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anadi

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  1. Quote: <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 139.44%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 100%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="100%"> Originally Posted by anadi<o:p></o:p> That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest. We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana. The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.<o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Reply: Surely, I am not alone in appreciating the profound irony that, in order to practice spontaneous devotion (raganuga bhakti), one must have a special, formal, non-spontaneous initiation? That's hillarious!!!<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats. It is a large spread wrong idea that the practice of raganuga bhakti would be spontaneous.<o:p></o:p> This is due to the fact that when people refer to raganuga bhakti, they forget that this is a type of sadhana, a type of activities that the practitioner must follow in order to attain a certain type of bhava. <o:p></o:p> When this bhava is attained and one comes on the level of bhava bhakti, one’s bhakti (be it vaidhi or raganuga) starts to be more or less spontaneous, namely one will <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->follow spontaneously the rules and regulations of worshiping the Lord according arcana – due to the bhava - love - coming from vaidhi bhakti or accordingly will<o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->follow spontaneously the way of “worshiping” of the residents of Vraja – due to the bhava – love – coming from raganuga bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This spontaneity is different as is given by different types of love.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Jiva Gosvami discusses the necessity of receiving of diksa in his Bhakti Sandarbha (Anuccheda 283), having first quoted the aforementioned verse of the Bhagavata: yadyapi zrI-bhAgavata-mate paJcarAtrAdivad arcana-mArgasyAvazyakatvaM nAsti, tad vinApi zaraNApatty-AdInAm ekatareNApi puruSArtha-siddher abhihitatvAt, tathApi zrI-nAradAdi-vartmAnusaradbhiH zrI-bhagavatA saha sambandha-vizeSaM dIkSA-vidhAnena zrI-guru-caraNa-sampAditaM cikIrSadbhiH kRtAyAM dIkSAyAm arcanam avazyaM kriyetaiva | "Although in the opinion of the Bhagavata Purana, the path of arcana, like the Pancaratra and so forth, is not necessary, since, even without that, one can achieve the goal of human life by one of the other methods like surrender (saranapatti) and the rest, still those who are following the path of Narada and others and who desire the particular relationship with the Lord that is effected at the feet of the guru by the rite of diksa necessarily perform arcana when diksa is completed." Jiva then proceeds to quote a verse from the agamas to illustrate the substantial import of receiving diksa: divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam | tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH || ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca | gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH || "The teachers who are knowers of the truth say that since it gives (da) divine knowledge and destroys (ksi) sin it is called diksa. Therefore, paying obeisance to the guru and offering him one's all, one should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures."<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Jiva further illuminates the meaning of "divya-jnana", or the divine knowledge which is transmitted in diksa: divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca | "Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him." Carefully considering the above, we may understand that at the time of diksa, the divine preceptor initiates the disciple into the methods of worshiping that particular form of the Lord for which the disciple has attraction, and the diksa-mantra transmitted by the preceptor contains information which reveals this relationship for which the initiate aspires.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Thus we are bound to note that at the time of diksa, the most essential elements for the growth of the sadhaka are given -- the very elements which will outline the path of his inner evolution from this very moment to the concrete attainment of his cherished specific relationship with the Lord. In this connection one should understand the glory of those unbroken diksa-lineages through which this most essential divine wisdom has been received since the days of Sri Caitanya's dear associates.<o:p></o:p>
  2. Dear sucandra-ji, dandavats you wrote: Instead we have since 30 years fallen gurus, fallen GBCs, fallen sannyasis, fallen TPs. What more proof do you need? <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Answer: One should speak for Himself. If one practices sadhana bhakti , one attains its fruit.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>So after 30 years of "service" where is our present sadhana? The are TWO VARIETIES OF PRACTICE The practices are divided into two main categories, which are as follows: (1) Service in the physical body -- In his physical body, the aspirant follows in the footsteps of the great teachers of the past, engaging in various activities such as associating with saints, chanting the holy names, hearing discourses about the philosophy and the pastimes of Sri Krishna and His beloved associates, worshiping the Deity form of the Lord on the altar, and residing in a holy place. (2) Service in the internally conceived body -- In his internally conceived spiritual body, which is suitable for rendering particular services to the Divine Couple, the aspirant engages in the practice of smarana, rememembrance. This service has two phases, namely static meditation and dynamic meditation. They are understood as follows: (1) Mantramayi-upasana (static meditiation) -- The aspirant meditates on the Divine Couple seated in the midst of yogapitha (seat of union) formed in the shape of an eight-petaled lotus. The Divine Couple are surrounded by Their confidantes, namely the eight sakhis (girl-friends), who are located on the inner eight petals of the lotus, and the eight manjaris (maidservants) who are located on the next eight petals of the lotus. Following his guru who has assumed a form similar to the confidantes of the Divine couple, the aspirant renders various services to everyone in his own internal guru-given form of a maidservant. (2) Svarasiki-upasana (dynamic meditation) -- The aspirant meditates on the eight-fold daily pastimes of the Divine Couple, rendering various services which have been assigned to him (her) by the guru, and which are appropriate for the ongoing pastime. Generally the meditation on the daily pastimes of Radha-Krishna is preceded by a shorter contemplation on the corresponding daily pastimes of Sri Chaitanya, who is understood to Krishna Himself in the form of His devotee. The practices of the aspirant naturally begin with the services performed with the physical body. In the course of time, as his understanding and ability of concentration increase, the internal practices become more and more prominent. However, the two are never to be separated from each other. They are to be adopted in a relationship of interdependence, where progress in one nourishes the other.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> you also wrote: Simply to go on with the same procedure: artificially jump to the tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam and after 3 years again fall back into maya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Reply: What about preaching for 30 years<o:p></o:p> we are not this body and <o:p></o:p> we should implement varnashrama dharma? and not dare to read about the Radha-Krisna lila, because guru says is too high, and still singing jaya Radhe jaya Krishna, without understanding what one is trying to glorify.<o:p></o:p> I don’t think this is very useful for bhakti. <o:p></o:p> Bhakti is very individual, and bhaktas have different speeds of bhajan.<o:p></o:p>
