cbrahma

Prabhupada's instructions to the world had been.

“At the end of his lecture Prabhupada said, ‘So if you will just follow these four regulative principles and chant sixteen rounds, then you will go back to home, back to Godhead. I guarantee it.’ He paused and looked around at all of us. Then he said again, ‘I guarantee it.’” (Dina Bandhu dasa

There is no mention of other processes such as arcana, offering foodstuffs, getting diska etc... Processes which I find are rife with so many rules that they stopped me as a result of all the anxiety they caused.

So if I can take him at his word, I find that good news indeed, because that's what I'm doing now.

hare krishna prabhus/matajis,

 

but then wen i see all this my heart starts crying.

 

thank you very much

your servant

hari bol

So does mine. But because it is such an offense to the Spiritual Master it must be spoken of. Hiding does not help. Something needs to be done.

There is a group of vaishnavas called Alvars of which I know very little except they approach Krsna directly. Many think that Mira is an incarnation of Radharani. This is not so with Gaudiya Vaishnavas who insist on approaching Krsna through his devotees.

How do Gaudiya Vaishnavas consider her?

Does Sri Caitanyadeva say this, or is it devotional interpretation?

It is "magic" because it is the prescription of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His satisfaction brings about magic on the path of bhajana.

 

More: http://wiki.gaudiyakutir.com/64_rounds

Nobody said they label the absolute Truth. I previously cited from Buddhist sources

Another quote from a Buddhist source

What kind of absolute would it be which changed like the ordinary things of the world ? Being immutable, the absolute is forever unmoved, pure, eternal, still and serene. This is, in fact, a common description of the absolute in all Mahayana forms of Buddhism. However, Fa-tsang next says something which not only seems to contradict this statement but which also is very unusual in Buddhism; he says that moved by certain conditions, this pure, unmoved eternal Reality changes and appears as the universe of phenomenal objects. However, like the gold which has become the ring, the immutable absolute remains the immutable absolute. Here the picture is apparently one of the emanation of the concrete universe from an immutable absolute with the result that things are a mixture of the absolute and the phenomenal.

 

http://www.nembutsu.info/absolute2.htm

So there is a concept of absolute. No doubt the quest ends in a state which is close to the Vedic concept of moskha. That is NOT the goal of the Gaudiya Vaishnava. The devotee seeks Prema Bhakti, pure unalloyed love of Krsna. He/She is content with nothing more or less than unalloyed service.

It is a theistic personalist goal, unlike the Buddhist who can barely be described as theist.

II think it's foolish to presume that the Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, etc. go to different destinations, or have different goals in mind. . The thing is, the Truth that they're all pursuing is the same, it's just the methodologies and descriptions that differ.

I said that entities without nervous systems are still conscious and might have other senses. Made no simplistic equation between feeling and consciousness.

Since when is Feeling= Consciousness?

 

A yogi does not feel anything when his body gets immolated in fire. Are you saying there is no "consciousness" there?

Exactly. Being vegetarian doesn't amount to much in itself.

Ravana was a vegetarian. So was Gandhi. Dalai Lama eats meat. Point?

I guess mushrooms aren't satvic? I made a cashew nut loaf with a layer of mushrooms. Made my own tomato sauce from scratch with Roma tomatoes and fresh basil and mustard seeds.

Since it appears that the GBC has gone rogue, appointing gurus left and right without scriptural or AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada's authorization, the only option must be that it should be dismantled ASAP.

How does one go about doing this in a top-down organization like ISKCON. Who has the power to do so? There has to be a way.

Feeling physical pain in the way we feel it requires a nervous system. But who's to say that consciousness, even primitive consciousness is limited to only those kind of senses.

I don't buy it. Consciousness is a tricky matter. You say it has to do with "feelings" , but there is no justification for that. If I say no, there is no justification for that either.

 

So what am I saying? I am saying you are wrong.

If you are to consider cash flow as incurring karmic responsibility, then you shouldn't buy vegetables or soy-products at the market, because at the corporate-holding level all the food industry enterprises such as slaughterhouses, farms etc are often owned by the same entity. Buying soya-milk by the same logic is supporting cow slaughter.

