narayanadasa

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand. A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. Barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God exists." Why do you say that?" asked the customer "Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things." The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbers shop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair & an un trimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barbershop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist." "How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber. "I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards like that man outside." "Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me." "Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

Jai Sriman Narayan: Dear Mr. Shivite, Unless you quote the verses or the translation or the source of your information there is no way to verify the authenticity. Everything has to be read in the context of what is said i.e. we cannot just take some verse from inbetween the vedas and make interpretations from that verse alone - this is true with scientific thesis too. Right now, I have'nt heard of any such thing, so would wait to check with someone authoritative on the vedas.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Please read the book "God, Rebirth and Vedas" ISBN 8122405061. You will find common scientific examples about rebirth, God and proof that Vedas are God-Given.

Jai Sriman Narayana: >Yes, but why does science make wrong assumptions< As far as theory of evloution or theory of atomic science is concerned, the answers are not available anywhere. Scientists have to make assumptions about things they can't prove. They won't remain idle after making any assumption, instead they will constantly validate any new finding based on that assumption and if any finding violated their assumption, they'll reject their won't fundamental beliefs open heartedly and come up with new theories. yes, science does that makes an assumption now (someone misguides people based on this! - this is wrong) and then discards that and makes fresh assumptions. In over 100 yrs, theory of evolution hasn't failed and all new discoveries & excavations are in line with Darwin's theory. So this is the "most" proven theory about evolution of man. > even when the right answers are available< Where are the answers available? Only in religious scriptures, the same religious scriptures also say earth is static and immobile and sun revolves around earth, which has been disproved with solid evidences. Please don't say you still believe earth is immobile and that there is no solar system!! Oh God! Where do scriptures say this? Can you please quote the verses or the translation... I am really interested to know where you found this. Already great scientists like Galileo & Darwin have suffered in the hands of biblical fanatics, I hope we don't go back to those dark ages! Yes indeed, historians say that there probably was a lot of political interference even at the time of Darwin in propounding his theory. But, unlike the Biblical fanatics, the Vedics never interfered in propounding wrong theories because words of Vedas has always been true. Just check it out whether you will find atleast one verse out of 10000000+++ verses with words like "May be", "I think", "Probably" etc.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Scientists are by nature very inquisitive, they always search for answers and if their current belief doesn't give them an answer, some even go to the extent of discarding their belief, while others stick to it reluctantly. Yes, but why does science make wrong assumptions even when the right answers are available. I dont deny that it later accepts the same and corrects itself. Scientists are by nature very inquisitive, they always search for answers and if their current belief doesn't give them an answer, some even go to the extent of discarding their belief, while others stick to it reluctantly. No, RP doesnt say God manifested. God was always there (in fact he alone was there originally, he has no beginning). He however manifested in different forms (like Matsya, Kurma, Vamana, Rama, Krishna etc) for the sake of his devotees. Instead, he has given us choice to lead a good life or bad life, only guaranteed good deed is showing love and compassion to fellow human beings, and in my humble opinion that is a sure ticket to realizing god. How then did man originally know that there is something called Good and Bad? How did man know that there is something called compassion? Science especially has to answer this question because according to science language too was created by Man. According to Vedas languages are also God-Given (man took basic words and created more words and sentences like man took Tele and Vision and coined the word Television).

Thanks Anand (picked your name from your signature). Dear Mr. Shivite, The Aacharya was indeed a scientist and professor in IIT a few years ago but later sacrifised his career after realizing the flaws of science and is now serving humanity and God by spreading Vedic truth. Please read one of his books "God, Rebirth and Vedas" ISBN 8122405061 which gives good scientific explanation to Vedas. This book is especially for those who say Vedas are not scientific. The Aacharya however does not critisize Science too.. he said Science by itself may not be bad becaise it has the courtesy to admit it flaws when more information is available and rectify itself. But, given the fact that science cannot be absolutely correct at a given point of time (due to human analysis defect, mostly) why do scientists present the theories as absolute. For example (from one of Srila Prabhupada's lectures): Scientists say life is made of chemicals,but when you tell them whether they can create life when they are given the chemicals, they are not sure. But, I am curious about one thing: If I understand correctly (from this thread and some others as well), you believe in God but not in his words (i.e Vedas). You also dont believe in Aacharya. Then how do you go about realizing truth?

