Puru Das, das anudas

I don,t request privacy but only freedom from a cyber stalker like you. Do you realize this has been going on since way back in the late ninties on VNN. That is 8 years plus of you posting the same quotes and never hearing the quotes that are offered in return.

Cyber stalker indeed! I rarely post at all. I would also point out that for 8 years I have consistantly quoted from shastra and the words of our acaryas to prove any point made. I POST under my own name. I AM NOT HIDING FROM ANYONE . On theother hand for more than 8 years you have refused to use anything but a pen name. Someone told me you are Maitreya from Seattle. Whoever you are, believe what you will but don't expect immunity when you spout apasiddhanta in a public forum like this, which invites discussions. Srila Krsna das Kaviraj and His Dvine Grace advise us in this regard:

TEXT 117

SYNONYMS

siddhanta--conclusion; baliya--considering; citte--in the mind; na kara--do not be; alasa--lazy; iha--this; ha-ite--from; krsne--in Lord Krsna; lage--becomes fixed; su-drdha--very firm; manasa--the mind.

TRANSLATION

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

PURPORT

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gita, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary, historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one's own benefit as well as the benefit of one's audience.

When Brahma described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a maha-bhagavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 22.65) we learn:

"A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence." Srila Rupa Gosvami, in his Upadesamrta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous acaryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir asru-pulakayoh sator api yad dhrdayam na vikriyeta tad asma-saram iti kanisthadhikarinam eva asru-pulakadi-mattve 'pi asma-sara-hrdayataya nindaisa. "Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned." The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions.”

Cc. Adi 2. 117

From what cauldron of misconception you boil up so many false conclusions is certainly a mystery.

You made one seeming friendly post to me on this thread and I made the mistake of responding which lead to another barage of copy and paste. My bad. I realize you must have a OCD and this is the form in which you express it. .

OCD? Enlighten me please with your analysis!!!

If you had kept to SBSST’s article there would have been no discussion only appreciation.

But you insist on throwing salk into sweet rice . Don’t be a cyber sissy and stop complaining like a wus. If the pan is too hot, get out. Leave cyberspace and find a briar patch for your sadhana and bhajana instead.

Once again with your condemnation of cut and paste from our authorities, you prove your aversion to guru, sadhu and shastra when the sastra doesn’t suit your personal misconception. Your problem not mine.

KC is not cafateria religion, pick this and reject that. Neither is it like ordering dinner from a menu in a (vegetarian ) chinese restaurant; Take one from column a, two from b, reject this or that. NEVER!!! As it is, as the acaryas have given it, as it will always be.

You used to post the tar baby parable alot. A good one for sure. You Puru are my tar baby.

Thank you for the compliment.I be chantin in the briar patch of Nabadwipa Parikrama

http://bvml.org/SBTP/SNM/index.html

while you be talking to yoself here on audarya, the forum from hell.

Why do you persist in addressing me with this one issue ?

Because Srila Promod Puri Gosvami Maharaja said that "rtvk" means the death of our sampradaya. Because when you continue to polute cyberspace with your mental speculations you cannot expect silence from everyone on line. Because you always "draw first blood", as Rambo declared, and because everyone interested in Krsna Consciousness should be encouraged to hear from a sad guru, take initiation from such a guru and make spiritual progress.

Puru? Why by such a fanatic? Live your life and I will live mine. OK? Got it?

Call the dog bad and then hang him. Fanatic means no philosophy I never say anything on line that I can't prove with a quote from shastra or a reference from the vanih of our acaryas. I certainly got it, guru nistha that is, and have no intentions of ever giving it up. You want privacy then stay off line and do your bhajana privately. You chose to express yourself in a public forum, then expect antithesis to your thesis. Bas!!!

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Siksa is necessary in all circumstances. Your term "living siksa guru" is one I also have trouble with. Guru is always "living" rather embodied in an earthly frame or not is immaterial. If you have his commentaries you have access to his association.

 

Reading the commentaries and books left by our acaryas is NOT identical with taking their physical vapuh association. Minimizing the importance of being in the physical proximity and hearing directly from the pure devotee is simply rtvk madness. Otherwise why didn't His Divine Grace just send his books around the world 17 times and stay in Vrdnavana doing his bhajana?

Because hearing from him directly was and is the most essential element for his followers. Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja very lucidly explained that you do not get "sadhu sanga" from any tape recorder. It is not all one, and rtvk fanatacism is a useless mental speculation that turns Krsna Consciousness into a sectarian fanatacism with tilaka. Bas!!!

I would vehemenately disagree here. I take the position that it is only the vani of the devotee that has the power to initiate disciples. Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot intiate anyone because being just a vehicle IT HAS NO INITIATIVE OF IT'S OWN. Having no intiative, becasue that is a quality of the soul proper, how then could IT ever initiate another living being?

Frankly I could care less what "your position" is, since it is so far out of line with guru, sadhu and shastra that the length of the devitation can't be measured. The rest of this statement

". . . I take the position that it is only the vani of the devotee that has the power to initiate disciples. Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot intiate anyone because being just a vehicle IT HAS NO INITIATIVE OF IT'S OWN. Having no intiative, becasue that is a quality of the soul proper, how then could IT ever initiate another living being."

defies logic, proper use of the English language and spits in the face of gaudiya siddhanta. It shows that your mind is something we all have to simply ignore and neglect. "

"Surely the body of the spiritual master cannot initiate anyone. . ."

From which cauldron of mental speculation have you drawn this spurious conclusion?. This statement should be deleted from cyber space so it stops polluting the subtle either.

Anyway tal fruit discussions go nowhere and it is time to be reminded of the famous Uncle Remus story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar baby.

http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm

There is no point is discussing guru tattva with anyone who makes up his own tattva and siddhanta by the dictates of his furtive imagination. Better to hide out inthe briar patch of harinama and sadhu sanga.

Regardless of what anyone "thinks" about who can hear the Supersoul, Srila Prabhupada has written very clearly in the purport to

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4 Ch.29 text 50

". . . He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service. . . ."

Read it in context here:

TEXT 50

harir deha-bhrtam atma

svayam prakrtir isvarah

tat-pada-mulam saranam

yatah ksemo nrnam iha

SYNONYMS

harih--Sri Hari; deha-bhrtam--of living entities who have accepted material bodies; atma--the Supersoul; svayam--Himself; prakrtih--material nature; isvarah--the controller; tat--His; pada-mulam--feet; saranam--shelter; yatah--from which; ksemah--good fortune; nrnam--of men; iha--in this world.

TRANSLATION

Sri Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the Supersoul and guide of all living entities who have accepted material bodies within this world. He is the supreme controller of all material activities in material nature. He is also our best friend, and everyone should take shelter at His lotus feet. In doing so, one's life will be auspicious.

PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gita (18.61) it is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati: "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna." The living entity is within the body, and the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is also there. He is called antaryami and caitya-guru. As Lord Krsna states in Bhagavad-gita (15.15), He is controlling everything.

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

matah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."

Everything is being directed by the Supersoul within the body; therefore the better part of valor is to take His direction and be happy. To take His directions, one needs to be a devotee, and this is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (10.10):

tesam satata-yuktanam

bhajatam priti-purvakam

dadami buddhi-yogam tam

yena mam upayanti te

"To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me."

Although the Supersoul is in everyone's heart (isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati), He talks only to the pure devotees who constantly engage in His service. In Caitanya-bhagavata (Antya 3.45) it is said:

tahare se bali vidya, mantra, adhyayana

krsna-pada-padme ye karaye sthira mana

"One who has fixed his mind on the lotus feet of Krsna is to be understood as having the best education and as having studied all the Vedas." There are also other appropriate quotes in Caitanya-bhagavata:

sei se vidyara phala janiha niscaya

krsna-pada-padme yadi citta-vrtti raya

"The perfect result of an education is the fixing of one's mind on the lotus feet of Krsna." (Adi 13.178)

'dig-vijaya kariba,'----vidyara karya nahe

isvare bhajile, sei vidya 'satya' kahe

"Conquering the world by means of material education is not desirable. If one engages himself in devotional service, his education is perfected." (Adi 13.173)

pade kene loka----krsna-bhakti janibare

se yadi nahila, tabe vidyaya ki kare

"The purpose of education is to understand Krsna and His devotional service. If one does not do so, then education is false." (Adi 12.49)

tahare se bali dharma, karma sadacara

isvare se priti janme sammata sabara

"Being cultured, educated, very active and religious means developing natural love for Krsna." (Antya 3.44) Everyone has dormant love for Krsna, and by culture and education that has to be awakened. That is the purpose of this Krsna consciousness movement. Once Lord Caitanya asked Sri Ramananda Raya what the best part of education was, and Ramananda Raya replied that the best part of education is advancement in Krsna

SB 4. 29.50

Also regardless of what anyone thinks about the vapuh of the acarya, here is what the acarya says about it:

Hare Krsna Puru,

Nice to hear you are in the Dhama. Yes I appreciated the article as much as I am presently able. Please don't think this signals a change of position for me as it doesn't. I have always known this to be true. Acaryas must be on the same page even though due to time and circumstance they may employ different methods. I still maintain that to understand the past guru's writing through the present acarya we still need the grace of the Caitya-guru to connect all the dots for us.

Absent such an embodied acarya's presence in our lives Caitya-guru remains closer than close ready to guide us home if we so desire. In such a case He would use the written vani left by His devotee to explain the science to us.

 

Greetings and thank you for appreciating the writing of SBSST.

There is a purport in the Cc. in which HIs Divine Grace has written that only an uttama adhikari Vaisnava can be in direct contact with "caitya guru", and another verse and purport in which Srila Krsnadas Kaviraj and Srila Prabhupada explain how the Supersoul manifests as Sri Guru to be accessible to the bhadda jivas, in their conditioned state, before their present senses. When I have the quotes I will post them.

To state yet again I absolutely and uncompromising reject the idea of someone being "self-taught" in any field let alone transcendental science. What beethoven didn't learn from a contemporary teacher he surely learned from one in his past life.

No one can sit ALONE with his materially molded mind read some books even scripture and come to a proper understanding. That has never been an issue.

Correct. It is an issue however with many fanatical rtvk proponents who think that living siksa guru is unecessary. Srila Prabhupada writes differently in Cc. Adi 1.35-47 in several purports.

However when reading the commentary of the pure devotee as to the meaning of the scripture if we are inwardly open with an ounce of humility Caitya guru will illumine the presence of both Himself and His devotee within those books.

"The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda."

Serving the person of the pure devotee means to serve his instructions. That holds true rather he is wearing a so-called physical form or not. The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal.