  3. <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Originally Posted by anadi<o:p></o:p> 1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma. The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda. And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, … 2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is <o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Reply: Hare Krishna Anadi prabhu, _/\ò_ Well let's face reality, what is fact - we have here presently throughout 20 European countries about 5000 devotees who were forced to leave ISKCON do to like epedemic falling down Vaishnava leaders and started to live on their own without sadhusanga,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear sucandra-ji, dandavats<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The people left iskcon because they thought they have association with sadhus, but most obviously they didn’t. They were frustrated of putting faith in weak people like themselves, what to say of being sadhus.<o:p></o:p> One may even be no sadhu, have no realization of his true form, and his relation to the Lord, and make from sannyasi a prosperous profession, contrary of many sannyayi principles of life: building his own temples, where they live like kings, with the danger of getting a queen, if they are not already in their 60-ies, and this was an incentive form many to become “gurus”.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You also wrote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> basically because of people who preached the same what you're saying: temple is pure transcendence - nothing else is required.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Answer<o:p></o:p> This is a logical mistake.<o:p></o:p> If one is practicing bhakti outside the temple, it doesn’t mean one should implement varanashram dharma. Varnashrama dharma is not a stimulant for bhakti.<o:p></o:p> I personally didn’t agree to move in the temple as I was repeatedly invited to do it in the beginning, and forget about the world. Maybe I didn’t have sukriti for it, and I've never preached one should move in the temple.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> You also wrote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> May be you get your facts straight and admit that what you try to teach didnt work out. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Answer<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Is not me that teaches. It is Mahaprabhu and all the Gaudiya siddhanta:<o:p></o:p> to do bhakti you don’t need to make stronger your upphadhis – material designations:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA | kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH || I am not a Brahmin, nor am I a Kshatriya; Not a Vaishya, nor a Shudra am I. I am neither brahmachari, nor householder, nor retiree, nor am I a monk who has renounced the world. Instead, I make this claim: I am a servant to the servant to the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Krishna, who is the lover of the gopis, the overflowing ocean of nectar and the only source of supreme and immortal joy.<o:p></o:p>
  4. As today is the disappearance day of Sri Vrindavan das Thakur, I post again for our remembrance and meditation, from his Caitanya Bhagavat about a great event, a display of oppulence and sweetness: Lord Caitanya’s mahA-prakAza, or great revelations during which all the vaiSNavas obtained fulfilment of their desires, as recorded by ZrI VRindAvana dAsa ThAkura in his "ZrI Caitanya bhAgavata". This pastime is widely known as sAta-prahariyAbhAva or “The twenty one hour exstasy”. During this time the Lord (Caitanya) manifested various incarnations. During this pastime the Lord ate wonderfully, huge amount of prasadama was being offered unto Him, manifested wonderful forms according the mood of His servants, and awarded devotional service to one and all. The Lord said to ZrIvAsa, “O ZrIvAsa, do your remember when you once heard Zrimad BhAgavatam from DevAnanda paNDita? Every line of Zrimad BhAgavatam is full of loving devotional mellows, and your heart melted on hearing that narration. You began to cry loudly and fell to the ground, overwhelmed with ecstasy. Not understanding your devotional sentiments, the foolish students could not understand why you were crying. You lost external consciousness while exhibiting transformations of ecstatic love and the students carried you outside. DevAnanda did not stop them. As the guru was ignorant, so were his disciples. When they left you outside the door, you returned home greatly distressed. Feeling unhappy at heart, you sat down in a solitary place and again began to read Zrimad BhAgavatam. Seeing your distress, I left VaikuNTha and appeared in your body. Then I sat in your heart and made you cry by awarding you loving devotion. You became ecstatic by hearing Zrimad BhAgavatam, and the entire area became wet as if by rain." Realizing the words of the Lord, ZrIvAsa became overwhelmed. He felled on the ground, cried, and sighed deeply. In this way the Lord reminded all the VaiSNavas headed by Advaita about their previous experiences. The lion like Gaura (golden avatara) happily enjoyed His pastimes while extending His feet and touching the bodies of the devotees. If by chance a devotee was not there, by the sAta-prahariyAbhAva or “The twenty one hour exstasy”, the mahA-prakAza, or great revelations during which all the vaiSNavas obtained fulfilment of their desires, the Lord personally ordered the he should be brought there. He ordered, “Quickly, go and bring ZrIdhara. Let him come and behold My opulences. As he constantly thinks of Me, he feels great unhappiness. Bring him at once so that he may see My glories. Go to the edge of town and wait there. Bring that person who is calling out My name." Following the Lord’s instruction, some vaiSNavas hurried to the house of ZrIdhara, who earned his livelihood by selling banana leaves. He would buy one banana tree, cut it into pieces, and then sell those pieces. He offered half of whatever he earned in a day in worship of the Ganges. With the other half, he maintained his life. This is the test of a devotee of ViSNu. He was as truthful as MahArAja YudhiSThira. He never deviated from whatever price he fixed. He passed the entire night without sleep while loudly chanting the names of kRSNa and Hari. All the atheists complained, “Due to ZrIdhara’s loud cries, we cannot sleep at night and our ears are broken. He is a low-class fellow who cannot fill his stomach. Being afflicted with hunger, he stays up all night. As soon as the devotees got halfway there, they heard the loud cries of ZrIdhara. The devotees followed that sound and quickly found ZrIdhara. “O MahAzaya, come. Come and see the Lord. Let us become glorious by your touch.” On hearing the Lord’s name, ZrIdhara became overwhelmed with exstasy and fell unconscious to the ground. The devotees quickly picked him up and carefully brought him before Vizvambhara (Sri Caitanya). On seeing ZrIdhara, the Lord was pleased and called him, “Come, come. You have worshiped Me so long. You have passed many lifetimes to obtain My love. In this lifetime you have also served Me so much. I always eat rice off of your banana leaves. When the Lord manifested His pastimes as a scholar, He acted like a most arrogant person. The Lord daily visited ZrIdhara’s shop and bought banana leaves, bananas and banana stems. He would daily quarrel with ZrIdhara for two hours and then buy his goods for half price. The Lord would say, “O brother zrIdhara, why do you live like an ascetic when you have so much wealth? Then ZrIdhara would stand up, grab hold fo the goods, and a tug-of-war would ensue. ZrIdhara asked, “Are there no other shops? Go there and buy leaves cheaper.” The Lord replied, ”I will not give up My supplier. Take My money and give Me stems and bananas. On seeing the Lord’s beauty, ZrIdhara would become overwhelmed and smile. Then Vizvambhara (Sri Caitanya) would jubilantly speak harsh words to him, “You buy ingredients that you regularly offer to the Ganges, so what is wrong if you give Me a discount? I am the father of the Ganges, whom your regularly worship. This is the thruth Iam telling you.” ZrIdhara then covered his ears and exclaimed, “ViSNu! ViSNu!” Seeing the Lord so arrogant, ZrIdhara then gave Him the leaves and stems. In this way they both regularly quarrelled with each other. In this way the Lord enjoys the gifts of His devotees and does not glance at millions of gifts offered by nondevotees. As ZrIdhara was brought before Sri Caitanya, the Lord said, “O ZrIdhara, look at My form. Today I will award you the eight mystic perfections. The exalted ZrIdhara raised His head and saw that ViZvambhara (Sri Caitanya) was blackish like a tamAla tree. He held an enchanting flute in His hands, and BalarAma stood at His right side. ZrIdhara saw the entire place was filled with a bright effulgence. He saw goddess Laxmi offer betel nuts into the hand of the Lord and the four headed BrahmA and five headed Ziva offer prayers to the Lord…. On seeing this, ZrIdhara was struck with wonder. As such, he reeled and fell to the ground. The Lord ordered, “Get up. Get up, ZrIdhara.” ZrIdhara than regained consciousness by the words of the Lord. The Lord said, “ZrIdhara, offer prayers to Me.” ZrIdhara replied, “ O Lord, I am most foolish…” The Lord then said, “Your words alone are prayers to Me”. By the order of the Lord, SarasvatI appeared on ZrIdhara’s tongue and he began to offer prayers.
  5. Friday, April 13, 2007 Dasami "The following things should be given up on Dasami, the day before Ekadasi. eating on bell-metal plates, eating any kind of urad da, l, eating red lentils, eating chick-peas, eating kondo, sport eating spinach, eating honey, eating in another person's home, eating more than once, and sex. Saturday, April 14, 2007 Krsna-ekadasi. Varuthini Ekadasi (<- Link to read the glories of this Ekadasi) (fasting). Beginning of Tulasi-Salagrama Jala-dana.
