muralidhar

Gaurachandra,

 

this is exactly my point.

 

Murali

Offence is the problem.

 

The real problem.

 

I get blamed for pointing out that Lalit Prashad's disciples have no sampradaya at all. But they have been saying we have no sampradaya for some years, and that is OK, isn't it Madhava? If I say that OBL Kapoor behaved in a duplicitious manner, I am right. We know OBL Kapoor pretended to be a friend of Srila Prabhupada so he could get some material assistance for publishing of his books. He guided Nitai to take initiation from some Baba, and advised Nitai to keep this "re-initiation" secret. Why? The likely answer is that if Prabhupada found out what part OBL Kapoor had played in Nitai's leaving ISKCON then Prabhupada would have disassociated himself from OBL Kapoor. And if that happened, Dr Kapoor wouln't be able to get any more assistance from Prabhupada.

 

Madhava, you doubt our Gurus are saints. But I look at the evidence and I consider OBL Kapoor to be no saint at all. Same for Lalit Prashad.

 

Murali

Madhava said:

If someone presents a piece of history not fitting into your world, it becomes aparadha.

<hr>

 

Nice ploy, Madhava.

 

Again and again I have seen abuse levelled at Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur by persons such as Premananda, Minaketana Ramadas and Nitai. I also consider Jagat's article to be extremely offensive. Then if I say that these people are being offensive and abusive... I am dismissed as a fanatical follower who cannot look at objective facts and make objective judgements.

 

Nice ploy. But look at the shrill, hateful things Nitai says against those great devotees who have taken Krishna's name and distributed it to the people of the world. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is attacked, and Srila Saraswati Thakur is attacked with hearsay stories that neither you nor Nitai can prove to be true. You yourself have quoted Nitai's stories. You don't seem to be bothered by the thought that it is an offence to criticize devotees who have dedicated their lives to spreading Harinama sankirtan around the world. But some other innocent people may read these stories spread by you, Jagat, Nitai and Premananda, and lose faith in Krishna because of what they read. And for all you know, Madhava, the stories of Nitai may be total lies.

 

<hr>

Madhava said:

(I) would be curious to know of any early references about Jagannatha Das Babaji's confirming the Janmasthan founded by Bhaktivinoda. I cannot avoid the thought that this story was fabricated later on, just as many other stories have been fabricated.

<hr>

 

Look again at Jagat's story about the "large piece of red sandstone" which is supposed to prove the existence of an old temple at "Prachin Mayapur". I really did laugh when I read the story. Someone dug 700 holes in the ground and found one "large piece of red sandstone". Then an "assembly of Vaishnavas" decided that this is undeniable proof that "Prachin Mayapur" is the real Mayapur. Next, they build a new temple on the site. This assembly of Vaishnavas had decided that the evidence was conclusive on the basis of finding... one piece of red stone. Why were they so eager to accept this flimsy bit of evidence as the conclusive "proof"? The answer to that question, we all understand.

 

If someone digs 700 holes in the ground and finds a piece of red stone it doesn't prove the red stone came from an old temple dedicated to Mahaprabhu. It doesn't prove the stone was part of any old temple at all. It could have come from a house. Moreover, in Nabadwip there are numerous Shaktas and even if the foundations of some old temple had been unearthed it wouldn't necessarily mean that the temple was a temple of Mahaprabhu. It could have been from some other Vishnu temple or a Shakta temple or Shiva temple. The red stone might even have come from the Red Fort in Delhi and fallen off a boat that was passing through Mayapur. Another possibility. A silly suggestion of course. But the idea that this find of a "red sandstone" is conclusive proof that Mayapur across the Ganga is not the real Mayapur is equally stupid. No archeologist trained as a proper scientist would ever accept this sort of evidence as definitive proof that "Prachin Mayapur" is the birthplace of Sri Gauranga.

 

Murali

Perhaps we might consider whether deception and dishonesty has also been perpetrated by Lalit Prashad and his followers.

 

Lalit Prashad's Guru, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, was "rejected" by Bipin Bihari Goswami, and thus Lalit Prashad was cut off from the Gaudiya Sampradaya(if you believe the line that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's connection is through Bipin Bihari). Yet Lalit Prashad and his followers claim that they are a genuine diksa-parampara sampradaya, coming from Bipin Bihari Goswami to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and then to Lalit Prashad.

 

Why do these people such as Premananda attack Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati as "a bogus guru" when they themselves are the ones who are cut off from the sampradaya? Dishonesty. Cheating and dishonesty.

