suchandra

Lowborn prabhu .... the ritviks have made up their mind. No matter how much you try, they will only see & hear what they want to . If I were you, I'd just let it go. No point arguing.

Thanks Deborah for telling what is good and what is bad but sometimes devotees also ask for scriptural reverence. Letter below by Srila Prabhupada explains that a spiritual master must be a liberated person who doesn't fall down from that position although non-liberated Vaishnavas can also become spiritual master provided they follow strictly.

However, Prabhupada wrote that letter in 1968 but did not repeat that his disciples were qualified to be diksa-gurus in 1977 and considered them as liberated personalities or at least as so much advanced to not fall down again. The high number of fallen sannyasis and leaders between 1970-1977 told its own tale and the opposite happened, Prabhupada wanted to stop giving sannyas. Why should he say to stop giving sannyas, when on the other hand he would appoint diksa-gurus? Can you see that contradiction? Diksa-gurus who can fall down, but stop giving sannyas? Till 1977 so many sannyasis were fallen down because they couldnt follow the rules of the disciplic succession even as sannyasis what to speak as full-fledged diksa-gurus and it should be clear that the qualification for being spiritual master even as a non-liberated devotee wasnt there in anybody, otherwise Prabhupada would have mentioned. Too many of the leaders/sannyasis failed, why should Prabhupada out of a sudden have taken up the position of such a high-risk decision when it comes to the most important part of a religious movement: Do the leaders live up to what they promise or does the movement end in a tragedy of losing its spiritual potency? No genuine acarya would play such a risk with his global movement for saving humanity.

New York,

My Dear Janardana,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated April 12, and postdated on April 24, 1968, with enclosure of letter from Kirtanananda Swami dated April 7, 1968.

I am so glad to learn that your examination in M.A. is successful, and I hope very soon you will have your Ph.D. degrees, both titles engaged in the service of the Lord. There are four things desirable in this material world, namely, good parentage, sumptuous wealth, sufficient education, and good beauty. These things are sometimes impediments in the service of the Lord because such persons with great parentage, wealth, etc., becomes materially puffed up, and thus deviates from Krishna Consciousness.

But when they are employed in the service of the Lord, their value becomes many more times greater. Just like zero has no value, but when zero is placed on right side of one, the value of zero enhances to 10 times; similarly, our life, wealth, intelligence, and words become 100 times 100 greater and greater if they are employed in the service of the Lord.

I shall always pray to Krishna that you may come out a successful and eminent scholar so that your writings and thoughts may be seriously taken by the mundane wranglers. Our only business is to present Krishna Consciousness to the ignorant mass of people, and if such people agree to hear in consideration of our important position in the material world, it is a great opportunity to place our submission, and thereby our mission is fulfilled.

Acaryas in the disciplic succession of Lord Caitanya teach us that we shall try to place the message of Lord Caitanya very humbly to the people in general and that will make us successful in our service to the Lord. I sincerely bless you that your future hopes to present Krishna Consciousness in terms of French custom may be crowned with success.

Regarding the action of B: We shall discuss the matter when we meet. For the present, you may know that this gentleman is very much materially ambitious. He wants to utilize Krishna Consciousness for his material name and fame. Sometimes he greatly offended our Guru Maharaja, and it so happened that at the last stage, practically Guru Maharaja rejected him. And the result, we can find that instead of becoming a great preacher of Krishna Consciousness, this gentleman has become artificially a head of a mundane institution.

To become a very important man in the mundane estimation is not success in Krishna Consciousness. He was first deputed by my Guru Maharaja, along with our late God Brother, to open a missionary center in London, and they stayed there for 3 years, but didn't make any appreciable advance. Except that spent enormous money of my Guru Maharaja, and later on they were called back to India.

So that is a great history; it is not possible to say everything in this letter, but for the present, be satisfied with these words, and later we shall talk more and more. On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities.

The statements of Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such eternal associates of the Lord; but anyone who follows the principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above mentioned group. The gurus from nature's study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts everyone as expansion of his guru.

That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like Radharani, sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession.

It is the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a certain group or caste, are called hellish. Your question about B in relation with his disciple is very intelligent and intricate, and we shall discuss at long when we meet.

Regarding Kirtanananda's letter, I may inform you that I always think of him and pray to Krishna for his good sense. That is my duty. Anyone who comes to me for my help or wants advance in Krishna Consciousness, and whom I initiate and accept as my disciple, I must pray for him and his welfare always. So Kirtanananda personally served me, especially during my illness, which I always remember. But because somehow or other he has misunderstood our activities that does not mean that I am no longer his well wisher.

I write at the end of my letters to my disciples, "Your ever well-wisher", and as such, I cannot become otherwise than being ever well-wisher of my disciples, even though he may leave me. So I was praying to Krishna that He may save Kirtanananda from his misunderstanding and if ever he chanted Hare Krishna at least once in sincere heart, I am sure Krishna would not allow him to go out of his influence. Therefore, I believe that he can never forget the Form of Krishna, neither he can deny His Personality.

It is good news that he is trying to establish a new Vrindaban, which I suggested through Hayagriva Brahmacari, and if he is successful, in his attempt, certainly it will be considered a great benediction upon him by Lord Krishna. When I offered him Sannyas, I expected such great achievements through him and if Krishna desires, he will come out successful in his great attempt.

Yes, I expressed my desire to go there through Hayagriva Brahmacari, and if I am invited, to go there, by Kirtanananda Swami, it will be my great pleasure to see the place and enjoy his company.

On the first of May I am proceeding to Boston. Last night we had a very nice meeting at Temple University at Philadelphia, and there were nice kirtanas and speeches, and questions and answers from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. They paid us $150.00 for transportation charges and my lecture fees, and on the 30th of April we are going to hold similar meeting in Long Island, at the State University of New York, at Stoney Brook. They also have promised to pay us $200.00.

Similar meetings were held in different parts of San Francisco and Los Angeles, when I was there. So there is great possibility of spreading our Krishna Conscious movement, and if we work conjointly, with serious sincerity, we are sure to come out successful in this great adventure.

I expected to meet you here in New York by this time, but I do not see any indication in your letter under reply. Anyway on receipt of your letter I am very much satisfied and I shall be glad to hear from you I think at Boston.

Hoping you are well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Food Contamination - A Much Larger Set of Problems

By Rowan Wolf of

http://civillibertarian.blogspot.com/2007/04/food-contamination-much-larger-set-of.html

4/25/07

Just as the Dubai Ports World fiasco (, , ) brought to public attention that the US has ceded control of our ports to international corporate control, the pet food contamination has brought to the fore problems with globalization, our food supply, and the ineffectiveness of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Those of you who have been of this story know that this was going to be a very big story. Well it is growing by leaps and bounds.

After the story essentially went dark for four days in the US press, it has reemerged with a flurry of articles on the inadequacies of the FDA (, , and many others).

As this story emerges in all of its various renditions, not so subtle variations also emerge. For example, the hogs that ate contaminated feed may (or may not) have made it into the food the human food supply. The US press is either being nonspecific about what food the hogs ate () or stating the hogs ate recalled pet food (, and ). Meanwhile the Toronto Star reports that the hogs were fed . One might argue that perhaps tainted feed of any sort is "disposed of" by feeding it to livestock. That is a frightening thought.

If tainted pet food somehow was disposed of (sold dirt cheap) to hog farmers, it was not isolated. Hogs in six or seven (or more) states have been found to have ingested melamine. Now poultry are also under question. Whether it was poultry feed, or poultry farmers are also on the dirt cheap pet food deal, is another question.

There is a theory that the melamine in the Chinese grains was a deliberate addition to artificially increase the protein content of the grain products. The motivation for this is purportedly that they were able to get a higher price for their products by doing this. As the presence of melamine has been found in wheat, rice, and corn products from China, then this practice could be said to be "standard." Now Soy has been added to the list of products from China to be inspected. Increasingly India is cropping up in stories - implying that India may be using a similar "competitive advantage."

On the other hand, tons of pet food have been recalled - the biggest company hit was Menu Foods. Were companies with recalled product looking for a way to cut their losses by moving the toxin containing pet food into the livestock (and poultry) feed market? Or is this too "standard practice?" According to the :

"Ten pet food manufacturers sent unusable dog and cat food containing the toxic chemical melamine to hog producers in California, New York, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah and possibly Ohio, FDA officials announced during a late afternoon press conference. Contaminated pet food was also sent to one chicken farm in Missouri, the officials added."

Based on this, one might pose the theory (assuming the hog farmers and who knows who else fed contaminated pet food) that this too is a "standard practice" among US producers - equally driven on all sides by profit. Perhaps bolstered as a (legally safe) practice as pet (and one presumes livestock) feed is under the FDA, but pork, poultry, beef (etc.) and byproducts are under the USDA. This might decrease the likelihood that such a practice would be discovered.

So the problem grows along the lines that the FDA really has no teeth and does virtually no monitoring (probably part of the same "corporation as customer model" that has resulted in various pharmaceutical disasters). For example, we now know that the FDA can't issue a recall on dangerous foods, and that they do virtually no monitoring of either domestic food supply, nor of food and ingredients coming into the country from around the world. Further, they apparently have no way of tracking where ingredients come from or go to.

We now know that in the globalized food market there are virtually no effective safety standards. While there are through the World Trade Organization, apparently there is no monitoring to see that even those minimal, industry set, standards are met.

"Free market" globalized capitalism meets the food supply. "Free market" wins all the way around, and how many die? Given that at least a number of hog producers (and perhaps poultry) now have on their hands "contaminated" livestock, where will they end up? Likely in feed for cattle, sheep, chicken and pigs.

From Sham: noun 1. something that is not what it purports to be; a spurious imitation; fraud or hoax. 2. a person who shams; shammer. 3. a cover or the like for giving a thing a different outward appearance: a pillow sham. -adjective 4. pretended; counterfeit; feigned: sham attacks; a sham Gothic façade. 5. designed, made, or used as a sham. -verb (used with object) 6. to produce an imitation of. 7. to assume the appearance of; pretend to have: to sham illness. -verb (used without object) 8. to make a false show of something; pretend. [Origin: 1670-80; orig. uncert.]

--Synonyms 1. pretense. 4. spurious, make-believe, simulated, mock. See false. 6. imitate. 7. feign, fake.--Antonyms 4. genuine.

There is something fundamentally wrong, and that wrongness is not simply in the FDA, or the USDA, or FEMA, or pick your system that seems to be failing when needed most. The basic institutions have been hollowed while billions of dollars flowed through their accounts. Meanwhile, citizens have been turned into consumers with voracious appetites to fill a void of meaning. The country we thought we had, the government we thought our tax dollars supported, is repeatedly being shown as a sham.

Apparently, what the sham is hiding is an elaborate - "a swindle in which a quick return, made up of money from new investors, on an initial investment lures the victim into much bigger risks." We are the victims, as are our pets, our environment, and even our planet.

This story is likely to fade from the news, as Dubai Ports did, and FEMA, and Mad Cow. It will not fade because it is resolved. It won't fade because the food supply is safe, or China (and whoever else) stops using toxins in the food supply. People will assume that such a huge problem, and such a catastrophic failure, must have been fixed. It won't have been, but more funds will go into FDA, or perhaps the FDA will be yet another agency rolled into the sham of Homeland Security. But the hollowing will continue. Finally, the sham will no longer be needed. Ultimately, the facade will crumble. By then all the power will be where it is already directed - the hands of the very few. The wealth and health of a nation will be gone, and the people will wonder "How could this have happened?"