  6. Originally Posted by SBV Narayana M., Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 "…While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. … " This quote has been already given. Here it is the answer: 1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma. The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda. And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, … 2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is - neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila.) - nor to first get rid of anarthas, as Narayana M. would let the audience to believe: "If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart." In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly: vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH | zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA || bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM | hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39) “One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.” 3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”But If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them? This is not the process recommended by the shastra. Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get. According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.
  7. Dear brajeswara das, dandavats<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Anadi, it is all about the proper mood. All our activities could be bhakti if we had the proper mood. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This level, you describe here is at least bhAvA-bhakti, when the sadhaka attained the proper mood and accordingly is attached to bhakti activities as described by Srila Rupa Gosvami.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wish to differentiate some activities from others, <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> To differentiate depends on one’s discrimination power or intelligence. <o:p></o:p> Krishna Himself says that He gives one buddhy or the discrimination power by which one perform those activities that brings one to His abode. <o:p></o:p> Not all the activities lead to the same results.<o:p></o:p> Not all sadhanas are bhakti sadhana.<o:p></o:p> Sri Krishna says:<o:p></o:p> ye yathAmAM prapadyante tAMs tathaiva bhajAmy aham The result of what you get, depends on (sadhana) the way you worship, or meditate on Me.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Shovelling sand from one place to another is bhakti if I am following the instructions of my bona fide spiritual master…<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. This is not stated in the shastra.<o:p></o:p> 2. Your bona fide might be for another sadhaka not bona fide.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Shovelling sand from one place to another is bhakti … if we had the proper mood.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If you would have the proper mood you won’t do it. See the bhakti practices.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So please get over the specifics of the action. Abandon all worldly activities and simple engage in the the Divine service of the Lord by serving His servants. And if the instructions from His servants is to take a role in a play as a sudra, then we should happily do that if we have the proper mood.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. His servants won’t say that if you would have the proper mood.<o:p></o:p> 2. By playing the role of a shudra, you don’t get the proper mood<o:p></o:p> 3. If you would have the proper mood you would never do that, but would follow The Teachings to the mind:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma na adharmaM rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda.<o:p></o:p>
  8. <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> 1. Why should be demoniac to tell young devotees to remain monks. Demoniac is to think that you are the enjoyer. 2. I never said all the young devotees should remain monks. .......Whenever Jagadisha dasa baba had any difficulty in lila-samarana (remembering the pastimes of the Lord) he sought the favor of the Vaishnavas, or of the raja (the holy dust of Vrindavan). .............<o:p></o:p> </td></tr></tbody></table> Dear sucandra, dandavats, as you quoted mea above you said: "dear Anadi, I said "demoniac" because in the West we don't have the situation of Jagadisha dasa baba who lived in the Holy Dham. If Vaishnava children in the West dont become monks they are enforced to enter kali-yuga society and enforced to associate with all those dangerous entanglements of kail-yuga." <o:p></o:p> <o:p>reply:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. Jaghadisha dasa first lived outside of the Holy Dham and was a successful doctor.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. Any society in any yuga (maybe except krit-yuga) is bad, except the society of the vaishnavas, and all other societies are more ... or less demonic, because they all aim to sense enjoyment. you added: <o:p></o:p> "If you insist to not install a safety belt called DVD, which enables people to stay in the association of Vaishnavas" Reply: <o:p></o:p> 1. DVD is no safety belt, and does not enables one the stay in the association of the realized vaishnavas. A realized Gaudiya Vaishnava will not bear the sepparation from Vrindavan.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. Following the teachings of Sri Caitanya is the safety belt, following the teachings of his specially empowered writers of Gaudiya Bhakti is the safety belt.<o:p></o:p> Following these theachings and preaching these teachings to your children is safety belt:<o:p></o:p> - live in the society of the spiritual realized vaishnavas – sadhu sanga<o:p></o:p> - chant the holy name – name kirtana<o:p></o:p> - hear and study the lilas of the Lord – bhagavat shravan<o:p></o:p> - live in the holy land of mathura mandala - mathura vasa <o:p></o:p> - worship the murti of the Lord with faith – sri murtira shraddhaya sevan.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And follow sharanagati.... is safety belt. you also wrote: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "you just repeat what happened so many times, sending your God given children to kali's slaughterhouse if they are not willing to live like the six goswamis." Reply: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If you yourself don’t practice and follow accordingly, how can you ask it from your children?<o:p></o:p> Bad association is always possible. DVD is not an exception as long as obviously it is colored by the material gunas.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The so called dvd gives not automatically association with the vaishnavas, but with sense enjoyers that under circumstances may pose as vaishnavas, because they would chant the holy name, but their chanting will never become pure as long as they are entangled in material activities. You added: <o:p></o:p> Obviously you didn’t consider it necessary to carefully study the situation of Vaishnava children in the West past years and how they clearly demand for good material education, good job and marriage although being brought up in Vaishnava families. Reply: <o:p></o:p> As long as they long for good material education, good job and marriage, it means that either they were not properly educated or didn't have enough bhakti sukriti. And even under these circumstances they still may choose a job which respects the four principles of liberation. you wrote: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You suggest to simply reject ones kids and let them enter kali-yuga when they dont agree to become monks. reply: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. They entered kali-yuga before their birth. This was their own made destiny.<o:p></o:p> 2. To engage in bhakti practices one does neither need to be a monk nor to follow the practices of varanashram dharma, one needs only bhakti-faith, which comes out of bhakti-sukriti not varanashram dharma-sukriti. you wrote: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ... in order to fullfill Lord Caitanya's vision of globally spreading the Holy Name we have to think for all the people and not just for our own situation. reply: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Think first of yourself, a drawn person cannot save another drawn person. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>you wrote:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If people see you can nicely raise your children without being worried what will happen when they are 16 then this is called accepting what is favourable for devotional service. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>reply:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It depends on the bhakti-sukriti you gave them, and mostly the bhakti-sukriti from their previous lives, not from varnashram dharma sukriti. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>you wrote:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If people see in large scale kids of Vaishnavas turning out to become rejects of their own parents, this you call good preaching and successfully spreading the Holy Name? <o:p></o:p> <o:p>reply:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> If such kids of vaishnavas are rejected by thier own parents, it means, either thier parents had not enough time to educate them, or their education was bad, or those kids had not enough sukriti for bhaki you wrote: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Please, think according time and circumstance and not in the paradigm of dogmas. Reply: <o:p></o:p> In any time and any circustances one who desires to follow Gaudiya Vaishnavism, should follow the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives of Vrindavan.<o:p></o:p> Their teachings are not dogmas, but following DVD can become a future Iskcon dogma, having no suport from the shastra.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>
  9. dear Theist, It is Bhumipati dasa's translation the edition from 1998.