 

Murali

From Nitai's web site

http://www.bhajankutir.net/third-issue.html

 

<hr>

Nitai wrote:

ISKCON and its parent organizations are something like loud noise makers, attracting the attention of the people of the world and drawing them nearer to the world of Caitanya Vaisnavism. Once those people are in orbit around Mahaprabhu it would be easy for some small percentage of them to make the transition into association with Mahaprabhu's authentic followers. If this thesis is correct, then making this transition, though important for some, is not for everybody. Some must remain locked out in the outer realm, at least for a few more lifetimes, in order that the process may go on, the siren may continue. This seems to be what has happened and is continuing to happen.

 

Maybe something like the understanding outlined above was in Dr. Kapoor's mind when he shattered my safe little ISKCON world by informing me of the absence of initiation in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math. He himself had taken re-initiation already from Gauranga Das Baba and I recall quite clearly his emotional description of the day on which he met his initiating guru (Baba). He and his wife were overwhelmed by tears of joy. They were literally drenched by their own tears. They recognized him immediately as their guru at their first meeting and he them. Dr. Kapoor's suggestion for me was that I take initiation secretly and remain within ISKCON. This was apparently what he had done, since he had kept up his relationships with his old Gaudiya Math god-brothers.

 

<hr>

Dr. Kapoor was not an honest man.

Madhava said:

Aside this, I would be curious to know of any early references about Jagannatha Das Babaji's confirming the Janmasthan founded by Bhaktivinoda. I cannot avoid the thought that this story was fabricated later on, just as many other stories have been fabricated. Haridas Dasji does not mention this incident in Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana, nor do I remember it being mentioned in O.B.L. Kapoor's "Saints of Bengal" (I don't have the book at hand right now). Perhaps Bhaktivinoda has published something about this in his Sajjana Toshani?

<hr>

 

Your question is based on the premise that our Gurus are liars who fabricate falsehoods. Who is being objective here, and who is prejudiced?

 

In regard to O.B.L. Kapoor, I would point out that he is not an honest person or a man of good character. If you take a look at Nitai's web site you will see that it was O.B.L. Kapoor who first influenced Nitai to have doubts about Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Yet at the exact same time, O.B.L. Kapoor was hanging around the temple of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and trying to get some material support so he could publish his books and promote his books, etc..

 

O.B.L. Kapoor involved himself in deception and cheating when he did this. He is not a pure Vaishnava. If he were a genuine Vaishnava then he would have been honest and straightforward in his dealings with Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

Murali

 

 

 

Madhava,

 

I read the extract you presented and the mention of the "large piece of red sandstone" that was found.

 

Tell me, what proof is there that this "large piece of red sandstone" is from a temple built in commemoration of the birthplace of Sri Chaitanyadeva?

 

Someone goes and digs 700 holes in the ground in Nabadwip. In one hole he finds a large piece of stone. Then "an assembly of Vaishnavas" decide the stone is part of the old temple built at the birthplace of Mahaprabhu.

 

Ha ha ha!!!

 

What a joke!!!

 

Most of the temples in Nabadwip town are temples of the Goddess.

 

There was no evidence or proof that this "large piece of red sandstone" is part of the old temple of Mahaprabhu.

 

Madhava says I should look at the real historical facts. But the lack of objectivity in the psuedo-archeological investigation by Vraja Mohan and his allies is laughable. One stone does not make a temple. Or prove the existence of a temple.

 

Murali

Yes,

They have no sampradaya at all. None.

 

Yes Madhava,

 

I must approach this matter from an objective "historical" standpoint. I am determined to deal with this matter.

 

Many attacks have been made against Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur and also against the Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

I intend to make a reply to the facts of history that we know about. But I don't think I could ever change the opinions of someone involved in publishing criticizism of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Certainly I will never quote anything written by any offender against Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in any document I ever put together.

 

Murali

SRI DASA-VIDHA NAMAPARADHA

The Ten Offences to the Holy Name

(to be carefully avoided by the devotee)

 

hari-nama mahamantra sarvva-mantra-sara

yadera karunabale jagate pracara

sei nama-parayana sadhu, mahajana

tahhadera ninda na kariha kadacana [1]

 

Hare Krishna Mahamantra -

of all mantras the best,

Throughout the world is preached

by saints with divine potent grace;

Such saints are to the Name devoted,

such saints are pure souls great:

Never dare offend them -

dare not show them hate.

vrajendranandana krishna sarvvesvaresvara

mahesvara adi tara sevana-tatpara

nama chintamani krishna-chaitanya-svarupa

bheda-jnana na karibe lila-guna-rupa [2]

Lord Krishna, son of Nanda,

of all lords the Leader -

The great Siva and all the gods

serve His feet forever;

The touchstone of the Name

is Krishna incarnate -

His Pastimes, Nature, Form also

never think of them as separate.