Jai Sriman Narayan: I heard from an Aacharya tha Darwins theory had most of the statements (about 1000 or more times) beginning with words like It seems Probably Perhaps It appears In all probability etc This shows that Darwin himself was'nt sure of what he was telling. So, it can only be theory not a reality or a philpsophy by itself as someone made it.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Just thinking more on the topic... Fate is something predestined or something that is not under your control whatsoever. Although certain things are not under our control in this life, we definitely can make our future (next life) better by living good today. We just need to accumulate good Karma. Thinking back on the same lines to the extent we went back our lives to our very first birth can we say it was our fate that we are still here today? No, fate, because nobody pre-destined anything for us to be here.... it was our own decision to get in touch with material nature and in the process accumulate karma and continue to be here.. God gave us what WE desired. When we say "Fate" we tend to leave the responsibility for that with God. This is wrong because we are responsible for what we do, not God. We need the support of God to do Karma too (both Good and Bad as we desire) and God will provide support for both.. we have the choice. Again, it is our responsibility to choose, not our fate. So, if I understand your answer correctly, are you telling that "Fate is the sum-total of Karma"? If so, is it fate that determined what I was in my previous lives? and is it fate that determines what I will be in my next life? Thinking again, fate as a literal dictionary meaning doesnt equate to Karma. I may be wrong or going too far with the discussion. Please feel free to stop me if necessary.

Jai Sriman Narayan: In my opinion Fate is generally mentioned by those who dont believe in Rebirth (or may be those who are not even aware). As I posted in another thread, they sometimes find strange things in the world that they cannot answer easily (by mental speculation) like for eg: if they find one baby born handicapped and another born well, they generally call it fate. Then they may tend to say that "God is partial that he made the babies different" which tends to conflict with their own religious beliefs that God is impartial. But, if we believe in Rebirth, then we do have another answer to this question i.e. Karma. So, God made the 2 babies different not because he was partial but because the souls in the 2 babies had different Karma attached and they have to experience different things on earth to get rid of their respective Karma. Now, can experiencing Karma be called fate? because "experiencing Karma" is mandatory, right? Any thoughts?

Jai Sriman Narayan: Being the oldest religion (Sanatana Dharma) I am not sure if any *original Hindu scriptures* would really talk about accepting or rejecting other religions. Remember even the word Hindu is not there in any of the scriptures... the work Hindu was coined by invaders who could'nt pronouce Sindhu (a river).

Jai Sriman Narayan: Found more information on the topic: http://ngodse.tripod.com. No conclusions yet.... just posting information I found

Jai Sriman Narayan: I heard in a Pravachanam by an Advaita Aacharya where he refers to Hindus (or in general people who believe in Rebirth) are the only "non-fate" believers in the world. I think the Aacharya also has a book by name "God, Rebirth and the Vedas (ISBN 8122405061) an English translation of Kannada book Prathama Sopana". I believe this book is basically the content of the Pravachanam he gave 2 years ago. So, what I am trying to say is whether it is Vaishnavas or Shaivas the basic concept of fate is not really believed in the real sense. I hope to ask this question to a Vaishnava AAcharya too. Hope this is useful.

