Gaurhari

Haribol, I am indulekhadasi's father...blah blah blah

Hare Krishna!

I am done testing

Hare Krishna.

I am the father of Indulekhadasi. That is not her actual name but we both decided to keep ourselves anonymous. Gaurhari isn't my real name, either. Indulekhadasi is a 14 year old girl. However, both of us don't understand why everyone is so amazed by her age.

Sri Guru Vaishnava kripa prarthi,

Gaurhari

That same faith and determination was not in his Godbrothers. That is shown by the offering of various reasons derived by calculations by his Godbrothers on why they could not help him.

With all due respect to Theist Prabhu, I do not think you can paint all of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers with one brush. Without being disrespectful to any of them (we should offer them due respect as they are part of our guru varga) , I think it is safe to say, different godbrothers were situated on different levels. There were some especially staunch pure devotees such as Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Kesava Maharaj, Srila Madhava Maharaj, Srila B.P. Puri Maharaj, Srila B.S.Goswami Maharaj, etc. I do not like to think that pure devotees think with a calculative spirit.

This doesn't mean that many of his Godbrothers were not great devotees in their own right. But even at the higher levels their are distinctions of faith and empowerment.

I can understand the distinction in empowerment but I am not so sure about faith. Once a devotee is considered 100% pure (0% material desire, or topmost uttama adhikari/situated in svarup siddhi), how can there be a difference in faith? Of course there can be difference in one's rasa (relationship) with Krishna.

We would do well to meditate upon the following by Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaj:

 

 

 

Some devotees have a preaching nature, whereas others may be of the

secluded type, but that does not mean that all who are of the secluded

nature are lower and all who are of the preaching nature are higher.

We can't say that. They should be judged according to their surrender

and acceptance of Krsna. Both Gaura lila and Krsna lila are the

highest in Goloka, but if we are bold enough to assert that Gaura lila is

higher than Krsna lila because of its magnanimous dealings, because it

is distributing itself, it should be given more importance. In that

consideration, it is superior to Krsna lila. And if we are to follow very

strictly this point, then of course, we may have to appreciate the

preaching section of the Vaisnavas, considering that they are doing the

most beneficial work in the universe (loka hitaya ca).

"The preachers are more fortunate because through them Krsna is

trying to release many fallen souls." A relative form of vision may be

seen in that way: "Gaura lila is higher than Krsna lila. Why? Because

it is spacious and broad; it is available to everyone. And in Gaura lila,

Krsna is distributing himself to the fallen." This is something in

addition to Krsna lila. Then, whenever we find that good fortune has

made someone an agent to raise up the fallen souls, we may have

some greater appreciation for him. Some justification for considering

 

 

the preachers to be more fortunate may come if we consider that

Krsna is better when preaching then when playing within his own

group.

Naturally, we will have preference for the preachers who have brought

Krsna consciousness here amongst us. Krsna has chosen certain

devotees as his agents to preach about him to the fallen souls. And that

is more desirable for us, in our present position. So, if we develop our

perspective in that line, of course we can say that fallen souls like us

will give more stress to those who are the cause for our delivery. To

think that some agents are preferable to others because the symptom of magnanimity is more easily traceable in them is a relative view, inthe ultimate context of reality.

 

 

Although sometimes we may judge Vaisnavas according to their

different activities, we are not always correct, because a devotee is

chosen for a particular service by the Lord, and whatever the Lord

wants to do through him is done, by His will. This is the underlying

principle: it is His selection. Sometimes the selection comes to A,

sometimes to B, and sometimes to C. We are all at the disposal of the

Lord's infinite will, and according to His sweet will, according to how

Krsna wants to utilize us, our activities will be successful. That is the

absolute consideration. We cannot fail to connect success with the

medium; there is also some value in that, but we must consider that

Krsna is there in the background. We must always understand that the divine will, the highest will, is working through us. So, we should notbe extreme in judging a devotee according to external considerations.

 

I for one will never see Prabhupada and his Godbrothers on the same level as preachers of Mahaprabhu's message. I only saw Srila Prabhupada come to the west to save low class beings like myself from the eternal fire of samsara. Everyone else had their calcilations to show why they could not come help us.