  10. Dear brajeshwara dasa, Dandavat<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “Eating isn't a part of bhakti, unless you offer it to the Lord. Then it becomes prasadam, and a part of your bhakti.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Eating is never a part of bhakti.<o:p></o:p> Acceptance of prasadam (mercy) also in the form of the remnants of the Lord, when done in the proper mood and meditation is part of sadhana bhakti, otherwise is ajnata sukriti. <o:p></o:p> You also wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “Alone varnashrama dharma or anything else is separate from bhakti unless you connect it to the Lord.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply: There is a logic falacy: You don't connect something to the Lord. You try to connect yourself to Him through a process. <o:p></o:p> The karmic process of vanashram dharma is not a way to connect himself with the Lord. One who is practicing one limb of sadhana bhakti as chanting the Holy Names of the Lord and many other processes which are not limbs at bhakti, should not deceive himself in thinking that whatever else he does would connect Him with the Lord, i.e it would be sadhana bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also wrote<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Renouncing all duties pertaining to the world doesn't mean renounce all duties pertaining to the Lord. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Who said that renouncing all duties pertaining to the world would mean one should renounce one’s duties pertaining to the Lord. (Varnashram dharma is not a duty pertaining to the Lord)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is only one duty: to serve the Lord out of love (and Varnashram dharma is not in this category). <o:p></o:p> This service out of love is called divine devotional service. So as long as one has not love, one cannot do bhakti.<o:p></o:p> As such one is engaged in sadhana bhakti, a kind of service on the material platform whose goal is to awake the divine love – bhAvA by which one can starts to do divine devotional service.<o:p></o:p> This is our duty in the beginning: to perform sadhana bhakti so that the dormant love may wake up.<o:p></o:p> In this connection one should understand who is the best servant?<o:p></o:p> The best servant is the one that loves the Lord at most.<o:p></o:p> Shastra says that Radha is the best servant of the Lord, because Her love is the most exalted. <o:p></o:p> And in this connection Krishna can be best pleased by us, if we serve the best servant.<o:p></o:p> That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest.<o:p></o:p> We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.<o:p></o:p> You also wrote If Guru says to do something, we do that. If he says institute daiva varnashrama dharma, then doing so is bhakti because we are following the order of the spiritual master.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I never heard of this bhakti Siddhanta, can you please bring evidence for the fact that<o:p></o:p> 1. if guru tells you to practice something else than a limb of sadhana bhakti, <o:p></o:p> 2. than what you practice, and is not a limb of sadhana bhakti, <o:p></o:p> 3. becomes automatically a limb of sadhana bhakti, because he said, you should practice it.
  11. Sri Krishna Caitanya shows the Universal Form to Advaita and Nityananda as revealed by Sri Vrindavan Das Thakur in Caitanya Bhagavata Madhya lila Chapter 24.38-63: Arit-yoga advaiter punaH punaH bADe ekezvara zrIvAsa-aGgane gaDi’ paDe As Advaita’a lamentation steadily increased, He rolled around alone on the ground of ZrIvasa’s courtyard. kAryAntare nija-gRhe chilA vizvambhara advaitera Arti citte hala gocara Vizvambhara (Sri Caitanya), who was engaged in some activities at His own house, understood the lamentation of Advaita. bhakta-Arti pUrNakArI sadAnanda rAya AilA Advaita yathA gadagaDi’ yAya The ever blissful Lord relieves the distress of His devotees. He therefore came to that place where Advaita was rolling on the ground. Advaiterea Arti dekhi’ dhari’ tAGra kare dvAra dIyA vasilena giyA viSNu-ghare On seeing Advaita’s lamentation, the Lord grabbed His hand, took Him inside the ViSNu temple, closed the door, and sat down. hAsiyA ThAkura bale - ”sunaha AcArya! Ki tomAra icchA, bala ki vA cAha kArya? The Lord smiled and said, “Listen Acarya! What is Your desire? Tell Me, what can I do for You?” Advaita balaye, - “tumi sarva veda-sAra tomArei cAhoG prabhu, ki cAhiba Ara” Advaita replied, “You are the essences of all the Vedas. I simply want You, O Lord. What else could I need?” hAsi’ bale prabhu, - “ami ei ta’ sAkSAte Ara ki AmAre cAha bala ta’ AmAte” The Lord smiled and said, “I am right here. Tell Me what else You want.” Advaita balaye – “prabhu kahilA su-satya Ei tumi sarva-veda-vedAntera tattva Advaita then replied, “O Lord, whatever You said is completely true. You are the only subject matter of the Vedas and the VedAnta. tathApiha vaibhava dekhite kichu cAi prabhu bale, - “ki vA icchA bala mora ThAni” “Still I wish to see some of Your opulence.” The Lord said, “Tell Me exactly what You want.”
  12. <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Originally Posted by suchandra<o:p></o:p> Anadi, dandavats, thing is that lets say you become a grhastha Vaishnava and your children also eventually want to get married. Is it ok for you that all those grhastha Vaishnavas go for work to the karmis in order to pay the bills and maintain their families? But this is what you're teaching. This is of course demoniac to tell young devotees listen in our movement you can be only monks and if you want to have family this is not possible because family require money and where should this come?<o:p></o:p> </td></tr></tbody></table><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> All these points have been refuted in the previous post.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also wrote:<o:p></o:p> I think it is misunderstanding bhakti to think that daiva-varnashrama is outside of bhakti. If it is userful in the service of sadhana, then it is part of bhakti. My answer: <o:p></o:p> The shastra says clearly that varnashram-dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, namely is outside of bhakti: At the end of His Gita Sri Krishna says that one should discard all kinds of dharma and take him alone as shelter - atma-nikśepa– offering the self to the Lord - which is part of sharanagati, the doorway to bhakti. <o:p></o:p> Not varnashram dharma is useful for bhakti, but sharanagati. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Here are again the quotes, that seemingly you didn’t read or ... understand:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66) Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya, Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Caitanya Mahaprabhu also rejected varnashram dharma, and His followers too. It may arise the question if one really follows Mahaprabhu... and in which extend. <o:p></o:p> To refresh you memory here they are again the quotes:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There are six symptoms of self-surrender: (1) anukulyasya sańkalpa – The vow (sankalpa) to accept those things that are favourable- Anukulyasya (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema). (2) Pratikulyasya-varjana – (the vow) to reject those things that are unfavourable (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema). (3) rakśiṣyatiti viśvaso – to have firm faith –vishvas that the Lord is the only protector, that there is no protector other than the Lord, and that one cannot obtain real protection by any other activity, or anyone else . (4) goptṛtve varaṇaṁ – to have firm faith that the Lord is the real maintainer. (5) atma-nikśepa– offering the self to the Lord, expressed in this attitude: “I am incapable of doing anything independently. Unless the Lord desires, no one can do anything.” Devotees who have no other resort (atmaniksepa) have this kind of faith. (6) karpaṇye – to be humble, expressed as follows: “I am very fallen and insignificant.” Out of compassion for the fallen souls, Sri Krisna Caitanya came to this world with His personal associates and divine abode Sri-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu jīve doyā kori’ swa-pārṣada swīya dhāma saha avatari’ To freely distribute ecstatic love of God, which is very difficult to obtain, He taught saranagati, the six limbs of surrender to the al Attractive One. This saranagati is the very life of the true devotee atyanta durlabha prema koribāre dāna śikhaya śarańāgati bhakatera prāńa Humility, dedication of the self, acceptance of the Lord as one's only maintainer and protector dainya, ātma-nivedana, goptṛtve varańa ‘avaśya rakṣībe kṛṣṇa’—viśvāsa, pālana Accepting things favorable for devotional service, an rejecting the unfavorable. bhaki-anukūla-mātra käryera svīkara bhakti-pratikūla-bhāva varjanāṅgikāra The prayers of anyone who submits unconditionally to six-fold surrender, are heard by the youthful son of Nanda Maharaja, the all attractive form of the Lord - Sri Krishna<o:p></o:p>