Jai Sriman Narayan: If it is the fate of the fish to be killed and eaten that no one can stop it. As you cannot stop and accident from happening. ••karma means action... if fate is the sovereign why we kall karma instead of fate? so there's a limited freedom to act good or bad to have an improvement of our conditions in the next life... of course the only solution to quit all this mess is transcendence... in this way one come back to vaikunta world and action/reaction problems end Somehow I dont think fate is compatible with Karma. Fate in general is something that you dont have control over, something very much pre-destined and mainly applies to cases where the law of Karma is not believed. You do have some control over future when you talk about Karma but fate seems to contradict this. In general someone who does not believe in Rebirth talks about fate. For example; the fish getting eaten is not its fate, but I would say it is still based on its past karma. Usually, when someone says fate, the later-part of what happens after fate is unknown. But, when you speak of Karma, we atleast know that the soul gets another body (as any of the 8400000 species). So, fate and Karma dont seem to go well together. When someone talks about fate, when they see different people in different situations like some baby being born blind and another baby being born with all good features can generally say that as fate. When asked why God made this distinction?, end us saying that God is Partial which again cannot be reconciled with their own religious beliefd. In the end they usually dont have a convincing answer. But if we talk about Karma, since we believe in rebirth the simple answer is Karma (not just fate) May be I am wrong, please comment.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Yes, today there are too many translations from too many people. In fact most of them give just the stories rather than the moral behind. People find stories easier but in the end they may end up assuming wrong meanings. So, caution is advised here. Now, there are many cartoons too.. kids like them, so not really sure if they get any moral or just end up assuming that all this is just myth. I dont know the full story of Parikshit, so I am not in a position to comment on the point that he built walls but I do know that he heard Bhagavatam. For now, I would only assume that there was a very short span of time when Parikshit built walls but soon realized (or someone told him) that that will not help him. Anyway, I dont know the full story, still got to reach the stage to read Srimad Bhagatavam by Srila. Prabhupada...hope to start soon. Even in case of vedas being 3, it could well be that way, if we go deeper. May be Sri. Vedavyas compiled 3 initially but later compiled the remaining portion (that could'nt fit in any of the 3) into the 4th one. So, I would'nt assume any contradiction here. It depends how deep you want to go into what Sri. Vedavyas did every hour, min, sec.etc Generally, it is important to know the fact that the Vedas were split and also the basic tenet of each of the vedas. But once this much is known it may not be very useful to know the exact details.. the contents are more important. We are losing time every minute and there is lot more learning to do, so better to spend time in learning more important topics.

Jai Sriman Narayan: I am only stating what I know, but will wait for more authoritative answers. Interesting question though. But, I am trying to start from more basics. The vedas I believe are oriignally about 1008 Shakas (volumes?) but what is left today is just 8 Shakas. The 8 Shakas themselves to do parayanam once requires many days. So writing is a big effort. Als, the vedas were all remembered during Satya and Treta yuga but were written during Dvapara yuga and split into Rig, Yajur etc for Kali yuga because people gradually lost the intelligence could'nt remember. So, Sri. Vedavyas had to split and put it in writing. May be the writings were lost. A controversial topic is that during invasion (even now actually) the missionaries spread rumours that vedas were written by many people and were written just during Gupta period etc, or in 1500 BC or at whatever period they find politically suitable. They call this research (i.e. making statements is research!). But, please note that many common people like us cannot agree about so many things in the Vedas and cannnot produce such a unique material. This is just one of the genuine small reasons we say it is God Given. Actually there are no contradictions and this is being repeatedly told by our great Aacharyas. The contradictions are only seen by philisophers and mundane people like us because we dont read completely. Any subject matter tends to slightly deviate from the original topic but would later reconcile. This is especially true with written material. Also, may since written materials are lost, we dont know anything fully. But, the puranas etc were written by the same person who heard from a bonafide source (Narada, Brahma, Krishna etc) it has the ripened fruit based on the Vedas. In reality athere are no contradictions. When someone says contradictions, it is really very important to state the assumption or the context based on which it is said. In almost all cases, the answer some people give to the question "why do you think there contradiction?" will be very absurd. Also, people who say there are contradictions just dont know how to read poetry and also how to read it in the right context. That is why, they need to learn these through a bonafide Aacharya. I would suggest a book called "God, Rebirth and the Vedas (ISBN : 8122405061) as a first step because that tends to answer very preliminary questions. Ofcourse, for people who already know these and for those who already believe in the Gita, and who already have an Aacharya the book is very very preliminary. I hope I have given my little thoughts on this. Welcome comments. Jai Sriman Narayana

is fate sum total of all karma? my understanding is that fate is something that we dont have any control over. But karma, I guess we do have some control over future karma (due to some freewill).

Should we believe in fate? Or since we have some freewill, with proper guidance we will do good karma, so nothing is fully predestined (unlike fate). Is this correct? Please let me know if I am wrong. Jai Sriman Narayan

I think we with our insuficient knowledge/mindset cannot decide who is great, Aacharya's always forbid discussion on this topic. In fact once when a student asked an Aacharya the Aacharya's response was "Since you can decide who is big, you are bigger than them both".