This is your prerogative, and you are entitled to see things this way. But to me, judging from Srila Sridhar Maharaj's discussion quoted above, this appears to be a relative vision, not an absolute vision.

My apologies if I have hurt your feelings. I am only discussing these things in a spirit of friendship and open discussion.

I don't get it. Why should it affect me at all whether I came from here or there or just appeared in the womb? Let's look at the psychology behind the big preaching hoax.

Because proper understanding of siddhanta is important in the progress of one's Krsna consciousness. As stated in Chaitanya Charitamrita(Adi 2.117):

siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa

iha hai-te krishne lage sudridha manasa

TRANSLATION

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krishna.

Furthermore, as stated by HH BG Narasingha Maharaj:

If one wants to argue that the jiva falls down to this material world from eternal lila with Krishna in the spiritual world, then that is tantamount to Mayavada philosophy because that suggests the fallibility of the Vaikuntha plane. The Vaishnava acharyas never admit to even a remote chance of fallibility in Vaikuntha what to speak of Goloka Vrindavana.

 

From Tripurari Swami's "Sri Caitanya Sanga"

March 11, 2005, Vol. VII, No. 4

The Dust Holds One Accountable

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

Q. What does it mean when we hear that the Vaisnava forgives but the dust of his lotus feet does not? And is there any difference for the offender?

A. The idea comes from this verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam:

nascaryam etad yad asatsu sarvada mahad-vininda kunapatma-vadisu

sersyam mahaparusa-pada-pamsubhir nirasta-tejahsu tad eva sobhanam

“It is not out of the ordinary for evil persons who always think of the transient material body as the self to regularly deride great souls. Appropriately such envy on the part of materialistic persons causes them to become diminished in stature by the influence of the dust of the feet of great personalities (mahapurusa-pada-pamsubhir).” (SB. 4.4.13)

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura draws on this verse in his Madhurya-Kadambini. Therein he discusses sadhu ninda (blaspheming devotees) in relation to anarthas arising from offenses to Nama Prabhu, the holy name of Krsna. The Thakura explains that great devotees (maha-bhagavatas) do not take offense because they are indifferent to honor and dishonor. However, should one who has offended a maha-bhagavata think that because of this fact an offender does not need to approach the maha-bhagavata's feet for forgiveness, one should think again. Why? Although maha-bhagavatas do not take offense, the dust of their feet does hold offenders accountable. Thus the spirit behind this statement is that one who has offended a great soul must approach that soul for forgiveness. Don't think otherwise.

Certainly the Lord takes offense when his devotees are vilified. Why then is the dust mentioned? What is the dust? The Lord is not the dust at the feet of his devotees. Although he would like to be, the Lord's devotees will never allow this. This dust represents the servants of the maha-bhagavata, who are fulfilling the Lord's most cherished desire to serve his dear devotees. Although his great devotees will never take service from the Lord, they mercifully accept service from others on his behalf and in doing so their bodily necessities and other needs are met. Thus it is through the servants of the great devotees that the Lord's desire to see his devotees personally served and glorified is fulfilled. In this sense the Lord is present in these servants, and when they take offense it also indicates that the Lord is offended.

Related to post #8 above, here is another interesting way to look at/interpret the phrase "Back to Godhead" (from "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall" (Chapter 28) book by Kundali/Satyanarayan Prabhus. I especially like the analogy used in the bolded section (highlighted by me for emphasis) below.

Yet another argument of the fall-vadis is that since Çréla Prabhupäda used the term "going back home" and named his magazine Back to Godhead, that he surely accepted that the jévas falls from Vaikuëöha.

We could accept such a logic if it were supported by scripture and all statements to the contrary were satisfactorily reconciled. But this is impossible in light of all the above discussion. Lord Kåñëa is the ultimate source of everything and everyone. So although we have always been in the material world, when we go to Kåñëa and join in His lélä it is not improper to say that we go back to Godhead.

For example, the American Ambassador to India lives in Delhi. Suppose his wife gives birth to a son in Delhi and after a few years the Ambassador is called back to the States. If the Ambassador's young son tells his local friends that he is going back home, back to America, there is absolutely nothing wrong in his statement, even though he has never before been in America. Or a child takes birth in a hospital's maternity ward and after some days the mother and child go back home. This does not imply that the child was in the home previously.

