tsaneladi

Good point and I agree. i was just trying to get to the substance of it and felt like I wasn't making a clear enough point. I think there is room for both and hope the both approaches are utilized to attract devotees in this difficult age of kali

My figures stand as tall and as your hatred , racism and bigotry. Come out of your unregistered hiding place and speak with the dignity of a human being, not some internet scuttlebum

The United States and it Euro colonial forerunners killed FAR more than Hitler over the 500 years of genocide it has perpetuated on the Indians. The facts are clearly documented. The BIA report of Indian health itslef suggest a figure over 1 1/2 times the Hitler massacre.

More of concern however is the crude, arrogant and sophmoric gibberish exhibited here by supposed KC devotees.

How can you claim to have read or understood anything in Bhagavad Gita and make remarks like that. Sad to be sure.

And the firewater crack is just plain racist. I wont honor such rascalry with a response

If one accepts the premise that all war is bad then the next logical conclusion is that the the United States, being the offender in a large number of such wars these days and killing millions through sanctions and warfare, is an evil empire.

That accepted, is it bad Karma to pay taxes knowing they support a war machine that perpetuates genocide on millions on an ongoing basis?

While I respect your contribution, I dont understand it. Can you possibly clairfy this post?

Lets assume that the dress is not Indian, although "eastern" nonetheless. I contend that most westerners view the KC dress as "eastern" and not western. My point is that it may play a significant role in devotional service for the wearer but is a significant distractant to the possible devotee who is viewing KC at first glance (and maybe last).

All that being true, I really am asking is it worth it to preach in "eastern" wear at the risk of alientating folks who might be interested in KC without the eastern customs and clothing?

One of the appealing and fascinating (and refreshing) aspects of Ramakrishna was his acceptance of all religions as valid portals to spirituality.

Even the Bhagavad Gita seems to indicate this is the case as Krsna speaks to the effect that "all roads lead to Me".

Certainly humility is an important factor in becoming one with the faith. An acceptance that others believe equally as strong in their beliefs and respecting that is an important part of humility.

It is a point, but of little consequence that these specifics may not be "Indian". What thye are NOt is western, and that is the crux of the question and the issue.

So is it then that the dress is to "remind" one of the spiritually historical past from which they come? This logic seems to rely heavily on the body and physical world being of importance, which I understand is the opposite of KC.

Please elaborate

Thnak you for these useful links

Yes, it was up again yesterday

While I agree that the message needs to be promoted in amanner more sympathetic to the cultures it is adressing, I am not sure that excludes ISKCON from what they have achieved and will continue to do.

It seems clear a new approach with new blood would unleach the ministry to many more people rather than all the gurus attemping to drink from the same well of devotees as we see happening now.

A conservative, yet western approach. Would it be such a bad thing if people were not put off by devotees at fist glance and instead hung in to hear them out. or how about more community servies to build trust among outsiders so they can comfortably soak in the KC philosophy.

Many Americans feel that KC devotees are weird dressers and always trying to sell them something. However you view that, it is certainly not helpful to establishing a long term basis for growth.

Is the message that we wear Indian clothes and will not adapt to western ways although we glady take their money, or is it to increase the ministry and give more poeple a chance to objectively view the KC philosphy?

The answer chosen will dictate the future of the movement in the west

I find the essay on Mormonism fascinating. And, if we seek to spread the word of KC then we must find a niche other than "weird"- which is how many initial onlookers percieve the Indian dress, etc.

So to me the question is, either maintain the integrity of the intial thrust by SP's Mahaprabhu movement or focus on spreading the word by restructuring the approach.Only so many are going to sift through the cultural shock to get the message. It took me over 20 years of approaching and reapproaching the Bhagavad Gita to finally "get it".

This is why I have asked on the Dhoti thread why the Indian culture seems to be so intertwined with the KC movement. I am not opposed to it, I just havent heard the reason yet.

Is KC not seperable from India and its customs (many of which are actually Muslim addaptations)?

Would Mahaprabhu want the message to be twarted by cultural differences? Or would he want the word spread in an uncomprimised manner that was not affected or comnected to cultural apparel or customs.

The future of the movement, I believe, lies in these debates.

I guess thats what i need to understand, WHY did he want people to wear the Indian style clothing ?

I havent made the plunge for the Veda base yet but I love the CD series with his dissertations and lectures. At 6 bucks a crack, i get a few at a time and listen to them repeatedly for great nectur and inspiration

I am not satisfied that SP not wearing jeans justifies cloning his fashion for his followers. He was obviouslt an Indian guru and not , say, a mechanic in Indiana where jeans might be the known and accepted apparel. The question still remains, is it neccesary to wear the dhotis and indian garb to be KC and why?

It seems to me that all KC organizations would encourage their followers to learn as much as they can from whomever they can associate with in the line of qualified gurus.

I cannot accept that ISKCON has any valid reason to withhold support from one of SP own associates, whether he is ISKCON or not. It is for that reason that I am troubled and a bit apprehensive about getting too involved with ISKCON

Try this link

http://www.iskcon.net/pmburg/

From a philosophical perspective, I have to say violence is always bad-coming from me. Since i don't feel qualifed to be objective as to the righteousness of such activiites, I simply refrain from this choice.

As a practical matter, I think the situation that warrants kill or be killed might bring me to a different level of understanding, but I cant say I know until it happens

they have a forum board they are trying to get started there as well

I am thankful for this link.

And i thought I had a long address book

This leads nicely into another question I have been pondering. Why is it deemed neccessary to include the Indian (and actaully some Muslim) customs in such a way along with the KC philosophy.

Is it impossible to seperate the two or would it be feasable for devotees to dress in jeans and t shirts and other western wear and still be adhering to the four regulative principles

To me there is room for the interpretations of both perspectives. I think that ISKCON will likely continue in the present form and a second realm will manifest itself based on the ritvik concept.

the issue I can't come to terms with is why certain spiritual,leaders are not allowed to speak to ISKCON devotees. This, especially in the case of H.H. NM seems quite odd given his long and enduring hsitory with Srila Prabhupada.

I can only add to this that when I had my chart done, I was told of special days that were based on the planets and positions of the earth, sun etc.

I was told that these days are BEST for doing the activities associated with that particular alignment. Increasing the odds as it were, but not an insurance policy.

I am interested in the phrase "spiritual communism". Did he see that as a frequent reference or is this a one time description for the sake of clarification.

Again, I find this to be at the crux of dedvotion. clearly, IMHO, he is saying not to kill the mice and rats and in fact to assist them. It is a very difficult choice to include rats in the presence of your children in the home.