Back to the issue at hand - "tainted" food

To make the whole issue even more complicated, it now appears that has in the tainted ingredients. It is now being speculated that this is the chemical which may be causing the damage and death in cats and dogs. Apparently, the most common use of cyanuric acid is in pools and hot tubs, but it is apparently also used as a fertilizer. This lends credence to , that this was a systemic food production issue. I speculated in that article that the application of cyromazine (a pesticide) might be ending up in grains from China. That a toxic fertilizer might also be involved only brings us back to the process of Chinese agriculture.

Agricultural practices in China are certainly under a cloud as was reported by the BBC - . As stated in the article:

More than 10% of China's farm land is polluted, posing a "severe threat" to the nation's food production, state media reports. ... Excessive fertiliser use, polluted water, heavy metals and solid wastes are to blame, the reports said.

And this is where the United States is getting millions of tonnes of food products.

It should not come as a surprise that the FDA is starting to test human food products. Of the "ingredients" now in question we have wheat, corn, and rice glutens, concentrated rice protein, and soy. Take a look at the ingredient lists of the food on your shelf - or the grocery store's. These are common ingredients in thousands of products. The frightening thing is that for some unknown reason this was not on the FDA's "to do list" as a common practice. However, as noted earlier, the FDA is being shown as another sham.

Finally NASA scientists can breathe a sign of relief - "overpopulated and polluted planet earth" can be left for good to live at a new location:

25 April 2007

For Immediate Release

Astronomers Find First Earth-like Planet in Habitable Zone

http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2007/pr-22-07.html

The Dwarf Carried Other Worlds Too!

Astronomers have discovered the most Earth-like planet outside our Solar System to date, an exoplanet with a radius only 50% larger than the Earth and capable of having liquid water. Using the ESO 3.6-m telescope, a team of Swiss, French and Portuguese scientists discovered a super-Earth about 5 times the mass of the Earth that orbits a red dwarf, already known to harbour a Neptune-mass planet. The astronomers have also strong evidence for the presence of a third planet with a mass about 8 Earth masses.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width=130 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>

<SMALL>ESO PR Photo 22a/07</SMALL>

<SMALL>The Planetary System Around Gliese 581</SMALL>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This exoplanet - as astronomers call planets around a star other than the Sun - is the smallest ever found up to now [1] and it completes a full orbit in 13 days. It is 14 times closer to its star than the Earth is from the Sun. However, given that its host star, the red dwarf Gliese 581 [2], is smaller and colder than the Sun - and thus less luminous - the planet nevertheless lies in the habitable zone, the region around a star where water could be liquid! The planet's name is Gliese 581 c. "We have estimated that the mean temperature of this super-Earth lies between 0 and 40 degrees Celsius, and water would thus be liquid," explains Stéphane Udry, from the Geneva Observatory (Switzerland) and lead-author of the paper reporting the result. "Moreover, its radius should be only 1.5 times the Earth's radius, and models predict that the planet should be either rocky - like our Earth - or fully covered with oceans," he adds.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width=130 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>

<SMALL>ESO PR Photo 22c/07</SMALL>

<SMALL>The star Gliese 581</SMALL>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>"Liquid water is critical to life as we know it," avows Xavier Delfosse, a member of the team from Grenoble University (France). "Because of its temperature and relative proximity, this planet will most probably be a very important target of the future space missions dedicated to the search for extra-terrestrial life. On the treasure map of the Universe, one would be tempted to mark this planet with an X."

The host star, Gliese 581, is among the 100 closest stars to us, located only 20.5 light-years away in the constellation Libra ("the Scales"). It has a mass of only one third the mass of the Sun. Such red dwarfs are intrinsically at least 50 times fainter than the Sun and are the most common stars in our Galaxy: among the 100 closest stars to the Sun, 80 belong to this class.

"Red dwarfs are ideal targets for the search for low-mass planets where water could be liquid. Because such dwarfs emit less light, the habitable zone is much closer to them than it is around the Sun," emphasizes Xavier Bonfils, a co-worker from Lisbon University. Planets lying in this zone are then more easily detected with the radial-velocity method [3], the most successful in detecting exoplanets.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width=130 align=right border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>

<SMALL>ESO PR Photo 22d/07</SMALL>

<SMALL>Velocity Variations of Gl 581</SMALL>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Two years ago, the same team of astronomers already found a planet around Gliese 581 (see ESO 30/05). With a mass of 15 Earth-masses, i.e. similar to that of Neptune, it orbits its host star in 5.4 days. At the time, the astronomers had already seen hints of another planet. They therefore obtained a new set of measurements and found the new super-Earth, but also clear indications for another one, an 8 Earth-mass planet completing an orbit in 84 days. The planetary system surrounding Gliese 581 contains thus no fewer than 3 planets of 15 Earth masses or less, and as such is a quite remarkable system.

The discovery was made thanks to HARPS (High Accuracy Radial Velocity for Planetary Searcher), perhaps the most precise spectrograph in the world. Located on the ESO 3.6-m telescope at La Silla, Chile, HARPS is able to measure velocities with a precision better than one metre per second (or 3.6 km/h)! HARPS is one of the most successful instruments for detecting exoplanets and holds already several recent records, including the discovery of another 'Trio of Neptunes' (ESO 18/06, see also ESO 22/04).

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width=130 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>

<SMALL>ESO PR Video 22/07</SMALL>

<SMALL>Watch the video! </SMALL>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>The detected velocity variations are between 2 and 3 metres per second, corresponding to about 9 km/h! That's the speed of a person walking briskly. Such tiny signals could not have been distinguished from 'simple noise' by most of today's available spectrographs.

"HARPS is a unique planet hunting machine," says Michel Mayor, from Geneva Observatory, and HARPS Principal Investigator. "Given the incredible precision of HARPS, we have focused our effort on low-mass planets. And we can say without doubt that HARPS has been very successful: out of the 13 known planets with a mass below 20 Earth masses, 11 were discovered with HARPS!"

HARPS is also very efficient in finding planetary systems, where tiny signals have to be uncovered. The two systems known to have three low mass planets - HD 69830 and Gl 581 - were discovered by HARPS.

"And we are confident that, given the results obtained so far, finding a planet with the mass of the Earth around a red dwarf is within reach," affirms Mayor.

More Information

This research is reported in a paper submitted as a Letter to the Editor of Astronomy and Astrophysics ("The HARPS search for southern extra-solar planets : XI. An habitable super-Earth (5 MEarth) in a 3-planet system", by S. Udry et al.) The paper is available from http://obswww.unige.ch/~udry/udry_preprint.pdf.

The team is composed of Stéphane Udry, Michel Mayor, Christophe Lovis, Francesco Pepe, and Didier Queloz (Geneva Observatory, Switzerland), Xavier Bonfils (Lisbonne Observatory, Portugal), Xavier Delfosse, Thierry Forveille, and C.Perrier (LAOG, Grenoble, France), François Bouchy (Institut d'Astrophysique de Paris, France), and Jean-Luc Bertaux (Service d'Aéronomie du CNRS, France)

Notes

[1]: Using the radial velocity method, astronomers can only obtain a minimum mass (as it is multiplied by the sine of the inclination of the orbital plane to the line of sight, which is unknown). From a statistical point of view, this is however often close to the real mass of the system. Two other systems have a mass close to this. The icy planet around OGLE-2005-BLG-390L, discovered by microlensing with a network of telescopes including one at La Silla (ESO 03/06), has a (real) mass of 5.5 Earth masses. It, however, orbits much farther from its small host star than the present one and is hence much colder. The other is one of the planets surrounding the star Gliese 876. It has a minimum mass of 5.89 Earth masses (and a probable real mass of 7.53 Earth masses) and completes an orbit in less than 2 days, making it too hot for liquid water to be present.

[2]: Gl 581, or Gliese 581, is the 581th entry in the Gliese Catalogue, which lists all known stars within 25 parsecs (81.5 light years) of the Sun. It was originally compiled by Gliese and published in 1969, and later updated by Gliese and Jahreiss in 1991. [3]: This fundamental observational method is based on the detection of variations in the velocity of the central star, due to the changing direction of the gravitational pull from an (unseen) exoplanet as it orbits the star. The evaluation of the measured velocity variations allows deducing the planet's orbit, in particular the period and the distance from the star, as well as a minimum mass.

Contact

Stéphane Udry, Michel Mayor

Observatory of Geneva University, Switzerland

Phone: +41 22 379 22 00

Email: Stephane.Udry (at) obs.unige.ch, Michel.Mayor (at) obs.unige.ch

Xavier Delfosse, Thierry Forveille

LAOG, France

Phone: +33 476 51 42 06

Email: Xavier.Delfosse (at) obs.ujf-grenoble.fr, Thierry.Forveille (at) obs.ujf-grenoble.fr

Xavier Bonfils

Lisbonne Observatory, Portugal

Phone: +351 21 361 67 43

Email: xavier.bonfils (at) oal.ul.pt

National contacts for the media:

<SMALL>Belgium - Dr. Rodrigo Alvarez +32-2-474 70 50 rodrigo.alvarez@oma.be

Finland - Ms. Tiina Raivo +358 9 7748 8369 tiina.raivo@aka.fi <!-- Ms. Riitta Tirronen +358 9 7748 8369 riitta.tirronen@aka.fi -->

Denmark - Dr. Michael Linden-Vørnle +45-33-18 19 97 mykal@tycho.dk

France - Dr. Daniel Kunth +33-1-44 32 80 85 kunth@iap.fr

Germany - Dr. Jakob Staude +49-6221-528229 staude@mpia.de

Italy - Dr. Leopoldo Benacchio +39-347-230 26 51 benacchio@inaf.it

The Netherlands - Ms. Marieke Baan +31-20-525 74 80 mbaan@science.uva.nl

Portugal - Prof. Teresa Lago +351-22-089 833 mtlago@astro.up.pt

Spain - Dr. Miguel Mas-Hesse +34918131196 mm@laeff.inta.es

Sweden - Dr. Jesper Sollerman +46-8-55 37 85 54 jesper@astro.su.se

Switzerland - Dr. Martin Steinacher +41-31-324 23 82 martin.steinacher@sbf.admin.ch

United Kingdom - Mr. Peter Barratt +44-1793-44 20 25 Peter.Barratt@pparc.ac.uk

</SMALL>

<!-- content stop -->

Harikesa, 1998: But we have seen that as soon as one deviates from the "party-line" he is considered a heretic and rejected, although any thinking person can understand that the time has come to search deeply within ourselves to find out why this movement is mainly interested in money, power, buildings and empty institutionalization without any real spiritual energy or power and with few realized souls, while the children are abused and neglected, and the women are used and exploited without real respect as equal partners in life.

Therefore our family situations are in chaos and there is constant divorce and broken families which ruins the children. Sure it also happens in material world, but someday you might wake up and see that ISKCON is worse than the material world, while proudly posing itself as the only bona-fide and authorized institution for love of God. If devotees actually had such love, then how could they deal with each other so coldly? You should open your eyes and see for yourself what is going on in this so- called spiritual society. I pray for Krsna that there is not and never will be an ISKCON in the spiritual world, otherwise I will reconsider going back home.