The case of the nitya-baddha living entities is similar. They did not fall here from Vaikuëöha; they were here anädi, always. Jévas are parts of the Supersoul, who is an expansion of Kåñëa. He is like an ambassador of Vaikuëöha and representative of Kåñëa. Therefore jévas are part and parcel of Kåñëa, and are His servants. So it is proper to say that they go back home, back to Kåñëa or back to Godhead at the time of liberation. This is coherent with the çästra.

Having said all this, however, we find that Çréla Prabhupäda himself explained the origin of the name for his magazine Back To Godhead in the very first BTG back in 1944, in an article entitled Back To Godhead. Here is the relevant quote from the original article:

Archbishop of Canterbury: In every quarter of earth men long to be delivered from the curse of War and to find in the world which has regained its peace, respite from the harshness and bitterness of the world they have known till now. But so often they want the Kingdom of Heaven without its King. The kingdom of God without God. And they cannot have it.

OUR RESOLVE MUST BE BACK TO GOD. We make plans for the future for peace amongst the nation and for civil secrity at home. That is quite right enough and it would be wrong to neglect it. But all our plans will come to ship-wreck on the rock of human selfishness unless we turn to God. BACK TO GOD, that is the chief need of England and of every nation.

Following this Çréla Prabhupäda quotes a number of other influential leaders to show that they all agree that the need of the moment is to increase religion in the hearts of men. He quotes one John Younghusband saying words to that effect. Then he quotes Dr. Radhakrisnan, "We have to defeat tyranny in the realm of thought and create a will for world peace" which Prabhupäda incorporated as the slogan on the masthead. Prabhupäda continues:

These psychological movements of the leaders of all countries--combined with the orders of my Divine Master Sri Srimad Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupäda has led me to venture to start a paper under the above name and style "BACK TO GODHEAD," which implies all the words that we may intend to say in this connection.

There can be little doubt in that the Archbishop of Canterbury had not even the remote intention of implying that the souls fall down from the nitya-lélä of the Lord and now here he was advocating that we go "back to God". The real point of the expression was that we need to establish a thiestic society here on earth. Secular society needs to become God-centered. People were more religious before and by the influence of time the populace was turning atheistic. So the Archbishop is appealing for a turn back to God. Çréla Prabhupäda simply took advantage of what seemed to be emerging as a popular sentiment to launch his preaching periodical. He was an expert preacher according to time, place, and circumstance. No one can deny that. The idea that the expression Back To Godhead is pregnant with meaning stating our ultimate siddhänta stretches the true story a bit thin. But even if one insists that Prabhupäda had a deeper meaning than the Archbishop, still, our explanation given in the first part of this chapter will surely suffice.

Just to clarify, this is not actually Rocana Prabhu's personal writing. It is from Bhakti Sandarbha (one of the sat sandarbhas) translated and commented on by Satyanarayan Prabhu (formerly of ISKCON I believe, who also co-authored the book "Not Even the Leaves fall from Vaikuntha" with Kundali Prabhu)

 

Gaur Haribol.

Sorry, I meant Bhagavat Sandarbha.

Rocana dasa has written a very extensive article on this topic:

No One Falls From Vaikuntha

Well done, Rocana.

Just to clarify, this is not actually Rocana Prabhu's personal writing. It is from Bhakti Sandarbha (one of the sat sandarbhas) translated and commented on by Satyanarayan Prabhu (formerly of ISKCON I believe, who also co-authored the book "Not Even the Leaves fall from Vaikuntha" with Kundali Prabhu)

Gaur Haribol.

Anadi, Dandavat pranams. Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah. I respectfully disagree with your stance. You wrote:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o /> . . . these purports ... are against Gaudiya bhakti siddhanta.

1. Through vaidhi- (sadhana)-bhakti one cannot attain raganunga-sadhana-bhakti.

2. Vaidhi-(sadhana)-bhakti and raganuga –(sadhana)-bhakti are two different types of sadhana,

Vaiddhi is not the cause of Raga.