Once agan soft rtvk confusion between the significance of the vanih and vapuh rears its ugly head in your statement.

You assert:

". . . The transcendental devotee IS non-different from his transcendental instructions. If one hears those instruction in the form of a body or in the form of a book is irrelevant. Both are equal."

They may be qualitatively equal, but the vanih of the acarya cannot initiate disciples, the vanih cannot have equal effect on the heart and mind of the sisya unless he is fully surrendered and has total realization on these points. Otherwise we can read the tikhas of any Rupanuga Vaisnava, e.g. Srila Rupa Gosvami and conclude that since He is non different than his instrucitons we are associating with him directly. In one sense we are and in the other we are not because we are still bhadda jivas who require the vapuh association of pure devotees. This is Srila Prabhupada's actual vanih with regard to associating with pure devotees. Here are only two statements from his books that proves this point:

(1)". . . He engaged his body in associating with the pure devotees of the Lord. [When you associate with someone you have to sit down together, eat together, etc.—and in this way the touch of your body with his body is inevitable. Ambarisha Mahäräja made his association only with pure devotees and did not allow his body to be touched by anyone else.] He engaged his nostrils in smelling the flowers and tulasi offered to Krsna, and he engaged his tongue in tasting Krsna prasäda [food prepared specifically for offering to the Lord, the remnants of which are taken by the devotees]. . . . The idea is that we should follow in the footsteps of great devotees. If we are unable to execute all the different items of devotional service, we must try to execute at least one of them, as exemplified by previous äcäryas. . . ."

Nectar of Devotion

Chapter 14 Devotional Qualifications

and

(2) As attachment can be invoked by the association of pure devotees, so attachment can also be extinguished by offenses committed at the lotus feet of pure devotees. To be more clear, by the association of pure devotees attachment for Krsna can be aroused, but if one commits offenses at the lotus feet of a devotee, one’s shadow attachment or parä attachment can be extinguished. This extinguishing is like the waning of the full moon, which gradually decreases and at last becomes dark. One should therefore be very careful while associating with pure devotees to guard against committing an offense at their lotus feet."

NOD

Chapter 18

Character of One in Ecstatic Love

So how do you commt an offence to the vanih?, unless you destroy a book or give less than full attention to any recording. Clearly HDG uses the word association to mean being in the physical proximity of a pure devotee's manifested <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>nara</st1:place></st1:City> lila form etc.etc.etc. We shoiuld not to read into the word "association" any new"rtvk" definition of what that word means. They confused "henceforward" and now they confuse "association." No surprise.

Rtvk English to suit the rtvk misconceptions. There are many,many other quotes from HIDG regarding association of pure devotees. You can examine them here: .

108 Srila Prabhupada Quotes on the Importance of Having the Association of Pure Devotees

http://bvml.org/contemporary/108spq.htm

However to actually understand these references you must add 2+2=4 AND NOT 5 with regard to what words like association mean. And we don’t dispute the qualitative oneness of the vanih and vapuh. That is not the issue with rtvk internet diatribe.

The rtvk dictionary wants to re write the essential meaning of words like associate, approach etc. to mean reading the written record or recorded video record of a departed acarya. Such self deception is apasiddhanta and only a mental speculation and NOT the actual vanih of His Divine Grace or any other Guadiya Acarya.

Srila Promode Puri Gosvami Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/index.htm

(one of srila Prabhupad’s godbrothers) has said:

“. . . The famous words of the great souls tell us: vidhi marge braja-bhave paite nahi sakti. One cannot attain spontaneous devotion by mere practice of devotion (sadhana). The actual gift of spontaneous devotion is awarded only by the intense greed to receive it, coupled with the blessings of proximity to a genuine teacher who is resident of the holy dhama. . .”

from:

http://bvml.org/SBPPG/pai.htm

from a speech given on the The most auspicious event of the 124th Birthday Anniversary of SBSST.

The central question remains of what is the motive of the one "hearing". Paramatma will fulfill that motive.

I am sure your pilgrimage will be fruitfull Puru. As for me it's just too hot and austere there. Like they say "if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen". <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/smile.gif" src="file:///D:\DOCUME~1\Badalji\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>But it is nice to be reminded from those that are there.

Haribol

 

Greed (laulyam) for Vaisnava Association is not something that can be given to anyone by an other conditioned soul. It comes by sukrti, krpa and causeless mercy.

.

. . .Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead. . . .

 

I will post a quote from Cc. as soon as I find it to corroborate this pont.

ys

pda

Antya-lila Ch.7

<WBR> TEXT 53

bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani'

bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani

SYNONYMS

bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words.

TRANSLATION

Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service.

PURPORT

Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system.

........><!--D(["mb","\n

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\n......................... Conversation with Srila Prabhupada..

\n....................... ..May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia.

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\n........... .Madhudvisa:. “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”............. Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”.............. Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”.............. Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain................................<WBR>..... From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1............................. Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

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Conversation with Srila Prabhupada

May 21, 1975 Melbourne Australia

Madhudvisa: “… in the case of your books, is it possible to become a devotee without actually having personal association with you? Just by reading your books?”

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, it is not that you have to associate with the author. But one who knows, if you cannot understand you have to take lesson from him. Not necessarily that you contact with the author always. … One who knows the subject matter, he can explain.”

Madhudvisa: “But can your, would your purports, would that serve as explanation besides…”

Srila Prabhupada: “ No, no, anyone who knows the subject matter, he will be able to explain. <WBR>

From Sri Krsna Kathamrita Vol. 2 No.1

Also in Prabhpada conversations book #13

What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. . .

corroboration from His Divine Grace regarding the importance of sadhu sanga:

TEXT 71

TEXT

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

SYNONYMS

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

TRANSLATION

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

HDGACBSP

Cc. Madhya lila 22.71

. . .Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead. . . .

I will post a quote from Cc. as soon as I find it to corroborate this pont.

ys

pda

". . . Those who repeat the teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat.

Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.

Take for example the Name "Krsna". Every reader of Thakura Bhaktivinoda's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krsna by the process conveyed by the words . . . "

http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

Thank you theist. When I saw title of thread I immediately thought of this essay, and am happy to see you appreciate it. I am in vraja writing from a cyber cafe near Bankibihari Temple. I will travel to Nabadwipa later this month to attend the Gaura Mandala Parikrama with Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja. Parikrama is Feb. 25-Mqarch 3rd.

ys

pda

". . . The first type of unsteady bhakti is utsaha-mayi. Utsaha means enthusiasm. When the student starts his studies, the teacher will encourage him by saying, "Oh, you are so good, so good. You are doing very nicely." After a few days the student thinks, "Oh, now I'm such a big scholar. I know everything." He is now so enthusiastic. Previously he was afraid to go to school, and now he takes his books and runs to school with great enthusiasm. In the same way, when the aspiring sadhaka first comes to the path of bhakti, he approaches Gurudeva and accepts harinama. Gurudeva says, "Oh, you cannot chant 64 rounds? No problem. Just do as many as you want. If somehow you can do 16 rounds, your material attachments will be destroyed and very quickly you will attain love for the lotus feet of Krsna." The disciple then becomes very enthusiastic and happy with his chanting and other duties, and he thinks, "Yes, I have started to do bhajana."

We are just like this. Even in our present stage we think, "I'm really doing bhajana now – fully." Somebody may be chanting one lakh of harinama (100,000 names or 64 rounds), but when the Guru instructs or chastises him, pointing his finger and telling him what he is doing wrong, his eyes open up in surprise. Gurudeva tells him, "Oh, you have so many desires and so much anger in your heart. You should follow the first verse of Upadesamrta­ – vaco vegam manasa krodha vegam. You should control your mind and your senses, your tongue, belly and genitals. And you should follow the second sloka – atyaharah prayasas ca. Don't over-eat, don't over-collect and don't over-endeavor for material things."

Then the disciple thinks, "Oh my God, I'm not doing any bhajana at all. I haven't even started," He understands his position for some time, but later he thinks, "I am a great scholar, so I don't need to go to Guru. I will just do bhajana on my own. There is no need to go to Guru." And he takes off. In this way, the new devotee is enthusiastic in the beginning, and later he becomes discouraged and his enthusiasm weakens. In the stage of bhajana-kriya, this is the type of unsteady bhakti called utsaha-mayi. . ."

excerpted from:

http://bvml.org/SBNM/lectures/20051021_tay.html

[A class from the Kartika lecture-course on Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura 's Madhurya Kadambini on October 21, 2005 in Vrndavana, India. The following class was given during the 2005 Vraja-mandala parikrama. On that day the devotees had visited the holy pastime place called Maan-sarovara, and Srila Narayana Maharaja gave hari-katha there. Then in the evening, at about 5:00 pm, he gave his regular class at Gopinatha Bhavan on the shore of Yamuna . In that class, attended by about 1,000 devotees from all over the world, he discussed more about Maan sarovara, and he also continued his lecture course on Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's book, "Madhurya Kadambini." :]

Dear Devarsirat Prabhu,

Greetings and dandavats. The heart medication I take daily also causes "dry mouth" and I simply drink a lot of water. I found that gatorade helps a lot as well. Try it. Srila Prabhupada was pretty clear on 16 well chanted audible rounds as a minimum for us. Read this verse and purport. Stay well and be in touch.

ys

pda

TEXT 23

TEXT

prabhu kahe,----'kon vyadhi, kaha ta' nirnaya?'

tenho kahe,----'sankhya-kirtana na puraya'

SYNONYMS

prabhu kahe--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said; kon vyadhi--what disease; kaha ta' nirnaya--can you ascertain; tenho kahe--he said; sankhya-kirtana--fixed amount of chanting; na puraya--has not become complete.

TRANSLATION

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu further inquired from Haridasa, "Can you ascertain what your disease is?" Haridasa Thakura replied, "My disease is that I cannot complete my rounds."

