theist

Yes I have heard of ekalavya. We have different understanding of the word disciple. One of the basic requirements to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to chant at least 16 rounds of the Hare Krishna mantra daily. No way do I even come close to this. I am not trying to put myself down or to sound humble I am simply trying for an honest self evaluation. And where do you get off telling me I should stop promoting his philosophy? Anyway back to the thread topic.

Student of Eastern Philosophy maybe if you want to keep it kind of vague.

Primate, I take eternal fire to refer to material desires. Eternal damnation is to be eternally afflicted by these incessant desires driving us deeper into madness while never finding any satisfaction. Eternal damnation then can be seen as synonomous with "eternally conditioned" for to be condition to material life is clearly a damned state of being. What the Popes or other Christians think it means may be something quite different. I am convinced one cannot make much sense philosophically of the Bible until one has read Vaisnava literature, and then it just opens up.

People are always seeking a label to place on me and causing a similar problem. I just tell them I am a soul trying to live a God conscious life and learn about God. I mention that for learning about the personal attributes of God i find the teachings of Srila Prabhupada to be astonishing and so concentrate there while making it clear I am not a member of any religious institution or personal disciple of his. I also make it very clear I am not a Hindu or Christian or any such thing. People feel they need categorize everyone they meet so they can call upon their preconceived vision of what you are as a means of relating to you. Of course then they are not relating to you at all but as a part you are playing according to their pre-determined script which they carry in there head. We all do this as it is the way of the material world of names and phantom forms.

Wow. This is some very subtle teaching.

Nor am I trying to have it both ways. In all my posts over the last decade you will not find one where I claim to be a disciple of any guru including Srila Prabhupada. Not that Srila Prabhupada is not Jagad guru, i fully accept that he is, but to be a disciple of someone means to be fully under the discipline that he prescribes. So I don't qualify as a disciple. I have chosen to try and learn about Krishna from the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. I have disagreements with him on some other points, like accepting the cosmology of the SB. the literal historical reading of many of the happening recorded in the Puranas and Mahabharata and the need for cows milk. I do accept Srila Prabhupada's position as a 100% pure devotee of Lord krishna and therefore any action committed by him in the service of Lord Krishna is faultless although from the material point of view there may be some visible fault. A most rare position. Everyone is that I see I consider to be still karmically bound to greater and lesser degree On another point I don't believe in blindly accepting what any guru says. Srila Prabhupada writes in a Gita purport that "blind following is condemned". I take those words seriously. These points are not a secret. I have stated them many times before when needed. The way I see it learning how to be Krishna conscious in the material world may entail making different choices on some things than the predecessors have done. An example would be on one hand Lord Caitanya clearly said there are no hard and fast rules for chanting the names of God. yet Srila Prabhupada was very specific on how he wanted kiratans to be conducted in his temples with certain songs and tunes. That was for his Iskcon. This doesn't mean others who sing with different instruments and tunes outside of Iskcon are somehow "unbonedfide" or wrong. Anyway this is another subject. On this cow protection thing it is up to each individual to reconcile within themselves the fact that when they offer commercial milk to Krishna they are supporting the cow slaughter industry and therefore DIRECTLY going against the instruction to protect cows. Do we really think Krishna is going to die without our offering of milk from unprotected cows? This is silliness. "But the tortured and murdered cows get some sukriti fromthe offering so we are really being compassionate upon them". This is one of the lamest arguements going. It isan attempt at using the mercy killing argument. here is an idea for a substitute. Make some almond milk to offer to Krishna. No tree is hurt in the process and the soul of the almond trees will get sukriti and the devotees won't be seen to be engaged in hypocrisy on the cow protection issue. After the soul in the cow body and the soul in the almond tree are to be seen on an equal level so why not help them?

You need to get some basic education on this subject gHari. The fact there are so many cows is because the demons keep the cows pregnant and having offspring for profit. Now they find they have over produced and hurt their own market. Learn the subject just a little bit then have an opinion. Blaming vegans for the death of these cows is really out there.

Kindness and decency means you stop supporting cow slaughter just so you can have a glass of milk with your breakfast. Give up your wishing for "hope" and do something practical.