Good luck for you. My love goes to those who are actually capable of thinking for themselves and accepting gold, even from a filthy place.

Your guide as long as you want it.

Harikesha das

From Jagannath's blogging Hut:

April 24, 2007

excerpts from John Ralston “unconscious civilization” adapted to nowadays ISKCON society

Filed under: dichos — jaganat @ 7:54 am

Many are surprised that this management elite continues to expand and prosper at a time when society as a whole is clearly blocked by a long term leadership crisis.

There is no reason to be surprised. the reaction of the sophisticated elites when confronted by their own failure to lead society is almost invariably the same: they set about building a wall between themselves and the reality by creating an artificial sense of well being on the inside.

We live in a coup de etat in slow motion. none of us have chosen corporatism but our elites quite happily continue with it.

Liberty was ok for cavemen, but civilization meant a progressive diminution in personal freedom. Mussolini

Corporation is creating a conformist society.

We struggle with the old question of whether obey a superior even when the order is unjust.

Almost all of us are employees in some sort of corporation, public or private.

The primary obligation is loyalty to the corporation.

Where the many are there is security, what the many believe, must of course be true.

Control and efficiency is a secondary business, well behind policy and purpose and for that matter effectiveness.

Wrong management is about system and quantification, not about policy and people.

it is assumed that the public could not know enough to understand and it is not worth wating much effort explaining things to them.

Corporatism is antidemocratic and aimless.

Corporate anorexia -when does not work they cut, but you can´t shrink to greatness.

Cuts can´t produce growth and prosperity, but cutting- a negative tool- is the natural, as suffering is necessary to pay for our sins, so is reformulated as the cutting process.

The failures of an elite to lead effectively drives them further into the arms of ideology, where everything is inevitable.

What is needed is not cutting, but the consolidation of years of increment talk growth in services.

This ability to stop periodically, reexamine and consolidate progress is easy if people are able to deal with problems in a calm way through an overview. The corporatist atmosphere makes this almost inpossible.

The single most important innovation needed today is a calm look at the overall effects of what we have accomplished, followed by serious attempts at positive consolidation.

Decentralization of bureaucratic power. take the programs put of the bureaucrats. move down to regional and local levels, where the citinzery can have a human relationship with more modest grouping s of bureaucrats, and have a real impact on the nature of the programs.this can be if two conditions are met: funding guaranteed and national standards.

The GBC is in a long term crisis because they get less and less support from the corporation (temples) who play one against the other.

We cannot blame them if we cannot organize ourselves.

Now the GBC is handing essential programs down to the regional level in the name of increased democracy.

“Necessity” is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants, it is the creed of slaves.

The corporate system tells us that the democratic system is no longer appropriate, only active or passive agreement of the elites.

But democracy is not about prosperity. You can have poor democracies and progressive dictatorships.

Democracy is about the nature of legitimacy and whether the repository of legitimacy -the citizens-are able to exercise the power its possession imposes upon them.

We are having great difficulty today exercising the power of legitimacy. It has therefore shifted away into other hands.

Srila Prabhupada entrusted to all of us with the power of advance KC. We are handing the power to the elite, and paying the consequences.

Technocratic management is comfortable functioning in large management structures. this is centralized monopoly.

From the point of view of the elite, ISKCON´s problems are other´s problems.

They have power without responsibility, which is a basic form of ignorance and prevents enquiry and though. It is reduced to detailed linear argument based upon a fixed, iskcons view.

Those with power are passively certain of themselves as the wait to benefit from the inevitable.

Leaders in power become increasingly comic. their language becomes parodic, even nonsensical. They will say that iskcon is experiencing strong real growth and then in the same paragraph add that it has serious problems, well, which is it?

That is the way of medieval Catholicism (inquisition) would say that God is strong, good and kind therefore we must torture you.

And those who oppose the policies of the passive technocrats, tend to fall into a complex conspirational view of ISKCON. But there is no need for a conspiracy, their logic is public and self-evident. Complex, long range conspiracy requires conscious leaders. To treat the technocrats as such is to give credence to their illusions about themselves.

A more realistic approach to our problems would be to focus on the repeatedly negative self flagelating, doing-harm-to-do-good-character traits of our managerial class.

They use blaming the devotees of lazy, incompetent etc, using the philosophy (lazy in kali yuga, etc), but they overlook their far less competent management.

Efficiency is an arbitratry negative term; effectiveness is about content and results.

Technocrats fear: risk, thought, doubt, admission of error, research and development, long term investment, commitment to concrete places.

What are we to make of these managers who have had almost absolute control of ISKCON for some 30 years, 25 of which have been marked by general crisis.

Did they play a role in bringing the blockage?

They certainly have failed to produce a recovery.

Stalin demonstrated that the best way to power was through the control of personnel. It permits you to promote allies without reference to real accomplishments.

Now they re trying to push themselves to the brahminical standard through university degrees and educational programs.

After more than two decades of having their way the exponents of this theory have no results to show us. They concentrate in any remaining details to prove their point.

Only in severe crisis do the elite group allow the governments (temples) to do their job.

Technocratic class often relies on technology because the inanimate objects can take on a trajectory of their ownvand so cover for the managers inability to give leadership.

I would suggest that we are in desperate need of reformulating the idea of growth. Our society classifies Sunday feast as a cost; a car on the other hand or a computer is an asset which the economy must finance.

Our concepts of assets and liability of goods vs expenses has a negative effect on the reality of growth

The more sophisticated we become the more probable it is that value will lie in things which are not of direct interest: in other words we have to reward those things which society finds useful.

In our elites, there is no desire to initiate changes which would insert the concept of responsibility into that of power. Only a persistent public commitment by the cityzenry could bring this about.

The authoritarian say that populace will run amok unless kept in awe of some sort of authority. And fear of punishment is the best way to control us.

Criticism is the only help tool we have which while disclosing our inadequacies can at the same time awake us to the desire for greater improvement.

Criticism is perhaps the citizens primary weapon in the exercise of her legitimacy.

That is why in this corporate society , conformism, loyalty and silence are so admired and rewarded; while criticism is so punished or marginalized.

Here in our 10 million people country (Austria, 7th richest country of the world), there is no ISKCON temple since many years (closed without debts after Harikes left ISKCON in 1998, we even had to pay a so called "BBT debt" of 70,000 dollars, which some Swedish devotees, ex-Harikes disciples later commented as actual rip-off) but still the GBC passed 2007 the Resolution that this country is out of a sudden indebted with 200,000 dollars to be paid to the GBC. Seems like other devotees at LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK (read below) have similiar problems.

306. German-Austrian Emergency

 

[Action Order]

 

WHEREAS the following resolution was passed by the GBC in 2005:

 

404. German/Austria Yatra Emergency Action

[Action Order]

Whereas the German yatra is presently facing a severe crisis, and

Whereas the leading devotees in Germany have declared a formal state of emergency and have approached the GBC Body for endorsement and support of their plans; and

Whereas this crisis was not of the German devotees’ own making but rather was mostly created by the GBC-appointed former zonal secretary; and

Whereas, in pursuance of the European RGB’s reorganization plan, Germany has agreed to become a single zone and region with Austria, which will add a further financial burden of 150,000 Euros to the German leaders’ financial obligation; therefore

It is hereby RESOLVED that:

 

The GBC Body, having heard the plans of the German yatra, gives its unqualified endorsement to ISKCON Germany’s "Declaration of Emergency and Solidarity Action 2005-07."

The GBC body encourages all ISKCON preachers to visit Germany and share their spiritual values and strength with the devotees there, who are very much in need of association.

The GBC Body is encouraged by the German yatra’s plans to work unitedly to raise funds to settle the long-standing debts and obligations. ISKCON centers around the world may want to give opportunity to the German leaders to carry out fundraising programs in their local area, in coordination with existing programs.

GBC members and guests may want to express solidarity with the effort by making token financial pledges.

Due to the crisis situation, the German yatra shall be exempt from GBC fees for 2005-2007, as well as past due fees since the crisis began.

That, in view of the German leaders’ willingness to accept into its zone Austria (which comes with a 150,000 Euro debt), the European RGB especially should work to find ways and means to help the German-Austria zone resolve its financial crisis.

And WHEREAS the yatra has made impressive progress in its reorganization, in solving critical problems, and in paying back half of its 1.000.000EU debts.

 

WHEREAS the yatra needs the emergency program to be extended until 2010 to complete repayment of another 500.000EU in debts and to further improve its organization.

 

WHEREAS the European GBC members have recommended that ISKCON Germany’s "Declaration of Emergency and Solidarity Action 2005-07" be extended until 2010 and that the yatra continue to be exempt of all GBC, IC, and YCF fees until 2010.

 

Therefore it is hereby RESOLVED:

 

That resolution 404 of 2005 be extended until the end of 2010 and that the yatra continue to be exempt from all GBC, IC, and YCF fees till then.

 

That is a great post Bhakta Omer! Seems like you've got a good understanding. Please continue to rea Srila Prabhupada's books and follow our parampara system.

 

Krishnakant is the least qualified to speak about such topics. In fact, the infighting has started within the IRM ranks. They won't last long and the reason is because they depend on some concocted philososphy.

Bhaktin Deborah, seems strongly you're quite experienced, greatly learned and have a lot of spiritual wisdom to share with others!

Let's say the Tel Aviv University, department of Comparative Study of Religion, invites you to speak about Genuine Guru-tattva of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava Tradition, or in other words, how to examine if a present Hare Krishna guru lives up to what he promises. Let's say you're just about to start, repeating what the GBC chairman Bhakti Vaibhava Swami says, "listen to what you feel within your mind", suddenly the university's classroom door opens and a camera team of a local TV station comes in: "We heard you speak about how to find out a genuine spiritual master within the Vaishnava tradition and considered to tape record it for our weekly esoteric broadcast!"

The students of course did some research work to ask you the right questions and while three tv cameras point at you, you're being asked: "Deborah, a spiritual master in the Vaishnava tradition is considered to be worshipped as good as G_d, his word is as good as G_d's, what to do if out of sudden such a guru quits his job like it happend 35-times within the Hare Krishna movement? How can we know in advance if a Vaishnava diksa-guru is 100% genuine, actually representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, worth being worshipped by the human society in the whole world?

Is it also required to take up a great risk when surrendering your live, like, you betcha, this person is a 100% pure devotee of the Lord who can lead me to the highest perfection of devotional service? How can we be 100% sure not to get cheated? Or does such a guarantee not exist? Or, lets say such a spiritual master doesnt quit his job, stays in office, but is not advanced enough to lead his followers/disciples up to the level of pure devotional service, they instead remain stuck on the level of karma-misra-bhakti? How to avoid of being educated third-class by such a spiritual master, although he stays in office for the rest of his live?

What will you say, please enlighten us! I'm sure that (read below) Damodar dasa, would ask very similiar questions, although he grew up within ISKCON since the age of 4.