 

"guru krishna-rupa han sastrera pramane

guru-rupe krishna kripa kare bhagyavane"

se gurute marttya-buddhi avajnadi tyaji

ista-labha kara, nirantara nama bhaji [3]

"Guru's a form of Krishna-

the Scriptures corroborate;

In the form of Guru,

Krishna blesses the fortunate."

Never offend that Guru

by thinking him mere mortal;

Gain your highest objective -

serve the Name for time eternal.

 

sruti, sruti-mata saha satvata purana

sri-nama-charana-padma kare nirajana

sei sruti-sastra yeba karaye nindana

se aparadhira sanga karibe varjjana [4]

The Vedas with Mother Gayattri

and Srimad-Bhagavatam

Illuminate the Lotus Feet

of Sri Hari's Name;

Whoever vilifies

those Holy Vedic Scriptures -

Never keep their company,

know them as offenders.

namera mahima sarvva-sastrete vakhane

atistuti, hena kabhu na bhaviha mane

agastya, ananta, brahma, sivadi satata

ye nama-mahima-gatha sankirttana rata

se nama-mahima-sindhu ke paibe para?

ati-stuti bole yei-sei duracara [5]

The Glories of the Name -

all Scriptures praise with exaltation;

Dare not think their praise

to be exaggeration,

Agastya, Ananta, Brahma,

Siva, etc., ever

Sing the Glories of that Name

with full-hearted fervour.

Who can cross the ocean

of the Glories of that Name?

Whoever says the glories of Sri Nama are 'exaggerated'

have their sin to blame.

 

krishna-namavali nitya golokera dhana

kalpita, prakrita, bhave - apardhi-jana [6]

The Holy Names of Krishna -

eternal wealth of Goloka:

Whoever thinks those Names imaginary,

mundane, - he is an offender.

name sarvva-papa-ksaya sarvva-sastre kaya

sara-dina papa kari sei bharasaya -

emata durbbuddhi yara sei aparadhi

maya-pravañcita, duhkha bhuñje niravadhi [7]

All Scriptures say the Name

all sin it can destroy,

But those who spend their time in sin

making it a ploy -

Such a wicked attitude

is that of an offender

Deceived by illusion,

perpetually they will suffer.

atulya sri-krishna-nama purna-rasa-nidhi

tara sama na bhaviha subha-karmma adi [8]

Incomparable Name of Krishna -

the treasure of ecstasy:

Never dare compare it with

auspicious piety.

name sraddha-hina-jana - vidhata-vañchita

tare nama dane aparadha suniscita [9]

Those who are faithless toward the Name -

deceived by Providence:

Giving them the Holy Name

surely is an offence.

suniyao krishna-nama-mahatmya apara

ye priti-rahita, sei naradhama chara

ahamta mamata yara antare bahire

suddha krishna-nama tara kabhu nahi sphure [10]

Despite them hearing of the infinite

Glories of Krishna's Name,

Those whose hearts don't melt in love

are rascals of ill fame;

Only pride and avarice

their thoughts and words do yield

The Pure Name of Krishna

to them is never revealed.

ei dasa-aparddha kariya varjjana

ye sujana kare hari-nama sankirttana

apurvva sri-krishna-prema labhya tara haya

nama-prabhu tara hride nitya vilasaya [11]

Casting off these ten offences, leaving no exception,

Those pure souls who chant the Name

in Holy Congregation -

The miracle of Love for Krishna

they will surely taste,

The Name Divine Himself will shine forever

within their hearts, pure and chaste.

 

<hr>

Tridandi-bhiksu Sri Bhakti Sundar Govinda

Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math,

Kolergañj, Nabadwip, Nadia

2nd April, 1989

I will not make any comment about this now.

 

This is a very serious statement indeed that Jagat has made.

 

Srila Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaj had the transcendental vision to see Sri Mayapur manifest at the Yoga-pitha, and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur also felt that Mahaprabhu's birthplace was there in Mayapur.