PURPORT

If one cannot complete the fixed number of rounds he is assigned, he should be considered to be in a diseased condition of spiritual life. Srila Haridasa Thakura is called namacarya. Of course, we cannot imitate Haridasa Thakura, but everyone must chant a prescribed number of rounds. In our Krsna consciousness movement we have fixed sixteen rounds as the minimum so that the Westerners will not feel burdened. These sixteen rounds must be chanted, and chanted loudly, so that one can hear himself and others.

cc. Antya lila Ch. 11 txt 23

". . . In the science of Bhakti yoga as presented by Srila Prabhupada, questioning of authority is demanded. Srila Prabhupada criticized blind faith more severely that blind rejection. He gives us scientific knowledge for us to AVOID the pitfalls that some have not avoided, i.e. accepting bogus demons as spiritual masters. . . . "

Here is a very wonderful verse and purport from Bg. 10.4-5 in which His Divine Grace wrote about blind following, truth, the power of thought and many other enlightening conceptions:

<CENTER>Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute</CENTER>

buddhih--intelligence; jnanam--knowledge; asammohah--freedom from doubt; ksama--forgiveness; satyam--truthfulness; damah--control of the senses; samah--control of the mind; sukham--happiness; duhkham--distress; bhavah--birth; abhavah--death; bhayam--fear; ca--and; abhayam--without fear; eva--also; ca--and; ahimsa--nonviolence; samata--equilibrium; tustih--satisfaction; tapah--penance; danam--charity; yasah--fame; ayasah--infamy; bhavanti--become; bhavah--natures; bhutanam--of living entities; mattah--from Me; eva--certainly; prthak-vidhah--differently arranged.

Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, self-control and calmness, pleasure and pain, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy are created by Me alone.

The different qualities of living entities, be they good or bad, are all created by Krsna, and they are described here.

Intelligence refers to the power of analyzing things in proper perspective, and knowledge refers to understanding what is spirit and what is matter. Ordinary knowledge obtained by a university education pertains only to matter, and it is not accepted here as knowledge. Knowledge means knowing the distinction between spirit and matter. In modern education there is no knowledge about the spirit; they are simply taking care of the material elements and bodily needs. Therefore academic knowledge is not complete.

Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.

Self-control means that the senses should not be used for unnecessary personal enjoyment. There is no prohibition against meeting the proper needs of the senses, but unnecessary sense enjoyment is detrimental for spiritual advancement. Therefore the senses should be restrained from unnecessary use. Similarly, the mind should not indulge in unnecessary thoughts; that is called samah, or calmness. Nor should one spend one's time pondering over earning money. That is a misuse of the thinking power. The mind should be used to understand the prime necessity of human beings, and that should be presented authoritatively. The power of thought should be developed in association with persons who are authorities in the scriptures, saintly persons and spiritual masters and those whose thinking is highly developed. Sukham, pleasure or happiness, should always be in that which is favorable for the cultivation of the spiritual knowledge of Krsna consciousness. And similarly, that which is painful or which causes distress is that which is unfavorable for the cultivation of Krsna consciousness. Anything favorable for the development of Krsna consciousness should be accepted, and anything unfavorable should be rejected.

Bhava, birth, should be understood to refer to the body. As far as the soul is concerned, there is neither birth nor death; that we have discussed in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Birth and death apply to one's embodiment in the material world. Fear is due to worrying about the future. A person in Krsna consciousness has no fear because by his activities he is sure to go back to the spiritual sky, back home, back to Godhead. Therefore his future is very bright. Others, however, do not know what their future holds; they have no knowledge of what the next life holds. So they are therefore in constant anxiety. If we want to get free from anxiety, then the best course is to understand Krsna and be situated always in Krsna consciousness. In that way we will be free from all fear. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that fear is caused by our absorption in the illusory energy, but those who are free from the illusory energy, those who are confident that they are not the material body, that they are spiritual parts of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are therefore engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Godhead, have nothing to fear. Their future is very bright. This fear is a condition of persons who are not in Krsna consciousness. Bhayam, fearlessness, is only possible for one in Krsna consciousness.

Ahimsa, nonviolence, means that one should not do anything which will put others into misery or confusion. Material activities that are promised by so many politicians, sociologists, philanthropists, etc., do not produce very good results because the politicians and philanthropists have no transcendental vision; they do not know what is actually beneficial for human society. Ahimsa means that people should be trained in such a way that the full utilization of the human body can be achieved. The human body is meant for spiritual realization, so any movement or any commissions which do not further that end commit violence on the human body. That which furthers the future spiritual happiness of the people in general is called nonviolence.

Samata, equanimity, refers to freedom from attachment and aversion. To be very much attached or to be very much detached is not the best. This material world should be accepted without attachment or aversion. Similarly, that which is favorable for prosecuting Krsna consciousness should be accepted; that which is unfavorable should be rejected. That is called samata, equanimity. A person in Krsna consciousness has nothing to reject and nothing to accept unless it is useful in the prosecution of Krsna consciousness.

Tusti, satisfaction, means that one should not be eager to gather more and more material goods by unnecessary activity. One should be satisfied with whatever is obtained by the grace of the Supreme Lord; that is called satisfaction. Tapas means austerity or penance. There are many rules and definitions in the Vedas which apply here, like rising early in the morning and taking a bath. Sometimes it is very troublesome to rise early in the morning, but whatever voluntary trouble one may suffer in this way is called penance. Similarly, there are prescriptions for fasting on certain days of the month. One may not be inclined to practice such fasting, but because of his determination to make advancement in the science of Krsna consciousness, he should accept such bodily troubles which are recommended. However, one should not fast unnecessarily or against Vedic injunctions. One should not fast for some political purpose; that is described in Bhagavad-gita as fasting in ignorance, and anything done in ignorance or passion does not lead to spiritual advancement. Everything done in the mode of goodness does advance one, however, and fasting done in terms of the Vedic injunctions enriches one in spiritual knowledge.

As far as charity is concerned, one should give fifty percent of his earnings to some good cause. And what is a good cause? It is that which is conducted in terms of Krsna consciousness. That is not only a good cause, but it is the best cause. Because Krsna is good, His cause is also good. Thus charity should be given to a person who is engaged in Krsna consciousness. According to Vedic literature, it is enjoined that charity should be given to the brahmanas. This practice is still followed, although not very nicely in terms of the Vedic injunction. But still the injunction is that charity should be given to the brahmanas. Why? Because they are engaged in higher cultivation of spiritual knowledge. A brahmana is supposed to devote his whole life to understanding Brahman. A brahma-jana is one who knows Brahman; he is called a brahmana. Thus charity is offered to the brahmanas because since they are always engaged in higher spiritual service, they have no time to earn their livelihood. In the Vedic literature, charity is also to be awarded to the renouncer of life, the sannyasi. The sannyasis beg from door to door, not for money but for missionary purposes. The system is that they go from door to door to awaken the householders from the slumber of ignorance. Because the householders are engaged in family affairs and have forgotten their actual purpose in life--awakening their Krsna consciousness--it is the business of the sannyasis to go as beggars to the householders and encourage them to be Krsna conscious. As it is said in the Vedas, one should awake and achieve what is due him in this human form of life. This knowledge and method is distributed by the sannyasis; hence charity is to be given to the renouncer of life, to the brahmanas, and similar good causes, not to any whimsical cause.

Yasah, fame, should be according to Lord Caitanya, who said that a man is famous when he is known as a great devotee. That is real fame. If one has become a great man in Krsna consciousness and it is known, then he is truly famous. One who does not have such fame is infamous.

All these qualities are manifest throughout the universe in human society and in the society of the demigods. There are many forms of humanity on other planets, and these qualities are there. Now, for one who wants to advance in Krsna consciousness, Krsna creates all these qualities, but the person develops them himself from within. One who engages in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord develops all the good qualities, as arranged by the Supreme Lord.

Of whatever we find, good or bad, the origin is Krsna. Nothing can manifest in this material world which is not in Krsna. That is knowledge; although we know that things are differently situated, we should realize that everything flows from Krsna

Allow me to also observe that in the l970's in Brooklyn NY at 439 Henry St. Srila Prabhupada gave darshan to different groups of devotees. He met with the african american contingency, mad eup of devotees from the east coast. Lokamangala prabhu was being sent out to collect for the temple in a clown costume and he had reservations about dong it. So he asked His Divine Grace, "what should we do if we have some question about what the authorities are asking us do to." Srila Prabhupada responded, "Authorities!!! Srila Rupa and Srila Sanatana are our authorities. We are following them."

The entire darshan is on 1/2 " black and white sony videotape that I turned over to Nrsmhananda at ITV and can be viewed any time.

ys

pda

Here is the verse and purport I mentioned earlier regarding blind following.

<CENTER>Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute</CENTER>

buddhih--intelligence; jnanam--knowledge; asammohah--freedom from doubt; ksama--forgiveness; satyam--truthfulness; damah--control of the senses; samah--control of the mind; sukham--happiness; duhkham--distress; bhavah--birth; abhavah--death; bhayam--fear; ca--and; abhayam--without fear; eva--also; ca--and; ahimsa--nonviolence; samata--equilibrium; tustih--satisfaction; tapah--penance; danam--charity; yasah--fame; ayasah--infamy; bhavanti--become; bhavah--natures; bhutanam--of living entities; mattah--from Me; eva--certainly; prthak-vidhah--differently arranged.

Intelligence, knowledge, freedom from doubt and delusion, forgiveness, truthfulness, self-control and calmness, pleasure and pain, birth, death, fear, fearlessness, nonviolence, equanimity, satisfaction, austerity, charity, fame and infamy are created by Me alone.

The different qualities of living entities, be they good or bad, are all created by Krsna, and they are described here.

Intelligence refers to the power of analyzing things in proper perspective, and knowledge refers to understanding what is spirit and what is matter. Ordinary knowledge obtained by a university education pertains only to matter, and it is not accepted here as knowledge. Knowledge means knowing the distinction between spirit and matter. In modern education there is no knowledge about the spirit; they are simply taking care of the material elements and bodily needs. Therefore academic knowledge is not complete.

Asammoha, freedom from doubt and delusion, can be achieved when one is not hesitant and when he understands the transcendental philosophy. Slowly but surely he becomes free from bewilderment. Nothing should be accepted blindly; everything should be accepted with care and with caution. Ksama, forgiveness, should be practiced, and one should excuse the minor offenses of others. Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth.

Self-control means that the senses should not be used for unnecessary personal enjoyment. There is no prohibition against meeting the proper needs of the senses, but unnecessary sense enjoyment is detrimental for spiritual advancement. Therefore the senses should be restrained from unnecessary use. Similarly, the mind should not indulge in unnecessary thoughts; that is called samah, or calmness. Nor should one spend one's time pondering over earning money. That is a misuse of the thinking power. The mind should be used to understand the prime necessity of human beings, and that should be presented authoritatively. The power of thought should be developed in association with persons who are authorities in the scriptures, saintly persons and spiritual masters and those whose thinking is highly developed. Sukham, pleasure or happiness, should always be in that which is favorable for the cultivation of the spiritual knowledge of Krsna consciousness. And similarly, that which is painful or which causes distress is that which is unfavorable for the cultivation of Krsna consciousness. Anything favorable for the development of Krsna consciousness should be accepted, and anything unfavorable should be rejected.

