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shiva

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  1.  

    Originally Posted by shiva

    In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

    http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

     

     

     

     

     

     

    I agree with the conclusion of this - Lord Shiva cannot be God because he fell under the maya of Lord Vishnu.

     

    But what about the quotes from Bhagavata 8.7 which Sonic pointed out in which this Lord Shiva is addressed as "Sadashiva?" If Sadashiva and shiva are two different beings, one being Vishnu-tattva and other a jiva, then why does the Bhagavata fail to distinguish between them here?

     

    For the same reason that sometimes just Shiva is referred to as God in various sastra: the name isn't important, Sadasiva and Shiva are used interchangeably in various sastra.. Jiva Goswami makes all of this very clear, I can't see why anyone would claim that what Jiva Goswami taught is not Gaudiya theology since he is a foundational acarya of the sampradaya. I'm not making any of this up, anyone can read what he wrote, the sanskrit is there and can be checked if people have doubts about the translation.


  2. Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

    Shiva wrote:

    Originally Posted by shiva

    Vishnu tattva means one thing only in Gaudiya theology: Vishnu means all-pervading; Vishnu-tattva refers to swamsa or plenary expansions of Krishna, that is they are all the same all-pervading supreme Lord. Vishnu-tattva is only applicable to someone who is all-pervading, only applicable to God.

     

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Lord Siva is all pervading within the universe.

    That is your mistake to think that Lord Siva is not all pervading.

    Even Lord Brahma is all pervading.

     

    Sorry to burst your misconception.

     

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

     

    Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21

     

    śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ

     

    deva-deva mahā-deva

    bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana

    trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs

    trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

     

    SYNONYMS

     

    śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison.

     

    TRANSLATION

     

    The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

     

    PURPORT

     

    Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu.

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

     

     

    So, these are all slokas in 8th Canto in regards to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, who drank the ocean of poison to save the universe.

     

    These verses were not offered to Sadasiva of Vaikuntha, but to Lord Siva in this universe.

     

    Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that Lord Siva is empowered with all-pervading and has the qualities of Lord Vishnu as such.


  3. Posted by Sonic Yogi

    No, you are wrong.

    The husband of Parvati, Lord Siva is not a jiva.

    Siva is always in connection with Mahamaya, but that does not make him a jiva.

    When Siva is not in touch with Mahamaya, then he is the original Sadasiva who is the husband of Rama-devi, Lord Vishnu and is not the Sadasiva expansion that is in connection with Mahamaya.

    The second Sadasiva who is the consort of Mahamaya is the combination of Vishnu-tattva and Jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

    The second Sadasiva who is the expansion of the Vishnu Sadasiva is always in contact with Mahamaya and sometimes acts as Vishnu-tattva, as in his preserving the universe and protecting it from the kalakuta, and sometimes act in capacity of jiva to destroy the universe.

    The second Sadasiva who consorts with Mahamaya is this combination of Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

    Srila Prabhupada refers to him as shaktyavesha avatar which means a jiva who has been empowered with some Vishnu-tattva powers.

    Shakytavesha avatars are not jiva and are not Vishnu, they are combination of both.

    Ordinarily, the jiva cannot attain any powers to the level of Vishnu, but in the case of shaktyavesha there is some function of Vishnu working through the jiva.

    When Vishnu works through a jiva that is shaktyavesha avatar and is not ordinary jiva.

    In effect, a jiva can be empowered to function as Vishnu tattva.

    That is shaktyavesha avatar.

    At that time the jiva is not acting as a jiva but as Vishnu tattva or Siva tattva.

    These Shaktyavesha avatars do not have all the powers of Vishnu, but some powers of Vishnu are invested in them.

    The Bhagavatam describes several of these shaktyavesha avatars who were jivas that became empowered with some powers otherwise only found in Vishnu.

     

     

     

    svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

    ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

     

    svamsa-vistara -- catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

    vibhinnamsa jiva -- tanra saktite ganana

     

    sei vibbhinamsa jiva - dui ta' prakara

    eka - "nitya-mukta," eka - "nityasamsara"

     

    Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

     

    Expansions of His personal self -- like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva -- descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva). Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies

     

    The living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva) are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.


  4. Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

    But, those quotes seems to be at odds with Srimad Bhagavatam.

    I don't know where you got those translation of if they are dependable.

    Here is the best explanation that I can find. Srila Prabhupada says that Siva is simultaneously an expansion of Vishnu and jiva.

    As the annihilator of the universe, the jiva aspect of Siva is acting.

    It doesn't appear as Siva is two different types but simultaneously a combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

     

     

     

     

    Those are from Prabhupada's Bhagavatam. The question of this thread was about the Gaudiya Vaisnava conception. Since Jiva Goswami is considered to be the greatest philosopher and was one of the founding acharyas in Gaudiya Vaisnavism his opinion certainly should be considered as representative of Gaudiya theology. I already quoted his opinion on this topic, he clearly states what I have stated: two different Shivas, one Vishnu tattva, the other not. Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura said the same exact thing and added that a jiva fills the position of the deva Shiva. He is also considered a major acharya for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said, "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was the protector, guardian, and acarya during the middle period (1600-1700) of the historical development of Gaudiya Vaisnavism."


  5.  

    Which verse in particular are you paraphrasing?

    Are we supposed to read the whole chapter to try and find what you think you found there?

     

    Quote the verse which says that Lord Siva is not "God".

     

     

     

    This all refers to Lord Siva the husband of Bhavani.

    The Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the husband of Laksmi.

    In other words, the Sadasiva of Vaikuntha is Maha-Vishnu.

     

    You seem to be saying different things, I gave the opinion of Jiva Goswami and Visvanath Cakravarti who both said that there is a Shiva who is a plenary expansion of Krishna, Vishnu tattva, God himself, and that there is another Shiva which is a post like Brahma; which is either a jiva (who becomes superior to ordinary jivas) or Vishnu (when there is no qualified jiva to fill the post).Here are the relevant verses:

     

    http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/10/en1

     

    naham parayur rishayo na marici-mukhya

    jananti yad-viracitam khalu sattva-sargah

    yan-mayaya mushita-cetasa isa daitya-

    martyadayah kim uta sasvad-abhadra-vrittah

     

    SYNONYMS

     

    na -- neither; aham -- I; para-ayuh -- that personality who lives for millions and millions of years (Lord Brahma); rishayah -- the seven rishis of the seven planets; na -- nor; marici-mukhyah -- headed by Marici Rishi; jananti -- know; yat -- by whom (the Supreme Lord); viracitam -- this universe, which has been created; khalu -- indeed; sattva-sargah -- although born in the mode of material goodness; yat-mayaya -- by the influence of whose energy; mushita-cetasah -- their hearts are bewildered; isa -- O my Lord; daitya -- the demons; martya-adayah -- the human beings and others; kim uta -- what to speak of; sasvat -- always; abhadra-vrittah -- influenced by the base qualities of material nature.

     

    TRANSLATION

     

    O my Lord, I, who am considered to be the best of the demigods, and Lord Brahma and the great rishis, headed by Marici, are born of the mode of goodness. Nonetheless, we are bewildered by Your illusory energy and cannot understand what this creation is. Aside from us, what is to be said of others, like the demons and human beings, who are in the base modes of material nature [rajo-guna and tamo-guna]? How will they know You?

     

    SB 8.12.35: O Maharaja Parikshit, best of kings, when Lord Siva had fully discharged semen, he could see how he himself had been victimized by the illusion created by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus he restrained himself from any further maya.

     

    SB 8.12.36: Thus Lord Siva could understand his position and that of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who has unlimited potencies. Having reached this understanding, he was not at all surprised by the wonderful way Lord Vishnu had acted upon him.

     

    SB 8.12.37: Seeing Lord Siva unagitated and unashamed, Lord Vishnu [Madhusudana] was very pleased. Thus He resumed His original form and spoke as follows.

     

    SB 8.12.38: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O best of the demigods, although you have been amply harassed because of My potency in assuming the form of a woman, you are established in your position. Therefore, may all good fortune be upon you.

     

    SB 8.12.39: My dear Lord Sambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

     

    SB 8.12.40: The material, external energy [maya], who cooperates with Me in creation and who is manifested in the three modes of nature, will not be able to bewilder you any longer.

     

    SB 8.12.41: Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, having thus been praised by the Supreme Personality, who bears the mark of Srivatsa on His chest, Lord Siva circumambulated Him. Then, after taking permission from Him, Lord Siva returned to his abode, Kailasa, along with his associates.

     

    SB 8.12.42: O descendant of Bharata Maharaja, Lord Siva, in jubilation, then addressed his wife, Bhavani, who is accepted by all authorities as the potency of Lord Vishnu.

     

    SB 8.12.43: Lord Siva said: O Goddess, you have now seen the illusory energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the unborn master of everyone. Although I am one of the principal expansions of His Lordship, even I was illusioned by His energy. What then is to be said of others, who are fully dependent on maya?

     

    SB 8.12.44: When I finished performing mystic yoga for one thousand years, you asked me upon whom I was meditating. Now, here is that Supreme Person to whom time has no entrance and who the Vedas cannot understand.


  6.  

    Your statements are not consistent with Srimad Bhagavatam.

