cbrahma

There are also differences in both 'siddhanta' and practice between Praghupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. Real sampradaya siddhanta is something that crystalizes over generations.

There are significant differences? What are they? These are considered Sampradaya acaryas because of their siksa. It is their knowledge that is being transmitted in the sampradaya. Why should it take generations to ... crystallize. In the Vedic system which honors the process of descent rather than ascent, that doesn't make sense

I do not compare them, or judge them which one is better. They are all part of the same gift from Sri Guru. I just try to learn from them.

There are some critical differences in the siddhanta unfortunately, especially on the subject of physically present guru. I haven't found any need to move 'laterally' from Prabhupada. I have read Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode Thakur, however. These are what Rocana dasa calls 'Sampradaya acaryas'

 

 

Good point however, it is advisable to have a stand out instructing living Guru, 'a person' above all others who links you with loving effection, like a son or daughter with their father, to the Parampara.

 

 

 

 

Also you cannot get that advanced 'personalism' just from reading books, in fact, if one is sincere, that sincerity will attract a Spiritual Master to guide one.

 

 

 

 

 

If we have firm faith that Krsna is in our hearts, then why not believe He will help us climb out of this 'stagnated' mundane 'chewing the chewed vomit of words', over and over and over again in this delusional cyber-space extention of the illusionary material creation we call the internet?

 

 

It would be nice to be able to find one as good as Prabhupada.

That's a fact. He wouldn't have anyone to argue with if he stopped reading posts from his perceived "enemies."

Of course that's his fevered fantasy. I'm only responding to your surprising agreements. If he is so transcendental he would just ignore me rather than waste his time. But he's dedicated a lot of effort trying (trying is the operative term here) to discredit me. I guess I should be flattered that I'm worth that much attention. BTW he thinks Gopal batta is a not a good example of a Vaisnava. Now if I made that kind of judgment, I would be accused of being offensive. If I were that obsessed with emnity I would research all his posts so I could make some kind of global character judgment and satisfy myself that he is always wrong and I am always right. If I were as much of a troll as he would like to make me out to be, I would never put anybody on ignore...uh prabhu. There are a number of members here who love to engage in flame wars. I'm not one of them.

That about sums it up.

Well you're easily convinced about this global statement - over the years apparently. You have been tracking all my posts - goodness, how scary. And you think triple dot's behavior appropriate and reasonable?

Everybody debates what they believe is right. And everybody has been in disagreement? Hardly.

There is no record of corruption like racketerring, drug-dealing and child molestation in the GM, while it happened on many occasions in Iskcon. I am not saying Prabhupada supported the corrupt activities but he certainly kept people responsible for them in power.

I didn't say there was. I only know that they supported zonal gurus that were so involved.

" Because I am in touch with those who do"

 

That is no replacement for being in the Dham itself, that is BS and will not purify you in any way. Stop pretending you are some advanced devotee who knows Srila Prabupada better than anyone else (you don't) and you might cure the empty hole inside you.

 

Again all you want is to debate and get a rush, but in doing so you are digging yourself into a deep hole of aparadha.

If you think I'm just wanting to be offensive then stop arguing.

We were talking about charlatans. They can be found everywhere.

You are pretending to be an advanced devotee. Not I.

You are not the only one who knows Prabhupada. I know several Prabhupada disciples who are not so elitist and arrogant as yourself.

Consider yourself ignored and of course you'll respond even after I've said that.

YOU are the charlatan cbrahma who has tried to highjack Prabupadas words and USE then to fit your agenda here to attack others' date=' you are seething with sadhu ninda and aparadha, and lost in your own speculation.[/quote']

You just pound away with the same objections with NO cogent arguments and no support other than your claims to being a superior Vaisnava and my disagreement as disturbed and crazy.

Give up.

"As far as sanga is concerned, India is just as full of charletans and the West."

 

How do you know, you never even been to India or Braja and met with any advanced Vaishnavas, yet from your computer room you condemn them, how idiotic and uninformed and yes I hate this term but 'PUFFED UP"

HA!

Because I am in touch with those who do. Besides a lot of them come here to peddle their nonsense. It's not a matter of geography but consciousness.

Stop foaming at the mouth....

 

All you want to do is fight and fill some empty hole in you dude, you know knowing of Gaudiya Siddhanta or Prabupada and what he taught, you are some kooky hybrid

.

You're going over the top to fight. Desperate character assasination attempts that I haven't even remotely had to try. Your style is that of a rabid dog grabbing at anything you can find. I speak on topic from a consistent position. Unless, you can prove otherwise on topic, don't bother.

cbrahma,

 

I did not have to dig deep at all, you waffle so much a child could figure you out.

All you want to do is be KING OF THE HILL! and be right. But guess what, you are as about WRONG as anyone I have ever met regarding Gaudiya Vaishnavism, it's laughable, you never been to India, never had sadhu sanga of advanced vaishnavas at all, yet you think by reading letters you know more than anyone, your a numbskull.