HARE KRISHNA NAMHATA PREACHING CENTER

SRI RADHA GOVINDA TEMPLE

Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness

(ISKCON)

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

154/4, 5 Soi Putho Osoth, New Road Opp. K. Building, Suriwongse, Bangkok

Thailand Phone: 02-235-7132-33, Mobile: 06-988-6513

Attention: All GBC

A report about Kavichandra Maharaja by Damodar Dasa, who is preaching in

Bangkok, Thailand

Background

I and my entire family are devotees initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and I am

a member in good standing of Iskcon. I entered Mayapura gurukula school in

1972 when I was 4 years old and completed my education in gurukula in

1981-82. I traveled to other countries before I came to Bangkok such as

Africa and America. I have been preaching in Bangkok, Thailand, for a total

of 17 years since December 1989 under the approval of His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja. When I first came to Thailand, I had no intention to

stay, as I was just visiting. At that time Lilaraja prabhu from America and

Isvaku prabhu from South America, disciples of His Holiness Jayapataka

Maharja, were the temple presidents. Overall, they were very good devotees,

but they were both desperate to leave this country, and talked to Maharaja

to convince me to stay here to take care of the preaching center. At that

time the two devotees were living in a 2-storey house on Sukhumvit Road Soi

65. His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja used to give them Laxmi when he

traveled to Bangkok, because the situation was very difficult to distribute

books and collect donations among the Thai population. It was nice of

Maharaja to provide support to them; I personally never asked for any

support. One reason His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja favored me was because

I was very hard working, and as I had saved some Laxmi for use in preaching

from when I sold paintings in America.

I saw Thailand as a good place to fulfill the order of my spiritual master,

Srila Prabhupada, to preach. I struggled here for a few years with a lack

of help and little association. I was gradually able to develop a

congregation of members until 2005. I was somehow able to get by, and there

were always devotees passing through Bangkok staying with me.

Since I am an Iskcon devotee, I have always advertised that the temple is a

Hare Krsna namhatta preaching center under His Divine Grace A.C.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and affiliated with Iskcon. We currently

hold simple morning programs, and noon and evening arati, weekly Sunday

evening programs always attended by a loyal gathering, and special programs

during the year for all the important vaishnava holidays, which are

attended by many. In all, there is a large congregation from the Indian

community numbering almost 500, and there are some Thais, as well.

All At Risk. But all this is at a risk of being destroyed by one person:

Kavichandra Maharaja. He is using one of his followers, an Indian student

here, and others to try to discredit me and to even threaten me. This

person, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is posting negative and

offensive things about me and the preaching mission here on a local Indian

website forum here, thaindian.com, claiming I am not in any way related to

Iskcon.

Kavichandra wrote a letter on official GBC letterhead in January this year

to his follower saying I am not affiliated with Iskcon, and instructed the

follower to spread the letter throughout the Indian community saying that

the Hare Krsna Namhatta Center is not affiliated with Iskcon (see Iskcon

Bangkok Notice). His other followers are also posting negative remarks on

the forum website, creating a negative environment that is threatening my

service here. No sensible sadhu, devotee or sannyasi would make such

comments on a public website.

This follower, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is also suggesting some

threat to me personally, even though he has never met me. On one of this

person's postings to the forum, he wrote: "it is because of the humble and

kind gurus like Jayapataka Swami that he {Damodar} is not yet forced to

leave his body." Action?

I would have thought that the GBC would have taken appropriate action to

deal with Kavichandra in response to the letter written by His Grace Gaura

Mandala Bhumi prabhu in 1998 entitled "I tried to serve you" (please see

attachment 2). But this was apparently not the case. He is still engaging

in actions unbecoming an Iskcon sannyasi and guru as shown by his attempts

to discredit my activities here, and he is possibly continuing to engage in

conduct unbecoming a sannyasi still (please see attachment "Kavichandra

Rectify Yourself").

What happened. I do not mean to bring up old subjects, but it has come time

for me to break my silence and fully explain some references about

Kavichandra that were made in the letter by Gaura Mandala Bhumi. If I

speak now, perhaps finally some action may be taken to deal with this

recidivist. In his letter, Gaura Mandala Bhumi said "there have been a few

rumors of Kavichandra being alone in a room with a mataji in Bangkok in

1995 (not proven)." Please note that the year was actually 1993, in March.

What happened was that in 1993 after the Mayapur festival, Kavichandra came

to Bankgok and stayed in the temple here which I had been managing under

the direction of he and His Holiness Jayapaka Maharaja since 1989. One

morning right after Tulasi arati, Kavichandra called for his female

disciple, Krsna dasi, from Finland, who was traveling with him, to discuss

something, whereupon they both went to the back of the temple. I observed

them both, unnoticed, go into the bathroom. After 20 minutes, Kavichandra

quickly exited the bathroom and ran upstairs to his sannyasi room, and the

female disciple left the bathroom a few seconds after. She saw me standing

nearby watching, and she appeared very distressed that I had seen what had

just occurred.

I do not understand why Gaura Mandala Bhumi said this incident was not

proven, after all, the female disciple telephoned me at the temple in April

1993 after their visit and confessed to me, but she also spoke and

confessed the same to Gaura Mandala Bhumi, who was visiting me at the

Bangkok temple with his wife. The female disciple confessed that she had

been in the bathroom with her guru, Kavichandra, and in his quarters

"serving him, massaging him," etc., because "he was sick." After hearing

this, Gaura Mandala Bhumi chastised her as to how she could do such a

thing. This was not just one incident: Kavichandra came to Bangkok many

times with this female disciple, and I saw her enter his room every night

where she remained until very late, or perhaps the entire night, as I took

rest around 11 p.m. Actually, the female disciple had phoned me many times

after their visit to tell me to keep quiet about what I had seen, because,

in her words, "no one would believe me since Kavichandra was a guru."

I can also confirm what Gaura Mandala Bhumi said in his letter about

Kavichandrda staying in the bathroom for hours, which I saw many times. At

that time, I did not understand, but now I realize that Kavichandra is

mentally and physically a sick man. On another one of his visits to the

temple here, I saw women's bras and underwear in his bag one day. I could

not believe my eyes that he had such undergarments in his bag, so I asked

him to explain. Kavichandra told me the items were for his wife and

daughter, who were staying in Los Angeles at the time. He went to the post

office the same day to mail the items to them.

Strangely, whenever Kavichandra would travel to Bangkok, he would first

stay in a hotel for two or three days before coming to the temple. On one

such trip here, he called me to meet him in an expensive suite at the

Bangkok Airport Hotel to bring him something. I learned from him that he

had already been in Bangkok for three days before he contacted me. What I

saw was something very unusual for a sannyasi: he was alone in the room

with two Thai girls.

On another time, he came into the temple kitchen and began eating out of

the pot used to cook for the deities while complaining, "this is too spicy,

this is not good," but continued eating. In 1996, I was told by the temple

president in the Honolulu, Hawaii, temple when I visited there that

Kavichandra was kicked out of the temple two days before I had arrived

because he was talking all nonsense and manipulating devotees, and

basically engaging in activities that caused a disturbance to others in the

temple. A few days after, Kavichandra telephoned to talk to the temple

president. When he learned that I was there, Kavichandra ranted and raved,

saying many negative things about me. The president told me, however, that

he didn't believe anything Kavichandra said, because he knew his background.

Since the incidents in Bangkok, especially the one in 1993, he has

continuously tried to discredit me. He created such a situation in Mayapur

in 1996 during the festival. Temple management told me that Kavichandra

complained about me and said he felt "uncomfortable" as long as I was

there, and so management asked me to please leave for the time being. I

know the reason that he did not want me to be there was that he was afraid

I might tell someone about his activities in the Bangkok temple that I

witnessed between he and his female disciple. Of course, I complied and

left Mayapur, but after he left, I was welcomed to return.

Apart from these incidents, even though Gaura Mandala Bhumi wrote so many

things in his letter about Kavichandra, why was there no stern action taken

against him. Action needed. Considering that he is in the sannyasi ashram

and considering all the things mentioned in Gaura Mandala Bhumi's letter,

Kavichandra should not be allowed to wear the sannyasi robes, or else have

the rules of Iskcon changed where one can break the regulative principles

but have no action taken if one holds a high position in the society? I

have seen some sannyasis and gurus who have either stepped down or been

forced by the GBC to step down because they had broken the regulative

principles. So why was Kavichandra allowed to maintain his status?

Standing. The question is just where do I stand in all this? I have kept

quiet for all these years about Kavichandra's discretions here in Bangkok.

But I feel I have to speak out now because he is threatening our preaching

mission here as well as my own devotional service. As Gaura Mandala Bhumi

stated, if Kavichandra remains a GBC member and the GBC of Thailand, then

Iskcon stands to suffer losses. He will ruin the reputation of our movement

in Thailand and other regions, for example by his instructing non-devotees

and those outside of Iskcon in Bangkok to post negative, belligerent and

offensive comments about me and my preaching mission to the Indian

community's public forum website that is read by an estimated 1,000 people.

I therefore ask that the GBC take some action against Kavichandra before he

ruins everything here, as he has done in other places in the past.

As far as I understand, I have been under His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja,

who is a faultless sannyasi and guru worthy of all respect and honor. Even

if he does not provide me a letter of recommendation confirming that I am a

member of Iskcon, I will always be indebted to him for everything he has

done in the past for me and my parents. If 3 GBC members, namely, His

Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja, Bhanu Swami, and Bhakti Purusottama Swami,

issue a letter stating that I am not affiliated with Iskcon, then I will

humbly accept. Attached are letters and emails I have sent to His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja in seeking his help. I have had no reply as of yet.

I feel heavy hearted in writing this letter, as being of Indian birth and a

devotee trained in Iskcon since 4 years of age, I do not feel good being

critical of another vaishnava, especially a senior devotee, sannyasi, and

guru. I hope that I have not committed any offense, and if I have done so,

I beg forgiveness. However, I feel that the stakes are now so high that

inaction would be the worst for both Kavichandra, Iskcon's preaching

mission in Thailand, and my ability in carrying out the instruction of my

spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant,

Damodar dasa

Bangkok, Thailand

Friday, April 7, 2007

Carol: Your Divine Grace, is the intellect helpful in knowing God?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The animals have no intellect for understanding God, but the human being has got that intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being.

Otherwise, as for material necessities such as eating, sleeping, mating, and defending: Both the human beings and also the animals sleep. Both the human beings and also the animals enjoy sex. And both the human beings and also the animals become fearful and arrange for defense. So, as for access to the material necessities of life, that is equal in the animal and the human being.

But the human being has a special intellect, more developed than the animals'. He can understand what he is, what God is, what this cosmic manifestation is, and what the aim of life is--how we should conduct our lives. These things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such prerogative.

Now, if we do not utilize these special intellectual facilities, then we remain animals. We do not make any spiritual advancement. So at the present moment, we are simply trying to improve our access to the material necessities of life--eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. We are thinking, "The dog is eating on the floor. If we can eat on a table, using chairs and nice dishes, that is advancement of civilization."

We are thinking like that. The dog is sleeping outdoors, but if we sleep in a very nice apartment, lavishly decorated, that is advancement of civilization. The dog is having sexual intercourse on the street, without any shame--and we are also coming to that point--but for the time being, if we have sexual intercourse in an apartment, in the name of love and so on, that is advancement. The dog is defending with his jaws and nails and teeth; we are defending with nuclear bombs; therefore, we are advanced.