  13. Dear Sucandra, dandavats as I said <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style="height: 38.65pt;"><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; height: 38.65pt;">I reject the practicing and proliferation of dvd, not because is an invention of “Prabhupada” going back to some ideas of the Gaudiya Mat founder , but because this is against bhakti, as taught in the original Gaudiya Vaishnavism<o:p></o:p> </td></tr></tbody></table> Anadi, dandavats, thing is that lets say you become a grhastha Vaishnava and your children also eventually want to get married. Is it ok for you that all those grhastha Vaishnavas go for work to the karmis in order to pay the bills and maintain their families?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Sucandra, <o:p></o:p> As you put it, it must be horrible to work for „the karmis”. <o:p></o:p> But as a married person...you always work for „the karmis” ( in the varna-ashram system too).<o:p></o:p> Horrible would be to practice a profession that goes against the four principles of freedom...<o:p></o:p> and the matter of fact you work to sattisfy your own material desires, due to your material attachments, until you come to the level of renunciation, and you retreat in the holy dhama and dedicate yourself entirely to bhajana under the proficient advise of your bhajana shiksha guru.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You also said:<o:p></o:p> But this is what you're teaching. This is of course demoniac to tell young devotees listen in our movement, you can be only monks and if you want to have family, this is not possible, because family require money and where should this come?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. Why should be demoniac to tell young devotees to remain monks. Demoniac is to think that you are the enjoyer.<o:p></o:p> 2. I never said all the young devotees should remain monks. Everything is freely. One can follow one path or another... but... one should not forget that there is an after family life: one should let behind family and society and dedicate entirely to bhajan.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> For example: <o:p></o:p> Jagadisha Dasa Babaji came of a respectable Brahmin family of Vardhaman in <st1:place w:st="Bengal</st1:place">. He was a very successful doctor. He used to practice in Kalana. At the age of fifty he dook initiation from siddha Sri Bhagavan dasa babaji of Kalana. Soon after that, he renounced the world and came to Vrindavan, where he lived for some time in the old <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Bengal</st1:place>. He was a very successful doctor. He used to practice in Kalana. At the age of fifty he dook initiation from siddha Sri Bhagavan dasa babaji of Kalana. Soon after that, he renounced the world and came to Vrindavan, where he lived for some time in the old <st1:place w:st="on">temple </st1:place>:PMadana Mohan</st1:place>, but later shifted to a small cottage in Kaliya-daha. Baba’s life was simple and austere. He lived on madhu-kari (begging eatables from the inhabitants of Vrindavan) and did not take salt. Bhagavan das babaji ordinarily advised his disciples to do only Harinama-japa, but he considered Jagadish das to be above the ordinary in devotion. Therefore he initiated him in Raganuga-bhajan. Practicing bhajana according to the raganuga sadhana bhakti, he used to be mostly absorbed in deep meditation. Sometimes he would be so absorbed that he would be unaware even of the food kept befor him by his disciple for eating and it would remain untouched till he regainded outer consciousness. Sometimes people would come to see him, perform dandavat and sit down before him but he would not know about their arrival until the absorption was over and someone told him about it. He would then feel very uncomfortable and think that he had commited an aparadha (offence) against the visitors. To guard himself against the aparadha, thereafter, when he sat outside his cottage; he put shalagrama shila (a round black stone found in river Gandaki and worshipped by devotees as a form of Vishnu) in front of him so that the dandavat (obeissances) might be to shalagrama, not to him. Whenever Jagadisha dasa baba had any difficulty in lila-samarana (remembering the pastimes of the Lord) he sought the favor of the Vaishnavas, or of the raja (the holy dust of Vrindavan). One day, when he had not revelation of lila, he went as usual to Shringar-vat for madhu-kari in the evening. Premananda Gosvami, who was at that time the adhikari (presiding authority) of Sringar-vat said, “Baba, what is the matter? Why do I not see the usual exaltation and brightness on your face today?” Baba replied, “What shall I say? My stars are dull today. I stay in need of your benediction.” Gosvami-ji understood what he meant. He advised him to roll in the raja. He began to roll on the ground in the courtyard of Shringar-vat. As he was doing so, he began to feel that the flood-gate of the current of Krishna lila, which had been closed against him, had to reopened. <o:p></o:p>
  14. Dear beggar, dandavats, <o:p></o:p> Varna-ashram dharma is no sukriti for bhakti.<o:p></o:p> Mixing it with angas of bhakti might create the sensation one performes bhakti, and instead of it one performs ... „book distribution” to finance himself and the familiy or the temple one is living in, or both, in the name of distributing sukriti for bhakti, under the false illusion he is practicing bhakti, chanting 16 rounds and thinking of ... „book distribution” ... "distributing bhakti" and by that his possible future place in Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> What they miss is the association with the carriers of bhakti, the association with Radha-Krishna katha, not the changing of society.<o:p></o:p> Bhakti doesn’t point on the changing of society but on the change of the individual.<o:p></o:p> Bhakti is an individual journey under guru’s assistance, far away from society. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>In the beginning and stil nowadays in the gaudiya mat they give babaji vesha, but as Iskcon is the second wave of inventions (and distortions) there is no babaji vesha in Iskcon, than Iskcon is two times farther from the traditional Gaudiya Bhakti.<o:p></o:p> I’ve seen many devotees from Gaudiya Mat that buy original books from the Traditional Gaudiya followers, (in bengali or hindi) and they know more than the iskcon people, that are not allowed to read even books from the second source: the Gaudiya Mat. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This invention of "phlagu vairagya" and that „everything” should be used in Krishna’s service is 1. against the first rule of self surrender anukulyasa sankalpa: one should use only that which is favorable for Krishna’s service - implementing varna-ashrma dharma isn't. 2. against the second verse of Upadeshamrita<o:p></o:p> -atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together (as in the case of varnashram dharma) destroys bhakti <u1></u1>-prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti <u1></u1>-prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma and the politics involved in it)– destroys bhakti <u1></u1>-niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti <u1></u1>-jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like those engaged in varnashram dharma)–destroys bhakti <u1></u1>-laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <u1> </u1>
  15. Dear Sucandra, dandavats I reject the practicing and proliferation of dvd not because is an invention of “Prabhupada” going back to some ideas of the Gaudiya Mat founder , but because this is against bhakti, as taught in the original Gaudiya Vaishnavism<o:p></o:p> Please remember the significance of the second shloka of Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca<u1:p></u1:p> prajalpo niyamAgrahaH <u1:p></u1:p>jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca<u1:p></u1:p> SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti: <u1:p></u1:p>-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together (as in the case of varnashram dharma) destroys bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>-prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>-prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma and the politics involved in it)– destroys bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>-niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>-jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like those engaged in varnashram dharma)–destroys bhakti <u1:p></u1:p>-laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Bhakti is Absolute, that means Bhakti is its own support. It does need no support from anything …like … varnashram dharma.<u1:p></u1:p> Rupa Gosvami says that one’s endeavors for something else than bhakti, destroys the delicate plant of bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Narada Muni condemns Vyasadeva because he taught Varnashrama dharma in the Vedas. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>jugupsitam dharma-krite 'nusasatah <u1:p></u1:p>svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah <u1:p></u1:p>yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito <u1:p></u1:p>na manyate tasya nivaranam janah (S.B. 1.5.15) <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>The conditioned people itarah use varanshram dharma dharma-krite for their natural prepensity to enjoy (the material objects of the senses)-svabhava-raktasya, which is, to be condemned jugupsitam and unreasonable vyatikramah.<u1:p></u1:p> Thus iti fixed sthitah under those instructions yat-vakyatah (of varnashrama dharma, that Vyasadeva compiled) the people janah will not think na manyate of that tasya; renunciation nivaranam and to follow those true instructions anu-sa-satah -of the great dharma mahan dharmah (bhakti dharma).<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Accordingly they will chant thinking of sense enjoyment, and maha mantra which is like cintamani will fulfill those desires (life time after life time) by watering the seeds of those desires, not the seed of bhakti, whose delicate plant is suffocated by the plants of material desires.<u1:p></u1:p> Maha Mantra is like a fertilizer that follows the mind and fertilize those plants where the mind goes.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>So, one should purify the mind ...but Varnashram dharma is the opposite of ceto darpana marjanam. One should follow sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami and his followers.<o:p></o:p>