 

You know nothing of Gaudiya Siddhanta, Srila Prabupada, and think that Sadhu Sanga is serving under Rameswar and Gopal Bhatta ha ha ha !

 

Please stop pretending you are some expert, you are a bitter angry guy with an agenda and that is to FEED FEED FEED some empty hole in you and try and make everyone as upset as you are inside..

 

These are very old quotes - so you did go back in history for much of it. And you still don't understand the basic principles of debate. Such as not basing an argument on attacking the person - 'ad hominem'. As far as sanga is concerned, India is just as full of charletans and the West. Are you supposed to be an example of an advanced Vaisnava?

Waffling? Between what points? Perhaps from a simple-minded sectarian viewpoint. I haven't contradicted myself in any of these quotes. My expertise is based on quoting Prabhupada and the sastras. What's your excuse? As for angry, if you arent' totally hostile , you sure make a good imitation. I don't need to launch a smear campaign to prove you totally off the wall.

Prabhupada also supported quite a few extremely questionable characters (like these two) for many years. He also knew that a lot of the money coming in to develop various projects in India were raised using questionable means. Over the years various devotees were 'inspired' by the 'yukta vairagya' slogans to engage in all kinds of nonsense. If you want to blame the GM gurus for supporting crooks pretending to be Vaishnavas, do not close your eyes on what was happening in Iskcon earlier.

 

These Vaishnavas tried to spread Lord Caitanya's mission using low-born people, and in the process a lot of undesirable things have happened. They took the risks. The risk means: there is a chance of something bad to happen. And it did. Still, the end result was overwhelmingly positive and thus taking the risks was justified.

I see. So this is the 'you too' argument. Because allegedgly Prabhupad did it, then it's ok for the GM gurus to do it.

But it remains to be proven whether Prabhupada actually supported the corruption like racketerring, drug-dealing and child molestation. He dismantled the GBC at one point because it was getting derailed.

Srila Prabhupada quoted this Bengali saying:

sach bale tomare latha jhuta jagat mohaye

"If one speaks the truth, he is beaten with sticks, but if someone tells lies, everyone is enchanted."

 

I want to point out that this cbrahma is really a very confused and disturbed fellow, he does not care about Srila Prabupadas mission or what is true Gaudiya Siddhanta. He only cares about winning debates what ever the subject may be and bothering other people, he is in the fight for the thrill and rush he gets from it and to get what is called narcissistic supply.

 

This can be evidenced by looking at his posts from the past, sometimes he is a Christian and is fighting like hell over that, insulting others saying it is more personal than KC or Hinduism, at other times he even criticizies devotees for worshipping a stone image of God! (not very much in line with what Prabupada taught or Gaudiya Siddhanta itself hey?)

 

He has waffled so much in his belief here on this forum that that I'm sure he doesn't know what the hell he believes but regardless he wants to be RIGHT at any cost and to bust your balls (begger knows) in the mean time.

 

His pattern is clearly of a narcisstic who is isolated and doesn't have a lot of contact with others, but wages war with every post he makes which is an opportunity to bother and upset others (not to promote what is truth at all)

 

He is simply using the forums and these debates to garnish Narcissitic Supply for himself, (he feeds off it) and is really quite pathological.

 

Be warned, I have the quotes from him to show you all what I say here is fact...

 

Here's a few:

 

 

 

 

 

 

why I stopped chanting <HR style="COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

I used to do the basic sadhanna - 16 rounds,the morning program, taking only prasadam , harer nama reading the sastras etc...

I stopped because everything was complication on top of complication.

Just the chanting was a mine field of possible offenses, not to mention making prasadam and all the other activities.

Why should a path towards God's mercy be so fraught with hundreds of hoops to jump through.

Just the anxiety of trying to 'get it right', makes the workaday world look like a walk in the park.

And then there's the guru initiation thing...the deepest briar patch of complications and dangers.

 

**

Well that pretty much exhonerates all the religionist hubris in dealing with those they consider fools for not being 'in the know', not in their fold.

That exclusivity is just ego on a collectivist scale.

I consider Jesus to be my guru, as much as Prabhupada, but that doesn't mean I accept everything self-proclaimed disciples do or say. That would really make me a fool.

 

**

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity is simpler <HR style="COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

<HR style="COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

How do you know? What they make of the guru in their imagination doesn't change the fact that they're human.

 

 

** Well my Guru is Jesus. He doesn't ask for prostration. Doesn't watch for ritual offenses. Forbids me to 'surrender' to any human as 'teacher/father' (guru). If the guru is merely supposed to lead, to enlighten, what's up with the surrender. Why should I jump when he barks?

 

**

Quote:

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And why is idolatry bad?