The above purports go against that what Rupa Gosvmi wrote in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.3.7::

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of sadhana (practice ) certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya || (cc 2.24.87)

 

“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.”

aizvarya-jJAne vidhi-bhajana kariyA |

vaikuNThake yAya catur-vidha mukti pAJA || (cc 1.3.17)

 

“Those who worship according to scriptural commandments, being aware of the Lord's superhuman prowess,

attain the four kinds of liberation in Vaikuntha.”

rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya || (cc 2.24.85)

 

“Through raga-bhakti, one will attainthe original Lord Himself in Vraja.”

rAgAnuga-mArge tAGre bhaje yei jana |

sei-jana pAya vraje vrajendra-nandana || (cc 2.8.221)

 

“He who worships on the path of raganuga will attain Vrajendra-nandana (Sri Krishna) in Vraja.”

sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti |

vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti ||

aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita |

aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || (cc 1.3.15-16)

 

“Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.”

I do not disagree with the sastric quotations you have provided. However it is wrong conclusion to state that the conclusions of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada and A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada are not in line with Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta. Quite the opposite.

There is nothing in these quotations in BRS an CC that indicates that for a neophyte devotee who has not yet attained a natural love for Sri Krishna, vaidhi bhakti is inappropriate. Vaidhi bhakti is certainly appropriate for such a person, because in the beginning, rules and regulations are certainly necessary to cleanse the heart. As neophyte devotees, we theortically understand that our goal is to attain vraja bhakti to Sri Krishna, and to attain this goal, we worship Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha Krishna with rules and regulations, waiting patiently for the time when spontaneous attraction (raga) will appear in our heart after it is cleansed.

The following quotes from two prominent Saraswat acharyas are very relevant:

From Srila Gaur Govinda Maharaj (from Mathura meets Vrindavan, page 234):

"The neophytes must follow all of the sastric rules and regulations of vaidhi-bhakti very strictly. That is the first stage. When the heart becomes purified by strictly following the rules and regulations then the other part of bhakti is raganuga bhakti. We are sadhakas, we are practicing sadhana. Sadhana bhakti has two parts, vaidhi and raganuga. The first part is vaidhi, for the neophytes. Then, when the heart becomes purified the next part comes, raganuga bhakti. Mahaprabhu's teaching is raga-bhakti. We are all gaura-bhaktas, all devotees of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu gives krsna prema through chanting the holy names. Attainment of that prema is the purpose of this rarely achieved human birth. This is Mahaprabhu's teaching. And Mahaprabhu is prema-purusottama, who gives krsna-prema. . . " (emphasis added)

From Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaj (present acharya of Sri Chaitanya Gaudiya Math) in his book Suddha Bhakti, pages 43-45):

"The different devotional practices, or sadhanas, have been explained in Srimad Bhagavatam. Now there are two general kinds of sadhana according to which according to which we can practice bhakti: vaidhi bhakti and raganuaga bhakti. Vidhi means rule or regulation. For those who have no natural love for Sri Krishna, vaidhi bhakti is appropriate. There are many conditioned souls who have no taste for worshipping Krishna, because they have no feeling of relationship with Him. When one has a relationship with somebody, there is an automatic impetus to serve or love that person. Parents do not need to be taught to love their children. The tendency is there due to their natural relationship. However, very few of us have any feeling of relation with the Supreme Lord, so there are vidhis, rules and regulations. We are told: "He is the Supreme Lord, He is the Creator and Sustainer. It is our duty to worship Him." Most of us have no spontaneous liking for worship, but will practice devotion because it is the injunction of the scriptures. Thus for ordinary aspirations, vaidhi bhakti is applicable.

Raganuag speans spontaneous attraction. Those devotees whose attraction to Krishna is inborn are called ragatmika bhaktas. They are the original associates of Lord Krishna. No conditioned sould can become ragatmika. But as conditioned souls we can have a relation with raganuga bhakti. Raganuga bhaktas also have spontaneous love for Krishna, but they have developed it through sadhana. If we can associate with them, then we might automatically develop a spontaneous love for Krishna that is very intense. But such cases are exceptional.