  16. Dear Murali d. dandavat,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You quoted SB1.2.13 as an evidence that one should follow varna-ashram dharma:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">In Srimad Bhagavat Purana 1.2.13 Sūta Gosvāmī uvaca: ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ sv-anuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <o:p></o:p> But Sri Caitanya, the same Sri Krishna, rejected entirely this idea as being external to bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You continued:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Activities that bring pleasure to Sri Hari must not be abandoned; engaging in false [monkey-like] renunciation, abandoning the responsible role we have within society, is condemned by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> 1. Bhakti activities are much more pleasureble for Krishna that discharging one’s duties in varnashram, which not even is related to yoga, and amongst those who are engaged in yoga, the most dear to Sri Krishna is the one do hari bhajan – bhakti activity.<o:p></o:p> 2. Not perfoming one’s duties in varnashram dharma is not false renunciation, maybe your guru says so, but Sri Krishna doesn’t, please see below:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> As you brought this evidence <o:p></o:p> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful reactionsGita, 18.47 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <o:p></o:p> 1. this quotation does not uphold your statements.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. Bhakti is outside varnashram dharma and in this connection Sri Krishna says that if you want to come to bhakti, you should not fear about sinful reactions, that might come because renouncing varnashram dharma, as He says later:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66) Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya, Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Than you gave this very inaccurate translation to Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.20.9 tāvat karmāṇi kurvīta na nirvidyeta yāvatā mat-kathā-śravaṇādau vā śraddhā yāvan na jāyate One should continue performing daily and periodic varnasrama activities until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification and develope faith for hearing and chanting about Krishna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is not said in the verse, but: <o:p></o:p> "As long as yāvat faith śraddhā is not awaken najāyateorvā as long as yāvatāone is not engaged nanirvidyeta in hearing in the beginning śravaṇādau about my pastimes mat-kathā one should execute kurvita activities according varna-ashram dharma karmāṇi."<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The verse doesn’t say that until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification one should perform daily and periodic varnasrama activities, but until one is engaged in preliminary activities of bhakti like in the beginning the hearing about the pastimes of the Lord is most important, or one had not attain the faith (of association with the carriers of bhakti) one should do karma (activities according varnaashram dharma)<o:p></o:p> Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma : karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17) Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound. 1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation. 2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be - akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma. - akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya) - akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema 3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari. karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 ) "That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma. That person is linked (with the Lord/ spiritual world), although she acts (in this world)." The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is not (the real) action, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive, and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature<o:p></o:p>
  17. Dear bija, dandavats you wrote: <o:p></o:p> Dear bija this is quite a realization of the Krishna Samhita 5.2…sorry... you quoted: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> If you take the Bhagavatam you will see that Naranda doesn’t say these things.<o:p></o:p> 1. Describing the material world is not the same as describing Vakuntha, even if we make it in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord. The material world is another type of play-ground for the Lord, than Vaikuntha. He comes in the material world … even with his own Vaikuntha abode and his own parikars.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2. They are not considered material or spiritual because of our conviction. The material world is different from the spiritual one not because of our conviction, but independent of it. The spiritual world is never created, and its substance is the spiritual love. <o:p></o:p> The material world is a transformation of the spiritual energy, through the will of the Lord. The material world is created and destroyed and its substance is the false identification, which takes the form of the three gunas (material modes of nature). Etc… you know all that… You contiunued: Dear Bija this is not true, see the above evidence.and added Yoga-maya acts on the level of the soul on the cit level, the level of consciousness, and consciousness means attachment, by which a sadhaka attains Krishna consciousness - attachment for Krishna, not for maya (maha-maya).The true is that we get out of maya (maha-maya) We get out of maya when we cut asunder the knot which ties us to it, the very substance of the material world – the false identification, by which the sense of enjoyment of the illusory potency disappears. And we do it through yoga, liking us to the Lord, through the internal potency Yoga-maya. <o:p></o:p> Bhakti-yoga emphasizes the linking through the Hladini potency of the Yoga-maya, whereas other types of linking may emphasize the spiritual existence potency – sat or the spiritual knowledge potency – cit. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->The material environment might be very nurturing, when is doveteiled to remember Radha-Krishna, but: 1. For a sadhana-bhakta the material environament is a continous danger of enticement (I have seen sanyasis in Gaudya Math - not only from the west, who gave descriptions of Radha Katha with tears in their eyes and than fall in love with the girlfriend of my friend). 2. For a siddha, the pain of separtation when comming out of samadhi is so excruciating that with every moment of his life he wants to deliver his body, what to say of this world being for him... Vraja (Vaikuntha). See Vilapa Kusumanjali. 3. And on the level in between (of bhava bhaktas), one goes deep into bhajan and don’t have any attraction for the material world anymore, we get on the level of manasic seva which is much more powerful than the external one, we are like in Vraja, not that this material world is Vaikuntha.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In this connection here it is an excerpt from the life of siddha Jagadisha Dasa Babaji of Kaliya-daha:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Baba’s life was simple and austere. He lived on madhu-kari (begging eatables from the inhabitants of Vrindavan) and did not take salt. Bhagavan das babaji ordinarily advised his disciples to do only Harinama-japa, but he considered Jagadish das to be above the ordinary in devotion. Therefore he initiated him in Raganuga-bhajan. Practicing bhajana according to the raganuga sadhana bhakti, he used to be mostly absorbed in deep meditation. Sometimes he would be so absorbed that he would be unaware even of the food kept befor him by his disciple for eating and it would remain untouched till he regainded outer consciousness. Sometimes people would come to see him, perform dandavat and sit down before him but he would not know about their arrival until the absorption was over and someone told him about it. He would then feel very uncomfortable and think that he had commited an aparadha (offence) against the visitors. To guard himself against the aparadha, thereafter, when he sat outside his cottage; he put shalagrama shila (a round black stone found in river Gandaki and worshipped by devotees as a form of Vishnu) in front of him so that the dandavat (obeissances) might be to shalagrama, not to him.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>
  18. Dear wonderful bija, my Dandavat to you,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You wrote: I not need the be convinced, I have to prove it; <o:p></o:p>and ... I did it, showing the inconsistency present in those quotations. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Reply:<o:p></o:p> Words are very important in conveying information, and logic based on shastra is also very important. By this Krishna gives buddhi – discrimination power, by which one extracts the essence. Pedantic means to be interested more in that which refers to form but not to the content.<o:p></o:p> What I care about, is the accuracy of the content, because people follow all kinds of blurred concepts, which in the beginning does not even need to be so accurate, when they convey some general knowledge on a subject. But if one wants to go deep into the matter, the accuracy is of utmost importance. When one discusses the philosophical principles regarding for example sadhana bhakti one should rely on the original scriptures not on second rate writings, which are commentaries not realization based on samadhi as presented by some gurus, and may even distort the original meaning. I previously gave as evidence the own words of Bhaktivinoda regarding this illusion of reading his commentaries on the shastra – which ...should have been divine transmissions from the Absolut plane in the state of samadhi, as some gurus say about the books of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. This was not under discussion. I personally still like very much this Book of Bhaktivinoda, and the book will certainly help people on the way of understanding Gaudiya Bhakti, but still there are books which certainly are more accurate... and sweet.