    In 8th Canto ch. 7, the Siva who is the consort of Bhavani (Paravati) is described as being the all-pervasive Sadasiva:

     

     

     

    This is the guna-avatar Siva, husband of Parvati.

     

     

     

    Bhavani is another name for Parvati.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    All these slokas in the Bhagavatam were offered to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, the guna-avatar who is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

     

     

    Lord Siva is only jiva in his form for destroying the universe at the time of pralaya.

     

     

    In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

     

    http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1


  7. In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

     

    The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles.

     

     

    Jiva goswami explains the difference between the demigod Shiva and Sadashiva in his Paramatma Sandarbha -- Anuccheda 17

     

     

    Text 45

     

    tad etad uktanusarena sada-civecvara-tri-devi-rupa-vyuho ‘pi nirastah. tasmad eva ca sri-bhagavat-purusayor eva caivagame sadaSivadi-samjYe tan-mahima-khyapanaya dhrte iti gamyate. sarva-sastra-ciromanau sri-bhagavate tu tri-devyam eva tat-taratamya-jijYasa. purusa-bhagavatos tu tat- prasagga eva nasti.

     

    tat - this; etat - that; ukta - said; anusarena - following; sada- civecvara - of Lord SadaSiva; tri-devi-rupa-vyuhah - the forms of the three goddesses; api - also; nirastah - rejected; tasmat - therefgore; eva - indeed; ca - also; sri-bhagavat-purusayoh - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara; eva - indeed; caivagame - in the Siava ssriptures; sadaSiva - with Lord SadaSiva; adi - beginning; samjYe - names; tan-mahima- khyapanaya - for dessribing His glories; dhrte - held; iti - thus; gamyate - is attained; sarva-sastra-ciromanau - in the crest jewel of all ssriptures; sri-bhagavate - in Srimad-Bhagavatam; tu - but; tri-devyam - in the three goddesses; eva - indeed; tat-taratamya - of the gradations of higher and lower; jijYasa - the desire to understand; purusa-bhagavatoh - of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tu - but; tat-prasagga - in association with Him; eva - indeed; na - not; asti - is.

     

    In may also be noted in the context of these words that Lord SadaSiva is not the same as the demigod Siva of the three guna- avataras. In the Siva scriptures it is clearly said that Lord SadaSiva is an expansion of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (in Canto Ten. Chapter Eighty-nine), the crest jewel of all scriptures, the question “Who is the most exalted of the three guna- avataras?” is raised. In the answer given there it is clear that the demigod Siva is not an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara.

     

    Text 46

     

    brahmadayo yat krta-setu-pala

    yat karanam vicvam idam ca maya ajna-kari yasya picaca-carya

    aho vibhumnac caritam vidambanam

     

    brahmadayah - demigods like Brahma; yat - whose; krta - activities; setu - religious rites; palah - observers; yat - one who is; karanam - the origin of; vicvam - the universe; idam - this; ca - also; maya - material energy; ajYa-kari - order carrier; yasya - whose; picaca - devilish; carya - activity; ahah - O my Lord; vibhumnah - of the great; caritam - character; vidambanam - simply imitation.

     

    The demigod Lord Siva is dessribed in the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.14.29):

     

    “Demigods like Brahma also follow the religious rites observed by him (Siva). He (Siva) is the controller of the material energy, which causes the creation of the material world. he is great, and therefore his devilish activities are simply imitation.”*

     

    Text 47

     

    ity asya trtiye gunavataratvena paramecvarabheda-drstya tathatvam uktam iti jneyam.

     

    iti - thus; asya - of this; trtiye - in the Third Canto; gunavataratvena - as a guna-avatar; paramecvarabheda-drstya - by the explanation that he is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tathatvam - the state of being like that; uktam - said; iti - thus; jneyam - to be known.

     

    From these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam it should be understood that the demigod Siva is one of the guna-avataras. He is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

     

    Text 48

     

    nanu

     

    na te giritrakhila-loka-pala-

    virinca-vaikuntha-surendra-gamyam

    jyotih param yatra rajas tamac ca

    sattvam na yad brahma nirasta-bhedam

     

    ity asya tasya paratvam sruyate evastame.

     

    nanu - is it not said?; na - not; te - of your Lordship; giritra - O king of the mountains; akhila-loka-pala - all the directors of departments of material activities; viriYca - Lord Brahma; vaikuntha - Lord Visnu; surendra - the king of heaven; gamyam - they cann understand; jyotih - effulgence; param - transcendental; yatra - wherein; rajah - the mode of passion; tamac ca - and the mode of ignorance; sattvam - the mode of goodness; na - not; yad brahma - which is impersonal Brahma; nirasta-bhedam - without distinction between demigods and human beings; iti - thus; asya - of Him; tasya - of Him; paratvam - supremacy; sruyate - is heard; eva - indeed; astame - in the Eighth Canto.

     

    Here someone may protest: Is it not so that the following words are found in the Eighth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.31):

     

    “O Lord Girica, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance, the various directors of the material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu, or the King of heaven, Mahendra.”*

     

    These words of Srimad-Bhagavatam’s Eighth Canto clearly show that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

     

    Text 49

     

    maivam. mahimna stuyamana hi deva viryena vardhate iti vaidika-nyayena tad-ayukteh. sa hi stavah kalakuta-nacartham eva.

     

    ma - not; evam - like that; mahimna - glory; stuyamana - praising; hi - indeed; deva - demigods; viryena - with power; vardhate - increase; iti - thus; vaidika - of the Vedas; nyayena - by the example; tad- ayukteh - not logical for that; sa - that; hi - indeed; stavah - prayer; kalakuta-nacartham - to destroy the kalakuta poison; eva - indeed.

     

    To this protest I reply: It is not so. The idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is disproved by the following words of the Vedas:

     

    “By glorifying Lord Visnu, the demigods become powerful.”

     

    The Srimad-Bhagavatam verse you quoted was an appeal to Lord Siva begging him to destroy the ocean of Kalakuta poison.

     

    Text 50

     

    tatraiva prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti.

     

    tatra - there; eva - indeed; prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.40.

     

    In that same chapter of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.40) Lord Siva himself affirms the supremacy of Lord Visnu. Siva says:

     

    “My dear gentle wife Bhavani, when one performs benevolent activities for others, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is very pleased. And when the Lord is pleased, I am also pleased, along with all other living creatures.”*

     

    Text 51

     

    tatha navame

     

    vayam na tata prabhavama bhumni.

    yasmin pare ‘nye ‘py aja-jiva-kosah

    bhavanti kale na bhavanti hidrcah

    sahasraco yatra vayam bhramamah. iti.

     

    tatha - so; navame - in the Ninth Canto; vayam - we; na - not; tata - O my dear son; prabhavama - sufficiently able; bhumni - unto the great Supreme Personality of Godhead; yasmin - in whom; pare - in the Transcendence; anye - others; api - even; aja - Lord Brahma; jiva - the living entities; kosah - the universes; bhavanti - can become; kale - in due course of time; na - not; bhavanti - can become; hi - indeed; idrcah - like this; sahasracah - many thousands and millions; yatra - wherein; vayam - all of us; bhramamah - are rotating; iti - thus.

     

    That Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.56) where Lord Siva himself explains:

     

    “My dear son, I, Lord Brahma, and the other demigods, who rotate within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord.”*

     

    Text 52

     

    ete vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti ca tad-vakya-virodhat.

     

    ete - vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.17.23; ca - also; tad- vakya-virodhat - because of refuting those words.

     

    In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.17.23) Lord Siva himself affirms:

     

    “Therefore, I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than any of us and under whose control are situated all the demigods, material elements, and senses, and even Lord Brahma and I myself, like birds bound by a rope.”*

     

    These two verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam clearly refute the idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

     

    Text 53

     

    athava yat Sivasya jyotis tatra sthitam paramatmakhyam caitanyam tat-samyag-jnane tasyapy aksamata yuktaiva.

     

    athava - or; yat - which; Sivasya - of Lord Siva; jyotih - effulgence; tatra - there; sthitam - situated; paramatmakhyam - called the Supersoul; caitanyam - coscious; tat- samyag-jnane - in right knowledge; tasya - of Him; api - also; aksamata - inability; yukta - proper; eva - indeed.

     

    Or, considering this from another point of view, it may be said that Lord Siva’s effulgence, which is dessribed in the verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.31, quoted here in text 48) previously quoted by you, is the home of all-knowing Lord Visnu, who is known as the Paramatma, or Supersoul. Understood in this way, it is quite proper that Lord Siva’s effulgence is beyond the living entities’ understanding. Text 54

     

    yad uktam dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti.

     

    yat - what; uktam - said; dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti - Srimad- Bhagavatam 10.87.41.

     

    That Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.41), where the Personified Vedas pray to Lord Visnu:

     

    “Our dear Lord, although Lord Brahma, the predominating deity of the highest planet, Brahmaloka, and King Indra, the predominating demigod of the heavenly planet, as well as the predominating deities of the sun planet, the moon planet, etc. are all very confidential directors of this material world, they have very little knowledge about You. And what to speak of ordinary human beings and mental speculators? It is not possible for anyone to enumerate the unlimited transcendental qualities of Your Lordship. No one, including the mental speculators and the demigods in the higher planetary systems is actually able to estimate the length and breadth of Your form and characteristics.”*

     

    Text 55

     

    brahma-samhita-mate tu bhagavad-agga-vicesa

    eva sadasivah. na tv anyah. yatha tatraiva

    sarvadi-karana-govinda-kathane

     

    brahma-samhita-mate - in the opinion of Brahma-samhita; tu - indeed; bhagavad-agga-vicesa - as a limb of Lord Krsna’s body; eva - indeed; sadaSivah - Lord SadaSiva; na - not; tv - but; anyah - another; yatha - as; tatra - there; eva - indeed; sarvadi-karana - the original cause of all causes; govinda - of Lord Krsna; kathane - in the dessription.