Bhava, birth, should be understood to refer to the body. As far as the soul is concerned, there is neither birth nor death; that we have discussed in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Birth and death apply to one's embodiment in the material world. Fear is due to worrying about the future. A person in Krsna consciousness has no fear because by his activities he is sure to go back to the spiritual sky, back home, back to Godhead. Therefore his future is very bright. Others, however, do not know what their future holds; they have no knowledge of what the next life holds. So they are therefore in constant anxiety. If we want to get free from anxiety, then the best course is to understand Krsna and be situated always in Krsna consciousness. In that way we will be free from all fear. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that fear is caused by our absorption in the illusory energy, but those who are free from the illusory energy, those who are confident that they are not the material body, that they are spiritual parts of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are therefore engaged in the transcendental service of the Supreme Godhead, have nothing to fear. Their future is very bright. This fear is a condition of persons who are not in Krsna consciousness. Bhayam, fearlessness, is only possible for one in Krsna consciousness.

Ahimsa, nonviolence, means that one should not do anything which will put others into misery or confusion. Material activities that are promised by so many politicians, sociologists, philanthropists, etc., do not produce very good results because the politicians and philanthropists have no transcendental vision; they do not know what is actually beneficial for human society. Ahimsa means that people should be trained in such a way that the full utilization of the human body can be achieved. The human body is meant for spiritual realization, so any movement or any commissions which do not further that end commit violence on the human body. That which furthers the future spiritual happiness of the people in general is called nonviolence.

Samata, equanimity, refers to freedom from attachment and aversion. To be very much attached or to be very much detached is not the best. This material world should be accepted without attachment or aversion. Similarly, that which is favorable for prosecuting Krsna consciousness should be accepted; that which is unfavorable should be rejected. That is called samata, equanimity. A person in Krsna consciousness has nothing to reject and nothing to accept unless it is useful in the prosecution of Krsna consciousness.

Tusti, satisfaction, means that one should not be eager to gather more and more material goods by unnecessary activity. One should be satisfied with whatever is obtained by the grace of the Supreme Lord; that is called satisfaction. Tapas means austerity or penance. There are many rules and definitions in the Vedas which apply here, like rising early in the morning and taking a bath. Sometimes it is very troublesome to rise early in the morning, but whatever voluntary trouble one may suffer in this way is called penance. Similarly, there are prescriptions for fasting on certain days of the month. One may not be inclined to practice such fasting, but because of his determination to make advancement in the science of Krsna consciousness, he should accept such bodily troubles which are recommended. However, one should not fast unnecessarily or against Vedic injunctions. One should not fast for some political purpose; that is described in Bhagavad-gita as fasting in ignorance, and anything done in ignorance or passion does not lead to spiritual advancement. Everything done in the mode of goodness does advance one, however, and fasting done in terms of the Vedic injunctions enriches one in spiritual knowledge.

As far as charity is concerned, one should give fifty percent of his earnings to some good cause. And what is a good cause? It is that which is conducted in terms of Krsna consciousness. That is not only a good cause, but it is the best cause. Because Krsna is good, His cause is also good. Thus charity should be given to a person who is engaged in Krsna consciousness. According to Vedic literature, it is enjoined that charity should be given to the brahmanas. This practice is still followed, although not very nicely in terms of the Vedic injunction. But still the injunction is that charity should be given to the brahmanas. Why? Because they are engaged in higher cultivation of spiritual knowledge. A brahmana is supposed to devote his whole life to understanding Brahman. A brahma-jana is one who knows Brahman; he is called a brahmana. Thus charity is offered to the brahmanas because since they are always engaged in higher spiritual service, they have no time to earn their livelihood. In the Vedic literature, charity is also to be awarded to the renouncer of life, the sannyasi. The sannyasis beg from door to door, not for money but for missionary purposes. The system is that they go from door to door to awaken the householders from the slumber of ignorance. Because the householders are engaged in family affairs and have forgotten their actual purpose in life--awakening their Krsna consciousness--it is the business of the sannyasis to go as beggars to the householders and encourage them to be Krsna conscious. As it is said in the Vedas, one should awake and achieve what is due him in this human form of life. This knowledge and method is distributed by the sannyasis; hence charity is to be given to the renouncer of life, to the brahmanas, and similar good causes, not to any whimsical cause.

Yasah, fame, should be according to Lord Caitanya, who said that a man is famous when he is known as a great devotee. That is real fame. If one has become a great man in Krsna consciousness and it is known, then he is truly famous. One who does not have such fame is infamous.

All these qualities are manifest throughout the universe in human society and in the society of the demigods. There are many forms of humanity on other planets, and these qualities are there. Now, for one who wants to advance in Krsna consciousness, Krsna creates all these qualities, but the person develops them himself from within. One who engages in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord develops all the good qualities, as arranged by the Supreme Lord.

Of whatever we find, good or bad, the origin is Krsna. Nothing can manifest in this material world which is not in Krsna. That is knowledge; although we know that things are differently situated, we should realize that everything flows from Krsna.

I abandon the idea of initiation altogether. I am initiated by baptism. I don't need to be enslaved by a human being. The Papacy tried it and failed miserably.

Gour Hari I know someone who may want to buy your house In Govardhana. I am still in India. I will return to braja from delhi on the 28th. I will be in Govardhana on purnima January 3rd. Can you arrange for me to look at it and let me know how much you want for it?

My email is purudas@gmail.com

so, what's it like being controlled by love and affection? is it nice?

I believe that it is called Krsna consciousness, or bhakti. The name of His Divine Grace's summary study of Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti rasamrta sindhu is called the Nectar of Devotion. Real devotional sevice is always joyfully performed.

<CENTER>Chapter 9. The Most Confidential Knowledge</CENTER>

raja-vidya--the king of education; raja-guhyam--the king of confidential knowledge; pavitram--the purest; idam--this; uttamam--transcendental; pratyaksa--directly experienced; avagamam--understood; dharmyam--the principle of religion; su-sukham--very happy; kartum--to execute; avyayam--everlasting.

This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed.

This chapter of Bhagavad-gita is called the king of education because it is the essence of all doctrines and philosophies explained before. There are seven principal philosophers in India: Gautama, Kanada, Kapila, Yajnavalkya, Sandilya, Vaisvanara, and, finally, Vyasadeva, the author of the Vedanta-sutra. So there is no dearth of knowledge in the field of philosophy or transcendental knowledge. Now the Lord says that this Ninth Chapter is the king of all such knowledge, the essence of all knowledge that can be derived from the study of the Vedas and different kinds of philosophy. It is the most confidential because confidential or transcendental knowledge involves understanding the difference between the soul and the body. And the king of all confidential knowledge culminates in devotional service.

Generally, people are not educated in this confidential knowledge; they are educated in external knowledge. As far as ordinary education is concerned, people are involved with so many departments: politics, sociology, physics, chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, engineering, etc. There are so many departments of knowledge all over the world and many huge universities, but there is, unfortunately, no university or educational institution where the science of the spirit soul is instructed. Yet the soul is the most important part of this body; without the presence of the soul, the body has no value. Still people are placing great stress on the bodily necessities of life, not caring for the vital soul.

The Bhagavad-gita, especially from the Second Chapter on, stresses the importance of the soul. In the very beginning, the Lord says that this body is perishable and that the soul is not perishable. That is a confidential part of knowledge: simply knowing that the spirit soul is different from this body and that its nature is immutable, indestructible and eternal. But that gives no positive information about the soul. Sometimes people are under the impression that the soul is different from the body and that when the body is finished, or one is liberated from the body, the soul remains in a void and becomes impersonal. But actually that is not the fact. How can the soul, which is so active within this body, be inactive after being liberated from the body? It is always active. If it is eternal, then it is eternally active, and its activities in the spiritual kingdom are the most confidential part of spiritual knowledge. These activities of the spirit soul are therefore indicated here as constituting the king of all knowledge, the most confidential part of all knowledge.

This knowledge is the purest form of all activities, as is explained in Vedic literature. In the Padma Purana, man's sinful activities have been analyzed and are shown to be the results of sin after sin. Those who are engaged in fruitive activities are entangled in different stages and forms of sinful reactions. For instance, when the seed of a particular tree is sown, the tree does not appear immediately to grow; it takes some time. It is first a small, sprouting plant, then it assumes the form of a tree, then it flowers, bears fruit, and, when it is complete, the flowers and fruits are enjoyed by persons who have sown the seed of the tree. Similarly, a man performs a sinful act, and like a seed it takes time to fructify. There are different stages. The sinful action may have already stopped within the individual, but the results or the fruit of that sinful action are still enjoyed. There are sins which are still in the form of a seed, and there are others which are already fructified and are giving us fruit, which we are enjoying as distress and pain, as explained in the twentieth verse of the Seventh Chapter.

A person who has completely ended the reactions of all sinful activities and who is fully engaged in pious activities, being freed from the duality of this material world, becomes engaged in devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. In other words, those who are actually engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord are already freed from all reactions. For those who are engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all sinful reactions, whether fructified, in the stock, or in the form of a seed, gradually vanish. Therefore the purifying potency of devotional service is very strong, and it is called pavitram uttamam, the purest. Uttamam means transcendental. Tamas means this material world or darkness, and uttamam means that which is transcendental to material activities. Devotional activities are never to be considered material, although sometimes it appears that devotees are engaged just like ordinary men. One who can see and is familiar with devotional service, however, will know that they are not material activities. They are all spiritual and devotional, uncontaminated by the material modes of nature.

It is said that the execution of devotional service is so perfect that one can perceive the results directly. This direct result is actually perceived, and we have practical experience that any person who is chanting the holy names of Krsna (Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare) in course of time feels some transcendental pleasure and very quickly becomes purified of all material contamination. This is actually seen. Furthermore, if one engages not only in hearing but in trying to broadcast the message of devotional activities as well, or if he engages himself in helping the missionary activities of Krsna consciousness, he gradually feels spiritual progress. This advancement in spiritual life does not depend on any kind of previous education or qualification. The method itself is so pure that by simply engaging in it one becomes pure.