Jai Sriman Narayan: I am not fully depend on the government and wait for things to happen but I only meant to say that for any large scale change we do need Govt. support. Oherwise any major action you take in teaching the right things will not get government support and very soon the minorities will take charge of the temples etc and stop this from continuing... thats their goal anyway. For eg: try gathering a small community to tell that the aryan invasion theory was false and history books are wrong etc, still the children when they go back to schools, they will be asked to stop learning the wrong things and the government would rather support that to stay in power. Thats why we need a government that support Sanatana-Dharma, they may be corrupt no doubt (just like others) but we do need some fundamental changes in constitution to help us do what we want to do. Once that is done, we certainly dont want them to interfere too much. The Britishers disturbed the education system first and thats what we need to revive first.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Actually, what we need is rewriting of the constitution which is preventing presenting facts. For example 1. Christians / Muslims can distribute Bible / Quran in shools but Hindus should'nt disctibute the Gita. 2. Hindu temples must be headed or managed by minorities (Christians especially) 3. Christian charity institutions need not disclose their financial transactions to the government but Hindu institutions must. For eg: Nobody knows what all the donations given to Mother Theresa went. This is what we need to stop. I dont think our Hindu religions institutions have the power to do that... the secular government have taken this away by following the constitution written with a political will. Thats why we need to right Government. As of now I know lot of people (my own cousins, relatives etc) voted the secular government into power because they laid good roads, footpaths etc near their houses. They are not aware that all this is very cheap and there are bigger hidden problmes behind the scenes. They tend to get carried away, given a chance they may sell the whole country for the petty reason that someone Government laid good in front of their houses. Personally, making more and more people aware is what we need and I have been somewhat successful in doing that. But, only like minded people are interested. The others are either neutral or still in the secular-supporting mindset. I think the youth of today are more intelligent / interested in knowing the real culture.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Step 1: Analyze problems Become aware of the problems. Take a holistic stand and analyze thoroughly. May be we have sinned, so God punished us with invasions, conversions etc. Step 2: Discuss Discuss with others. We are already doing that. There are lots of forums where lots of people are discussing. This is to be sure that what we are all in sync about what we think / know. The Shaiva/Vaishnava/Shakta differences etc is not very important at this point of time, so may be all forums should avoid serious discussions on this and focus more of practical problems. Step 3: Organize ourselves This is where we are not moving forward. May be we are doing a lot individually ourselves but as a group it appears that we are not well organized yet. I think this is what we need to focus on. Organizing that each Hindu practises hinduims as correctly as possible. Step 4: Introduce real history in schools In my opinion getting a Government into power is the best way to do this. The only power we have is the voting-power. I dont know who should come to power but certainly I want the so-called secular government to go out. Otherwise, everyone will keep studying wrong history, and as usual the common people will not feel proud of Bharat / Sanatana Dharma. Jai Sriman Narayan

Jai Sriman Narayan: I also heard that the Namboodri Brahmins are very very strict that they dont allow even some Brahmins to enter the temples. I think they did not allow even the former PM Indira Gandhi to enter the Guravayur temple inspite of full political pressure. I too am interested to know more about the Namboodris.

Jai Sriman Narayan: Can you please specify what type of proof you want? The soul is not visible (atleast to the human eye), so (for example) even if it is talking you cant see who is talking, so we cant say it is the soul. So,what kind of proof are you looking for? I will then see how to prove it in your way.

Jai Sriman Narayana: I believe in the Gita, so I know this from there. But, I have had people asking me "Why believe in the Gita? Why is it auhtoritative?" How do we answer that? People do ask why to believe that whatever the Vedas says is true? I give some very common examples to prove that Vedas are God-given (I heard this at a lecture from an Aacharya). Let me know if you want me to post this. Once they accept that, it becomes easier to accept the other teachings within it. Jai Sriman Narayan

Jai Sriman Narayan: Importantly, people of all Varnas must feel that they can reach God by doing their duties in the most beneficial way.. not just what the Brahmins do. That will be only motivation for all to do their best. The current so-called caste system is just a perverted system of varnashrama dharma that the Britishers created. All people must be somehow made to realize this truth.