We know that death is rarely a serene event. Long term illness to death often means heavy medication leading up to the soul's departure. These drugs heavily influence the brain & mind, dulling it considerably in most cases. Sometimes death arrives suddenly and violently as in a car wreck, some other accident like falling off a high place or even murder. The confusion and fear at such times will be considerable. We can and must do our best to prepare ourselves but that will always be lacking. At least though we can show Krishna we are serious in our efforts and rely on His promise to remember what we have and carry what we lack.

Now that is chanting from the heart.

Really very beautiful Smaranam. What of the Alzheimer sufferer that can't even remember his own name let alone God's at the time of death? It could be anyone of us. The need to place ourselves under the mercy of the Lord is an imperative. Why should we let one more moment pass before we completely humble ourselves before Him? We have no idea what the next moment will bring. Not to do so is gambling with our very selves at stake.

No matter how engaged in devotional practice we may think we are we should not take it for granted that we will remember Krishna at the time of death. Success in Krishna consciousness is not a mechanical thing. It is personal and is dependant on the mercy of the Lord. The priests who were conducting the sacrifice for King Nabhi to have a son like the Supreme Person prayed: TRANSLATION Srimad Bhagavatam 5.3.12 Dear Lord, we may not be able to remember Your name, form and qualities due to stumbling, hunger, falling down, yawning or being in a miserable diseased condition at the time of death when there is a high fever. We therefore pray unto You, O Lord, for You are very affectionate to Your devotees. Please help us remember You and utter Your holy names, attributes and activities, which can dispel all the reactions of our sinful lives. PURPORT The real success in life is ante nārāyaṇa-smṛti—remembering the holy name, attributes, activities and form of the Lord at the time of death. Although we may be engaged in the Lord’s devotional service in the temple, material conditions are so tough and inevitable that we may forget the Lord at the time of death due to a diseased condition or mental derangement. Therefore we should pray to the Lord to be able to remember His lotus feet without fail at the time of death, when we are in such a precarious condition. In this regard, one may also see Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (6.2.9–10 and 14–15).

So because cows marked for dairy production are allowed to live a little longer before being slaughtered it makes it ok?!? They are allowed to live by the demon exploiters because they want to 1) profit off their milk production. 2) profit off the sale of calves to be slaughtered for veal. 3) Produce more female calves for dairy production replacing their mothers when the mothers are sent to slaughter. Did it ever occur to you that animals like cows have a God given life unto themselves? You have bought into the demonic idea that their only purpose was for the sense pleasure of human beings. There is no way to tweek the factory farming process here and there to make any aspect of it ok, as in letting some live longer while they are being exploited for their milk before being slaughtered is tolerable somehow.

You are so funny sometimes gHari.

TRANSLATION Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhāgavata Purāṇa propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhāgavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyāsadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhāgavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.

Babrhu, Kurma das's arguement is a health based one, listing various sources that claimed to show the detrimental effects on the body of the foods in question. I have nothing to say about that. Some praise both foods for their health bestowing properities. Maybe garlic and onions have benefical and detrimental properties both. I wonder how he would deal with commercial cow's milk. Would he be against the use of commercial cow's milk (blood milk) whose list of health destroying properties is far more agreed upon then anything relating to onion and garlic. Just a curiousity on my part.

Try to understand this sentence from Srila Prabhupada.

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gHari's arguement is an old one I have offered by the meat eaters against vegetarians and vegan who protest eating meat. Buying milk from enslaved and slaughtered cows is direct support to the cow killers and bears no resemblance to the scenario he presents. When you purchase meat or milk that is a direct request for them to slaughter more cows. It's called demand and supply as they replace that which you purchased. Silly word games won't free you from the karma.