In the Vedanta-sutra this is also described in the following words: prakasas ca karmany abhyasat. "Devotional service is so potent that simply by engaging in the activities of devotional service, one becomes enlightened without a doubt." Narada, who happened to be the son of a maidservant, had no education, nor was he born into a high family. But when his mother was engaged in serving great devotees, Narada also became engaged, and sometimes, in the absence of his mother, he would serve the great devotees himself. Narada personally says, "Once only, by their permission, I took the remnants of their food, and by so doing all my sins were at once eradicated. Thus being engaged, I became purified in heart, and at that time the very nature of the transcendentalist became attractive to me."(Bhag 1.5.25) Narada tells his disciple Vyasadeva that in a previous life he was engaged as a boy servant of purified devotees during four months of their stay and that he was intimately associating with them. Sometimes those sages left remnants of food on their dishes, and the boy, who would wash their dishes, wanted to taste the remnants. So he asked the great devotees whether he could eat them, and they gave their permission. Narada then ate those remnants and consequently became freed from all sinful reactions. As he went on eating, he gradually became as purehearted as the sages, and he gradually developed the same taste. The great devotees relished the taste of unceasing devotional service of the Lord, hearing, chanting, etc., and by developing the same taste, Narada wanted also to hear and chant the glories of the Lord. Thus by associating with the sages, he developed a great desire for devotional service. Therefore he quotes from the Vedanta-sutra (prakasas ca karmany abhyasat): if one is engaged simply in the acts of devotional service, everything is revealed to him automatically, and he can understand. This is called prakasah, directly perceived.

Narada was actually a son of a maidservant. He had no opportunity to go to school. He was simply assisting his mother, and fortunately his mother rendered some service to the devotees. The child Narada also got the opportunity and simply by association achieved the highest goal of all religions, devotional service. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said that religious people generally do not know that the highest perfection of religion is the attainment of the stage of devotional service. Generally Vedic knowledge is required for understanding of the path of self-realization. But here, although he was not educated in the Vedic principle, Narada acquired the highest results of Vedic study. This process is so potent that even without performing the religious process regularly, one can be raised to the highest perfection. How is this possible? This is also confirmed in Vedic literature: acaryavan puruso veda. One who is in association with great acaryas, even if he is not educated or has not studied the Vedas, can become familiar with all the knowledge necessary for realization.

The process of devotional service is a very happy one. Why? Devotional service consists of sravanam kirtanam visnoh, so one can simply hear the chanting of the glories of the Lord or can attend philosophical lectures on transcendental knowledge given by authorized acaryas. Simply by sitting, one can learn; then one can eat the remnants of the food offered to God, nice palatable dishes. In every state devotional service is joyful. One can execute devotional service even in the most poverty-stricken condition. The Lord says, patram puspam phalam: He is ready to accept from the devotee any kind of offering, never mind what. Even a leaf, a flower, a bit of fruit, or a little water, which are all available in every part of the world, can be offered by any person, regardless of social position, and will be accepted if offered with love. There are many instances in history. Simply by tasting the tulasi leaves offered to the lotus feet of the Lord, great sages like Sanat-kumara became great devotees. Therefore the devotional process is very nice, and it can be executed in a happy mood. God accepts only the love with which things are offered to Him.

It is said here that this devotional service is eternally existing. It is not as the Mayavadi philosophers claim. They sometimes take to so-called devotional service, and as long as they are not liberated they continue their devotional service, but at the end, when they become liberated, they "become one with God." Such temporary time-serving devotional service is not accepted as pure devotional service. Actual devotional service continues even after liberation. When the devotee goes to the spiritual planet in the kingdom of God, he is also engaged there in serving the Supreme Lord. He does not try to become one with the Supreme Lord.

As it will be seen, actual devotional service begins after liberation. So in Bhagavad-gita it is said, brahma-bhuta. After being liberated, or being situated in the Brahman position, one's devotional service begins. By executing devotional service, one can understand the Supreme Lord. No one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by executing karma-yoga, jnana, or astanga-yoga or any other yoga independently. Without coming to the stage of devotional service, one cannot understand what is the Personality of Godhead. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is also confirmed that when one becomes purified by executing the process of devotional service, especially by hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam or Bhagavad-gita from realized souls, then he can understand the science of Krsna, or the science of God. Evam prasanna-manaso bhagavad-bhakti yogatah. When one's heart is cleared of all nonsense, then one can understand what God is. Thus the process of devotional service, of Krsna consciousness, is the king of all education and the king of all confidential knowledge. It is the purest form of religion, and it can be executed joyfully without difficulty. Therefore one should adopt it.

Bg. As It is

9.2

It seems that for you the litmus test is always whether or not someone is favorable to Narayana Maharaja.?

That is your conclusion. Kindly don't put words in my mouth. I don't do that to you. I am not a sectarian thinker and like HDG am of no particular faction. The litmus test is how anyone reacts to the preaching of mahabhagavata Vaisnavas. Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja is such a devotee. So is Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja, who is giving class very soon at 8:30 P.M. Tonight I will hear from him and stay at his matha overnight, before I return to SBVNM's matha in Janak Puri, Delhi.

I I know for sure that there are other camps in the Saraswata parivar where that is most certainly not the litmus test at all of whether a devotee is sincere.

There are envious, sectarian thinkers everywhere. I pick my association carefully, and in any sanga there are those to avoid and those to associate withl.

I imagine that old Kirtanananda Swami has reformed himself some.But, his offenses were monsterous and many devotess will never forgive him.

Then that is their problem and not his.

It doesn't mean anything to Narayana Maharaja because he was never effected by the heinous crimes of Kirtanananda...?

Yo cannot speculate about the consciousness of any pure devotee.Be careful not to tread on the thin ice of aparadha.

It's not up to Narayana Maharaja to forgive him, because Narayana Maharaja was never his victim as were the many devotees whose lives were wrecked by Kirtanananda

And it is not up to you or anyone else to judge the mercy of an exalted Vaisnava unless you share the same adhikara and see all living entities as eternal parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, and not as conditioned souls, or fallen disciples.

And besides that, I just don't buy into that KS or any other iskcon dictator,then or now,had or has any power ,then or nowto ruin anyone's spiritual life unless they follow blindly.Srila Prabhupada wrote very clearly in Bg. that blind

following is not accepted.everything must be accepted with care and attention. I will find the exact quote and

post it for you.

That Ks and others did

irreperable damage to many is not in dispute. I don't

think they understand the scope of what they did.In this regard they all seem rather clueless. Strange but true. Must be denial.

However I lived in NV 3years. I was never his victim, and I never let my children be abused by anyone either. I was an attentive parent and I cared less that some called that being too attached. Tough ! .

Maybe it is better that all his crimes and atrocities are broadcast?Maybe that will prevent some Hare Krishna madmen in the future from pulling off that kind of cult scam on other innocent people?

Anyone who sees the video will easily conclude that he was off.I watched it before I was thinking to move to NV. Other issues prevented the move, not KS's problems.

yes but duryodhana was just a nasty bad man.

he wasn't in any position of absolute so-called guru.

Indeed, but the point of Vidura's example is how he reacted to that nasty bad man. If any nasty bad man is sitting on a vyasasana because he has the gbc rubber stamp of ecclesiasticl approval, doesn't make him a bona fide anything, let alone a bona fide spiritual master. The dog can also sit on the vyasasna. Throw out a bone and he runs off of it and chases it. The mosquito can also sit right next to the guru, but all he can do is cause disturbance and suck the guru's blood. If the shoe fits, wear it, otherwise not.

I will never surrender to another human being. That is diabolical and a very bizarre condition for linking up to a loving God.

Don't think that pure devotees are anything but mercy personified. Be careful not to confuse your experience with actual Gaudiya Siddhanta.

Who burned you anyway. You want my list?You want me to tell you how many iskcon temples I've been ejected from for preaching what is written in His Divine Grace's books?, howmany nasty things so called godbrothers did to me and my family. Let thepast go, forget it ;it sleeps.

1.56

gurusu nara-matir yasya va naraki sah

One who thinks that the spiritual master is an ordinary man is said to live in hell. (Padma Purana)

1.57

yasya saksad bhagavati jnana-dipa prade gurau

martyasad-dhih srutam tasya sarvam kunjara-saucavat

The guru is considered as the Supreme Lord Himself, because he gives the light of transcendental knowledge to his disciples. Consequently, for one who maintains the material conception that the guru is an ordinary human being,

everything is frustrated. His attempts to progress in spiritual life, his Vedic studies and scriptural knowledge, his penances and austerities, and his worship of the Deity are all as useless as the bathing of an elephant. (Bhag. 7.15.26)

What a contradiction in terms. The requirement of absolute 'surrender' is a requirement of complete control of the guru over the said disciple. There is an non-negotiable command for diksa initiation which establishes this absolute control. That's what all the controversy and corruption is about..

This is ridiculous. Genuine Guru can only "control" the disciple by love and affection, in the same way the Srimati Radharani "controls" or directs her sakhis. You have a twisted view of anything spiritual because of your bad experience with bhogus ecllesiastically appointed whatever they are. But guru they are not. Kindly read these verses:

1.49

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatah

utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

A guru addicted to sensual pleasure and polluted by vice, who is ignorant and has no power to discriminate between right and wrong, or who is not on the path of suddha-bhakti must be abandoned. (Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, 179.25)

1.50

snehad va lobhato vapi yo grhniyad diksaya

tasmin gurau sa-sisye tat devata sapa apatet

If a guru, disregarding the standard for giving diksa, gives the mantra to his disciple out of greed or mundane affection, he is cursed by the gods along withthat disciple. (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 2.7)

1.51

yo vyakti nyaya rahitam anyayena srnoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

One who assumes the dress and position of an acarya, who speaks against them conclusions of Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures, or performs kirtana opposed to the proper glorification of Sri Krsna, certainly goes to hell for countless lifetimes along with his disciples and whoever else hears such non-devotional talks

and kirtanas. (Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101)

1.52

vaisnava-vidvesi cet parityajya eva. "guror api avaliptasye" ti smaranat,

vaisnava-bhava-rahityena avaisnavataya avaisnavopadisteneti vacana-visaya tvacca.

Yathokta-laksanasya sri-guror-avidyamanatayastu tasyaiva maha-bhagavatasyaikasya

nitya-sevanam paramam sreyah.

