far-off theoretical ideal to me.

It was a very real thing that could be experienced in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

To this very day, these books of Srila Prabhupada are just nectar to me.

 

If I could not have actually sensed this nectar and this bliss from the very beginning, I would never have been able to distinguish Krishna consciousness from the other philosophies and religions that I was looking into back in the early 70's.

 

It's always amazing to me that after some period of concentrated study and chanting of these books that some Lotus flower fragrance starts to waft into my soul.

 

Even these books have different flavors.

 

The Nectar of Devotion has it's own flavor as does Sri Caitanya Caritamrita and Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

All these books have their own unique flavor and fragrance.

 

The nectar of devotion is like the most powerful of addictive substances.

 

Even if you only taste one molecule of that nectar one time in your life you will be addicated forever.

Even if you just smell one atom of the saffron mercy-particles of the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, you will never be able to forget that and your whole life will be spoiled with the thought of someday smelling that saffron mercy particle again.

 

Of course, it takes many lifetimes of penance to be able to get a molecule of that saffron mercy-particle to touch your heart, but when it does you will know it is real and beyond any sentimental faith and philosophical doctrine.

Tell it the victims of child abuse. I chose NOT to be a victim by making a realistic assessment of the diksa-enslavement mechanism.

All pre-religious systems such as modern psychology and Zen etc. as well as all true religious systems teach us not to blame anyone but ourselves for the predicament in which we find ourselves. As aspiring followers of Gaudiya Vaisnavism we accept that our predicament is that we are adverse to the service of Sri Krsna from time immemorial. In our practical lives it often manifests as a lack of interest in chanting Krsna Nama. So it is impossible to blame others for our lack of attraction to Krsna Nama, and in fact, impossible that others are responsible for our fallen condition. cbrahma in many posts whines and blames others for his own personal predicament. Of course cbrahma while certainly a classic self-deceiver seems also to have have hidden motives. Whether these motives are consciously known to him, only he and the Lord knows.

When you have nothing left- Speculate on personal character and motive.

There is quite a diversity within Christianity itself. I am a Lutheran and therefore NOT fundamentalist.

I don't presume to know who is going to hell. Only God can decide that.

First, there are more than 2 spiritual paths in the world: Protestant Christianity (the path you you follow) and ISKCON (the path you chose to no longer follow). Giving up on ISKCON AS your SOLE Path does not mean one must revert back to fundamentalist Christianity, with all it's baggage of hellfire and brimstone, and condeming all others to hell who don't follow their religion. Instead of going back to that narrow-minded religious though, you could have took the good things you like in Christianity, the good things you like in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and whatever other path.. and make your own personal path to God.

 

To suggest that Srila Prabhupada and all other deceased Hare Krishnas are presently burning in hell because they weren't Christians, is quite offensive. You've turned your back on ISKCON and now condemn it as a false religion. When you should realize it is one of many paths to God, just not the path for you. Also, turning your back on ISKCON does not mean you had to turn your back on Krishna and call him a false god.

What gall you have just assuming what Jesus had on his plate.

 

The items of a passover meal are not up for speculation.

Seder Table

(Assemble around table -- don't eat yet.) All recline around the SEDER table, because reclining around the table was a sign of a free man. Everything on the table has a significance.

On the SEDER plate there is:

• Hard boiled egg - symbol of the suffering and oppression in Egypt. Everything else in boiling water becomes soft or disintegrates. But an egg becomes hard, like the Israelites. The more it is boiled, the harder it becomes. An egg also symbolizes New Life.
  
• Roasted shankbone of lamb - reminds them there had to be blood sacrificed to save their lives.
  
• Bitter herbs - horseradish - reminds them they were servants to slavery.
  
• Greens - parsley, celery - symbol of coming of Spring which brings hope.
  
• Salt water - reminds them of the tears they cried in Egypt.
  
• Haroset - nut, apple, cinnamon, wine mixture which has the appearance of straw in remembrance of the mortar used to build the Treasure Cities for Pharaoh. It is symbolic of the hope of freedom that enabled their ancestors to withstand the bitterness of slavery.
  
• Matzah - the unleavened bread that reminds them of the haste with which they left Egypt.

After the drinking of wine and washing of the hands the greens are dipped into the salt water and eaten.

Then the bread on the SEDER plate is broken. Half remains on the plate, half is hidden for the dessert. This is to keep the interest of the children. Children are to find it and keep it till the end of the meal when the leader redeems it in exchange for the promise of gifts. Throughout the service many things are incorporated to keep the interest of the children. The most important thing is the telling of the story of the Exodus to the children.

Nice attitude. I wasn't aware this site was global. What a tiny world.

Stop Global Whining!