Superstition or simple natural phenomenon? It doesn't matter as long as we mark the occurence with increased chanting of the Lord's Holy Names. We can chant to be protected from the evil influence of the event, or to be protected from repeated birth and death and most certainly just to please the Lord. It's all good. From the Sampradaya Sun Solar Eclipse pits 'Superstition' against Science BY: PHIL HAZLEWOOD An Indian astronomy researcher explains solar eclipses in Kolkata on July 19. Indian astrologers are predicting violence and turmoil across the world as a result of this week's total solar eclipse. [Photo: AFP/Deshakalyan Chowdhury] Jul 21, MUMBAI, INDIA (!) — Science continues to express its bewilderment in the area of divinely arranged phenomenon. Indian astrologers are predicting violence and turmoil across the world as a result of this week's total solar eclipse, which the superstitious and religious view as a sign of potential doom. But astronomers, scientists and secularists are trying to play down claims of evil portent in connection with Wednesday's natural spectacle, when the moon will come between the Earth and the sun, completely obscuring the sun. In Hindu astrology, the two demons Rahu and Ketu are said to "swallow" the sun during eclipses, snuffing out its life-giving light and causing food to become inedible and water undrinkable. Pregnant women are advised to stay indoors to prevent their babies developing birth defects, while prayers, fasting and ritual bathing, particularly in holy rivers, are encouraged. Shivani Sachdev Gour, a gynaecologist at the Fortis Hospital in New Delhi, said a number of expectant mothers scheduled for caesarian deliveries on July 22 had asked to change the date. "This is a belief deeply rooted in Indian society. Couples are willing to do anything to ensure that the baby is not born on that day," Gour said. Astrologers have predicted a rise in communal and regional violence in the days following the eclipse, particularly in India, China and other Southeast Asian nations where it can be seen on Wednesday morning. Mumbai astrologer Raj Kumar Sharma predicted "some sort of attack by (Kashmiri separatists) Jaish-e-Mohammad or Al-Qaeda on Indian soil" and a devastating natural disaster in Southeast Asia. An Indian political leader could be killed, he said, and tension between the West and Iran is likely to increase, escalating into possible US military action after September 9, when fiery Saturn moves from Leo into Virgo. "The last 200 years, whenever Saturn has gone into Virgo there has been either a world war or a mini world war," he told AFP. It is not just in India that some are uneasy about what will transpire because of the eclipse. In ancient China they were often associated with disasters, the death of an emperor or other dark events, and similar superstitions persist. "The probability for unrest or war to take place in years when a solar eclipse happens is 95 percent," announced an article that attracted a lot of hits on the popular Chinese web portal Baidu.com . Sanal Edamaruku, President of the Indian Rationalist Association, dismissed such doomsday predictions. "Primarily, what we see with all these soothsayers and astrologers is that they're looking for opportunities to enhance their business with predictions of danger and calamity," he told AFP. "They have been very powerful in India but over the last decade they have been in systematic decline." Astronomers and scientists are also working to educate the public about the eclipse. Travel firm Cox and Kings has chartered a Boeing 737-700 aircraft to give people the chance to see the eclipse from 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). Experts will be on board to explain it to passengers, some of whom have paid 79,000 rupees (1,600 dollars) for a "sun-side" seat on the three-hour flight from New Delhi. The eclipse's shadow is expected to pass over the aircraft at 15 times the speed of sound (Mach 15), said Ajay Talwar, president of the SPACE Group of companies that promotes science and astronomy. "It's coming in the middle of the monsoon season. On the ground, there's a 40 percent chance of seeing it in India. On the aircraft you have almost a 90 percent chance of seeing the eclipse," he added. Siva Prasad Tata, who runs the Astro Jyoti website, straddles the two worlds. "There's no need to get too alarmed about the eclipse, they are a natural phenomenon," the astrologer told AFP. But he added: "During the period of the eclipse, the opposite attracting forces are very, very powerful. From a spiritual point of view, this is a wonderful time to do any type of worship. It will bring about good results, much more than on an ordinary day."

You may be hearing word games but I am not playing any. Prabhupada said not to be concerned with the differences between the allegorical stories in Bhagvatam vs. modern science. Instead he advised to "take the essence" of Srimad Bhagavatam and not be bothered by lesser subject matters. Yes I said lesser subject matters. Who the present manu is irrelevant when compared to krishna-lila. I am indifferent to the manu's and kings of old or the wars between the asuras and devas for planetary control. But I give up on you. I am totally indifferent to what is your opinon on the matter. Hare Krishna

Exactly! This point of cow protection being the essential point has been stated many times but for some reason rarely acknowledged. I personally cannot digest milk products so would be vegan in any case but no one I know expects this for the temples.

I will answer this one. Yes one should also become indifferent to all material subject matter by becoming Krishna conscious, even in the Bhagavat Purana.

Ganeshprasad, You continue to ignore the post I kept quoting from Dasomi. This is my third and last request to you to respond in detail to that post. It is obvious why you want to ignore but until that is done there really is nothing more to add to our conversation. Hare Krishna

Thanks JNdas and crew.