I can't prostrate to a statue of Krishna?

 

 

 

 

 

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->You can do whatever your conscience dictates. I will not do it. The first commandment forbids idolatry.

 

Quote:

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Your hatred for ISKON blinds you cbrahma.

 

 

 

 

 

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->My 'hatred' for ISKCON is based on knowledge and experience, not blindness. I more moved, however, by my love of Jesus on which you are not an authority.

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Simply because it states in the Bible that Jesus rose the dead does not mean he actually did it or actually even lived. You are discrediting an entire religion because of one book - and that is the mark of a fundamentalist (which is a bad thing, by the way).

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Actually the Bible isn't just one book. It is a compilation of many many texts over several centuries. Bhagavad Gita is also one book.

 

Likewise, just because the SB says that MahaVisnu laid down in the ocean breathed out universes doesn't mean he did. If you believe it you are a fundamentalist, of course.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

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Can it also be said that simply because Frodo took the ring to Mt.Doom that it is also true?

 

You're acting on blind faith, not reason. This gets you nowhere, however comforting it may be to derail another's religion.

 

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->No blinder than you for accepting that a statue is God.

 

In your desperate attempt to smear character , in true beggar style, you had to dig deep and long for this stuff. You are also quoting out of context, which gives a false impression. I am arguing against anti-Christian bigots in much of this and using a style of argument called 'argument ad absurdum' which obviously has gone over your head.

The character evaluation that I have no belief system is absurd. I have had years of practicing sadhana-bhakti whether you like it or not.

There are folks like Kulapavana that question statements made by Prabhupad and others who don't take Bhagavatam literally. That doesn't mean they don't have any beliefs. What confused, atrocious and desperate reasoning.

People like you blast Sridhara Maharaja for supporting the 'zonal acharya' idea, but refuse to acknowledge any notion of responsibility on the Prabhupada's side. The zonal secretary system he introduced in 1970 was morphed into a 'zonal initiating representative', and later into the 'zonal acharya' system.

 

As I said earlier, this idea of 'zonalism' was not a problem. The problem was the very poor execution of that idea. Now you have the travelling circus of gurus, who never stay long enough in one place to actually take on the role of a 'nurturing guru' who actually spends time with his disciples on daily basis. They imitate Prabhupada in this, but the real reason is avoiding responsibility. When you are everywhere, you are nowhere. I wish that would stop, and the gurus settled down in their little zone, for which they would actually be responsible. That is what Prabhupada wanted: go somewhere, preach, start a temple, inspire people to join, be a guru to these people. What is so hard to understand?

 

Was Sridhara Maharaja wrong in supporting the system Prabhupada envisioned? What was he supposed to do? Tell them that the idea of huge vyasasans was inapropriate? That having daily guru-puja in front of the Deities was bogus? Huh? Is that what he should have said? Think about it for a second. Sridhara Maharaja was trying to support the system that was already in place.

I'm not interested in undermining anybody. I am not 'like' anybody in particular since I don't belong to any group. I just know the zonal acarya system was an unauthorized debacle and will not blame Prabhupada for it.

I don't trust the GM, or I should say the ex-GM of course, because they were around to do some damage control. They supported Kirtananda and Bhavanada in all of their corrupt dealings. This is historically available fact.

I don't know anything more about these gurus, nor do I care to speculate beyond that.

Maybe we experience that at some point. That is due to our less than glorious pasts in he material world. Even that is a beginning. Everyone starts the race from somewhere but nobody starts at the finish line.

Oh to find a real Vaisnava, among the priests.

Sincerely seeking higher association will guaruntee one finds for Krishna will surely see to it even if He has to come Himself in guru form to teach you Bhagavad-gita. He will do this for just one sincere soul. Or He may arrage your early death and tranfer you to aother planet where such association is to be found.

 

In the meantime , of course, one is isolated or chained to a group of pseudo-Vaisnavas or material kanisthas?

Don't get the point of copying all these arguments. They are easily read from their own thread. If you think that together they make some kind of point, then you need to show that.

I am saying that idiots like you, who deify Prabhupada and bash the leaders he appointed, have a childishly naive view of reality.

 

In case you missed it blinded by hate, here is what I said: "That is just a childishly naive notion, which ignores the historical fact that the majority of these people were actually good and sincere devotees, at least initially."

 

In other words, I'm saying that Prabhupada appointed mostly good people, and their downward slide has much more complex nature than simpletons like you would ever admit.

 

Sure, some of his choices, like Bhavananda, Kirtanananda or Hansadutta, are quite puzzling, as there were plenty of early indications that these guys were bogus, still the majority of people he picked were quite solid choices.

 

To say that the leaders appointed by Prabhupada turned bad right after Prabhupada's disappearance is completely bogus, and ignores historical facts. They were emulating the grandioso guru ways that Prabhupada himself adopted, because who else were they going to emulate? The humble GM sannyasis and gurus? Perish the thought! After all, they were told these GM people were not the example to follow.