However, Im not so concerned with his feelings or beliefs, because they are tainted with the actual reason he has come to these forums. His motives are clear, he is acting on true missionary concerns, that which makes him bring about his point that entirely everyone who uses these pages are in need of his liberating services. He has come to save us from slavery.

 

 

What a convenient presumption for dismissing anything you don't want to and can't addess.

Nor do I care about your cyber-psychology in discerning my motives over HTTP. You are a desperate soul indeed. Such strategy is intellectual and philosophical bankruptcy.

I came into this forum because I had a new interest in chanting. That interest of course has been completely preempted by the attitudes I've encountered by so-called vaisnavas on this site.

not the vapu vani thing again. Yawn. I thought Prabhupada laid that one to rest a long time ago.

EK 4

There are two conceptions of presence--the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal. When we enjoy or relish the vibration of Krsna's teachings in Bhagavad-gita, or when we chant Hare Krsna, we should know that by those vibrations He is immediately present. He is absolute, and because of this His vibration is just as important as His physical presence. WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION. We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master--then we'll feel happy and won't feel separation.

 

Surrender to authority is an integral part of the psychology of authoritarian hierarchy. Hierarchies of power, especially those that purport to be spiritual, are based on a hierarchy of value where the leader is considered better, purer, or essentially different. Next comes the heir-apparent or inner circle. This creates separation between those at different levels, and also between the group as a whole and those outside the hierarchy. Surrendering to a guru thus involves surrendering to a hierarchical mode of relating that has within it dominance and submission.

People are especially vulnerable to charismatic leaders during times of crisis or major life change. Most often those who enter into this kind of authoritarian group are having problems bringing meaning, human connection, and good feelings into their lives, all of which become instantly available upon joining. What they also gain is a sense of power, usually greater than any they previously had. Although seemingly relinquishing their power, they actually trade what little personal power they had to piggyback on the guru's power. Occasionally people who did have power elsewhere forsake their old lives to become disciples, largely because their previous successes were unsatisfying, Interestingly, these people usually end up in the guru's inner circle. The higher up one is in the organization, the more one's power and even livelihood are hooked into it and the guru. This makes it very difficult not to accept, rationalize, or deny any incongruent, greedy, or corrupt behavior on the part of the guru or the organization as a whole.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Yer not going to try to discuss this thread anymore?

I have better things to do than sort out the logical tangles of such a discussion.

The fact is even if vaisnavas could convince me that Christianity was some bogus made up religion (which would take some doing), it wouldn't advance G Vaisnavism one iota.

My whole purpose in posting to this forum, is that I was caught in an impossible dilemna- I was attracted to chanting and horrified by the diksa guru process.

After discussing with these 'elevated' vaisnavas I decided I would be better off continuing with my Christian faith and forget about chanting.

I have studied the G Vaisnava religion for years. Read Caitanya Caritamrta, read the first two Cantos of the Srimad Bhagavatam. Listened to numerous lectures, (some by Prabuhpada) and have talked one on one with initiated disciples.

These are my sources. Diksa is a process that binds you to another person for eternity. Whatever the diksa guru demands you must do.

There is nothing esoteric about this. What better definition for such a relationship but slavery.

Now if I don't know something, if I am such an idiot, the appropriate response from a vaisnava is to instruct, not to resort to name-calling.

Any idiot can do that.

You have no idea of what you are talking about. Maybe you should just go back to more familiar environs. Im sure they will love to hear your thesis on "diksa", but you sound like a real idiot here among those who actually have a grasp on the initiation process.

You are to be applauded for your good work. This is the essence of religion. To help the helpless and suffering.

Jesus was an Old Testament Jew. Judaism doesn't legislate vegetarianism.

The Gospels recount his Passover or sader meal (the Last Supper).

One of the items on that menu is lamb.

Let's not forget that even in Vedic culture animals were sacrificed and eaten.

On Jesus eating fish as far as I know there is only one referrence to Jesus eating fish in the Bible and that was after the resurrection when he appeared to his disciples and they thought he was some kind of ghost and he picked up a piece of whatever they were eating and ate it to prove to them the form he was appearing as was different from that of a ghost. The Bible says he ate fish at that point and it may have been as the disciples were fishing at the time. One bite...one time is all I have ever seen but these christian meateaters make it sound like he was roasting lambs everyday.

 

He angered the Jewish temple priests to such an extent that they demanded he be crucified by driving those that were selling animals for sacrifice out of the temple. That was the last straw for those fanatic religious demons.

 

At some point in one's spiritual progression from one life to the next the individual MUST develop a sense of compassion and mercy towards other living beings irregardless of one's professed path.

 

Animal killing for food is savage and barbaric.