At present we worship the deities of Radha and Krishna on the altar according to many rules and regulations, our love being restricted by the injunctions of the scriptures. In fact, however, Radha and Krishna are the only possible objects of spontaneous love. The Vrajavasis, the inhabitants of Krishna's transcendental realm Vrndavana, think that Krishna is subservient to them. And the highest form of spontaneous devotion is found in Krishna's absolute counterpart, Srimati Radharani and her personal associates, the gopis. If we take the mantra from the subordinates of Radharani, the sakhis and manjaris- then this mantra will take us to Radha and Krishna in their mood of service. At present, however, we have just started sadhana and will not have this realization. We are thus eligible to perform vaidhi bhakti, but ultimately, if we go on practicing, then the desire to serve Radha and Krishna intimately will rise automatically from the core of our heart. The raganuga-bhaktas also follow the angas or limbs of vaidhi-bhakti, but with intense love. If we practice sincerely, eventually such intense desire to serve will spontaneously arise from within. We have to be patient, and for now we have to continue practicing according to the guidelines of vaidhi bhakti. . ." (emphasis added)

So Anadi prabhu, while I agree with you that ultimately it is raganuga bhakti that brings one to love Krishna withough any feeling of awe and reverence, this does not preclude the practice of worshipping Mahaprabhu and Radha-Krishna conjugal through vaidhi bhakti first for a neophyte whose heart is not yet purified.

I beg forgiveness if what I have said here causes you any pain.

Nitai Gaur Haribol.

by Nityalila Pravista Om Visnupada Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridhar Maharaj. I highly recommend it. You can find it online here: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru.html. You can also puchase it (hard copy) from Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math bookstore or from Srila Tripurari Maharaj's Audarya Bookstore. Good luck on your spiritual quest.

This is a very mature and well-written perspective. One I think Iskcon leaders should take note on and implement without there being any politics involved. Easier said than done!

varna= color; sankara= mixture or blending.

Hence, varna-sankara=mixture or blending of colors; mixture or confusion of castes (social orders) through intermarriage; or mixed or impure progeny (translated in the Gita as "unwanted progeny".

Hope this helps a bit.

From the Preface to Sri Krsna samhita (translated by Bhumipati Dasa; edited by Pundarik Vidyanidhi Das; Vrajraj Press 1998):

With folded hands I request the old-fashioned readers to understand that if some conclusion is found herein that is contrary to their preconceptions, it was written with particular persons in mind. Whatever is written about religious codes, however, should be accepted by all. The conclusions regarding subsidiary topics will yield the result of purifying some particular persons' knowledge. There is no profit or loss for one who believes or disbelieves in the different subject matters described in the introduction regarding historical incidents and time according to sastric reason and argument. History and knowledge of time is a part of Artha-sastra, economic scriptures. If one considers history and time according to reason and argument, there will be great benefit for India. By this, one can also hope to make gradual advancement on the path towards the ultimate goal of life. If reason and argument is combined with ancient beliefs, then all the accumulated moss of misconceptions will be destroyed, and in due course of time the odor of infamy will be eradicated from the people of India; then their knowledge will regain its health. It is my prayer to the respected professional scholars and devotees not to disregard this Sri Krsna-samhita afer seeing the independent conclusions mentioned in the introduction. If for no other reason, they will be forced to respect this book because Krsna's names, qualities, and pastimes are described herein. Sri Narada Muni has stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (12.12.52) (quotes verse)

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes and so on of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." . . . .

From the Conclusion to Sri Krsna samhita:

The main purport and necessity for writing this Sri Krsna-samhita have already been described in the Introduction. We have covered all relevant topics in the verses of this samhita, but we have not used the method that modern scholars use in considering these topics. Therefore I fear that many people will reject Sri Krsna-samhita as an old-fashioned book. I am in a dilemma. If I would have used the modern process when I composed the verses, then the ancient scholars would have certainly disregarded the book. For this reason, I have composed the main book according to the ancient method, and I have written the Introduction and the Conclusion according to the modern. In this way I have tried to satisfy both classes of people. Therefore I have been compelled to accept the fault of repitition. In this Conclusion I will briefly consider all topics. . . ."

It seems from all this that Thakur Bhaktivinod had a certain preaching purpose in mind in composing the samhita. He wanted to bring the modern scholars to the path of Krsna bhakti.