But we have forgotten that the human being has got this special intellect to understand God. That understanding we are not pursuing. For example, you are going to be a doctor in anthropology. Is it not?

Carol: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Where is the sense of God there?

Carol: I do it only for a living. The other side of me is something else.

Srila Prabhupada: No, I mean to say that anthropology is a big scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there?

Carol: Right. I find it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like this study of anthropology.

Srila Prabhupada: Then why are you wasting your time speculating on anthropology?

Carol: Hmm.

Srila Prabhupada: If you cannot adjust yourself to this anthropology business, why are you wasting your time? Anthropology is a false science. There is no meaning.

Carol: I'm waiting to be led into something which is good.

Srila Prabhupada: The whole Darwinian theory is false. It has no sound basis. Darwin himself admits it is just a theory. Theory is not science.

I can propose some theory--"It is like that." But that is not science. Science means observation plus experimental proof. That is science. You observe how the rules are working, and when you practically bring them to bear in your experiment, then it is science. If you simply theorize, that is not science. Mental speculation. It has no benefit.

You can speculate, constructing a castle in the air. That is not a very good thing. You should present something which will benefit the people, something practical. That is science.

Carol: Do you think it is possible for people to live in, say, an educational framework?

Srila Prabhupada: Education--if it is not for the benefit of the people--then what is the use of such education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something better--that is education.

Now, this whole Darwinian theory is false. But people are giving it so much stress. First of all, no one--not even Darwin--can be independent. For instance, Darwin died. So he was under the control of something higher. No man wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is his independence?

Carol: That is the illusion.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. So if you simply live in illusion, then where is your education? If you remain in darkness, then where is your education? Illusion means darkness. So if you are in darkness, now, where is your education? And where is your philosophy?

Carol: The only way to remove this darkness is through love. Is this what you are saying?

Srila Prabhupada: Love is far away. First of all, you become educated.

Carol: How? In what way?

Srila Prabhupada: Education means right knowledge. Right knowledge. For instance, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So the inquiry should be, "I do not wish to die. Why is death forced upon me? What is that force--what is the nature of that force?"

On the other hand, if I simply resign myself--"Yes, some kind of force is there"--then whereis my knowledge?

Again, I do not wish to die. So education means finding out, "Why is death forced upon me?" Nobody wants miserable conditions of life, but miserable conditions of life are forced upon me. So first of all, I should inquire, "I do not want these things. Who is forcing these things upon me?" This is life's first philosophical inquiry.

Carol: I tend to approach from the other side and ask, "Who am I?" and "What is this thing that I call myself?"

Srila Prabhupada: But first, everyone has this basic problem. "I don't want these miserable conditions, but they are forced upon me." For instance, you are now a young girl. You do not like the idea of becoming an old woman. But you will have to become an old woman.

Carol: Oh, yes. Hmm.

Srila Prabhupada: Nature will force you. After forty years of age, you must become old, and you cannot remain so beautiful. This is forced. No one wants this. No woman wants that "I shall not look so beautiful, and my flesh shall be flabby, with no more luster." I don't want all these things. Why are they forced?

Carol: Suffering and pain lead people to God, don't they?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is the law. But we are so dull-headed that we do not inquire. That is my statement--that you should inquire, "Who has made this law? Who is forcing these things upon me?" After you make this inquiry, then you can inquire about God's actual identity and your actual identity. But first of all, you must be aware of your situation--that these miserable conditions are being forced upon you.

For instance, a dog cannot understand that he's on a chain. He's leading a life most dependent, most miserable. And yet he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is a dog's life. If the master wants to kill him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. Sometimes he even jumps.

That is a dog's life--not human life. Human life means realizing, "I am dependent at every step, and still I am declaring myself independent. What is this nonsense?" This inquiry should be there. "I am dependent at every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but still I am claiming, 'I am independent.' Why?"

Carol: Your Divine Grace, is it possible to carry out this inquiry while you're engaged in ordinary daily activities?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, certainly. You can become spiritually realized in any walk of life, regardless of your daily activities.

The thing is, this is the real inquiry: "Why I am put into these conditions which I do not like? Who is forcing them upon me? Wherefrom has my life begun? What is the ultimate goal of my life?" These things should be asked. That is the proper inquiry of the human being.

Without getting answers to these questions, we cannot solve the very real problems of birth, death, old age, and disease. Instead, like Darwin, we are forced to theorize something utopian. What is the use of such so-called knowledge?

------------------------------

Perth, Australia, on May 9, 1975, between His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Carol Cameron, then a doctoral candidate in anthropology.

-------

Seems like in India they also have this "coffee klatsch" websites with, ..."but Abishek put sindoor on my forehead in front of the ISKCON temple in Juhu beach...."

Jhanvi, Abhishek's ex-wife?

http://hindi.galatta.com/entertainment/livewire/hindi/livewire/id/8547/rss/1/news/Jhanvi.html

April 21, 2007 Model-turned-actress Jhanvi Kapoor was seen protesting at the venue of Abhishek's wedding with Aishwarya this afternoon in front of Amitabh Bachchan's house, Prateeksha. She started slitting her wrists and was taken to the police station by a reporter after she started bleeding. She told the media that Samajwadhi party leader Amar Singh had also smashed her car threatening her to withdraw her accusation against Abhishek Bachan. A formal complaint was launched against her for suicidal attempt, but was soon released on bail. She claimed that she was having an affair with the actor since 18 months after they first met during their film, Dus and that Abhishek had also applied sindoor on her forehead in front of the Iskcon temple in Juhu.

<small>Today starts the World Cow Conference to be held for eight days at Ramachandrapur, surely a contact point to ask such question why ISKCON leaders rather support that cows are being kept outside of ISKCON. Although when it comes to the shoe leather mafia in European countries - every second pair of shoes is made with leather from holy cows in India, India itself as so called stronghold of treating the cow like mother doesnt come off that well. Could be that the invitation of Bollywood cine stars is rather meant to divert attention....

"Special invitees including MP Chief Minister Shivaraj Singh Chavan, former governor, Bihar M Ramajois, Minister D H Shankarmurthy, Opposition leader at the center L K Advani, Gurugangadas from ISKCON, Italy, (e-mail: giridhari.rnATpamho.net ) Rajasthan CM Vasundara Raje Sindhya and others will visit the conference </small>at Ramachandrapur <small>during eight days."

</small>Cine stars give special look to Vishwa Go-Sammelana

Saturday April 21 2007 12:04 IST

<small>SHIMOGA: Presence of dignitaries, politicians and important personalities, especially cine artists has given a remarkable touch to Vishwa Go-Sammelana to be inaugurated on Saturday.

Bollywood stars Suresh Oberoi and his son Vivek Oberoi are staying in two small cottages built at the mutt. They will be attending the whole nine-day conference.

This is not new for Vivek Oberoi, he is known to have interest in attending spiritual and programmes showing love for animals. It is said that he wears ayyappa mala and is regularly visiting Ayyappa temple.

He is always seen attending campaigns and programmes organised to save and welfare of animals. Now, Vishwa Go-Sammelana is one which he never thought of missing.

In the presence of Seer Raghaveshwara Bharathi and other dignitaries Vishwa Go-Sammelana will be gracefully inaugurated at Ramachandrapur Mutt on Saturday.

Chief Minister H D Kumaraswamy will inaugurate the conference at 3 pm on Saturday. Central Human Resource Minister M A Patmi, DCM Yediyurappa, Ministers G T Devegowda, Eshwarappa, H D Revanna, Basavaraj Horati, Ramachandre Gowda and others will be present on the day.

Special invitees including MP Chief Minister Shivaraj Singh Chavan, former governor, Bihar M Ramajois, Minister D H Shankarmurthy, Opposition leader at the center L K Advani, Gurugangadas from ISKCON, Italy, Rajasthan CM Vasundara Raje Sindhya and others will visit the conference during eight days.</small>

<small>Today starts the World Cow Conference to be held for nine days at Ramachandrapur, surely a contact point to ask such question why ISKCON leaders rather support that cows are being kept outside of ISKCON. Although when it comes to the shoe leather mafia in European countries - every second pair of shoes is made with leather from holy cows in India, India itself as so called stronghold of treating the cow like mother doesnt come off that well. Could be that the invitation of Bollywood Cine stars is staged to divert attention....</small>

<small>

"Special invitees including MP Chief Minister Shivaraj Singh Chavan, former governor, Bihar M Ramajois, Minister D H Shankarmurthy, Opposition leader at the center L K Advani, Gurugangadas from ISKCON, Italy, Rajasthan CM Vasundara Raje Sindhya and others will visit the conference </small>at Ramachandrapur <small>during eight days."

</small>Cine stars give special look to Vishwa Go-Sammelana

Saturday April 21 2007 12:04 IST

<small>SHIMOGA: Presence of dignitaries, politicians and important personalities, especially cine artists has given a remarkable touch to Vishwa Go-Sammelana to be inaugurated on Saturday.

Bollywood stars Suresh Oberoi and his son Vivek Oberoi are staying in two small cottages built at the mutt. They will be attending the whole nine-day conference.

This is not new for Vivek Oberoi, he is known to have interest in attending spiritual and programmes showing love for animals. It is said that he wears ayyappa mala and is regularly visiting Ayyappa temple.

He is always seen attending campaigns and programmes organised to save and welfare of animals. Now, Vishwa Go-Sammelana is one which he never thought of missing.

In the presence of Seer Raghaveshwara Bharathi and other dignitaries Vishwa Go-Sammelana will be gracefully inaugurated at Ramachandrapur Mutt on Saturday.

Chief Minister H D Kumaraswamy will inaugurate the conference at 3 pm on Saturday. Central Human Resource Minister M A Patmi, DCM Yediyurappa, Ministers G T Devegowda, Eshwarappa, H D Revanna, Basavaraj Horati, Ramachandre Gowda and others will be present on the day.

Special invitees including MP Chief Minister Shivaraj Singh Chavan, former governor, Bihar M Ramajois, Minister D H Shankarmurthy, Opposition leader at the center L K Advani, Gurugangadas from ISKCON, Italy, Rajasthan CM Vasundara Raje Sindhya and others will visit the conference during eight days.</small>

Suchandra prabhu ... are you a ritvik? Your posts seem to strongly suggest you are.

 

The ritviks are trying very hard to project an 'empty & desolate' (in your words) image of ISKCON temples. However, the ones I have been to have been thriving. My local center is drawing such crowds on Sundays for the love feast program even in the cold winter months that the devotees are having a tough time keeping up. The question is this ... admittedly, ISKCON has its own share of problems, but why are you guys trying so hard to project an image which isn't true? Certainly, there are temples that have fallen upon difficult times but it's not the case with every temple.

 

I'm disappointed that you'd quote from the ritvik magazine BTP, which has next to nothing of nectarian value. By the article's own admission, Prahladananda Swami is not an Uttama adhikari. Yet you go on to say that he cannot be biased. You contradict yourself!

No, I dont belong to any faction, but since there're more ex-Iskconites/Iskcon-victims living outside of ISKCON than there're devotees within ISKCON and quite a lot who claim of being ritviks/Prabhupadanugas, it is surely foolish to brush them under the carpet just like that with a flip of your left hand. I didnt write that article but the article says that Prahladananda Swami cannot be biased and I also didnt say that Prahladananda Swami is not an uttama adikary. Anyway just wanted to find out what is the feedback here at audarya since the Back to Prabhupada magazine isnt published online.