 

Muralidhar das

Shvu said:

The Jiivan-mukta is only to the eyes of the onlookers. We refer to that body as a Jiivan-mukta, although there is no Mukta per se. The concepts of illusion, reality and liberation again exist only to those who are under the spell of the illusion.

<hr>

Shvu says that something which doesn't exist (jiva) is doing things.

 

Shvu, can't you see the absurdity of this? How can something that doesn't exist cause some events to happen?

 

Murali

Jndas said:

Lord Krishna states in the Gita, "Fools deride me when I descend in a human form. They do not understand my supreme nature as the Lord of everything." (Gita 9.11) Krishna is bhuta-mahesvara, and His nature is param-bhavam. If you think arrows can kill him, or that he gets indigestion, you are failing to see his param-bhavam.

<hr>

 

Hare Krishna!

 

 

Jndas said:

Lord Krishna states in the Gita, "Fools deride me when I descend in a human form. They do not understand my supreme nature as the Lord of everything." (Gita 9.11) Krishna is bhuta-mahesvara, and His nature is param-bhavam. If you think arrows can kill him, or that he gets indigestion, you are failing to see his param-bhavam.

<hr>

 

Hare Krishna!

 

 

This discussion reminds me of something.

 

I had a friend who was initiated by Srila Prabhupada of ISKCON in 1972. Later, he left Vaishnavism altogether and became a Buddhist. He was initiated by a Tibetan monk and he studied Buddhism for some time. But my friend found it difficult to resolve a particular question that kept bothering his mind. He had a question that he couldn't find a meaningful answer for within Buddhist philosophy. This was his problem:

 

According to Buddhism, "I" only exist when I am in illusion but "I" will cease to exist when nirvana is realized. This being the case, what sense does it make to try and attain nirvana since "I" will not exist when "I" attain it?

 

My friend gave up Buddhism after some time, and in the end he decided to go and meet with Srila Sridhar Maharaj and get some good guidance. He had lost faith in materialism, then lost faith in Vaishnavism, then lost faith in Buddhism. After all those things happened he decided to go to meet Guru Maharaj in Nabadwip. But when he was going to Nabadwip he was killed by a truck that came up on the sidewalk and ran over him.

 

Life is short. Don't waste your time arguing about stupid nonsense. Chant Hare Krishna!

 

 

Either we conclude that the world really does exist, in which case we conclude Sankara was wrong when he said "the world is false".

 

Or we accept the absurd suggestion that the world doesn't exist.

Weird things you say...

 

How can the world be real before mukti and not real afterwards?

 

Either the world is real or it is not real.

 

Murali

I have not read all of Sankara's writings. I cannot speak with authority about what he said or didn't say.

 

But Sankara taught, "brahma satyam jagan mithya", or in English, "The Eternal is true, the world is false".

 

If people really believe this teaching of Adi Sankara then why do they want to engage in debate with other people? Entering into a debate implies entering into a duality, or entering into a situation where "I" am opposing "Not I". It is all a battle of egos, isn't it?. So why bother with this battle taking place in the world? The false world that doesn't really exist anyway. Why debate against illusion? Isn't it "I" who is lost in illusion anyway? Better that "I" simply say nothing.

 

Murali

Only ten verses are accepted as really having been written by Adi Sankara?

 

BTW, it is not just ISKCON devotees who think that Sankara wrote all the Bhaja Govinda verses.

 

I copied the quote from and picture from a site related to Satguru Siva Subramuniyaswami.

 

Shvu said:

If a liberated soul feels attractions, he is not liberated...not according to Advaita at least.

 

Perhaps such an idea is possible in a school of thought where a liberated soul can still perceive Vishnu et al. and is also capable of emotions such as attraction and repulsion. But according to Advaita, there in no more duality after liberation, which rules out the possibility of preceiving Vishnu or anything else. For this reason, Shukha getting 'attracted' to

stories of Krishna although he was liberated, is not Advaitic.

 

<hr>

 

Perhaps this is your understanding. But Adi Sankara himself said "Bhaja Govinda"

 

That was his instruction to his disciples.

<hr>

 

 

Bhaja Govindam of Adi Shankara*

 

Verse 1: ~~~~~~

BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM, GOVINDAM BHAJA MUDHAMATE

SAMPRAAPTE SANNIHITE KALE NA HI NA HI RAKSHATI DUKRINKARANE

 

Worship Govinda! Worship Govinda! Worship Govinda! Oh fool, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.