Pregnancy of the cow is necessary for increased milk production. It is not the pregancy, however, that kills the calf. That is a byproduct of the dairy industry not a direct consequence. In fact all agri-business is karmically corrupt in this way. You cannot be sure that the dollars you spend on soya beans are not going to pay for milk production. It is all connected, as indeed is the web of karma.

I think the connection between offering milk to Krsna and killing calves is a bit of leap otherwise you indict a huge contingent of lacto-vegetarian vaisnava devotees.

I have plenty of b-12. I take sublingual tablets of methyl-cobalamine, 5000 mcg. each at least 4 times a week. The methyl form of cobalimine is best becasuse it has been shown to protect nerve cells. It strengthens the myelin sheath.

 

I would much prefer taking an extremly cheap supplement over killing calves anyway.

 

We discussed b-12 in the health section a couple months ago.

The whole site is littered with examples from so many bloggers. I wonder how anybody ever makes any progress. Or manages to discuss anything besides the weather.

Oh Bhakta Don's quiotic nature again causes him to fall into Vaishnava aparadh?

The same word may have different meanings in different contexts.

Nothing in these disputed quotes has to do with not knowing what the word means. It means many things.

The literalists are the mytholigizers.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, “Yes, I felt happiness [pleasure].” So he was released. “Here is consent.” And that’s a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, “Yes, I felt some pleasure.” “Now, there is consent.” So he was released.... [Morning Walk, May 11. 1975]

 

Like I said earlier, Prabhupada knew precisely what the word "rape" means. He was a very articulate writer. I dont have an issue with him. I have an issue with his mythologists who actually do him more disservice than people like me who try to present an honest picture of the day.

 

Thanks for the quote BDM. I'll go easy on you next time

Nori Muster

April 1999

The American Family Foundation (AFF) will host their 1999 Conference, "Cults, Psychological Manipulation & Society" in St. Paul, Minnesota. One of the featured panel discussions will address the question whether cults can change and will specifically focus on the case of ISKCON. The panel consists of Anuttama dasa, head of ISKCON Communications; Radha dasi, a dedicated follower; and two seemingly friendly observers--Michael Langone, director of AFF and Joseph Kelly a thought reform consultant closely tied to AFF.

It seems that the people on the panel will say ISKCON has changed for the better. I would like to offer a dissenting voice--since I was once a member of ISKCON, spent ten years in that organization and then devoted another decade studying and researching the group to produce books on the subject.

Originally there was a time when ISKCON was innocent. It truly represented a branch of Hinduism in a pure way. Many ISKCON members feel nostalgia for those days and their ideal is to make ISKCON just like it was when Srila Prabhupada their guru was alive and actively leading the group. If ISKCON were to change for the better, this would mean reviving that innocence.

However, in order to see what that would entail and whether ISKCON has successfully accomplished that ideal, it would be helpful to look at the years of lost innocence and see what went wrong.

Leadership Beginning in the early 1970s, certain greedy and cruel men came into power within ISKCON.

If the organization now really wants to change for the better, it should remove all illegitimate gurus, Governing Body Commission (GBC) board members, temple presidents, sannyasis (priests), and zone managers. There are at least 20-30 illegitimate leaders that still remain firmly in place within its hierarchy.

Fundraising Beginning in the early 1970s, ISKCON sent its members into airports, malls and other public venues to sell books. After a short time, the leaders told them to dress in Western clothing and obscure their identity, until after they receive the money. In many temples, members were asked to lie about their identity and deny being Hare Krishnas, in order to get donations.

ISKCON leaders accepted tainted money from drug dealers and other illegal sources.

If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to solicit donations in a legitimate way and refuse all tainted money.

Recruitment Throughout its history ISKCON has used irresponsible recruitment methods. The most "cult-like" aspect is that they encouraged interested people to move in and dedicate their whole lives to the organization, often giving up careers, and cutting ties with former friends and family. Legitimate religions promote living and working in the world, maintaining strong family ties and friendships. Many parents feel they lost their children to ISKCON.

In order for things to change for the better, ISKCON needs to stop exercising such extreme control over their members' lives.