 

Most of the 11 turned bad gradually, to a large extent due to the Vaishnava aparadhas they were comitting, due to accepting money from dishonest sources, and due to insisting on having absolute power in their zones.

I didnt' say anything about when they turned bad. The whole idea was bad regardless of when they revealed their true colors.

How is questioning the zonal guru fiasco so questonably authorized defying Prabhupada? Nothing could be more twisted. It is obvious why this authorization has become a religious dogma with you. You need to justify imperfect unqualified gurus, not to mention the GM complicity and their subsequent so-called 'guru reform'.

Not really, you just missed my point completely, and on purpose too. Point is that these 11 were not just ordinary disciples. These were first leaders hand picked by Prabhupada, and later the people he himself chose to carry on with initiating new people and be 'initiating gurus' of one sort or another - that part is indisputable. Can you judge the guru by the appointments he makes? It is not quite the same as 'judging gurus by their disciples', is it?

 

Those who condemn these 11 as 'bogus frauds' from the beginning simply say that Prabhupada made a very poor choice by selecting such worthless disciples to lead his mission. That is just a childishly naive notion, which ignores the historical fact that the majority of these people were actually good and sincere devotees, at least initially.

You flatter yourself to think I needed to miss a point that isn't well taken.

If you are not judging gurus by their disciples, then you are judging gurus by who they put in charge. Well the GM gurus ratified and promoted these gurus - so they are just as implicated. It is all of a piece. You can't single out Prabhupada in your blasphemous agenda. Besides you still beg the question whether he clearly did promote them.

You can also be equally patient and wise by doing exactly the same, and it won't cost you a dime!

Well , if you insist, but your misrepresentations on the behalf of Hindu religiosity are more easily misleading than say, svu.

Whose purification? The gurus or the GBC guru-appointers?

I put to you that it is first the process of appointment that needs reform.

Certainly the gurus themselves have not reached the platform of uttama-adhikari or there would be no need of reform.

So once they have acheived such purity, it will be obvious, as it was in Prabhupada's case and there will be no need of an appointment/authorization process. GBC doesn't want that of course, because that would decentralize their power.

Poor Theist, I don't from where he (Theist) gathers so much patience:).

 

It's true, it's indeed difficult to understand the Lord and the Seers of the Lord.

Theist is indeed patient. He is also wise. He put Kula on ignore.

the idea of guru reformation is an oxymoron. If a guru is need of reform he is not a guru.

I find it both hilarious and sad that all these devotees who deify Prabhupada have such unequivocal criticism towards the men he himself chose as the leaders of his society, and entrusted them with giving diksa to both current and future devotees in Iskcon. Unbelievable!

Ahhh. So we judge the guru by his disciples. Poor NM and Sridhar Maharaj.

Of course your hidden premise ,that Prabhupada intended these men to be gurus on their own behalf, is a lie.

BTW, it makes more sense to deify (treat as good as God) a pure devotee, than a formal ritual (formal diksa).

 

To the best of my ability to understand, when I listen to the so-called appointment tape, the impression I get is that Srila Prabhupada is purposely and intentionally evasive and ambiguous. He refused to be pinned down. He doesn't seem to want to discuss these issues that are being presented by his disciples. His answers to their questions appear purposely terse and open to interpretation. He answered accurately, generally, and ambiguously. This stood out for me when I listened to the tape:

<CENTER>"He becomes the disciple of my disciple, just see. His grand disciple.

</CENTER>Some of His statements seem to support the continuation of the already existing program of "stand-in representatives", yet in the same conversation Srila Prabhupada says something that seems to support the theory that his disciples will take their own disciples as regular gurus. What is a regular guru?

 

Everyone agrees that during His lila, Srila Prabhupada was consistently clear when He wanted to make his wishes known. He would go to extremes to make sure that all His disciples understood exactly what he wanted them to understand. Srila Prabhupada could not be fooled, deceived, hoodwinked, or cajoled. Srila Prabhupada was completely aware of everyone's true intentions, and could accurately diagnosis the level of advancement of His disciples, regardless of their profile or administrative position. Everyone's nature was transparent to Srila Prabhupada. As an external representative of Paramatma, Srila Prabhupada was kept fully informed of what was present within the heart, regardless of how an individual may appear to others.

Srila Prabhupada could easily have said: "You eleven (with names) are appointed by me to become genuine diksa gurus and give genuine initiation -- although you have not attained the highest realization, you have become completely fixed-up and trained up in my service." But he never clearly spelled anything like this out. It would have been simple for Him to have said something very concrete like this -- but he didn't. Srila Prabhupada could have said: "All of you, my governing body representatives, you are qualified to recognize and select who will be initiating disciples after I leave."

Rocana dasa