     

    In the words of Brahma-samhita it is said that Lord SadaSiva is a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. However, the other Siva, the demigod Siva, is not a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. This is dessribed in the following words of Brahma- samhita (5.8 and 5.10) where Lord Krsna’s status as the original cause of all causes is dessribed in these words:

     

    Text 56

     

    niyatih sa rama devi

    tat-priya tad-vacamvada

     

    niyatih - regulatrix; sa - she; rama - goddess Rama; devi - goddess; tat-priya - dear to him; tad-vacamvada - under cotnrol.

     

    “Ramadevi, the spiritual (cit) potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities.”**

     

    Text 57

     

    tal-liggam bhagavan Sambhur

    jyoti-rupah sanatanah ya yonih sa para saktih ity adi.

     

    tal-liggam - the emblem of Him; bhagavan - Lord; Sambhuh - Sambhu; jyoti-rupah - the form of light; sanatanah - eternal; ya - which; yonih - place of birth; sa - she; para - divine; saktih - potency; iti - thus; adi - beginning.

     

    “The divine plenary portion of Krsna creates the mundane world. at creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion (svamca). This halo is divine Sambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence . This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix (niyati). The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Maya, the limited non-absolute (apara) potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity.”*

     

    Text 58

     

    tasminn avirabhul ligge

    maha-visnuh ity ady-antam.

     

    tasmin - in that; avirabhut - maniefsted; ligge - emblem; maha- visnuh - - Lord Maha-Visnu; iti - thus; adi - beginning; antam - end.

     

    “the Lord of the world Maha-Visnu is manifest in him (Siva) by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.”**

     

    Text 59

     

    tad etad abhipretya sadasivatvadi-prasiddhim apy aksipyaha

     

    tat - this; etat - that; abhipretya - underdtanding; sadasivatva - the status of Lord sadaSival adi - beginning; prasiddhim - proof; api - also; aksipya - throwing away; aha - said.

     

    Lord SadaSiva is thus a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. Therefore the words of the following verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.18.21) refer not to Him, but to the demigod Siva:

     

    Text 60

     

    athapi yat-pada-nakhavasrstam

    jagad-viriYcopahrtarhanambhah secam punaty anyatamo mukundat

    ko nama loke bhagavat-padarthah

     

    atha - therefore; api - certainly; yat - whose; pada-nakha - nails of the feet; avasrstam - emanating; jagat - the whole universe; viriYca - Brahmaji; upahrta - collected; arhana - worship; ambhah - water; sa - along with; icam - Lord Siva; punati - purifies; anyatamah - who else; mukundat - besides the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna; kah - who?; nama - name; loke - within the world; bhagavat - Supreme Lord; pada - position; arthah - worth.

     

    “Who can be worthy of the name of the Supreme Lord but the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna? Brahmaji collected the water emanating from the nails of His feet in order to award it to Lord Siva as a worshipful welcome. This very water (the Ganges) is purifying the whole universe, including Lord Siva.”*

     

    Text 61

     

    spastam. sri-sutah.

     

    spastam - clear; sri-sutah - Sri Suta Gosvami.

     

    The meaning of this verse is clear. The verse quoted in the beginning of this anuccheda was spoken by Srila Suta Gosvami.

     

    This is also explained by Sri Visvanath Cakravarti Thakur in his Sri Bhagavatamrita Kanika:

     

     

    By the action of the mode of goodness, the Master of the milk ocean, Shri Vishnu, maintains the universe. By the action of the mode of passion, the universe is created by Lord Brahma, who is generated from the lotus flower arisen from Garbhodasayi Vishnu's navel. In some kalpas, a jiva who has amassed profuse piety takes the position of Lord Brahma and creates the universe. In this instance, due to the infusion of the Lord's potency in that jiva, he is referred to as an avesavatar. Because in that Brahma there is a connection with the mode of passion, he cannot be compared on a equal footing with Lord Vishnu. In those kalpas when there is an absence of any qualified jiva to take up the position of Lord Brahma, then Lord Vishnu Himself becomes Lord Brahma. Similarly, during some manvantaras, the incarnation of the Lord as Yagya has to take up the position of Lord Indra. During that manvantara when Yagya becomes Indra and during that kalpa when Vishnu becomes Brahma, then it can be said that they attain equality with Lord Vishnu.

     

     

    The gross body of Brahma, consisting of the total material substance, is also known as Brahma. Hiranyagarbha, Who is manifested within that gross body as subtle living entities, is also known as Brahma. The indwelling soul therein, the second purusha, Garbhodasayi, is Iswar, the Supreme Controller. He Who is the destroyer, by the action of the mode of ignorance is Lord Siva. The indwelling purusha within the Universal Form as well as the subtle form of the Creator, Hiranyagarbha, Who is the super excellent controller born of the lotus flower, have both been referred to as Brahma. This Brahma also accepts the form of Siva for the purpose of destruction.

     

    During some kalpas very pious jivas attain this position whereas in others, Lord Vishnu Himself accepts the position of Lord Siva. However, the personality of Sadasiva, is a plenary portion of the self-same form of the Supreme Lord, Shri Krishna, and He is transcendental to the three modes of material nature. It is from Him that the gunavatar of Siva is expanded. Therefore He should be understood to be superior to Brahma, equal to Lord Vishnu, and entirely separate from jivas, who are influenced by the material modes of nature.


  8.  

    Ranjeet, now you are talking like nonsense shakta.

    You say now that shakti controls shakti:

     

     

    That is nonsense.

    Shakti does not control shakti.

    Shaktiman controls shakti.

     

    Your asinine theory that somehow that Radha is some Isvara controlling Samvit and Sandhini Shakti is a concoction.

     

     

     

    Ranjeet, it sounds like you are trying to advocate the Shakta theory under the guise of being Gaudiya siddhanta.

     

    Shakti doesn't do any controlling.

    Shakti is always controlled by Shaktiman Isvara Krishna.

     

    In Jaiva Dharma Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote:

     

     

    Digambara: What is this visnu-maya?

     

    Advaita: In the Candi-mahatmya of the Markandeya Purana (81.40), visnu-maya is described, mahamaya hareh saktir yaya sammohitam jagat: “The potency of Bhagavan by which the entire world is bewildered is known as mahamaya.”

     

    Digambara: Then who is the goddess I know as Mother Nistarini?

     

    Advaita: She is Sri Hari’s external potency known as visnu-maya.

     

    Digambara opened his book on tantra and said, “Look, it states in tantra-sastra that my divine mother is consciousness personified. She possesses full will and she is beyond the three qualities of material nature, yet she is the support of those three qualities. Your visnu-maya is not free from the influence of the modes of nature, so how can you equate your visnu-maya with my mother? This type of fanaticism on the part of the Vaisnavas really irritates me. You Vaisnavas have blind faith.”

     

    Advaita: Brother Digambara, please don’t be angry. After so many days you have seen me again. I want to make you happy. If I say ‘the maya potency of Lord Visnu’, how have I become small-minded? Lord Visnu is the all-knowing Supreme Personality of Godhead. All that exists is His potency. The word ‘potency’ does not mean a substance. Rather it means the quality that a substance possesses. Therefore the statement that a potency is the root of all existence goes counter to the truth. A potency cannot exist apart from its substance. An original substance with a spiritual form must first be accepted. After all, the commentary on Vedanta-sutra declares:

     

    “The potency and the possessor of the potency are not different.”

     

    The meaning, then, is that the potency does not exist apart from its substance. The only true substance is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of potencies. The nature of the potency is either to be a quality of the Supreme Lord, or submissive to His will. When it is said that the potency has pure consciousness, that means that because the potency and the master of potencies are not different, therefore, like the master of potencies, the potency also has a form of spiritual consciousness, has desires that are at once fulfilled, and is beyond the touch of the three modes. It is not a mistake to say these things. Will and consciousness are qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By itself, the potency does not possess will, but rather it carries out the will of the Supreme. For example, you have power, and by Your will, your potencies act. If you say, ‘the power acted’, then that means that the possessor of the power was actually behind the action. To say that ‘the power acted’ is only to use a figure of speech. In truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead has only one potency. When she performs spiritual actions, she is called spiritual potency, and when she performs material actions, she is called the material potency, or maya. The Vedas (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8) explain:

     

    “The potency of the Supreme is manifested in many different ways.”

     

    The potency that manifests the three modes is the material potency. She creates and destroys the material universes. Those are her duties. In the Puranas and Tantras this potency is called by many names, such as Visnu-maya, Maha-maya, and Maya. Allegorically she is also called ‘the mother of Brahma, Visnu and Shiva”, ‘the killer of Sumbha and Nisumbha’, and other like names that describe her different activities. As long as he remains deeply enmeshed in material consciousness, the soul is under her power. When he attains pure spiritual knowledge, the soul can understand the nature of his original spiritual form. Then he is freed from the ropes of Maya. Then he is under the power of the spiritual potency. Then he becomes happy.