A guru who is envious of pure devotees, who blasphemes them, or behaves maliciously towards them should certainly be abandoned, remembering the verse "guror api avaliptasya" (See 1.49). Such an envious guru lacks the mood and character of a Vaisnava. The sastras enjoin that one should not accept initiation

from a non-devotee (avaisnavopadistena... See 1.54). Knowing these injunctions of the scriptures, a sincere devotee abandons a false guru who is envious of devotees. After leaving one who lacks the true qualities of a guru, if a devotee is without a spiritual guide, his only hope is to seek out a mahabhagavata vaisnava and serve

him. By constantly rendering service to such a pure devotee, one will certainly attain the highest goal of life. (Bhakti-sandarbha, Annucheda 238)

1.53

paramartha-gurvasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadi parityagenapi kartavyah

One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical convention. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance towards the ultimate

goal of life, krsna-prema. (Bhakti-sandarbha, annucheda 210)

1.54

avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet

punas ca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh

One who gets his mantra from a guru who is a non-devotee or who is addictedto sensual pleasure is doomed to a life in hell. Such a person must immediately approach a genuine Vaisnava guru and again accept the mantra from him.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.366)

Seems to me that you have never met a sad guru, pure devotee of Lord Krsna, or you would have a different perspective. More on this tattva is found here ,in the Gaudiya Kantahara:

http://bvml.org/SGK/01.html

1.14

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

One who is searching for the Ultimate Truth must surrender to a guru who knows the inner meaning of the Vedas, is fixed in the Absolute Truth and is expert in the sastra. (Bhag. 11.3.21)

1.15

krpa-sindhuh su-sampurnah

sarva-sattvopakarakah

nisprhah sarvatah siddhah

sarva-vidya-visaradah

sarva-samsaya-samchetta

'nalaso gurur ahrtah

One who is an ocean of mercy, who is fulfilled in all respects, who has all good qualities, who works for the benefit of all souls, who is free from lust, who is perfect in all respects, who is well-versed in the scriptures, who knows the science of Krsna, who can remove all the doubts of his disciples, and who is always alert in

the service of Krsna is known as a genuine guru.

(Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.45,46 quoted from Visnu-smrti Vacan

1.22

upaniya tu yah sisyam veda-madhyapayed dvijah

sankalpam sa-rahasyam ca tam acaryam pracaksate

An acarya is not one who only confers the sacred thread. He trains his disciples in sacrifice and teaches them the confidential meaning of the Vedas. Such a spiritual master is an acarya, according to saintly authorities.

(Manu-samhita 2.140)

1.23

acinoti yah sastrartham acare sthapayaty api

svayam acarate yasmad acaryas tena kirttitah

An acarya is one who fully understands the conclusions of the revealed scriptures and whose behavior reflects his deep realization. He is a living example for he teaches the meaning of the scriptures both by word and deed. (Vayu Purana)

1.24

yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah

sa yat pramanam kurute lokas tad anuvartate

Whatever a great man does, common men follow. Whatever standards he sets By exemplary acts, all the world pursues. (Bhagavad-gita 3.21)

1.25

apane acare keha, na kare pracara

pracara karena keha, na karena acara

'acara' 'pracara' namera karaha 'dui' karya

tumi sarva-guru, tumi jagatera arya

Some practice but do not preach, others preach but do not practice, but one who is perfect in both preaching and practice is the guru of the entire universe. You are a real jagad-guru, for you practice what you preach.

(Cc. Antya 4.102,103)

1.26

apane karimu bhakta-bhava angikare

apani acari' bhakti sikhamu sabare

I shall accept the role of a devotee, and I shall teach bhakti to everyone by practicing it Myself. (Cc. Adi 3.20)

1.27

apani na kaile dharma sikhana na yaya

If I do not do this Myself, then the principles of religion will not be taught. (Cc. Adi 3.21)

[url="http://bvml.org/SGK/01.html"]

Well then he failed, because the history of ISKCON is a history of authoritarian abuse. I say this with authority because I experienced it first hand. So many child abuse law suits coming from so many different places attests to the dangers of the absolute authority these monsters exert over the innocent and trusting.

The abuses mostly took place after l977. after His Divine Grace entered maha samadhi.

You may have been bruised and thinks this way but your opinion is relative to your own mental quantum. Somany disciples, women and others were mistreated. You have plenty of company amongst His Divine Grace's initiated disciples. Rather than just be bitter best if you can take shelter of the exmaple of Vidura in the face of such adversity.Vidura was also bruised by Duryodhana, but he took the matter Krsna consciously.

TEXT 15

TEXT

ka enam atropajuhava jihmam

dasyah sutam yad-balinaiva pustah

tasmin pratipah parakrtya aste

nirvasyatam asu purac chvasanah

SYNONYMS

kah--who; enam--this; atra--here; upajuhava--called for; jihmam--crooked; dasyah--of a kept mistress; sutam--son; yat--whose; balina--by whose subsistence; eva--certainly; pustah--grown up; tasmin--unto him; pratipah--enmity; parakrtya--enemy's interest; aste--situated; nirvasyatam--get him out; asu--immediately; purat--from the palace; svasanah--let him breathe only.

TRANSLATION

Who asked him to come here, this son of a kept mistress? He is so crooked that he spies in the interest of the enemy against those on whose support he has grown up. Toss him out of the palace immediately and leave him with only his breath.*

Note*(duryodhana is speaking about his uncle Vidura)

PURPORT

When getting married, the ksatriya kings would take on several other youthful girls along with the married princess. These girl attendants of the king were known as dasis, or attendant mistresses. By intimate association with the king, the dasis would get sons. Such sons were called dasi-putras. They had no claim to a royal position, but they would get maintenance and other facilities just like princes. Vidura was the son of such a dasi, and he was thus not counted amongst the ksatriyas. King Dhrtarastra was very affectionate toward his younger dasi-putra brother, Vidura, and Vidura was a great friend and philosophical advisor to Dhrtarastra. Duryodhana knew very well that Vidura was a great soul and well-wisher, but unfortunately he used strong words to hurt his innocent uncle. Duryodhana not only attacked Vidura's birth, but also called him an infidel because he seemed to support the cause of Yudhisthira, whom Duryodhana considered his enemy. He desired that Vidura he immediately put out of the palace and deprived of all his possessions. If possible, he would have liked him caned until he was left with nothing but his breath. He charged that Vidura was a spy of the Pandavas because he advised King Dhrtarastra in their favor. Such is the situation of palace life and the intricacies of diplomacy that even a faultless person like Vidura could be charged with something abominable and punished. Vidura was struck with wonder at such unexpected behavior from his nephew Duryodhana, and before anything actually happened, he decided to leave the palace for good.

TEXT 16

TEXT

svayam dhanur dvari nidhaya mayam

bhratuh puro marmasu tadito 'pi

sa ittham atyulbana-karna-banair

gata-vyatho 'yad uru manayanah

SYNONYMS

svayam--he himself; dhanuh dvari--bow on the door; nidhaya--keeping; mayam--the external nature; bhratuh--brother's; purah--from the palace; marmasu--in the core of the heart; taditah--being afflicted; api--in spite of; sah--he (Vidura); ittham--like this; ati-ulbana--severely; karna--ear; banaih--by the arrows; gata-vyathah--without being sorry; ayat--excited; uru--great; mana-yanah--so thinking.

TRANSLATION

Thus being pierced by arrows through his ears and afflicted to the core of his heart, Vidura placed his bow on the door and quit his brother's palace. He was not sorry, for he considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme.

PURPORT

A pure devotee of the Lord is never perturbed by an awkward position created by the external energy of the Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (3.27) it is stated:

prakrteh kriyamanani

gunaih karmani sarvasah

ahankara-vimudhatma

kartaham iti manyate

A conditioned soul is absorbed in material existence under the influence of different modes of external energy. Absorbed in the false ego, he thinks that he is doing everything by himself. The external energy of the Lord, the material nature, is fully under the control of the Supreme Lord, and the conditioned soul is fully under the grip of the external energy. Therefore, the conditioned soul is fully under the control of the law of the Lord. But, due to illusion only, he thinks himself independent in his activities. Duryodhana was acting under such influence of the external nature, by which he would be vanquished at the ultimate end. He could not accept the sound advice of Vidura, but on the contrary he insulted that great soul, who was the well-wisher of his whole family. Vidura could understand this because he was a pure devotee of the Lord. In spite of being very strongly insulted by Duryodhana's words, Vidura could see that Duryodhana, under the influence of maya, the external energy, was making progress on the path toward his own ruination. He therefore considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme, yet he also saw how the internal energy of the Lord helped him in that particular situation. A devotee is always in a renounced temperament because the worldly attractions can never satisfy him. Vidura was never attracted by the royal palace of his brother. He was always ready to leave the place and devote himself completely to the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Now he got the opportunity by the grace of Duryodhana, and instead of being sorry at the strong words of insult, he thanked him from within because it gave him the chance to live alone in a holy place and fully engage in the devotional service of the Lord. The word gata-vyathah (without being sorry) is significant here because Vidura was relieved from the tribulations which trouble every man entangled in material activities. He therefore thought that there was no need to defend his brother with his bow because his brother was meant for ruination. Thus he left the palace before Duryodhana could act. Maya, the supreme energy of the Lord, acted here both internally and externally.

SB Canto 3, Txt

Srila Prabhupada said that his mission would be a success if it produced one moon, one puredevotee.In that regard Srila GourGovinda Maharja

http://bvml.org/SGGM/index.htm

was proof enough that Srila Prabhupada certainly succeeded. Also Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBNM/index.htm

was one of His Divine Grace'sfirst siksa disciples.His mission is certainly successful spiritually,. whether you can see and/or appreciate that or not.Doesn't change the fact.

That most of His Divine Grace's disciples fell short,or that his institution has goneto hell ina hand basket after his disappearance is no reflection on Him. The break up of the Gaudiya Matha did not mean that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's pure devotional service was in vain, regardless ofwhat happenend tohis institution.Try reading him morecarefully. You obviously did not take the timeto consider the principle of the "goodpreceptor"vs. any unqualified so called guru.

It is kali yuga, and sad sisya is as rare as sad guru.

Srila bhaktivinoda Thakura advises us to "forget the past that sleeps."

That video is a 6 hour compilation that was done by the Pittsburgh local pbs station. It clearly shows that New Vrndavana had problems, and that Kirtanananda Prabhu was also dealing with many issues. What value to drag it up? Despite the many vilifying gurukulis, former New Vrndavana residents, former child-abused victims of Sri Galim, etc etc etc Kirtanananda still has the right to make spiritual advancement. Our vaisnava acara is supposed to be that even if there is some fall down, any candidate can reinstate himself without and prayascita (atomement) other than once again following the four regulative principles of freedom, and chanting the holy name.

Kirtanananda's body is plagued by polio from his youth. He is wheel chair bound and requires assistance with basic life necessities. Surely that and 14 years in prison has softened his heart from many of the mistakes he made due to arrogance, power etc. . He has only a few followers left, and it is very clear that Krsna has taken away all the men, money, land and false prestige and made his path forward spiritually still a concrete possibility.