Gaurasundar prabhu's article to make one's career as spiritual master for Bhakta Omer from chakra.org:

Many Are Qualified to Initiate

by Gaursundar das (Denver, Colo.)

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/succMar25_07_02.html

Posted March 25, 2007

ISKCON seems to operate within the realms of inequality. As a devotee since 1979, I find it disconcerting that the GBC is going against guru, shastra and sadhu concerning recognition as a leader in Srila Prabhupada's movement.

Who came up with the rule that you had to be voted into the sannyasa ashram? This is between the guru and his or her disciple. Such a rule is directly against shastra.

For the sincere disciples of Srila Prabhupada, I salute you, but why are only direct initiates of Srila Prabhupada allowed to initiate devotees into spiritual life? There are certainly many others in the movement who possess the necessary qualifications. In the shastras there are many examples of a guru telling disciples to go out and initiate people as Srila Prabhupada instructed his direct initiates to do. Today's gurus should be telling their qualified disciples to do the same. If this is not done then ISKCON will certainly stagnate.

What we are doing is sending a message to everyone who joins that you cannot ever advance spiritually enough to help spread the movement until the direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada have all gone back to Godhead. Unfortunately, some direct initiates may find themselves in a different situation than they expect; perhaps they will have to be born back into this movement and feel left out for their whole lifetime. Hopefully, they will not get molested by demon-like scum that claim to be disciples of Srila Prabhupada but are simply disciples of the lower modes of ignorance and darkness. Think about it; wake up. This movement is not about spreading power, money and fame.

The disciple anxiously says to Srila Prabhupada after being told of the inevitability of thermo-nuclear warfare, "What do we do, what do we do?" Srila Prabhupada responds, "Chant Hare Krsna, and your life will be sublime."

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Haribol Mahaksa prabhu, well just found an animation about a nuclear bomb - it doesnt really works efficiently.

This animation depicts a proposed weapon with a one megaton yield.

The funding for this weapon was cut in 2005 defense appropriations.

However, the United States still has a B61-11 nuclear 'bunker buster'

in its arsenal which has a 400 kiloton yield, which could still cause

hundreds of thousands of deaths and spread radiation to other countries.

Union of Concerned Scientists:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=700 align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

Nuclear Animation

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

You have no idea how many times I've heard that argument from neo-hinduist mayavadis. "Yes, I know it's not consistent with the Vedas or with logic, but I feel it in my heart that it's true!"

 

 

 

 

Therefore: The parampara should not stop for the sake of ritvik initiation. That is my conclusion. I can't really see any different one yet. Sorry.

 

 

This could be the problem, too much association with Mayavadhis lead to not even understand when Prabhupada says, here is a nice ripe mango, taste it!

Bhakta Omer: Sorry, I can't.

But since you clearly say "that is my conclusion", may be you should read what an ISKCON GBC, Prahladananda Swami, ISKCON guru, Minister of Sannyasa, as published in the Back to Prabhupada magazine has to say. Prahladananda Swami's words carry weight and cannot be considered to be biased!

For those who may still have lingering doubts, we invite you to read below some extraordinary claims made by HH Prahladananda Maharaja, who is a GBC-approved initiating-guru, and thus these revelations come from a source which the GBC itself promotes as being authoritative.

“Unfortunately, since the departure of Srila Prabhupäda, the GBC Body has not maintained his clear authority structure. [...] In the absence of a GBC Body that clearly represents the desires of Srila Prabhupada to preach Krsna consciousness as a unified movement, the Society remains together more on the basis of a loose confederation of initiating gurus and independent local leaders, than as a unified movement of surrendered servants."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

According to Prahladananda Swami then, the GBC has deviated continuously since Srila Prabhupada's departure in having never maintained the authority structure given by him, and currently does not represent Srila Prabhupada's desires for spreading Krishna consciousness.

 

 

No uttama-adhikaris in ISKCON

 

Having trashed the GBC body, Prahladananda Swami now turns his guns on his fellow ISKCON gurus. First he defines an uttama-adhikari as someone who is completely aware of the Supersoul (the Lord residing in the heart):

"Such an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava is in perfect touch with the Supersoul and at every moment knows the Supreme Lord's desires."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

But Prahladananda Swami does not think that such a person exists in ISKCON today:

"If the GBC Body sees someone as a self-efflugent acarya who is completely aware of the Supersoul and Srila Prabhupada's desires and instructions they can and should follow his/her instructions. No one so far has been seen in that category."

(Prahladananda Swami, Wed, 30 Aug 200614:32 +0300, emphasis added)

"To spread Krsna consciousness in the absence of an advanced uttama-adhikari Vaisnava, third-class and second-dass Vaisnavas must follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and learn the art of cooperation:" (Duties of GBCandGuru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006, emphasis added)

 

 

Gurus were neophytes

 

'But as with the Gaudiya Matha, just after His Divine Grace's disappearance, leading disciples disobeyed the orders of the Founder Acarya to work cooperatively under the GBC Body and, although the GBC Body met yearly, each initiating guru virtually occupied the position of an Acarya in his zone. These diksa gurus divided the world into 11 zonal Acarya regions and disunited the mission. [...] The imitation of uttama-adhikaris by these neophyte devotees undoubtedly led to their fall-downs and many subsequent problems in ISKCON."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami 2006)

 

Prahladananda Swami is referring here wherein the 11 persons appointed to act as ritviks and make disciples for Srila Prabhupada, pretended that they were actually successor Gurus to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Bogus Zonal Acharya System still continuing today

 

“Thus in ISKCON we not only still have what amounts to zonal Acaryas in different parts of the world, such as India, but we have independent temple presidents or preachers accountable to no one but themselves."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

Here Prahladananda Swami has launched a not too veiled attack an HH Jayapataka Swami, the main guru in India, who was one of the original Zonal Acharya gurus attacked by Maharaja in the previous section. Hence Prahladananda Swami is effectively stating that HH Jayapataka Swami has been deviating continuously for the last 30 years, and that he is not strictly following the orders of Srila Prabhupada. As Prahladananda Swami further confirms:

"The main Problem is that the GBC Body is supposed to supervise ISKCON and they are not doing this service adequately. Therefore, many leaders are not acting strictly according to the directions of his Divine Grace."

(Prahladananda Swami, Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:32 +0300)

 

 

ISKCON gurus not selfless

 

"Presently the GBC Body lacks authority. Some of its leading members are initiating gurus who do not want to surrender their high degree of autonomy in the Society. Some leaders in ISKCON cooperate wich the Society only as long as they can retain their own autonomy. [...] If the GBC Body is to regain its authority, its members must become a disciplined body of devotees who are clearly selfless and en­lightened in their dedication to Srila Prabhupada's mission."

(Duties of GBCand Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

Above, Prahladananda Swami paints a grim picture of self-serving gurus whose calculated acts of co-operation are merely Machiavellian ploys to secure more autonomy and Power for themselves, rather than to selflessly serve Srila Prabhupada's mission.

 

 

ISKCON leaders are enjoyers, not servants

 

"The gurus, initiating and instructing, have important roles in ISKCON. [...] Only if the leaders sincerely try to become servants of the previous Acaryas and give up the controlling and enjoying propensities can Srila Prabhupada's mission succeed. If the leaders take up this mood, they will find infinitely more spiritual pleasure in acting as Krsna's simple instruments than in continuing even a subtle controlling mentality in trying to be appreciated as apparently empowered spiritual preachers."

(Duties of GBC und Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

Prahladananda Swami's use of the phrase "If the leaders take up this mood" indicates a hope that the gurus may one day curtail their "controlling and enjoying propensities": But why would he express such a hope unless he saw that this was predominantly their current mood? Why would Maharaja urge the gurus to give up such destructive propensities unless he could see them being exhibited?

 

 

ISKCON gurus in last snare of maya (Illusion)

Prahladananda Swami opens the section from which the previous two critiques of ISKCON's gurus and leaders are taken by noting:

"The last snare of maya is to think oneself God, or even God's pure representative, worthy to be worshiped and served by others. [...] It is an attachment that is difficult to give up."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

Seeing as Prahladananda Swami's then went on to invite ISKCON'S gurus and leaders to become selfless and give up their propensity to control and enjoy (which is fed by the receipt of worship and service by their thousands of disciples), one can only assume Prahladananda Swami believes they have indeed fallen victim to maya's"last snare".

 

 

ISKCON not really successful

 

Though even ISKCON will acknowledge that their preaching in the West has declined substantially, comfort is taken from the fact that at least in India and the Eastern Bloc countries things are faring better.

However, Prahladananda Maharaja gives a different perspective, stating that such successes are only due to temporary circumstances rather than being based on a platform that will yield permanent results:

"ISKCON sometimes takes pride in accomplishments that prove to be only temporary. [...] For example, in the former Eastern Block nations, in the absence of a strong Krsna conscious leader, a pattern is sometimes visible. After the demise of the Communist system, many people became interested in the process of Krsna consciousness and joined the temples. This resulted in a large force of preachers and a surge in book distribution. However, after some time the devotees married and had children, and then preaching and book distribution diminished [..] ISKCON's success appears to be due more to circumstances than to a viable management system that encourages long-term preaching. Another example can be seen in India, [...] again it is likely that success is due not to a viable management system, but to the unique circumstances of India."

(Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

Having criticised both the GBC Body and the Zonal Acharya gurus as being deviant, Maharaja of course conveniently sidesteps the fact that he owes his own position as an ISKCON guru completely to these same deviant entities; because Maharaja is one of the beneficiaries, whereby he lined up to take his guru authorisation from this same deviant GBC body, which also contained the remaining Zonal Acharya gurus at the time. Indeed, having attacked everyone else, to cover his own position he fabricates out of thin air the following instructions:

1) "Srila Prabhupada has given us the authorization process, that all his disciples, if authorized by the GBC body, can take disciples."

(Prahladananda Swami,Wed, 30 Aug 200614:32 +0300)

 

Srila Prabhupada has never stated that "all his disciples, if authorized by the GBC Body, can take disciples." The unauthorised, current 'guru by majority vote' system was invented by the GBC as a reaction to their previous unauthorised 'zonal acharya system':

 

2) "Srila Prabhupada created the GBC Body to oversee that his teachings are properly implemented within ISKCON. These teachings direct that everyone in ISKCON, including initiating and instructing gurus, work cooperatively under Srila Prabhupada's authority system to spread Krsna consciousness."

(Duties of G8C and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

There is no teaching of Srila Prabhupada which even mentions "initiating gurus" other than himself ever existing in ISKCON, not to speak of such entities working "cooperatively under Srila Prabhupada's authority system to spread Krsna consciousness." Srila Prabhupada did, however, state that only he would remain the initiating Guru:

 

 

"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75)

 

 

3) "Srila Prabhupada clearly established ISKCON's system of management with Temple Presidents, Secretaries, and Treasurers, under the supervision of a GBC representative and ultimately the GBC Body. He gave no managerial position to the initiating gurus within ISKCON." (Duties of GBC and Guru in ISKCON, Prahladananda Swami, 2006)

 

Yes, Srila Prabhupada could not have given a "managerial position to the initiating gurus within ISKCON", because he never ever even spoke of a plurality of "initiating gurus within ISKCON", period.