     

    Digambara: Are you under the power of one of these potencies, or are you not?

     

    Advaita: Yes. We are also a potency. We are ‘jiva-shakti’, individual souls. When we become free from the ropes of the maya potency, we are in the power of the spiritual potency.

     

    Digambara: Then you are also a sakta, a worshipper of the potency.

     

    Advaita: Yes. The Vaishnavas are naturally saktas. We are the servants of Sri Radhika, who is the spiritual potency. Under Her patronage we worship and serve Lord Krishna. Who is more of a sakta than we? I don’t see any difference between the saktas and the Vaishnavas. They who do not take shelter of the spiritual potency, but only take shelter of the material potency Maya may be saktas, but they are not Vaishnavas. They are materialists. In the Narada-pancaratra, Goddess Durga explains:

     

    “O Krishna, I am Radha, who stays on Your chest during the rasa dance in Vrindavan forest.”

     

    Thus from Durga-devi’s words we can understand that the Lord does not have two potencies. There is only one potency, who manifests Herself as the spiritual potency Radhika and the material potency Visnu-maya. When the potency is free from the material modes, she is called the spiritual potency, and when she is within the sphere of the material modes, she is called the material potency.


  9.  

    The spiritual durga is diferent from material durga.

    WHy are you quoting from tantra no point because it has been proved false.

     

    I was quoting Jiva Goswami, he wrote that as a commentary to Brahma Samhita. In Gaudiya Vaisnavism Durga, either one, is a plenary expansion of Radha. Gaudiya Vaisnavism is monotheistic, some may consider it to be polytheistic where they envision more than one person being God, but that is due to a poor understanding.


  10. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4

     

     

    Text 56

     

    rādhā-kṛṣṇa eka ātmā, dui deha dhari'

    anyonye vilase rasa āsvādana kari'

     

    TRANSLATION

     

    Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa are one and the same, but They have assumed two bodies. Thus They enjoy each other, tasting the mellows of love

     

    Text 81

     

    tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede

    krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

     

    Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

     

    PURPORT

     

    As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multi-forms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary (completely identical) portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original and reflected forms. The females reflections of Krsna's pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

     

    The plenary expansions of Krsna's personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha's expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are vaibhava-vilasa, and the queens are vaibhava-prakasa of Radharani. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personai form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani.

     

    Text 97

     

    mṛgamada, tāra gandha — yaiche aviccheda

    agni, jvālāte — yaiche kabhu nāhi bheda

     

    They are indeed the same, just as musk and its scent are inseparable, or as fire and its heat are nondifferent.

     

    Text 98

     

    rādhā-kṛṣṇa aiche sadā eka-i svarūpa

    līlā-rasa āsvādite dhare dui-rūpa

     

    Thus Rādhā and Lord Kṛṣṇa are one, yet They have taken two forms to enjoy the mellows of pastimes.

     

     


  11.  

    devI kRSNa mayI proktA rAdhikA para devatA

    sarva laKSmI mayI sarava kAntis saMmohinI parA

     

    (Caitanya Caritamritam Adilia, ch 4, 82-99 -

    taken from Brhad-GautamIya-tantra)

     

    "The transcendental Goddess Radharani is

    NON-DIFFERENT from Lord Sri Krishna.

    She is the Origin of all Lakshmi devis,

    Who derive Their beauty and powers from.

    She possesses all the attractiveness to

    attract the all attractive Supreme Lord.

    She alone is the Primeval Divine Potency."

     

    tayo rip yubhayor madhye

    rAdhikA sarvadhAdhikA

    mahAbhAva svarUpe yaM

    guNair ati garIyasI

     

    (Ujjvalanilamani - Sri Roopa goswami)

     

    Among the both Divine Personalities,

    Radhaji is considered always highest,

    as She alone is the embodiment of

    the Supreme Bliss of Mahaa Bhaava.

     

    yaH kRSNAH sA 'pi rAdhA

    yA rAdhA kRSN yeva saH

     

    (Narada Panca Ratram)

     

    Sri Radha and Krishna are of the same Essence.

    The Divine form that has been manifested as Krishna,

    is of Radha's and Sri Krishna Himself is the same Radha.

     

    ye yaM rAdhA yas ca kRSNo rasAbdhiH

    ddehazcaikaH krIdanArthaM dvidA bhUt

     

    (RadhikA tapaniyopanishad)

     

    The Divine couple, Radha and Krishna constitute

    the unfathomable Ocean of ultimate Divine Bliss.

     

    They have assumed Two Personalities only to

    engage in sublime pastimes of Divine Love.

     

     

     

     

    She is the Mother of Lord Mahavishnu. (Brahm Vaivarta Purana)

     

     

    Radha ardhtanu hari.

    Harirardhatanu radha.

     

    Radharani and Sri Krsna are THE SAME.

     

    ekam buddhi,eka atma.

    They have the same buddhi and They are the same Personality of Godhead.

     

     

    Some mahrasiks mainly side with Sri radha,and declare Her Superior,while others side with Sri KRsna and declare Him to be superior.This is done in PURE humour.

     

    Even the sadhaka can make such claims humourously,"You made Svayam Bhagavan Sri krsna assume the form of a Gopi and He served Your feet,Oh Radha !"

     

    "Sri Radhika is crying for You Oh Sri Krsna !"

     

    but the siddhanta is Eternally the same,"Radha and Krsna are not separate at all."

     

    It is your speculation that They differ in Their position and/or Person.

     

     

    Exactly, that is the authentic teaching of the Gaudiya Sampradaya:

     

    From the Sri Krsna-bhakti-ratna-prakasa of Srila Raghava Goswami:

     

     

    Sri Radha is manifested from half of Lord Krsna's body. This is described in the following verse of Padma Purana:

     

    "Sri Radha is the original potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is beautiful, graceful, saintly and full of all transcendental qualities. She enjoys pastimes in the forest of Vrndavana. She is manifested from half of Lord Mukunda's transcendental body."

     

    This is also confirmed in the Sammohana-tantra, Patala 1:

     

    "His form is eternally full of bliss. It is never any other way. Radha is full of bliss. Lord Hari is full of bliss."

     

    Their forms are not composed of material elements. Their forms are full of bliss. They are the single Supreme Spirit, manifested as two for the knowledge of the devotees.

     

    The wise know that as a spark is one with the fire, so the potency and the master of potencies are one.

     

    That Sri Radha is manifested from half of Lord Krsna's body is also described in the Govinda-Vrndavana-sastra, where Sri Krsna says to Balarama:

     

    "O Balarama, please listen and I will tell You something. One day, taking My flute, My heart full of bliss and My form bending in three places, I went under a kadamba tree and, seeing My own form reflected in a splendid golden platform studded with jewels, I became enchanted. At that moment My heart became filled with the sweet happiness known as conjugal love, which charms the entire world. My heart now desires to become a woman. I yearn to enjoy Myself as a woman.

     

    As the Lord thought in this way, His heart approached itself. From the sweetness of His heart came bliss and from the bliss came Himself, manifested in a second form, a female form of transcendental bliss that could experience the direct perception of Himself.

     

    At that time a goddess, whose form was nectar, whose fair complexion was like a host of lightning flashes, and who was decorated with glittering ornaments, appeared from the Lord's left side. She is known as Radha, who is half of Krsna's body, and who is the mistress of all potencies."

     

    (...)

     

    Because Sri Sri Radha Krsna are not different and because Sri Krsna is the master of all potencies, Therefore Sri Radha is also the master and source of all potencies. He is by nature full of sweetness and bliss, free from the three modes, and eternally manifest beyond the material nature. Because Radha is not different from Him, so is She also. It is said that within the Lord are all potencies, the modes and the material nature

     

    Even Durga is identical to Krishna, as told by Jiva Goswam in this commentary to Brahma Samhita:

     

     

    Durga is also described in Narada-pancaratra, in the following conversation of Sruti and Vidya:

     

    Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

     

    Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

     

    Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord's illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following statement of the Nirukti:

     

    Even is one continually worships her, Durga is still difficult to understand.

     

    In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

     

    I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Sri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune.

     

    She is identical with Gokula's queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

     

    Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

     

    Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death.


  12.  

    No.Sri Krsna NEVER CONTROLS THE THOUGHTS.We are not rocks that He will control our thoughts/or us.If He was controlling our thoughts,He would keep our minds attached to Him and surrendered to Him,for He is causelessly merciful.

     

    He certainly controls the experiences in the sense that His Svarupa sakti gradually strengthens our minds as we practice smarana or in short,according to the percentage of surrender of the mind.

     

    As the mind becomes situated in sattva guna...i.e. when it becomes pure,Svarupa Sakti makes the mind spiritual and only then can the mind concieve the pastimes of Sri KRsna.He certainly has visions before this ...but now he is fit to recieve spiritual knowledge.

     

    So it is very important to note the fact that WE HAVE TO ENGAGE THE MIND in smaranam of Sri Krsna,whether it is learning to be aware that He is situated as Paramatma in the heart or whether it is remembering His beautiful form and cute pastimes and literally crying out of yearning.