 

Verse 19: ~~~~~~~

YOGARATO VAA BHOGARATO VAA SANGARATO VAA SANGAVIHEENAH

YASYA BRAHMANI RAMATE CHITHAM NANDATI NANDATI NANDATYEVA

 

 

Whether one is immersed in yoga or is revelling in bhoga (i.e, outward enjoyment), whether he is enjoying himself in social company or has retired into solitude, true happiness certainly cannot be his; but who alone is revelling inwardly in Brahman, (wherever he be), he alone will be truly happy and will verily enjoy.

 

Verse 20: ~~~~~~~

BHAGAVADGEETA KINCHIDADHEETAA GANGAAJALALAVAKANIKAA PEETAA

SAKRIDAPI YENA MURARISAMARCHAA KRIYATE TASYA YAMENA NA CHARCHA

Even a little study and understanding of the Bhagawad Gita, or sipping of even a tiny drop of the waters of the holy Ganges or even a little worship of Murari -- these will surely save one from confrontation with death!

 

Verse 21: ~~~~~~~

PUNARAPI JANANAM PUNARAPI MARANAM PUNARAPI JANANEE JATARE SAYANAM

IHA SAMSAARE BAHUDUSTAARE KRIPAYAA(A)PAARE PAAHI MURARE

Undergoing the pangs of birth again and again, passing through the throes of death again and again, lying in the mother's womb over and over again, this process of samsara is hard to cross over. Save me from it, Oh merciful Lord !

 

I believe Kartik has properly represented Advaita-vada philosophy. But....

 

sutah uvaca

atmaramas ca munayo nirgrantha apy urukrame

kurvanty ahaitukim bhaktim ittham-bhuta-guno harih

 

sutah uvaca--Suta Gosvami said; atmaramah--those who take pleasure in atma

(generally, spirit self); ca--also; munayah--sages; nirgranthah--freed from

all bondage; api--in spite of; urukrame--unto the great adventurer;

kurvanti--do; ahaitukim--unalloyed; bhaktim--devotional service;

ittham-bhuta--such wonderful; gunah--qualities; harih--of the Lord.

 

TRANSLATION

 

All different varieties of atmaramas [those who take pleasure in the atma, or

spirit self], especially the sages, though freed from all kinds of material bondage,

feel an attraction for the Personality of Godhead. Vishnu (Urukrama) possesses

transcendental qualities and therefore He can attract everyone, including liberated souls.

Srila Sanatana Goswami has discussed this topic in detail in his book Brhad Bhagavatamrtam

 

You can find the book here

http://www.mandala.com.au/brhad/2_3.htm

 

Sayujya mukti is discussed in detail these three chapters:

Chapter Two: Jnana Nama (Knowledge)

Chapter Three: Bhajana Nama (Worship)

Chapter Four: Vaikuntha Nama (The Divine Abode)

 

Murali

Madhava,

 

I came across these verses in Bhagavatam after we had that conversation regarding the nity-baddha status of the jiva.

 

I never got round to posting this information, but I found these verses quite interesting, especially:

 

yatreme sad-asad-rupe pratisiddhe sva-samvida

avidyayatmani krte iti tad brahma-darsanam

 

---

How do you take the meaning of this, in regard to the conversation we had before about the origin of the jiva

 

I said the jiva in his pristine state is a pure spiritual being and that the jiva is sat-chitananda. My reading of this verse is that Bhagavatam is saying that when a jiva attains (siddhi) to the state of "self-realization" (sva-samvida) he "becomes situated in his own glory".

According to Bhagavatam the absolute truth is realized in three phases, Brahman, Paramatma, Bhagavan. My reading of the verses I posted above of Srimad Bhagavatam (1.3.31-34) is that these verses of Bhagavatam are speaking about Brahman realization, as for example in the case of Sukadev or the Kumaras.

 

Theist, in the verses you presented it speaks about "The liberated devotee", but the verses I quoted speak about a jiva attaining realization of the "unseen, unheard and unmanifest" (brahma-darsana). This type of realization is the realization the followers of Shankara are aspiring to attain.

 

In that state of brahma-darsana there is no mood of bhakti. The soul is simply enjoying being "situated in his own glory".

JNDas,

 

The part of Tattva viveka I really liked was where Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said the concept of "Satan" was first taught by Zoaraster, but then his idea was picked up by the Jewish prophets, the Christians and Muslims. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur goes on to say that "Satan" is an imaginary being who only exists in parables.

 

Also, do you know where I can find the full text of this translation (Kusakratha's translation) of Tattva Viveka?

 

Murali