Alienated Former Members Over the years ISKCON's board of directors has made many enemies, especially among former members. For example, they excommunicated a vocal critic named Puranjana (Tim Lee), after he accused one of the gurus of taking LSD--speaking about this violated their rules. Pranjana has now it seems become a lifelong enemy of ISKCON.

Another vocal critic named Sulochan (Steve Bryant) was excommunicated after he accused one of the gurus of selling drugs and running a prostitution ring. Sulochan was then murdered by a Krishna hitman shortly after his excommunication.

Some of these former members have dedicated their lives to toppling the current ISKCON leadership through lawsuits or public opinion. ISKCON leaders keep them away by claiming that these onetime Krishna devotees have certain ideological differences that are dangerous. In reality, their differences are very minor, but these disagreements have resulted in beatings, death threats, and even murder.

If things are to change for the better, ISKCON needs to acknowledge these former members and make peace with them. This would be an obvious sign that things have actually changed for the better.

Child Abuse I am currently writing a book about the rampant abuse of the first generation of Krishna kids, born in the late 1960s to early 1970s. These people deserve justice. It has been almost ten years since this abuse became known. But it took until 1996 for the GBC to acknowledge the problem. In 1998 the organization made this abuse known publicly in press releases to The New York Times and other news agencies. However, in all those years, they have only raised about $30,000 to compensate the victims and ISKCON has substantial resources. They could locate almost all of the child abuse victims by using class photos, but that will probably never happen.

The attitude of ISKCON's leadership so far seems to be keeping the victims quiet by offering them checks for $500. They appear to be trying to find out who the abusers are, but do little other than giving the men a slap on the wrist. This is humiliation upon humiliation for the victims. This serious issue may ultimately have to be sorted out in a courtroom. ISKCON has done a lot of talking, but has actually taken little action--with the exception of Anuttama and his wife Rukmini, who donated significant amounts of their own money to the cause.

Author's Note: I wrote this article a year before attorneys filed Children of ISKCON v ISKCON in a federal court in Texas. The problem is now in the hands of attorneys. For feedback and media coverage on the lawsuit, link to: http://surrealist.org/gurukula/lawsuit.html.

Spousal Abuse For a long time, ISKCON has had leaders who beat their wives and advocate wife beating among the other married men. Also, ISKCON arranged marriages between minor-aged girls and often abusive men. The girls' complaints were generally ignored.

In order for ISKCON to really change for the better, they must come out in the open about their spousal abuse problem, remove abusers from official positions, and compensate the victims.

Other Abuse

In order for ISKCON to really change, all these attitudes must change and then it could really become a be a better organization.

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/muster_nori_cancultschangecaseofiskcon.htm

Are you saying that all these critical 'vaisnavas' are gurus? That's preposterous. What adds insult to injury is the impersonal attitude of these so-called vaisnavas (from now on I will use the acronym SCV to designate pseudo-devotees) is that fault-finding is the only attention they give most people.

Please accept my respectful Obeisances, All glories to Srila Prabhupada, All glories to Iskcon guru Vrinda

 

 

 

The Gurus first duty according to Sastra is to chastise his disciple, we should not consider this Vaisnava Aparadha! The Guru must find fault. That fault finding is done out of love and compassion for the disciple and the Guru is hoping to help his Sisya to get free from these impediments that block Him from serving the Lord properley.

 

What distinguishes Vaisnava Aparadha from other fault findings and criticism is the underlying mood. If there is envy in the fault finding, belittling of another devotee, hate, etc then that is Vaisnava Aparadha.

 

Vaisnava aparadha is so devastating that a topmost Pure devotee can fall down if his diciples commit Vaisnava Aparadha.

As a poet and writer, I understand words have several meanings in different contexts and with different authors.

The previous posts have pointed out that 'rape' has an archaic sense of 'being carried off', which fits perfectly with the context. I had no problem with it.

Unless familiar with SP's style and his limitations vis-a-vis English language, a person should be startled by this statement. Reading this statement, most people would conclude that:

 

* SP is glorifying rape

* SP alleges that women are often attracted to the best rapist in town.

 

Sorry, but this is how most people feel when they read SP's conclusion: a woman likes a man who's expert at rape. It's impossible to rationalize this, which is what you're doing. Instead, why can't we just agree that SP has made mistakes and leave it at that? He wasn't god. He was human at the end of the day.