    Sri Krsna notes this melting of the mind...how much the heart yearns...and this yearning comes only when you remember His various pastimes and want to be a part of them.

     

     

    It is found that even after performing rigourous sadhana bhakti,the sadhaka doesn't advance...this is because he doesn't intentionally develop this yearning...

     

     

     

     

    What are thoughts? They are a dialogue in the mind. How do you understand the dialogue? You are dependent on memory for understanding the language of your thoughts, you are dependent on knowledge to understand the concepts of your thoughts. You are dependent on Krishna for memory and knowledge:

     

    Krishna says

     

     

    Bhagavad-gita 15.15

     

    sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

    mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

    vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo

    vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham

     

    I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

     

    The mind is not you, and the mind is not under your control. Due to conditioning people identify the mind as themselves or under their control, but Lord Kapila says:

     

     

    Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.28

     

    yad vidur hy aniruddhākhyaḿ

    hṛṣīkāṇām adhīśvaram

    śāradendīvara-śyāmaḿ

    saḿrādhyaḿ yogibhiḥ śanaiḥ

     

    The mind of the living entity is known by the name of Lord Aniruddha, the supreme ruler of the senses. He possesses a bluish-black form resembling a lotus flower growing in the autumn. He is found slowly by the yogīs.

     

    Aniruddha is a Vishnu expansion of Krishna. Paramatma exists at the heart or core of the jiva, the soul of our soul, and functions as the mind. Through meditation on detachment from the mind, the mind can reveal it's true identity to the realized yogi.

     

    Lord Kapila continues:

     

     

    Srimad Bhagavatam 3.28.35

     

    muktasrayam yarhi nirvisayam viraktam

    nirvanam rcchati manah sahasa yatharcih

    atmanam atra puruso ‘vyavadhanam ekam

    anviksate pratinivrtta-guna-pravahah

     

    When the mind is thus completely freed from all material contamination and detached from material objectives, it is just like the flame of a lamp. At that time the mind is actually dovetailed with that of the Supreme Lord and is experienced as one with Him because it is freed from the interactive flow of the material qualities.

     

    Srimad Bhagavatam 3.28.36

     

    so ‘py etaya caramaya manaso nivrttya

    tasmin mahimny avasitah sukha-duhkha-bahye

    hetutvam apy asati kartari duhkhayor yat

    svatman vidhatta upalabdha-paratma-kasthah

     

     

    Thus situated in the highest transcendental stage, the mind ceases from all material reaction and becomes situated in its own glory, transcendental to all material conceptions of happiness and distress. At that time the yogi realizes the truth of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He discovers that pleasure and pain as well as their interactions, which he attributed to his own self, are actually due to the false ego, which is a product of ignorance.

     

    At the stage of bhava-bhakti the devotee has the truth of the mind and his or her relationship to Krishna revealed to them through Krishna's control over the mind -- Krishna speaks to the devotee through the mind because the devotee understands that he or she is not the controller of the mind; thereby letting Krishna speak to them in the mind. The jiva is always under control in all he says or does in all circumstances because will power only belongs to the Lord. The jiva is only sakti or controlled energy, while God is sakti and saktiman: the controller of energy. Becoming conscious of this reality is essential for entering into bhava-bhakti:

     

     

    Bhagavad-gītā 3.27

     

    prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

    guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ

    ahańkāra-vimūḍhātmā

    kartāham iti manyate

     

    The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

     

    The jiva is not the doer because the jiva is not in control of his thoughts which inspire the jiva to act, knowing this we can be conscious of Krishna because Paramatma is the mind and controls thought:

     

     

    BG 18.57: In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.

     

    BG 18.58: If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.

     

    BG 18.60: Under illusion you are now declining to act according to My direction. But, compelled by the work born of your own nature, you will act all the same, O son of Kunti.

     

    BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.


  13.  

    Oh my god.Oh my God.

     

    Did you just say that Radha Krsna pastimes are not literal ???

     

     

     

    I was talking about the lila that is created by acharyas for the purpose of aiding people in their raganuga-sadhana practice. I replied already to someone who asked the same thing, this is what I said:

     

    "I'm not saying rasa-lila didn't take place, I'm saying that the rasa-lila created by Gaudiya acharyas serve very specific purposes. Unless you are educated enough in Bhagavat tattva and Radha Krishna tattva the true purpose of those writings for raganuga practice will not be attained."

     

     

     

    Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written:

     

     

    Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view.

     

    In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach.


  14.  

    but then you confuse me..

     

    let me get this straight as i've frankly never heard the term before.

     

    Kulapavana ji,

    Is siddha pranali : concieving an imaginary bhava deha in the mind and performing service to the Divine couple in smarana ????

     

    No, that is a form of raganuga-sadhana. Siddha-pranali is a diksa initiation into that proper practice by a guru, it isn't the practice itself. But you don't really need to get that diksa initiation if you have sufficient siksa instruction from authentic sources in order to practice raganuga-sadhana. In the practice itself you are supposed to imagine yourself in a specific sthayi-bhava (primary type of relationship -- like a lover or parent or friend, whichever way you are attracted to follow). Because lila is performed by people with eternally youthful beautiful bodies, you are supposed to conceive of yourself as being youthful and beautiful, you don't need to imagine an actual form though, just imagine yourself as being youthful and beautiful.

     

    There are different types and stages of lila-smaranam, although commonly most devotees think only of meditating on the rasa-lila pastimes written in the books or kirtans and bhajans of past Gaudiya acharyas as being the only aspect or type of lila-smaranam; when in fact that type of lila-smaranam is a preliminary stage to bhava-bhakti. It is necessary though in order to understand rasa (the different types of interactions going on between people in lila), and rasa is necessary to understand in order to develop bhava-bhakti ("During bhava, by meditation, the Lord appears in the mind" - from Madhurya Kadambini) In order to attain bhava there is a prerequisite of being firmly educated in Bhagavat tattva, which I explained in an earlier comment in this thread:

     

    Krishna is in constant and total control of everything you experience from moment to moment, including the mind and everything you encounter in your environment; awakening to this reality is essential for esoteric authentic lila-smaranam. What lila-smaranam is really supposed to be about is the meditation on remembering the nature of your relationship with Krishna from moment to moment; not in the sense of "I am such and such person in lila", but in the sense of Bhagavat ontology or "Krishna is controlling everything, including me and my thoughts, by constantly remembering this (smaranam) Krishna and his lila can and will be revealed to be all around and within me all of time".

     

    Who is qualified for raganuga-sadhana? This is what Rupa Goswami says in Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu:

     

    From http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Rupa_Goswami/Bhakti_Rasamrita_Sindhuh/EASTERN_DIVISION_OF_THE_OCEAN.htm

     

     

    Text 291:

     

    tatra adhikari

     

    ragatmikaika-nishtha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah |

    tesham bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan || 291 ||

     

    Those eligible (for Raganuga Bhakti):

     

    Those who are aspirants for or have eager craving or longing for following in the wake of the feelings and sentiments of the Eternal Associates of Braja, possessing firm and one-pointed attachment for Ragatmika Bhakti are alone eligible for this Raganuga Bhakti.

     

    Text 292:

     

    tat-tad-bhavadi-madhurye shrute dhiryad apekshate |

    natra shastram na yuktim ca tal-lobhotpatti-lakshaëam || 292 ||

     

    If one's intelligence is no more guided by scriptural prescriptions or dependent on any human and favorable reasoning and arguments after listening to the different Sthayi Bhavas of the Four Categories of the Eternal Associates of the Lord in Braja and also listening to the sweetness of their extraordinary beauties and qualities, then it is considered to be the sign that such craving or intense longing for Raganuga Bhakti has been aroused in ones heart

     

     

    Commentary: Commenting on the sloka Shri Jiva Gosvami says that when the sweetness and excellence of the sentiments of Nanda-Yasoda and others of Braja towards Shri Krishna are partly listened to from the Bhagavatam, which establishes the concept of the Absolute Reality, and when from such listening there is also a slight relishing and realization of it, and when the faculty of understanding is no more guided by scriptural injunctions and human reasoning and arguments and is engages in attaining the supra-sweetness of the Bhavas in the wake of the Ragatmikas of Braja, then such a state of mental attitude of the individual may be said to be the sign of the cause of awakening of a spontaneous and eager longing, which is the sign of Raganuga Bhakti.

     

    Shri Mukundadasa Gosvami points out that here the word 'tattad-bhavadi' refers to the different sentiments and feelings of the different categories of the Eternal Associates of Lord Shri Krishna in Braja, including Nanda-Yasoda and other Gopas and Gopis, which together with their sweetness, beauties and qualities satiate all the ever-increasing Desires of the Aprakrta or supra-mundane Senses of the All-love Shri Krishna. When these Bhavas and functions of the Ragatmika Associates of Shri Krishna in Braja are listened to from the Bhagavatam and allied Scriptures that deal with the transcendental Pastimes of the Lord written by Rasika Bhaktas, i.e. devotees who have dived deep in the Ocean of Rasa, and when from such listening there is awakened in the heart even for a limited degree a relishing realization of the supreme beauty and sweetness of the Bhavas of the Eternal Gopas and Gopis of Braja, the intellectual faculty of such a person is no more bound by scriptural injunctions nor is such a person any more guided by mere human reasoning and favorable arguments. He is now independent of scriptural dogmas and human reasoning, and is guided by a strong longing for those Bhavas, their sweetness and unsurprising beauties and qualities, and desires to follow in their wake. Such a state is said to be cause and sign of the awakening of this intense craving for Raganuga Bhakti. In the text, the use of 'srute' definitely stresses the great importance of listening to the Bhagavatam about the Bhavas of the Eternal Associates towards Shri Krishna no doubt; but craving in self-pleasures in Kamanuga Bhakti may also be aroused from seeing the beautiful and attractive Shri Murti or the Symbolic Image of Lord Shri Krishna.