He traveled at great personal nconvenience to hear from Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja in florida last year. Think what you will, but I used to live in New Vrndavana when he was the object of everyone's worship. He assumed a much humbler stance this time and was appreciative of Vaisnava association and came to every class and sat on the side and simply listened. When asked to speak something by SBVNM he mostly defered to the other sannyasis on the stage and kept his remarks to the point of KC but very short. He was cutting no profile, had no agenda and should be given credit where credit is due. I dont defend the errors in judgement and nasty behavior in anyone's past. I also don't condone any of the sins committed by anyone in the name of KC. However to quote Lord Jesus, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

. For all of the mistakes Kirtanananea has made he is not curren

tly a Vaisnava aparadhi, and that cannot be said of many of his so called god brothers who still hold positions in the founder-acaryas' institution.

Interestingly enough I recently( November) saw Bhavananada up close, first hand in Mayapura. I went to the mangala aratike at the iskcon candradoya mandira, at the insistance of a friend from Calcutta who owns the mango grove where Srila Prabhuapd used to take prasadam half way between Calcutta and Nabadwipa.

Bhavananda knew me when I joined in l970. He was my tp and first guide in KC, to some extent. He simply ignored me and I was forced to practice the same kind of upeksa. Whatever he has done I did not get the same reaction to seeing him as I did when I saw Kirtanananda. Perhaps the scope of their aparadhas differ in severity. Who can say. But if any of the poison allegations against Bhavaananda are true it is very sacry indeed that such a personality is being supported and endorsed by Jayapataka, who must be his partner in spiritual crime.

Jai Advaita Maharja told me that he thought that B was now in good consciousness and could only help the Mayapura scheme. I simply did not have the heart or stomach to carryvthat discussion any further, or even respond to his evaluation..

We have taken upon ourselves the responsibility of welcoming this grave charge. All the audience have accepted ordinary seats, I alone have been provided with a lofty seat. All are being told in effect 'Do have a look at a big animal from the Zoo-gardens. What arrogance! So foolish! So wicked! Have you ever seen such a big brute? Garlands of flowers have been put round his neck! What laudations! What bombastic long-drawn, and hyperbolic adjectives! And how complacently too he is listening to the praise of his own achievements, how intently, and with his own ears! He also evidently feels delighted in mind! Is he not acting in plain violation of the teaching of Mahaprabhu? Can such a big brute, so selfish and insolent, be ever reclaimed from brutishness?'

I happen to be one of the greatest of fools. No one offers me good advice on account of my arrogance. Inasmuch as nobody condescends to instruct me I placed my case before Mahaprabhu Himself. The thought occurred to me that I would make over the charge of myself to Him and see what He would advise me to do. Then Shri Chaitanyadeva said to me:

"Whom-so-ever thou meet'st, instruct him regarding Krishna, By My command being Guru deliver this land; In this thou wilt not be obstructed by the current of the world; Thou wilt have My company once again at this place."

In these verses is to be found the proper explanation of the apparent inconsistency noticed above.

He whose only teaching is humility greater than that of a blade of grass, said "By My command being Guru save this land!" In this instance Mahaprabhu Himself has given the command. His command being 'Perform the duty of the Guru, even as I do it Myself. Also convey this command to whom-so-ever you chance to meet.' Chaitanyadeva says, 'Tell them these very words viz, by My command being Guru save this land. Deliver the people from their foolishness.' Now who-so- ever happens to hear these words would naturally protest with palms joined - 'But I am really a great sinner; how can I be Guru? You are Godhead Himself, the Teacher of the world. You can be Guru.' To this Mahaprabhu replies:

"In this thou will not be obstructed by the current of the world; Thou wilt have My company once again at this place."

'Do not practice the craft of a Guru for the purpose of injuring others through malice. Do not adopt the trade of a Guru in order to get immersed in the slough of this world. But if you can, indeed, be My guileless servant you will be endowed with My power - then you need not fear.'

I have no fear. My Gurudeva has heard this from his Gurudeva. And it is for this reason that my Gurudeva has accepted even such a great sinner as myself and has told me: 'By My command being Guru save this land.' It is only those who have never heard these words of Gaursundar who say 'How odd! to listen to one's own praise!' While the Guru is instructing his disciple in the eleventh Skandha of the Bhagavatam what a great sin, in their opinion, is he not perpetuating! What is the Acharya to do when he has to explain the Shloka 'Acharya Mam Vijaniyat: Never disregard the Acharya; never entertain the idea that the Acharya is your equal in any sense.' These are the words of Shri Krishna Himself by which the jiva is to be benefited. Is the Guru to take himself off, to desert his seat the seat of the Acharya - from which these words are to be explained? That office his Gurudeva has conferred on him. If he does not act up to its requirements he is doomed to perdition by reason of his offense against the holy Name in the shape of disrespect towards the Guru. He has to do it in spite of the fact that such procedure is apparently open to the charge of egoism. When the Guru imparts the mantram to the disciple should he not tell him by this mantram to worship the Guru? Should he say instead, 'Give the Guru a few strokes of the shoe or the horse-whip?' The Guru is never to be decried. The Guru is the abode of all the gods. Should the Gurudeva abstain from communicating these words to his disciple while reading the Bhagavatam to him? 'To him alone who possesses guileless spiritual devotion, similar to the transcendental devotion that is due to Krishna Himself, to the Gurudeva, the holy mysteries are manifested.' Is the Gurudeva not to tell these things to his disciples? 'Athau Gurupuja: the worship of the Guru has precedence over all others. The Guru is to be served just as Krishna is served. The Guru is to be worshipped in a particular way. Is the Guru to desert his seat without telling all these things to the disciple? In the angle there is always the defect in the shape of absence of the fullness, the evenness of level, of 180 degrees or of 360 degrees. But in the plain surface, in 360 degrees, there is no such defect. That in the emancipated state no defect is possible, this simple truth ordinary foolish people entirely fail to grasp.

As the saying goes, 'having started on the dance it is no use to draw close the veil.' I am doing the duty of the Guru, but if I preach that no one should shout 'Jai' to me, that is to say, if I say in a round about way, 'sing Jai to me,' it would be nothing short of duplicity. Our Gurudeva has not taught us such insincerity. Mahaprabhu has not taught such insincerity. I have to serve God in the straightforward way. The word of God has come down to the Gurudeva; I have to obey it in all sincerity. I will not disrespect the Guru at the instance of any foolish or malicious sectarians.

Especially as Shri Gurudeva has directed me saying, 'By My command being Guru save this land.' This command has my Gurudeva preached. My Gurudeva in his turn has conveyed the command to me. I will not be guilty of any insincerity in carrying out that command. In this matter I will not accept the ideal of ignorant, insincere, pseudo-ascetic sectarianism. I will not learn insincerity. The worldly-minded, the malicious, the pseudo-renunciationists, the selfish cannot understand how the devotees of God, spurning at everything of this world by command of God, never, not even for a second, deviate from the service of God through all the twenty-four hours.

Hypocritical sectarians, pseudo-Vaishnava sects, those sects that cherish internally the longing for earthly fame, naturally enough think 'what a shame it is for one to listen to the eulogies of disciples occupying the seat of the Guru.' But every Vaishnava regards everyone of the Vaishnavas as the object of his veneration. When Thakur Haridas exhibits the attitude of humility Mahaprabhu says - 'You are the greatest of the world, the crest-jewel of the world. Be agreeable, let us have our meal together.' He carried in His arms the body of Thakur Haridas which is eternally existent, self-conscious and full of spiritual bliss. In the community that follows Shri Rupa, the qualities of desiring no honor for oneself and of readiness to duly honor others are fully present. Those who detect any disparity are, like the owl, blind while the sun shines. They commit an offense by such conduct. If I disobey the law which has come down to me through the chain of preceptorial succession, the offense due to omission to carry out the command of the Guru will sever me from the lotus-feet of Shri Gurudeva. If in order to carry out the command of the Vaishnava Guru I have to be arrogant, to be brutish, to suffer eternal perdition, I am prepared to welcome such eternal damnation and even sign a pact to that effect. I will not listen to the words of other malicious persons in lieu of the command of the Gurudeva. I will dissipate with indomitable courage and conviction the currents of thought of all the rest of the world, relying on the strength derived from the lotus-feet of Shri Gurudeva. I confess to this arrogance. By sprinkling a particle of the pollen of the lotus-feet of my Preceptor scores of people like you will be saved. There is no such learning in this world, no such sound reasoning in all the fourteen worlds, in no man-gods, that can weigh more than a solitary particle of the dust of the lotus-feet of my Gurudeva. Gurudeva in whom I have implicit trust can never spite me. I am by no means prepared to listen to the words of any one who wants to hurt me or to accept such a malicious person as my preceptor.

SBSST

Love

Love is never forced, and the relationship of submission and service (seva) between any bona fide guru and any bona fide disciple is purely voluntary and based on love and affection, not "power" over another jiva. The anugatya (guidance) of the pure soul is a great blessing on any conditioned jiva. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura (SBSST) wrote with very advanced understanding of how to use the English language to communicate transcendental conceptions. He has addressed your doubt about submission to any spiritual authority in these two essays. These essays require full attention and careful scrutiny of the language.

THE ceremony of diksha or initiation is that by which the spiritual Preceptor admits one to the status of a neophyte on the path of spiritual endeavour. The ceremony tends to confer spiritual enlightenment by abrogating sinfulness. Its actual effect depends on the degree of willing co-operation on the part of the disciple and is, therefore, not the same in all cases. It does not preclude the possibility of reversion on the novice to the non-spiritual state, if he slackens in his effort or misbehaves. Initiation puts a person on the true track and also imparts an initial impulse to go ahead. It cannot, however, keep one going for good unless one chooses to put forth his own voluntary effort. The nature of the initial impulse also varies in accordance with the condition of the recipient. But although the mercy of the good preceptor enables us to have a glimpse of the Absolute and of the path of His attainment, the seed that is thus sown requires very careful tending under the direction of the preceptor, if it is to germinate and grow into the fruit-and-shade-giving tree. Unless our soul of his own accord chooses to serve Krishna after obtaining a working idea of his real nature, he cannot long retain the Spiritual Vision. The soul is never compelled by Krishna to serve Him.

But initiation is never altogether futile. It changes the outlook of the disciple on life. If he sins after initiation, he may fall into greater depths of degradation than the uninitiated. But although even after initiation temporary set-backs may occur, they do not ordinarily prevent the final deliverance. The faintest glimmering of the real knowledge of the Absolute has sufficient power to change radically and for good the whole of our mental and physical constitution and this glimmering is incapable of being totally extinguished except in extraordinarily unfortunate cases.