The issue with a non-dairy diet is the B12 vitamin. There is a serious disease called pernicious anemia which is caused by a deficiency in that vitamin.

Protein for me is no problem. Lentils contain 49 gms of protein per cup! I make vegetarian chili with lentils. I eat large amounts of raw seeds and nuts. Pumpkin seeds have close to 40gms per cup.

 

I mostly live on smoothies as they are quick and easy. I just ad my evening meal which tonight was a Rice Drink and peanut butter smoothy. Lots of peanut butter. In about 3 hours I will have another smoothy-apple cherry juice and 1 cup raw pumpkin seeds

 

Nutritional yeast is another good source as a supplement. It is 50% protein and is loaded with b-vits.

 

Then there is soy protein and rice powder protein powders which a great for smoothies.

 

1lb frozen fava beans contain 35 gms of protein.

 

Animal products are not needed for protein.

Shouldn't we be practical in our practices? Consistency is the most important. Once we increase we should maintain. Prabhupada only required 16 rounds. I'm not sure why 64 is 'magic'. Of course that's how many rounds he chanted because that was his vow. The magic is the bhakti the dedication to maintain a certain standard, isn't it?

These are nice suggestions. As far as argumentation is concerned, that can be a little misleading. Jesus argued. Prabhupada argued and certainly Martin Luther argued. Then again the word 'quarrel' has a connotation of arguing pointlessly. It has to do with fight style (getting personal and nasty) and motive (wanting to do one better).

We are culturally conditioned to associate being good with being 'nice'.

The saints and prophets weren't always nice.

I've seen self-effulgent personalities on rare occasions. Interestingly , they were at both extremes of age, very senior or very young.

What they had in common is they were personal and treated everyone as though they were their most intimate friend. When they see you they smile.

Now I haven't seen very much of that at all in religious settings, Christian or Vaisnava. Aloofness, impersonality seems to be the norm.

Since you are Lutheran, then why not develop your own internal rubric of 95 items which indicate spiritual excellence and nail it to the door of your heart?

 

Here is a possibile criteria to help you determine who is a sadhu/ saintly person that might apply to an internal checklist that you yourself develop:

 

2 Timothy 2

"A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient..."

 

Maybe someone else hates it, but I feel it has universal appeal. I feel that we are fortunate to live in the information superhighway post-modern world, for we learn about and then mix and match the very best of each tradition in the privacy of our own homes and hearts without the fear of being burned at the stake. Well some of us anyway, during this brief moment in time at least.

 

I myself appreciate Martin Luther's contributions and idea that we have a direct connection to the Divine that does not require a priestly intermediary.

This echos an idea found in the Shaivite tradition: "There is only one thing that God cannot do, He cannot take Himself out of you and your heart."

 

At the same time, if I knew that someone like Saint Francis of Assisi was hanging out in my neighborhood now and then distributing alms to the poor, I might want to get to know him also. And I'd probably get to know a very interesting side of him if we met while distributing alms to the poor together.

 

So to meet saints go do what the saints do. Aum Tat Sat.

This is news to me. I thought meat was a more efficient food source, which is why carnivores eat less often. That makes sense because it's harder to get food that runs away from you and has to be killed. Herbivores eat all day long (graze).

Plants don't have feelings. They don't have a nervous system. Their reactions to light and other such things are due to light induced chemical mechanisms that trigger them to spontaneously grow in one direction vs another.

 

Some plants have evolved in such a way that if you eat them, you are helping them. Vegetables have seeds, animals eat fruits and vegetables and can't digest the seeds. The animal moves to another location to do its thing where it evacuates the seeds and this helps disperse seeds.

 

Is it good to be a vegetarian? Ofcourse it is. The energy that comes from the sun gets lost as you go up the food chain. If you are a herbivore, you eat less and gain more energy. If you are a carnivore you have to eat more to get the same amount of energy.