     

    The special point on which Shri Visvanatha Cakravarti lays stress here is: 'Laksana' or sign of Raganuga Bhakti is used in the sense of inferential knowledge only, because the cause of such carving of longing for Raganuga Bhakti in the wake of Ragtmika-Bhakti, independent of Scriptures and reasoning, can be inferred by knowledge only. Therefore, this sign itself cannot be said to be the nature of the longing as cause of Raganuga Bhakti. The mere fact of non-dependence on Scriptures and reasoning does not necessarily establish the nature and characteristic of such a longing.

     

    Text 293:

     

    vaidha-bhakty adhikari tu bhavavirbhavanavadhi |

    atra shastram tatha tarkam anukulam apekshate || 293 ||

     

    Those eligible for Vaidhi Bhakti must depent on Scriptures as well as favourable reasonings and arguments till the flash of bhavas appears in the hearts.

     

    Commentary: Shri Jiva Gosvami in his commentary on this sloka observes that as one eligible for Raganuga Bhakti follows in the footsteps of Ragatmika Bhakti, one's Bhakti is limitless i.e. there is no limit to which Raganuga Bhakti may extend and be practiced. But for one eligible for Vaidhi Bhakti, is there any such lined? In answer to such a question, Shri Rupa Gosvami says that a follower of Vaidhi Bhakti has got to practice it to a limit till Bhava appears in his heart. In this connection one may refer to Bhagavatam Canto XI, Chapter 20 and sloka 31 where Lord Shri Krishna addressing Uddava says: "My devotees who are free from all passions, who maintain equanimity of outlook everywhere and under all circumstances and who have attained Me, who am beyond Maya and Mayik influences, and who have feelings for Me with the awakening of Bhavas-flash of Sthay Bhava-in their hearts, such of My exclusive and one-pointed devotees are no longer bound by piety or vice arising out of observance or non-observance, of scriptural prescriptions respectively."

     

    Shri Visvanatha Cakravarti observes that in spiritual practices one has got to be guided by scriptural prescriptions and favorable arguments and reasoning so far Vaidhi Bhakti is concerned till Raga is aroused. When such a longing for following in the steps of the Eternal Associates of the Lord in Braja is awakened in the heart, then such a devotee of Vaidhi Bhakti no more depends on, the Scriptures and reasoning. But in Raga-Bhakti, because the thirst for following in the wake of the Bhavas of the Ragatmikas of Braja is inherent from the very beginning, there is never any dependence on scriptural guidance and favorable arguments and reasoning. Thus it is far superior to Vaidhi Bhakti. But when there is a longing for a particular Bhava or Sthayi-Bhava of Braja aroused in the heart of an individual, it becomes necessary that one knows the Object of that particular Bhava for its attainment. It is therefore, necessary that inquiries be made about the Scriptures that deal with such an Object and the relevant desired Bhava in the wake of the Eternal Associates of the Lord of Braja and also for the knowledge of such practices as described in the Scriptures. The point is that Vaidhi Bhakti is completely guided by scriptural injunctions, reasoning and favorable arguments, i.e. arguments that help the cause of Vaidhi Bhakti, whereas the way of Raga is trodden through such Vidhi or scriptural injunctions which aid or favor a spontaneous longing, aroused after listening to the beauties, qualities and sweetness of the sentiments of the Eternal Associates of the Lord in Braja as described by such Scriptures.

     

    And Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura gets into the same topic at http://nitaaiveda.com/All_Scriptures_By_Acharyas/Vishvanatha_Chakravarti_Thakura/Raga_Vartma_Candrika.htm


  15.  

    That introduction to SB by Srila Prabhupada was written in India before Srila Prabhupada came to American and before he had thousands of disciples.

     

    However, later on, in his books, after he had acquired thousand of disciples and followers, he gave explicit instruction that in the Krishna consciousness movement he was limiting the study of Vaishnava literatures to Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavatam, NOD and CC.

     

     

     

    These are things that experienced devotees of the Krishna consciousness movement can share with those who do not understand such detailed experience in the Krishna consciousness movement.

     

    Prabhupada was only saying that in ISKCON the classes are limited to those books. He didn't say that he didn't want people reading other books. It would be unprecedented for a gaudiya acharya to disallow the study of the works of the Goswamis or other previous acharyas, and in fact he didn't. He may have written that in India but he published that in America and had it distributed around the world to millions of people, if he didn't mean it he would have had it removed.


  16. http://vedabase.net/sb/introduction/en

     

     

    Many devotees of Lord Caitanya like Śrīla Vṛndāvana dāsa Ṭhākura, Śrī Locana dāsa Ṭhākura, Śrīla Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, Śrī Kavikarṇapūra, Śrī Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, Śrī Gopāla Bhaṭṭa Gosvāmī, Śrī Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī and in this latter age within two hundred years, Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravartī, Śrī Baladeva Vidyābhūṣana, Śrī Śyāmānanda Gosvāmī, Śrī Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Śrī Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and at last Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura (our spiritual master) and many other great and renowned scholars and devotees of the Lord have prepared voluminous books and literatures on the life and precepts of the Lord. Such literatures are all based on the śāstras like the Vedas, Purāṇas, Upaniṣads, Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata and other histories and authentic literatures approved by the recognized ācāryas. They are unique in composition and unrivaled in presentation, and they are full of transcendental knowledge. Unfortunately the people of the world are still ignorant of them, but when these literatures, which are mostly in Sanskrit and Bengali, come to light the world and when they are presented before thinking people, then India's glory and the message of love will overflood this morbid world, which is vainly searching after peace and prosperity by various illusory methods not approved by the ācāryas in the chain of disciplic succession.

  17.  

    Just because some truly advanced Vaishnavas (like Sridhara Maharaja) do not think that rasa lila ever took place here on earth, and like all the other lila is only a metaphor - not a historical fact, that does not mean they are right, or that everyone must think just like them in order to 'do things right'.

     

    Saraswatas did indeed depart from the GV tradition in some important but subtle ways, some more than others. They did it to facilitate preaching and to re-shape the way of thinking of the new generation of followers. Prabhupada went as far as preaching to his followers that all jivas fell from Krsnaloka, from a direct loving relationship with Krsna, because he did not want them to think that we all come from undifferentiated Brahmajyoti. Never mind that this preaching is not based on guru, sadhu, or shastra. He wanted to shape the way of thinking for his disciples, taking them as far as possible from the dreaded 'impersonalism'. However, seems like such departures are ultimately bound to fail, and their benefits are temporary at best. Stepping away from siddha pranali seems to be in that category.

     

    You misunderstood what I meant to convey. I'm not saying rasa-lila didn't take place, I'm saying that the rasa-lila created by Gaudiya acharyas serve very specific purposes. Unless you are educated enough in Bhagavat tattva and Radha Krishna tattva the true purpose of those writings for raganuga practice will not be attained. Here is an example:

     

    If you were to meet Radha, Krishna and the nitya-sakhis, how would you treat them?

     

    If you believe Radha and Krishna and the nitya-sakhis to be different personalities from each other, then you will treat them as different persons. But that will be a mistake and your relationship with them will be based upon your ignorance of who they really are and what your real ontological relationship with them is. We are taught that Radha and Krishna are the same person and that the sakhis are Radha's personal expansions; they are not jivas.

     

    Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.56

     

    rādhā-kṛṣṇa eka ātmā, dui deha dhari'

    anyonye vilase rasa āsvādana kari'

     

    SYNONYMS

     

    rādhā-kṛṣṇa — Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa; eka — one; ātmā — self; dui — two; deha — bodies; dhari' — assuming; anyonye — one another; vilase — They enjoy; rasa — the mellows of love; āsvādana kari' — tasting.

     

    Here we are being instructed in Radha Krishna tattva - eka ātmā, dui deha - one atma or one person in two bodies.

     

    What is the position of the sakhis, queens and goddesses?

     

     

    CC Ādi 4.73: Now please listen to how Lord Kṛṣṇa's consorts help Him taste rasa and how they help in His pastimes.

     

    CC Ādi 4.74-75: The beloved consorts of Lord Kṛṣṇa are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Rādhikā.

     

    CC Ādi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is the cause of all incarnations, so Śrī Rādhā is the cause of all these consorts.

     

    CC Ādi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Śrīmatī Rādhikā, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

     

    CC Ādi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilāsa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakāśa.

     

    CC Ādi 4.79: The Vraja-devīs have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

     

    CC Ādi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī to assist in the Lord's pastimes.