  19. <o:p></o:p>Dear bija, danadavat, you quoted me <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> 3. Bhaktivinoda contradict Himself equalizing Maha-Maya – The Goddess ruling over the material worlds monitoring the external energy bahiranga-shakti with Yoga-Maya - The Goddess ruling over the spiritual worlds, monitoring the internal energy antaranga-shakti, because he says that one should take shelter of material items favorable for bhakti and for this reason the gopis took shelter of Yoga-maya. But Yoga Maya has nothing to do with any material items. So, his logic is ... (I have to say it) wrong. quote by anadi <o:p></o:p> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->and said: <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear bija, <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Let’s look very carefully to the statements of Bhaktivinoda Thakura from Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> First statement under debate:<o:p></o:p> 1. It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items…(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2) <o:p></o:p>Second statement under debate:<o:p></o:p> 2. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2) <o:p></o:p> This conclusion is drawn by Bhaktivinode allegedly based on the statement No.1 <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In the statement No.1 sadhakas should take shelter of (favorable material items) of Maha-maya. – first step of sharanagati <o:p></o:p> And according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura because of this (For this reason), should the sadhan-siddhas (living entities who have attained the mood of gopis) take shelter of Yoga Maya<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This logic is faulty because:<o:p></o:p> the activities of the sadhakas are not reasons for the activities of sadhan siddhas <o:p></o:p> Yoga-Maya is not Maha-Maya.<o:p></o:p> Taking shelter of favorable material items has nothing to do with the worshiping of Yoga-Maya, which is beyond the material . <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>you also quoted me: Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> it is hard to accept that he said something wrong, but you can see also in the Introduction (page 33) of his Krishna Samhita (1998 Edition, translated by Bhumipati das), he puts the prajapatis' beginning date at 4463 B.C. and other wrong data, and this of course doesn't say one should reject everything he wrote. There are many wonderful insights in this book of his, and I was very enthusiastic as I read it, but also a bit confused about statements that didn't suit with Gaudiya siddhanta. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> and replied: Reply: Where did Bhaktivinoda said that? and than you concluded: <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> Dear bija, I didn’t say I know better. I showed what is wrong in Bhaktivinoda’s statements, and that his statements are not always the Absolut Truth.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
  20. <o:p> </o:p>Dear bija, dandavat, You wrote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> These perfect sadhakas are called sadhan –siddhas you also said:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>Why do you say that only nitya siddha gopis were overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja and sadhan-siddha gopis were not?<o:p></o:p> All the young gopis of Vraja did it, the sadhan siddhas too.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
  21. Dear bija, Dandavat,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is nice to talk to someone who accepts shastra, and speaks in therms of shastra.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> You gave this quote:<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 1. It is not proper to project what sadhan siddhas do, on the level of the sadhaks should do.<o:p></o:p> 2. Taking shelter of favorable material items is not part of varnashram dharma but part of sharanagati : anuklyasa sankalpa <o:p></o:p> 3. Bhaktivinoda contradict Himself equalizing Maha-Maya – The Goddess ruling over the material worlds monitoring the external energy bahiranga-shakti with Yoga-Maya - The Goddess ruling over the spiritual worlds, monitoring the internal energy antaranga-shakti, because he says that one should take shelter of material items favorable for bhakti and for this reason the gopis took shelter of Yoga-maya. But Yoga Maya has nothing to do with any material items. So, his logic is ... (I have to say it) wrong. It is hard to accept that he said something wrong, but you can see also in the Introduction (page 33) of his Krishna Samhita (1998 Edition, translated by Bhumipati das), he puts the prajapatis' beginning date at 4463 B.C. and other wrong data, and this of course doesn't say one should reject everything he wrote. There are many wonderful insights in this book of his, and I was very enthusiastic as I read it, but also a bit confused about statements that didn't suit with Gaudiya siddhanta. As the sun cannot enjoy his shadow, krishna cannot enjoy maya.(k.s.3.14) <o:p>Krishna forbade His devotees from performing any activities others than those meant for maintaing their lives (from Krishna Samhita 5.10)</o:p> <o:p>That is why the real sadhakas that want to perform bhajan, only in the evening go in madhukari, otherwise being engaged in bhajan.</o:p>
  22. Dear Bjia, dandavat as I said <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">It seems quite logical, and the idea of proper vision sounds convincing...quote by Anadi. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> you replied: Dear Bjia,<o:p></o:p> Brahma Samhita, the book you quote from, is not a book of revelation, but a book of commentaries, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself says:<o:p></o:p> „I had a great desire to translate Srimad Bhagavatam in this proper swanlike way, but I have no time to translate his huge work. For this reason I am now extracting the main purport of this great literature and presenting in this form of this Sri Krishna-samhita.” <o:p>you also said:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> How can you be sure, if you don’t know?<o:p></o:p> The goal in the dharma shastra is not mixed; we have information in Srimad Bhagavatam about it: <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "O best among the twice-born, the highest perfection of the human being is to please Lord Hari by discharging one’s occupational prescribed duties according the divisions of varnashram." <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is the first type of perfection of life and it was first rejected by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. you added: <o:p></o:p> This 'skill in Krsna consciousness (skill in sadhana-bhakti)' doesn’t mean one should implement varana-ashram dharma, but according his material position one should do everything to implement sadhana bhakti in one’s life, you know… association with <o:p></o:p> sadhu saNga, nama kirtanan, bhagavat shravan, mathura vasa, sri murtira shradaya sevan <o:p></o:p> and prepare for <o:p></o:p> tan nama rupa caritady sukirtananu srmirtyo kramena rasana manasi niojiya/ tishtan vraja tat anuragi jananu gami kalam nayet akila iti upadsha sara, to first attain realization of Radha-Krishna, … this is the goal, not to built preaching centers, this is secondary, this is external. you said: Reply:<o:p></o:p> As already explained this has nothing to do with the implementation of Varnashram-dharma and secondly - maya cannot give <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. It is the will of Krishna by which He reveals to the devotee. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> How to follow the sadhan siddhas?<o:p></o:p> 1. of course not to worship Goddess Katyayani to get Krishna as husband, than for that one should be in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> lila, i.e one is no sadhaka anymore.<o:p></o:p> 2. their example of practicing the worshiping of a demigoddess to get Krishna as husband doesn’t mean a sadhaka should implement varna-ashrama dharma to attain Krishna, but according his qualification the sadhaka should practice sadhana bhakti, which of course is on the material platform of maya, by which the sadhaka use material senses and the material objects of the senses in sadhana bhakti, and in this connection one should see the instructions of Lord Caitanya to Sanatan regarding how one should dress, and what one should eat, to keep away the propensity to enjoy maya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>you also said:</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The perfection of our Naam Bhajana has nothing to do with the implementation of DVD, as long as … Nama Bhajana does not depend on it.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>