It is undoubtedly practicable for the initiated, if only he is willing, to follow the directions of the preceptor that lead by slow degrees to the Absolute. The good preceptor is verily the savior of fallen souls. It is, however, very rarely that a person with modern culture feels inclined to submit to the guidance of another specially in spiritual matters. But the very person submits readily enough to the direction of a physician for being cured of his bodily ailments. Because these latter cannot be ignored without consequences that are patent to everybody. The evil that results from our neglect of the ailments of the soul is of a nature that paralyses and deludes our understanding and prevents the recognitions of itself. Its gravity is not recognized as it does not apparently stand in the way of our worldly activities with the same directness as the other. The average cultured man is, therefore, at liberty to ask questions without realizing any pressing necessity of submitting to the treatment of spiritual maladies at the hands of a really competent physician.

The questions that are frequently asked are as these: ‘Why should it be at all necessary to submit to any particular person or to to any particular ceremony for the purpose of realizing the Absolute Who by His nature in unconditioned? Why should Krishna require our formal declaration of submission to Himself? Would it not be more generous and logical to permit us to live a life of freedom in accordance with the principles of our perverted nature which is also His creation. Admitting that it is our duty to serve Krishna, why should we have to be introduced to Him by a third party? Why is it impossible for one to serve Sri Krishna directly?’ It would no doubt be highly convenient and helpful to be instructed by a good preceptor who is well-versed in the Scriptures in understanding the same. But one should never submit to another to an extent that may furnish a rascal with an opportunity of really doing harm. The bad preceptor is a familiar character. It is inexplicable how those gurus who live in open sin contrive nevertheless to retain the unquestioning allegiance of the cultured portion of their disciples.

Such being the case, can we blame any person who hesitates to submit unconditionally to a preceptor, whether he is good or bad? It is of course necessary to be quite sure of the bonafide of a person before we accept him even tentatively as our spiritual guide. A preceptor should be a person who appears likely to possess those qualities that will enable him it improve our spiritual condition.

Those and similar thoughts are likely to occur to most persons who have received an English education, when they are asked to accept the help of any particular person as his spiritual preceptor. The literature, science and art of the West, body forth the principle of the liberty of the individual and denounce the mentality that leads one to surrender to however superior a person his right of choosing his own course. They inculcate the necessity and high value of having faith in oneself.

But the good preceptor claims our sincere and complete allegiance. The good disciple makes a complete surrender of himself at the feet of the preceptor. But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational or blind. It is complete on condition that the preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely. A good preceptor is in duty bound to renounce a disciple who is not sincerely willing to follow his instructions fully. If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their spiritual state.

No one is a good preceptor who has not realised the Absolute. One who has realised the Absolute is saved from the necessity of walking on the worldly path. The good preceptor who lives the spiritual life is, therefore, bound to be wholly good. He should be wholly free from any desire for anything of this world whether good or bad. The categories of good and bad do not exist in the Absolute. In the Absolute everything is good. We can have no idea in our present state of this absolute goodness. Submission to the Absolute is not real unless it is also itself absolute. It is on the plane of the Absolute that the disciple is required to submit completely to the good preceptor. On the material plane there can be no such thing as complete submission. The pretence of complete submission to the bad preceptor is responsible for the corruptions that are found in the relationship of the ordinary worldly guru and his equally worldly-minded disciples.

All honest thinkers will realise the logical propriety of the position set forth above. But most persons will be disposed to believe that a good preceptor in the above sense may not be found in this world. This is really so. Both the good preceptor and his disciple belong to the spiritual realm. But spiritual discipleship is nevertheless capable of being realised by persons who belong to this world. Otherwise there wold be no religion at all in the world. But because the spiritual life happens to be realizable in this world it does not follow that it is the worldly existence which is capable of being improved into the spiritual. As a matter of fact the one is perfectly incompatible with the other. They are categorically different from one another. The good preceptor although he appears to belong to this world is not really of this world. No one who belongs to this world can deliver us from worldliness. The good preceptor is a denizen of the spiritual world who has been enabled by the will of God to appear in this world in order to enable us to realise the spiritual existence.

The much vaunted individual liberty is a figment of the diseased imagination. We are bound willingly or unwillingly to submit to the laws of God in the material as well as in the spiritual world. The hankering for freedom in defiance of His laws is the cause of all our miseries. The total abjuration of all hankering for such freedom is the condition of admission to the spiritual realm. In this world we desire this freedom but are compelled against our will to submit to the inexorable laws of physical nature. This is the unnatural state. Such unwilling for forced submission does not admit us into the spiritual realm. In this world the moral principle, indeed claims our willing submission. But even morality also is a curtailment of freedom necessitated by the peculiar circumstances of this world. The soul who does not belong to this world is in a state of open or court rebellion against submission to an alien domination. It is by his very constitution capable of submitting willingly only to the Absolute.

The good preceptor asks the struggling soul to submit not to the laws of this world which will only rivet its chains but to the higher law of the spiritual realm. The pretence of submission to the laws of the spiritual realm without the intention of really carrying them out into practice is often mistaken for genuine submission by reason of the absence of fullness of conviction. In this world the fully convinced state is non-existent. We are, therefore, compelled in all cases to act on make-believes viz. the so-called working hypotheses. The good preceptor tells us to change this method of activity which we have learnt from our experience of this world. He invites us first of all to be really and fully informed of the nature and laws of the other world which happens to be eternally and categorically different from this phenomenal world. If we do not sincerely submit to be instructed in the alphabets of the life eternal but go on perversely asserting however unconsciously our present processes and so-called convictions against the instructions of the preceptor in the period of novitiate we are bound to remain where we are. This also will amount to the practical rejection of all advice because the two worlds have nothing in common though at the same time we naturally fail to understand this believing all the time in accordance with our accustomed methods that we are at any rate partially following the preceptor. But as a matter of fact when we reserve the right of choice we really follow ourselves, because even when we seem to agree to follow the preceptor it is because he appears to be in agreement with ourselves. But as the two worlds have absolutely nothing in common we are only under a delusion when we suppose that we really understand the method or the object of the preceptor or in other words reserve the right of assertion of the apparent self. Faith in the scriptures can alone help us in this otherwise unpracticable endeavour. We believe in the preceptor with the help of the shastras when we understand neither. As soon as we are fully convinced of the necessity of submitting unambiguously to the good preceptor it is then and only then that he is enabled to show us the way into the spiritual world in accordance with the method laid down in the shastras of that purpose which he can apply properly and without perpetrating a fatal blunder in as much as he himself happens to belong to the realm of the spirit.

The crux of the matter lies not in the external nature of the ceremony of initiation as it appears to us because that is bound to be unintelligible to us being an affair of the other world, but in the conviction of the necessity and the successful choice of a really good preceptor. We can attain to the conviction of the necessity of the help of a good preceptor by the exercise of our unbiased reason in the light of our ordinary experience. When once this conviction has been truly formed Sri Krishna Himself helps us in finding the really good preceptor in two ways. In the first place he instructs us as regards the character and functions of a good preceptor through the revealed Shastras. In the second place He Himself sends to us the good preceptor himself at the moment when we are at all likely to benefit by his instructions. The good preceptor also comes to us when we reject him. In such cases also it is certainly Krishna Who sends him to us for no reason what-so-ever. Krishna has revealed from eternity the tidings of the spiritual realm in the form of transcendental sounds that have been handed down in the records of the spiritual Scriptures all over the world. The spiritual Scriptures help all those who are prepared to exercise this reason for the purpose of finding not the relative but the Absolute Truth to find out the proper instructor in accordance with their directions. The only good preceptor is he who can make us really understand the spiritual scriptures and they enable us realise the necessity and the nature of submission to the processes laid down in them. But there is still every chance of foul play. A very clever man or a magician may pass himself off as a person who can properly explain the Scriptures by means of his greater knowledge or deceptive arts. It is very important, therefore, that we should be on our guard against such tricks. The Scholar as well as the magician pretend to explain the Scriptures only in terms of the object or happenings of this world. But the Scriptures themselves declare that they do not tell us at all of the thing of this world. Those who are liable to be deluded by the arts of pervert yogis who persuade themselves into believing that the spiritual is identical with the perversion, distortion or defiance of the laws of physical nature. The laws of physical nature are not unreal. They govern the relation of all relative existences(.) In our present state it is therefore, always possible for another who possesses the power or the knowledge to demonstrate the merely tentative character of what we choose to regard as our deepest convictions by exposing their insufficiency or inapplicability. But such surprises as they belong to the realm of the phenomenal, have nothing to do with the Absolute. Those who have an unspiritual partiality for scholarship or for magic fall into the clutches of the pseudo-religionists. The serious plight of these victims of their own perversity will be realised from the fact that no one can be delivered from the state of ignorance by the method of compulsion. It is not possible to save the man who refuses on principle to listen to the voice of reason. The empiric pedants are no exception to this rule.

The plain meaning of the Shastras should, therefore, be our only guide in the search of the good preceptor when we actually feel the need of his guidance. The Scriptures have defined the good preceptor as one who himself leads the spiritual life. It is not any worldly qualifications that make the good preceptor. It is by unreserved submission to such a preceptor that we can be helped to reenter into the realm that is our real home but which unfortunately is veritable terra incognita to almost all of us at present and also impossible of access to one body and mind alike which is the result of the disease of abuse of our faculty of free reason and the consequent accumulation of a killing load of worldly experiences which we have learnt to regard as the very stuff of our existence.

================================================== ============== Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura penned the original document in the year 442 of the Chaitanya Era, corresponding to December, 1928, on the western calendar. The original treatise can still be found in various Gaudiya archives, under volume 26, number 7, of the Shri Sajjana-toshani.

I'm going to continue with my Christian faith. There is still some corruption but it doesn't demand total subjugation of one person by another. Nobody should have that kind of power. And it's not so damn complicated.

Kindly examine this statetment by His Divine Grae Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuapsda. It is the second secondary reason for his preaching mission from his "l966 Constitution of Association"

". . . 2. To discharge as a matter of coures the vitiated system of supremacy of one man over another by false prestige of birthright or vested interests.

(*Note from Puru Das Adhikari - Please don't misunderstand "2." The New Webster's Dictionary definitions of discharge and vitiated are as follows:

discharge -.to unload, to discharge cargo,to absolve, free oneself from, to release (am arrow or bullet) to rid of an electrical charge, to dismiss etc. . . and

vitiated- spoiled ., made defective, corrupted (morals or taste), invalidated or made wholly or partly ineffective.)

I cannot find the Sri Krsna Samhita or the four different mantras on line anywhere. I will have to look for a hard copy of the book and type them out for you.