     

     

    Without understanding Radha Krishna tattva you will misunderstand the writitngs of the Gaudiya acharyas on rasa-lila. You will take it all literally, when in fact the authors were fully aware of Radha Krishna tattva and their writings are for people who are also fully aware of Radha Krishna tattva. Those writings when taken literally appear to be only about the romantic and erotic pastimes between Radha, Krishna, and the sakhis and to a lesser degree the sakhas; with the focus on the erotic rasa between Radha and Krishna, and to a lesser degree the rasa between the sakhis and Radha and the sakhis and Krishna. But in reality those relationships make no sense if you understand that Radha and Krishna are the same person, and that the sakhis are the same person as Radha. They are all the same person; and therefore real rasa is not possible between them anymore than you can enjoy rasa with your image in a mirror; you cannot enjoy rasa with yourself, rasa can only be enjoyed when there is a real relationship as opposed to a pretend relationship.

     

    My point to you was that when devotees get involved with a mistaken conception of lila, than their lila-smaranam will not be effective. They will waste their time imagining those descriptions of lila to be literal truth, when in reality the real esoteric intent of those writings will not even be perceived by them.

     

    Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written:

     

     

    Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view.

     

    In the form of the narrative of the Bhagavatam, the Transcendental Vraja Lila manifests its descent to the plane of our mundane vision in the symbolic shapes resembling those of the corresponding mundane events. If we are disposed, for any reason, to underestimate the transcendental symbolism of the narrative of the Bhagavatam we are unable to avoid unfavorable and hasty conclusions regarding the nature of the highest, the most perfect and the most charming form of the loving service of the Divinity to which all other forms of his service are as the avenues of approach.


  18.  

    I was refering to historical accounts related to this method of bhajana, as well as its current practice. Essentially you look at people who use or used siddha-pranali and examine their devotional qualities. Are they what you can call advanced devotees with little or no material attachment, or not? Clearly there were in the past, and there still are, devotees who benefitted from this practice.

     

    As I said earlier, I do not practice it, and I am nowhere near being ready for siddha pranali, but I hope the time will come before I die when I will take it up. And if some people see it a 'sahajiya' tendency, I could not care less.

     

    The only people I know who took siddha-pranali diksa are a handful of people I have conversed with on the Internet. I have had long conversations over many years with them on forums and blogs about all aspects of Gaudiya theology. IMHO each of them thinks they are much more advanced than they actually are.

     

    In fact each one of them has what I consider to be distorted ideas about what they think they are experts on. Their theological views on rasa-tattva are seriously flawed on many different levels because they have seriously flawed conceptions about the most basic ontology of Radha Krishna tattva -- they see Radha and Krishna and the nitya sakhis as unique and different persons from each other. Even though Mahaprabhu and the previous acaryas taught that Radha and Krishna are one and the same personality, and that the nitya-sakhis are Radha's personal expansions, that is they are her (Radha is the vine they are the leaves and flowers of the vine of Radha); not a single one of those devotees are able to see how that ontological truism changes the meaning of rasa-lila from having a primarily literal to a primarily metaphoric purpose.

     

    They take rasa-lila literally, therefore they base their conception of raganuga-bhakti and lila-smaranam on something that is not literally real. And it shows when I converse with them. Instead of having developed a closer relationship with Krishna; which is the purpose of raganuga and siddha-pranali; they end up being obsessed with the minutiae of lila because that is what they think lila-smaranam is supposed to be about -- when in fact lila-smaranam is meant to be taken metaphorically in raganuga sadhana.

     

    Partially because of that none of them has been able to develop to the level of bhava-bhakti. I don't blame siddha-pranali for this, even without siddha-pranali the result would be the same for anyone who has basic misconceptions about Radha Krishna tattva and then tries to follow raganuga sadhana. Siddha-pranali isn't good or bad, it's neutral. A knife in the hand of surgeon can save a life, but in the hand of a fool a knife can harm you.

     

    What kind of harm? Without sufficient knowledge of Bhagavat tattva and Radha Krishna tattva, rasa-lila is unable to be understood properly because the sadhaka will take metaphor literally; all they will see in those stories and poems is the erotic relationships between Krishna and the gopis. They will miss the metaphoric intent. And even worse happens when those types of people become gurus themselves and pass on their misconceptions. We end up with thousands of bhaktas and gurus who practice and teach about raganuga sadhana from a literal perspective of lila, whose misinterpretations of the writings of the 6 Goswamis and their contemporaries becomes seen as the standard for raganuga bhakti.

     

    Prabhupada dismissed siddha-pranali because his guru had dismissed it. But Bhaktivinoda taught about it. Why did Bhaktisiddhanta dismiss it? Because like a knife it can be good or bad; so why keep a practice that could end up with bad results when you are trying to expand a large preaching organization? Siddha-pranali was never taught as something that was necessary, it was taught as something that could aid a sadhaka in his raganuga sadhana. But the "reality on the ground" is that few if any devotees were attaining bhava-bhakti from siddha-pranali because both the disciples and the gurus were more often than not full of misconceptions, and not nearly as advanced as they thought they were.

     

    Lila-smaranam is an esoteric practice, but to people with misconceptions about lila-tattva it's just about trying to meditate on being in the rasa-lila they read about. Their conception of rasa-lila is based upon a lack of understanding lila-tattva (Radha and Krishna and the nitya-sakhis are all the same person and all that implies) and a lack of understanding Bhagavat tattva: Krishna is in constant and total control of everything you experience from moment to moment, including the mind and everything you encounter in your environment; awakening to this reality is essential for esoteric authentic lila-smaranam. What lila-smaranam is really supposed to be about is the meditation on remembering the nature of your relationship with Krishna from moment to moment; not in the sense of "I am such and such person in lila", but in the sense of Bhagavat ontology or "Krishna is controlling everything, including me and my thoughts, by constantly remembering this (smaranam) Krishna and his lila can and will be revealed to be all around and within me all of time".


  19.  

    (3) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada, asked that we keep Radharani in great reverence, 'On your head, over your head-don't be bold enough to approach directly: Pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange. Try to keep Her and Her group at a respectful distance, above your head. Don't rush towards that position. It is not that cheap. That is high, very high, and from below we are to honor that.'

     

    <!-- / message -->

     

     

    That translation is not correct. Here is the proper one from http://207.58.181.10/translation.html

     

    "The servants of Hari revel in satisfying His transcendental desires.

     

    They worship the path of spontaneous devotion, whereby awe and reverence is overthrown."


  20.  

    Ultimately the question is: Does siddha-pranali work as a devotional practice? After all, it is a practice that has been around for a very long time.

     

    Based on my research, it CAN work, but it is definitely not for neophytes or even intermediate bhaktas.

     

    When a group of third-graders denounce calculus as 'bogus', or 'worthless' that is because they do not know any better. By the time they are in the 12th grade their understanding of math changes and they can properly appreciate the value of calculus.

     

    Can you explain in some detail what you mean by "Based on my research, it CAN work".


  21.  

    Srila Bhaktisiddhanta accomplished many wonderful things in his life. Lord Krsna uses all of us in His plan according to our way of surrender.

     

    We can only speculate as to why Bhaktivinoda did not give diksa to his older son, but ultimately it can be seen as part of Lord Krsna's plan. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta disliked his father's guru from the very beginning. Thus taking diksa from his father would have perhaps been awkward for him, as it would make Bipin Bihari his parama guru. Who knows...

     

     

    For a large part of the gaudiya vaisnava society at that time the caste goswamis were predominant. Diksa guru had become a family caste based business; those families claimed hereditary rights (they still do today) as diksa gurus for the gaudiya sampradaya. Bhaktisiddhanta preached against the conception of hereditary gurus, so he didn't want to take diksa from his father because he would have been accused of hypocrisy.


  22. There are some misconceptions about siddha-pranali on this thread. It was never supposed to be about revealing someones actual siddha-deha. It's supposed to be about creating a mental siddha-deha to aid in meditation. Raganuga sadhana is about cultivating the mood of one of the nitya-siddha parishads from nitya Krishna lila. One way to do that was that a guru would tell a disciple to imagine himself or herself as a specific nitya-siddha parishad according to his or her natural inclination. Maybe that conception was changed by some people into a process where a guru reveals to the disciple his or her actual siddha-deha. Or maybe there is just some misunderstanding of who is doing what. I don't know because I have never met anyone who claims to be able to reveal your actual siddha-deha, has anyone here?

     

    Bhaktivinoda speaks something about this in his Dasa Mula Tattva:

     

     

    Up until now, vaidhi bhakti has been discussed. Now we will discuss raganuga sadhana bhakti.

     

     

     

    ishthe svarasiki ragah param avishtata bhavet

     

    tan mayi ya bhaved bhaktih satra ragatmikodita

     

     

    Raga or attachment means intense and natural absorption in the object of love. When devotion to Krishna has this quality it is called ragatmika bhakti.

     

    B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga 104

     

     

     

    The practice of following this mood of ragatmika bhakti is called raganuga bhakti. Just as bhakti which follows the rules of scripture is called vaidhi bhakti, so that bhakti which follows after ragatmika bhakti is called raganuga bhakti. Neither of these is the goal or perfection; both are sadhana or practice. Ragatmika bhakti has two types: kamanuga and sambandhanuga.

     

     

     

    The ragatmika bhakti of the inhabitants of Vraja and Mathura is well known. Those who are eager to attain the mood of those devotees are qualified for raganuga sadhana bhakti. Just as the qualification for vaidhi bhakti is faith in scripture, so the qualification for raganuga bhakti is a greed to attain the mood of the ragatmika devotees.