Prabhupada: This is my proposal. If I have fresh air and free movement and sunshine then I can come back in a year… Then when I am sane man I shall come back to either Mayapur or Vrindavana or Bombay… You have tried doctor, kaviraja, medicine, everything. Everything has failed. Now, suppose I am taking the risk of death, what is wrong?… I will take milk. Milk is available everywhere. If I live, that’s all right. If I don’t live, that doesn’t matter.

Krsna accepts foodstuff offered with love. He says in Gita a fruit flower leaf or water. Don't confuse vaisnava cooking with Indian food. Vaisnava cooking means with love for Krsna.

 

Srila Prabhupada said Indian styles of cooking and dress are not important.

 

And for those of us who are not on the vaisnava level then I will choose ahimsa and the principles of cow protection over Indian cooking with dairy products and the insane violence of commercial milk any day.

There is nothing to argue about. Because Hinduism is too broad a category with too many different concepts of oneness to generalize. Hinduism is not one on the topic. Your christian friend needs to study Indian/Vedic religious sects before making sweeping statements about what they believe.

so does anybody have an appropriate way to counter his argument, i dont want to back away from the discussion.

My understanding is that milk products are a mainstay of vaisnava food offerings. What does one do if one does not own a dairy cow?

http://www.milksucks.com/index2.asp

So it's the tradition that decides who is authority. This means then that one needs prescience and foreknowledge about who knows.

Knowing that checklist, is seems is at least as important a form of knowledge as one would need a sadhu to authorize. We have to know that the tradition has the authority to decide who is authority.

This is what is known as infinite regress.

I disagree with these criteria of course, since traditions have been wrong. The sale of indulgences was a tradition in the Catholic Church so it was not questioned by Catholics until Martin Luther decided (prompted by the Holy Spirit) to appeal solely to Scripture.

We have the same issue with Scripture. How do we know which version of scripture is authoritative? Well the guru, the sadhu tell us. And the scriptures tell us how to identify guru and sadhu and round it goes.

The only way to break the vicious circle is by an appeal to a direct inner sense, a still small voice in the heart. The 'ah ah' which has the ring of Truth. There is direct vision as when sunlight appears we can see.

I believe this is what is meant by 'self-effulgence'. It represents the upper limit on appeal to authority.

If I am not mistaken, I believe that each religious tradition has a checklist of criteria. Such as in Christianity there are the Ten Commandments and all of the things that allegedly Christ said, such as in the New Testament there are over two thousand admonitions by Christ to help the poor, zero admonitions to give capital gains tax to the rich, and zero admonitions to invade Iraq.

 

Then you have to see if over a long period of time they are actually doing what they say they are doing. For example if you are a Christian then you can google "Preachers Scandals" and in Wikipedia it has a list of Televangelists

that claimed God was personally talking to them and then what the result of God personally talking to them was: having Rolex, Swiss bank account, air-conditioned dog house for their dogs, Rolls Royce, and what have you.

 

Then compare and contrast that with Jesus' 2000 admonitions to help the poor. Rinse and repeat and do the same if you are Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism they have the list of "Qualities of A Devotee"; in Tibetan Buddhism in The Teachings of Gampopa they have

"The Eleven Marks of A Holy Person".

 

That's why I like to compare and contrast religions and see what the best of the best is; cuz maybe my birth religion is getting off track, so compare multi-culturally what is considered the topmost standard in various traditions. Then if the one that I think is all of that seems to be getting a little bit funky, then it is nice to keep in touch with what "the best of the best" or the highest standard of excellence is vis-a-vis the nice people who seems to have a clue aka saints.

 

In many religions the sants were/are everyday people that just lived a normal life. I don't recall any religion saying that how you dress is a criteria; in the film The Devil Wears Prada how one dressed seemed to be important. So if how a person looks externally is really important to you, then maybe you can become a fashionista! And if your criteria for if a person is highly evolved or not is if the person claims to be highly evolved or not, then I have a bridge you may be interested in purchasing in Brooklyn.

 

I mean how do we know anything? How do you know who is a good dentist or a person to date? Do some background reading as to what are the qualities of a good dentist or spouse are first. Then google the potential prospect, hire a private detective, and see what their references are. Read their website and you be the judge. And see what they do in secret for ten years if you are looking for a spiritual mentor is what the Dalai Lama advises; spy on them!