  23. </st1:place><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear bija, dandavat It seems quite logical, and the idea of proper vision sounds convincing, but the practice shows the opposite... <o:p></o:p>Let's take under scrutiny the quotes you gave . <o:p></o:p> The gopis were advised to worship Goddess Katyayani to get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as husband, because Katyayani vrata in oktober-november, fulfills the wish to marry the person one desires.<o:p></o:p> But Goddess Katyayani cannot give <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. She Herself has no access to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p> How did the gopis get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>? Because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> wanted so, not because of maya.<o:p></o:p> And secondly the gopis under discussion were not sadhakas but sadhan-siddhas<o:p></o:p> No sadhaka will follow such injuctions of varna-ashrama dharma.<o:p></o:p> This example is not an evidence that a sadhaka should take shelter of maya in the form of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth.<o:p></o:p> The gopis had no interest in taking shelter of maya in searching for the indescribable truth.<o:p></o:p> They renounce any dharma for the sake of love for Kishor Krishna Reply : This is agaisnt Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta. Nor Mahaprabhu, neither Rupa, Raghunata das, as the most prominent raganungas or their followers ever wrote about the social cultivation as an anga of sadhana bhakti, be it vaidhi or raganunga, but were against it. One of the reason Mahaprabhu chose Srimad Bhagavatam as the imaculate evidence is for the very reasons the rejects varnashram-dharma: </u1:p></u1:p>dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ<o:p></o:p> vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam<o:p></o:p> śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ<o:p></o:p> sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Herein (in Srimad Bhagavatam) atra the occupational duties dharmaḥ(varNa ashram) kaitavaḥ are completely rejected projjhita<o:p></o:p> and the highest knowledge paramaḥ vedyam for the pious ones nirmatsarāṇām satām (about) the truly vāstavam all auspicious śivadam Object vastu (the Supreme Sweet Lord) causing the uprooting unmūlanam of the threefold miseries tāpa-traya has been presented kṛte (as) the beautiful śrīmat opulent (and sweet) Lord bhāgavate by the great sage (Vyāsadeva) mahā-muni.<o:p></o:p> What kim others paraiḥ is to be needed vā ? By hearing śuśrūṣubhiḥ this śrīmat bhāgavate) quickly sadyaḥ the Supreme Lord īśvaraḥ will be arrested avarudhyate in the heart hṛdi by a pious one kṛtibhiḥ at once tat-kṣaṇāt<o:p></o:p>. Raghunatha das Gosvami says directly in his Teachings to the Mind that one should not endeavor for varNashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru<o:p></o:p> vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu<o:p></o:p> zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM<o:p></o:p> mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma adharmaM na rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p>
  24. Bija said: <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear bija dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> It seems that ... you are willingky reject Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. Obviously this is due to your attachement to the teachings of the “line”, you identify with, and in this case not only that these teachings are far from being essential for bhakti, but they are against bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I would try to remember you the significance of the second shloka from Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca<o:p></o:p> prajalpo niyamAgrahaH<o:p></o:p> jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca<o:p></o:p> SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti: <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma)– destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like the proponents of DVD)–destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Bhakti is Absolute, that means Bhakti is its own support. It does need no support from anything …like … varnashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> Rupa Gosvami says that one’s endeavors for something else than bhakti, destroys the delicate plant of bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Narada Muni condemns Vyasadeva because he taught Varnashrama dharma in the Vedas. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> jugupsitam dharma-krite 'nusasatah<o:p></o:p> svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah<o:p></o:p> yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito<o:p></o:p> na manyate tasya nivaranam janah (S.B. 1.5.15) <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The conditioned people itarah use varanshram dharma dharma-krite for their natural prepensity to enjoy (the material objects of the senses)-svabhava-raktasya, which is, to be condemned jugupsitam and unreasonable vyatikramah.<o:p></o:p> Thus iti fixed sthitah under those instructions yat-vakyatah (of varnashrama dharma, that Vyasadeva compiled) the people janah will not think na manyate of that tasya; renunciation nivaranam and to follow those true instructions anu-sa-satah -of the great dharma mahan dharmah (bhakti dharma).<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Accordingly they will chant thinking of sense enjoyment, and maha mantra which is like cintamani will fulfill those desires (life time after life time) by watering the seeds of those desires, not the seed of bhakti, whose delicate plant is suffocated by the plants of material desires.<o:p></o:p> Maha Mantra is like a fertilizer that follows the mind and fertilize those plants where the mind goes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So, one should purify the mind ...but Varnashram dharma is the opposite of ceto darpana marjanam. One should follow sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami and his followers. <o:p></o:p>
  25. Bija said: <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Dear bija dandavat pranam,<o:p></o:p> It seems that ... you are willingly reject Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. Obviously this is due to your attachement to the teachings of the “line”, you identify with, and in this case not only that these teachings are far from being essential for bhakti, but they are against bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> I would try to remember you the significance of the second shloka from Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca<o:p></o:p> prajalpo niyamAgrahaH<o:p></o:p> jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca<o:p></o:p> SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti: <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together (as in the case of varnashram dharma) destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma)– destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like the proponents of DVD)–destroys bhakti <o:p></o:p> <!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Bhakti is Absolute, that means Bhakti is its own support. It does need no support from anything …like … varnashram dharma.<o:p></o:p> Rupa Gosvami says that one’s endeavors for something else than bhakti, destroys the delicate plant of bhakti.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Narada Muni condemns Vyasadeva because he taught Varnashrama dharma in the Vedas. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> jugupsitam dharma-krite 'nusasatah<o:p></o:p> svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah<o:p></o:p> yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito<o:p></o:p> na manyate tasya nivaranam janah (S.B. 1.5.15) <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The conditioned people itarah use varanshram dharma dharma-krite for their natural prepensity to enjoy (the material objects of the senses)-svabhava-raktasya, which is, to be condemned jugupsitam and unreasonable vyatikramah.<o:p></o:p> Thus iti fixed sthitah under those instructions yat-vakyatah (of varnashrama dharma, that Vyasadeva compiled) the people janah will not think na manyate of that tasya; renunciation nivaranam and to follow those true instructions anu-sa-satah -of the great dharma mahan dharmah (bhakti dharma).<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Accordingly they will chant thinking of sense enjoyment, and maha mantra which is like cintamani will fulfill those desires (life time after life time) by watering the seeds of those desires, not the seed of bhakti, whose delicate plant is suffocated by the plants of material desires.<o:p></o:p> Maha Mantra is like a fertilizer that follows the mind and fertilize those plants where the mind goes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So, one should purify the mind ...but Varnashram dharma is the opposite of ceto darpana marjanam. One should follow sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami and his followers. <o:p></o:p>
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