 

 

Conclusion

 

This is probably as much a devastating critique of ISKCON's current leadership, its GBC and unauthorised gurus, as anything that has appeared so far in the pages of BTP! As a fellow guru and ISKCON leader, being the Sannyasa Minister, Prahladananda Swami's words carry weight and cannot be considered to be biased! So if one of ISKCON's own gurus and leaders is stating about today's ISKCON that:

 

 

• Its governing body has been deviating for 30 years;

• Many gurus are deviating;

• None of the gurus are advanced in Krishna consciousness;

• Its leaders are enjoyers rather than servants;

• lt hardly has any permanent genuine preaching successes;

 

 

Who in their right mind is going to want to join such a movement?!

Being compromised himself, Prahladananda Swami argues that the solution to everything is simply to make the GBC much more powerful, rather than root out the underlying cause of the problem, namely severe disobedience to Srila Prabhupada; all stemming from the unauthorised removal of him as the diksa Guru of ISKCON. We have noted that Maharaja obviously cannot identify the real cause of ISKCON's malaise, since he himself is the beneficiary of its false guru System. He therefore needs to perform a juggling act which allows him to criticise all and sundry, but still ensure his own position remains intact. As we have seen, to do this he has simply fabricated the authority for ISKCON's current 'guru by GBC vote' system, to which he owes his own guru existente, out of thin air.

Though Maharaja's critique of ISKCON is welcomed, by failing to state the correct solution of accepting Srila Prabhupada as the Guru, but rather continuing to offer the same unauthorised and, by his own admission, unqualified gurus, he is simply ensuring the continued exodus from ISKCON into other deviant movements, such as the one led by Narayana Maharaja, which at least claim their gurus are qualified!

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

 

Well, my comment will be that this specific guru is clearly not a true one. But it doesn't mean that all the gurus in the world are not true as well. It's a well known fact that lot's of Gaurakishora das Babaji's disciples were cheaters. Does this make Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati a cheater? So this makes your question completely irrelevant.

And another thing that makes it irrelevant is that it still does not answer the question why Prabhupada? Why can't Rupa goswami or Mahaprabhu be my non physically present guru, in case of lack of a present one to be found?

I still am not convinced that the ritvik system was meant by Prabhupada to be used after his disappearance. As far as I can see it is clear that the ritviks were meant to give initiations in Prabhupadas name in times when he couldn't have been present due to his physical condition. I still don’t see here an instruction for stopping the ancient guru-parampara which we followed all through history.

 

 

 

 

BUT! If you can prove to me that Prabhupada DID instructed such a diversion from tradition, then we have a bigger problem on our hands, which is proving that Prabhupada did not diverse from the gaudia-vaishnava tradition. Or in other word's: To prove that Srila Prabhupada WAS RIGHT!

 

 

I cannot prove anything, just repeat what Prabhupada says in his books, lectures, letters and then it is up to Lord Paramatma who leads us to realize spiritual truth within our heart or sometimes not, although we heard it with our ears. When a ripened fruit comes from the upper part of the tree onto the ground by the process of being handed down from a higher branch to a lower branch by persons in the tree, the fruit does not break. If you call up the tree that you want the ripened mango from someone who is far up in the top of that tree it easily can happen that when he throws the fruit downwards to you that you are not able to catch it properly and when it falls with great speed on the ground becomes damaged. Srimad-Bhagavatam is held to be the ripened fruit of the Vedic tree. And as a ripened fruit is handed down carefully similiarly Krishna installed the system of guru-parampara that way of letting to hand down the transcendental knowledge from one pure devotee to the next. Krishna says,

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo viduh

sa kaleneha mahata

yogo nastah parantapa

Thus the mercy of Krishna comes down through the parampara system, and the respect offered to Krishna is offered up through the parampara system. One has to learn to approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead in this way. Thus if we want to approach God, we have to take shelter of the guru in the beginning (current link), then Krishna will be pleased.

As far as a 'concept' ritvic was introduced by Srila Prabhupada. Please be clear on this. The begining of this controvercy was early 1978, just after the samadhi of Srila Prabhupada. I was in LA at that time and distinctly remember this discussion going on then, what to speak of now. Ritvic is not a knee jurk reaction to fallen souls cheating others. It is vani from Guru.

 

This comes from Guru, Srila Prabhupada. No other Gaudiya guru's previously said to do like this. So you cann't just jump around as whimsy dictates and say, let me do as I want. I can be initiated as Rupa gosvami's disciple. No, you can not because Rupa Gosvami did not say for you to do like that. Srila Prabhupada said 'ritvic, yes'. And Prabhupada's dear most Godbrother B. R. Sridara Maharaja did/said the same 'Ritvic' after His passing for the SCS Math.

 

Hare Krsna,

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti

Thanks Caturbahu prabhu for clarification, it is of course simply amazing and leaves you speechless that there're still devotees who go on to repeat exactly what the GBC is preaching since 30 years and what is causing ISKCON's temples to become desolate, empty, closed. The demons must be really happy about this. Devotees who have read/heard all of Prabhupada's books/letters/lectures several times and this it what they have learned from Prabhupada: “if your diksa-guru falls down, dont worry, try another”.

Anyone who knows Prabhupada's teachings just a little bit finds out the opposite about guru-tattva, SB 5.5.18 November 1976, Vrindavan: "You are rascal if you are not confident that you can save him from the clutches of birth and death."

Although it says, "One who cannot deliver his dependents from the path of repeated birth and death should never become a spiritual master," (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.18), the GBC resolution says, no, ISKCON diksa-gurus dont require any specific qualification to accept worship as a pope whose word is the same as the word of God.

"Cesar's wife must be above suspicion". Just like High Court judges, they are also like "Cesar's wife", they must be above suspicion. Rumors of corrupt judges officiating will turn any State into a criminal chaos. Who can deny? But this is the situation of present risky ISKCON gurus being afflicted with too many rumors of corruption - present gurus afflicted of being cut of the same cloth like 40 previous so called guru colleagues fallen into disgrace.

But still the GBC insists that new disciples should take exactly that risk of losing everything.

"One should not become a guru to cheat the disciple”, http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/761106SB.VRN.htm?i=1976

GBC's reply: “No specific qualification of a spiritual master required.”

Prabhupada: "To mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas. These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gita that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification." (Sri Isopanisad)

How to expect that Prabhupada would have agreed that "so called acaryas" as mentioned above should have taken office within his ISKCON movement? But because cheating others by pretending of being a bonafide spiritual master of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava sampradaya cant be punished by our state laws, therefore people line up for this and think they can go on like that unchecked.

The seven purposes of ISKCON

When Srila Prabhupada first incorporated ISKCON, in 1966, he gave it seven purposes:

1. To systematically propagate spiritual knowledge to society at large and to educate all peoples in the techniques of spiritual life in order to check the imbalance of values in life and to achieve real unity and peace in the world.
   
2. To propagate a consciousness of Krishna, as it is revealed in the Bhagavad-gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
   
3. To bring the members of the Society together with each other and nearer to Krishna, the prime entity, thus to develop the idea within the members, and humanity at large, that each soul is part and parcel of the quality of Godhead (Krishna).
   
4. To teach and encourage the sankirtana movement, congregational chanting of the holy names of God as revealed in the teachings of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
   
5. To erect for the members, and for society at large, a holy place of transcendental pastimes, dedicated to the personality of Krishna.
   
6. To bring the members closer together for the purpose of teaching a simpler and more natural way of life.
   
7. With a view towards achieving the aforementioned purposes, to publish and distribute periodicals, magazines, books and other writings.

 

 

Bhakta Omer: I still don't really understand why Prabhupada is my link and not Rupa Goswami or Lord Chaitanya. Prabhupada passed away before I was born. I can't see how he is more currant for me then Rupa Goswami. Why can't Rupa Goswami or Lord Chaitanya, or any other acharya in our line, be my non physically present diksa guru?

 

 

Haribol Bhakta Omer and Deborah Pitts, thanks for taking time to post here.

I would like to answer this if you dont mind first with a counterquestion: Lets say you become a disciple of someone who says that he's a Vaishnava diksa-guru and you go through all the required steps of becoming qualified for initiation. You live as a brahmacari in his temple and surrender everything what you have. You give up all your previous material relationships and soley work for the pleasure of your guru whom you consider of being a bonafide pure representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krishna.

Then one day you come back from harinama to your guru's ashram and find the message that your guru has left with all the money, has encumbered the temple building with a high mortgage, took that money also and has left a written message: "sorry, but I'm a cheater, I cheated you all those years, now I cant go on with this charade anymore and want to openly enjoy life with my girlfriend who happens to be my disciple since 2 years, please dont try to find out where we are!"

Lets say you would have been a disciple since 7 years and all your previous material relationships are cut off. How exactly would you comment this behaviour of your guru? What would you do?

This sketch by Leonarda da Vinci shows that he must have considered how to use bull power the most efficient way, size of the of cart wheels etc.

I see that the moderators deleted the article that you posted and which caused me to leave this thread. Now that the article is deleted, I feel comfortable entering this thread again. Before I proceed, I'd just like to say that was a good move by the moderators.

 

Please note that I did not say anthing about the relative position of the ritviks or their opponents. All I did was state my belief that the parampara does not end with any one person. It is eternal and just as it has been going on for millions of years, will continue for the rest of time (as long as there is a material world, which seems like there will be ). Institutions may have their own problems which means that we must make adjustments to the way they are run. We cannot however change the principle itself.

Sorry for my shooting forward but usually debates between the living guru proponents and those who say that Prabhupada is the current link of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya sampradaya and that Prabhupada didnt order his disciples to sit as full fledged diksa-gurus on the sampradaya's vyasasana, proceed in the same fashion of endless back and forth. Since I studied the "Final Order" of Krishnakant which provides the basic teachings what all "Ritviks" consider as the truth about what actually was spoken in the last days of Srila Prabhupada when instructing his senior disciples I must say that all those many about 5000 cheated ex-disciples in European countries dont accept it the slightest, are so traumatized that they lost faith in KC as institution altogether. Prabhupada said that Vaishnavas will be on this planet for the next 10,000 years only and after that it will be impossible to practice KC on earth. So there's no what you say, "for millions of years". Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja ordered, that this disciple who successfully would preach and become an outstanding Vaishnava should be the next acarya but he didnt appoint anyone. Rupa Goswami and Lord Caitanya are not the current link, and when we consider that Srila Prabhupada is the current link then one has to consider what he exactly instructed.

Because I watched already too many so called "ritvik debates" especially Yaduraja das vs Ramakant at the deleted IRM forum I must say it is clearly the point where two disunited followers of the same religion should disassociate from each other for ever. ISKCON should go on telling new devotees: "A bonafide guru is one who doesnt fall down and if your chosen one doesnt fall down you have to find out in due course of time but meanwhile you should consider your guru as good as God and surrender your whole live".

And the ritviks should simply become expert preachers, perfect siksa-gurus and tell new devotees that their diksa-guru is Srila Prabhupada. However, since the majority of ritviks believe that present ISKCON is using Prabhupada's name to attract innocent people and at the same time Prabhupada's books say in every chapter that ISKCON is a purely transcendental movement without neophyte so called "gurus" who can fall down like in series, they dont start their own movement. But rather persist in the viewpoint of gaining back Prabhupada's movement with him in the center and that they now have to live like being forced into exile. Just like the Dalai Lama lives in exile since 45 years and for him there is no way to accept what happened in Tibet.