     

     

     

    tat tad bhavadi-madhurya-shrute dhir yad apekshate

     

    natra shastram na yuktim ca tal lobhotpatti lakshanam

     

    krishnam smaran janam casya preshtham nija- samihitam

     

    tat tat katha ratish casau kuryad vasam vraje sada

     

    seva sadhaka-rupena siddha-rupena catra hi

     

    tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja-lokanusaratah

     

     

     

    Scripture and logic are not the symptoms of greed for the Lord. When the mind eagerly awaits absorption in the mood of love on hearing sweetness of the particular moods it is called pure greed. The method of practice is this: to relish topics of Krishna's pastimes while remembering Krishna and ones chosen Vraja devotee, to live in Vraja constantly, and to serve Krishna in ones body or chosen spiritual body, through service similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja with a greed for the mood of ones chosen ideal.

     

    B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga 118, 150-151

     

     

     

    Among the angas of bhakti mentioned in vaidhi bhakti such as kirtana , those which are favorable for his service are accepted by the practitioner of raganuga. Those aspiring for dasya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Patraka and other servants; those desirous of sakhya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Subala and other friends; those desirous of parental rasa copy the mood and gestures of Yashoda and other elders; and those desirous of madhura rasa copy the mood, service and gestures of the Vraja gopis.

     

     

     

    There are two types of ragatmika bhakti: by kama and sambandha. Similarly there are two types of raganuga bhakti: kamanuga and sambandhanuga. Of the two, kamanuga is stronger and more prominent. In kamanuga there are also two divisions: sambhogeccha mayi and tad bhavecchamayi. In the first, the devotee of Krishna is inclined to give pleasure to Krishna; in the latter the devotee relishes the sweet relation between Radha and Krishna. That bhakti in which one indentifies with devotees of Krisna who have conventional relationships with Krishna is called sambandhanuga. In Dvaraka the queens' love is madhura rasa based on sambandha. In Vraja, only kamanuga madhura rasa exists.

     

     

     

    Lord Chaitanya taught that the tendencies of the jiva suddenly manifest through the raganuga process. Lord Chaitanya has approved of worship in the raga mode (raga marga). If a soul by good fortune gets association with devotees who have the mercy of Gauranga, he will certainly become greedy for the mood of the Vraja vasis. But as long as he does not have such association, he must practice vaidhi bhakti. Just on taking shelter of the lotus feet of Gauranga he enters the path of raga. Those eager for the path of spontaneous attraction first practice raganuga bhakti. In practicing raganuga bhakti the person quickily develops an extremely high qualification. On attaining greed for the mood of the Vraja vasis, no other attraction remains. When that greed arises, the practitioner immediately becomes completely disinterested in sinful action, piety, social duty, neglect of duty, forbidden actions, speculation, and dry renunciation.

     

     

     

    adau shraddha tatah sadhu-sango'tha bhajana kriya

     

    tato' nartha nivrittih syat tato nishtha rucis tatah

     

    athashaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

     

    sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

     

     

    First Sraddha or faith, next Sadhu-sanga or association with saints, after that Bhajana-kriya or spiritual practices, next to it is Anartha-nivrtti, i.e. cessation of all offenses or obstacles, next to it is Nistha or firmness, which is followed by Ruci or taste, next is Asakti or attachment, after this is Bhava, and then appears Prema. These are the different stages for the appearance of Prema in the heart of a person who undergoes spiritual practices.

     

    B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga, Prema bhakti lahiri,11

     

     

     

    In the vaidhi bhakti process following this gradually method, attainment of bhava takes a long time. However, if greed for the mood of the Vraja vasis develops, the material desires are quickly destroyed, since no other desires have a place. Along with greed for Krishna simultaneously arises bhava.

     

     

     

    On the path of raga, however, it is necessary to avoid imitation or deception. If that occurs, it produces disturbance and obstacles, though the person may think that his corrupted raga is real raga. Finally, material association turns that raga into material attraction and causes falldown of the jiva.

     

     

     

    The devotee of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, after having developed real greed, practices raganuga bhakti. Following the same rules as vaidhi bhakti, the devotee takes shelter of genuine guru, serves the deity, takes Vaishnava association, studies the devotional literature, lives in a place of the Lord's pastimes, and chants the Lord's name. Along with this, the devotee serves Krishna in an intense mood of love in his spiritual body (siddha deha), following the sentiments of the Vraja vasis.

     

    (...)

     

     

    For practice of both types of bhakti, the bona fide guru is necessary. The guru engages the candidate of vaidhi bhakti according to his inclinations. He teaches what rules to observe and how to eliminate the obstacles. The guru shows the candidate of raganuga bhakti how to cultivate suitable rasa corresponding to the disciple's natural taste.

     

    There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show. It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood. If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple. It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhura rasa. If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru.

     

     

     

    For fear of enlarging the book, I have made a summary study of sadhana bhakti. Those who have desire to know more about this can study the Purva Vibhaga of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and the Bhakti Sandarbha.

     

    If you don't have access to a qualified guru that doesn't mean you are out of luck and can't take up the above process. You can still practice the above process with the aid of the writings of gurus who write on the topic and with aid from caitya-guru and other vaishnavas.


  23.  

    Fractal patterns are a particular manifestation of chaos theory, which arose out of a growth in scientific interest in irregular phenomena together with a new style of mathematics. The particular type of 'ordered' chaos referred to in chaos theory is a dynamic phenomenon, occurring when the state of a system, defined by a variable or a set of variables, changes with time.

    The track of this change is guided by probability; small changes in the variables determining the state of the system at any temporal point result in large changes occurring in the system as it progresses along the arrow of time. This gives rise to an 'ordered' chaotic pattern of system behaviour, ie. it is different to entropy, which indicates the tendency of a system to disorder.

    Chaos theory provides a useful framework within which notions of consciousness as an active agent in determining probable outcomes of events in the real world can be illuminated. If consciousness itself can affect the outcome of physical events, even on the micro scale, such minute changes will ultimately breed substantial mutations on the macro scale.

    Human history too can be conceived of as a self-organizing chaotic system, its progression of events unpredictable yet ordered, phenomena at each moment giving the total system fresh feedback from which to take the next leap into the future. To explicate the notion of feedback giving rise to patterns of ordered chaos (i.e. fractal patterns), a principle borrowed from mathematics, that of iteration, can be fitted to conceptions of human activity.

    According to the iterating principle, when the values fed into an equation are themselves the results of that equation's previous calculation, an infinitely variegated yet ordered and self-similar pattern emerges. In terms of human endeavour this iterative process becomes one of recursion, the notion of returning to a position to enable a kind of post-modern reflexivity; in theorising human sciences for example, this would mean the ability of a theory, as it were, 'to look at itself, yet again, in a new light, for the first time'.

    Using this recursive principle, in returning to an ancient, Aristotelian cosmology we can re-examine it through the mechanism of a remarkable new lens with which contemporary computer technology has provided us. The glowing electronic blooms of fractal sets which bud on today's computer screens provide a metaphorical analog for the interwoven patterns of our post-modern reality.

    These intricate, organic patterns unfurl a dimension where the margins between mathematics and nature coalesce in a cognitive space which has the power to transport us beyond the rationalist realm of language. The visual vigour of fractal sets seems to generate many a flow of ideas to irrigate the fields of new thought harvested by today's Digital Renaissance at the frontiers of technological evolution. According to one of the founding fathers of fractal theory, Benoit Mandelbrot....

     

    Whoever wrote the above from http://theparty.netraver.org.za/chaos.html , is ignorant of how our world actually works, which is a basic problem of chaos theory. Chaos theory is bogus because everything that happens is under the control of one super powerful all pervading all powerful intellect. Krishna controls everything, but some people who don't believe in or understand the absolute truth (Krishna controlling everything) but see patterns in nature that shouldn't be there without a controlling principle, come up with theories like Chaos Theory to try to explain how those patterns exist without an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent conscious controller.

     

    Have you seen the movie The Matrix? In the movie the matrix is a virtual reality world which is exactly like our experience of our world...BUT, that reality is an illusion, everyone in the matrix is in a sleep lie condition, their bodies exist in controlled nest-like shelves, millions of them in some warehouse where their bodies are being fed by tubes and they are unaware of where they actually are or what reality actually it. A computer is controlling the system where their bodies are being taken care of, while they sleep, but their minds exist in a dreamlike virtual world created by the computer, like the holodeck in Star Trek. They think that the virtual dream world created by the computer is the real world, they are unaware that their real physical bodies are in a warehouse being kept alive by a computer with feeding tubes, and that everything they think is real is a computer generated virtual reality. Our existence is similar to that in that our world is a virtual reality, it is an illusion of chaos, but in reality everything is comprised of and controlled by God, just like everything in the matrix is comprised of pixels within a computer and controlled by the computer.

     

    Without this knowledge people believe in various theories of why there is an appearance of patterns or design in our world. Chaos theory tries to explain reality without enough information of how our world actually functions, therefore it is completely useless as an explanatory schema because it relies on the conception that the physical reality is causal, when the truth is that physical reality is a virtual reality within and controlled by a super-conscious cosmic computer.

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