Martin Luther the same, he actually didnt want to start a new church, he wanted to correct the Catholic church and only some impatient followers started the Protestant church and they became entangled with too many managerial activities of their own mission without reforming the Catholics. But the two camps of ritviks and ISKCON are different since there're Prabhupada's books and in every chapter he writes about his ISKCON being a purely transcendental movement. Therefore the ritviks come to the conclusion that ISKCON cannot be left to those who even have written in their law-book as resolution: "[Action Order] RESOLVED, WHEREAS diksa-gurus within ISKCON dont require any specific spiritual qualification and the Prabhupadanugas/ritviks are banned together with their families from all ISKCON temples forever." Prabhupadanugas kicked out of Prabhupada's movement so to speak.

Hey y'all,

 

a few days ago my friend, Patty, was so fed up with life that she was ready to kil herself and able to cause more havoc......she wanted to throw herself for a train and even my telephone call to her didn't work, I told her for example that the soul is always desiring to get out of this material world and this was the wrong way to do it and so on....she refuted all my points, everything......she even didn't believe in God anymore, very strange for someone who clearly believes in reincarnation.....

 

Anyway...she didn't do it, luckily, but it leaves me with a question.....

 

What will happen with people who kill themselves, where do they go, what is the process of them to be reborn, how long does that take and so on.....I heard about Lord Shiva riding Nanda around the planet to pick up all these peole who kill themselves, becoming a ghost.....

What do the scriptures say ????

 

Thankx in advance.....

I think that this is a realy important subject which is surely very much underestimated by many. Material nature is by far more intelligent and examines in great detail such decisions by ourselves. Why exactly are we so unsatisfied and frustrated? This human form is given to us as a loan by material nature, how we can consider to destroy something what doesnt belong to us? What we see in large scale is that presently many people are not satisfied with the facilities this human body offers and it should be clear that material nature wont give them a human body again. This human form of live is not meant for sense gratification but this is what human society is being taught by rascal leaders. Using this human form of live for sense gratification immediately puts us into the position of finding out that animals are by far more happy and have much better facilities for sense pleasures.

And when people are being asked they dont mind to become an animal. Why? Dvi-pada-pasu, many so called humans are already on the animal platform, therefore they dont mind of throwing away this valuable human form of live.

Finally things seem to gradually developing in Moscow. Bhakta Charlie has the news:

Latest News of ISKCON-Moscow Temple Project

BY: BHAKTA CHARLIE

Apr 16, ALACHUA, FLORIDA (SUN) — The latest news update on the ISKCON-Moscow temple project, from HH Bhakti Vijnana Goswami.

The main news is that finally on April 3d the Mayor of Moscow signed the decree alloting 5 acres of land for the Krishna's temple in Moscow. Although the decision has been taken long ago, and we knew about it, still all the formalities were completed only on Tuesday.

For a few hours it was the News Number 1 in Russia. Practically all the newspapers, news agencies, radio stations and TV channels announced it. Mostly the reports were favourable. The news is even more significant that the general tendencies in Russia are not in principle very favourable for this kind of move. There is persisting talks about blacklisting of non-traditional for Russia religious organization. So this decision becomes even more important for our future giving us giving us an important weight and aura of a recognized religion.

Again, many devotees around the world were instrumental in achieving this success. All Russian devotees are eternally indebted to them, and I am sure that Srila Prabhupada is very pleased by the spirit of cooperation which helped us finally, after so many troubles and tribulations come to this stage.

Besides that, the new Temple complex design has been created by our architect, Arindama das suitable for the configuration of the allotted land. Unfortunately the first design will not fit the land due to some limitations. The conceptual design has been already approved by the Planning Committee which is a big achievement in itself. Usually it takes months before the approval is received.

If you would like to receive the drawings please write to me.

Now we are about to sign the contract with a firm which will work on getting all other necessary signatures. Around 20 different City Committees, like Ecological Committee, Energy Committee, etc., have to agree with the proposed plan before we can do the next step. The work is supposed to take 2 to 3 months. After that the building permit will be issued and we will be on the safe side.

IMPORTANT: This huge work will cost us little more than 100,000 USD. If you or somebody you know would be willing to sponsor a part of this important work this will help significantly to push forward the project. Please contact me for the details.

There are several other important challenges we are facing right now. Within a couple of months we will have to find a new place in the city and move our operation and Deity worship there, since we will have to vacate the old land by July. We cannot move to the new land because of so many reasons.

At the same time, as you may know, we recently lost our countryside property where around 200 grishastas were living. This place also have to be vacated very soon. So the amount of problems is quite overwhelming, even though there are some positive indications.

I will report about our progress in this areas in my next posting.

Please pray to the Lord so that He would enable us to overcome all these problems and spread His glories in this most important, but difficult city of the world.

Looks like devotees preach everywhere (read below "ravenofheaven"), just found this article at http://forum.bible.org/viewtopic.php?p=72935#72935 where one devotee ("ravenofheaven") says,

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly says according to Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill," they are giving all kinds of excuses. Even the heads of religions indulge in killing animals while trying to pass as saintly persons. This mockery and hypocrisy in human society has brought about unlimited calamities..."

 

 

posted by ravenofheaven Today, at 9:28 am

Jesus & vegetarianism

 

So when we talk about changing one's life, giving one's time, life, energy,

mind, resources to God and worship him with all one's heart mind soul, etc.,

well we all agree to that.

To be non violent, not to kill others (humans and animals alike, not even

for food (it is quite clear that the Early Christians were vegetarians, see

below), we all agree on that. We are citizens of the spiritual world and we

should not unnecessarily use our valuable time in mundane pursuits. Unless

we give up material life and turn with great determination towards spiritual

life our life will be a loss and end up in disappointment.

On the other side when we start taking about the resurrection of the flesh

and that Jesus died for our sins, well these are theological concepts that

were superimposed on the teachings of Jesus from Paul on and really miss the point of his actual teachings to mankind.

Quote from the book "Food for peace":

Major stumbling blocks for many Christians are the belief that Christ ate

meat and the many references to meat in the New Testament. But close study of the original Greek manuscripts shows that the vast majority of the words translated as "meat" are trophe, brome, and other words that simply mean "food" or "eating" in the broadest sense. For example, in the Gospel (Luke 8:55) we read that Jesus raised a woman from the dead and "commanded to give her meat." The original Greek word translated as "meat" is phago, which means only "to eat". So, what Christ actually said was, "Let her eat."

The original Greek word for meat is kreas ("flesh"), and it is never used in

connection with Christ. In Luke 24:41-43 the disciples offered him fish and

a honeycomb and he took it (singular, we can guess which one). Nowhere in the New Testament is there any direct reference to Jesus eating meat.

This is in line with Isaiah's famous prophecy: "Behold, a virgin shall

conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall eat

butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good." (Isaiah

7:14-15) (this itself says that meat eating destroys all good discretion in

man. It is quite typical, that the second part of the sentence is omitted in

Matthew 1:23).

Jesus rebuked strongly the pharisees with the words: "...and if you had

known what it means: "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, ...you would not

condemn the innocent," (Matthew 12:6) which clearly disapproves of the

killing of animals, as this is a verse taken from Hosea 6:6: "I desire mercy

instead of sacrifice, the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings..."

(note: again the the 2nd part of the sentence is omitted in Matthew 12:6).

He strongly opposed the custom of temple animal sacrifices, violently

driving those who were selling oxen, sheep and pigeons and the

money-changers out of the temple (John 2:13-15).

His words: "...you shall not make my father's house a house of trade (which in earlier translations always was translated as "murders' den").

We all know that according to Matthew 3:4 John the Baptist was refusing to eat meat. ("...and his food was wild locust (bean) and wild honey." (orig. Greek: enkris, oil cake and akris: locust/honey)

But we never hear of the sheer overwhelming evidence which points to Jesus being a vegetarian: No less than seven of Jesus' twelve disciples refused meat food (the rest we do not know). This naturally reflects the teachings of Jesus, as: "...a servant is not greater than his master..." (John 14:16).

The seven are:

1. Peter, "...whose food was bread, olives and herbs..." (Clem. Hom. XII,6)

2. James: Church Father Eusebius, quoting the Churchfather Hegesippus (about 160 AD) is stating:

"...But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his memoirs. He writes as follow:

'...James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the

Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all

from the time of our savior to the present day; for there were many that

bore the name James.

'He was holy from his mother's womb; he drank no wine, nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head, he did not anoint himself with oil and he did not use the bath. He alone was permitted to enter the

holy place; for he wore no woolen but linen garments. And he was in the

habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his

knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel in consequence of constantly bending them on his worship of God...'" (Eusebius, Church History II, Ch. XXIII,5-7, Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Oxford, N.Y., 1890, Vol I, p.125)

It is interesting that Hegesippus is saying that James, the brother of

Jesus, was holy from his mother's womb on which would apply that Mary was not eating meat either and that she never fed him meat as a child. That being the case one would think it to be clear that the whole family of Jesus and naturally he himself was vegetarian. In that sense the statement of Churchfather Eusebius "he was holy from his mother's womb" is most

indicative pointing towards the vegetarianism of Jesus.

3. Thomas: The apocryphal Acts of Thomas (Ch. 20), which actually were

widely in use among early Christian sects, depict this disciple of Jesus as

ascetic: "He continually fasts and prays, and abstaining from eating of

flesh and drinking wine, he eats only bread, with salt and drink and water,

and wears the same garment in fine weather and winter, and accepts nothing from anyone, and gives whatever he has to others."

4. Matthew: "It is far better to be happy than to have a demon dwelling with us. And happiness is found in the practice of virtue. Accordingly, the

apostle Matthew partook of seeds and nuts, fruits and vegetables without of flesh. And John, who carried temperance to the extreme, ate locusts and wild honey..."

(Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, II.I,16: On Eating)

(Note here the strong hint of Clement towards the vegetarianism of John the Baptist.)

5. Matthias (who filled the place of Judas - Acts 1:21-26). His food as told

by Church Father Clement of Alexandria was the same as Matthews.

(Clement/Stromata III,4,26)

6. Andrew and 7. Jude: Andrew (Peter's brother in both flesh and faith) and Jude of Bethsaida, originally two of John the Baptists' followers, must have

followed the Baptist's austere diet. (See above under Matthew)

Paul also says: "...It is good neither to drink wine or eat flesh..." (Roman

14:20-21) though his commitment altogether seems altogether somewhat less categorical.

Beyond that there are strong arguments of a similar nature by many of the

Fathers of the early Church:

"...How unworthy do you press the example of Christ as having come eating and drinking into the service of your lusts: I think that He who pronounced

not the full, but the hungry and thirsty 'Blessed,' who professed His work

to be the completion of His Father's Will, I think that he was wont to

abstain, instructing them to labor for that 'Meat' which lasts to eternal

life, and enjoying in their common prayers petition, not for flesh food but

for bread only..." - Quintus Septimius Tertullianus (AD 155).

This knowledge of Tertullianus was supported by fragments of the writings by the Apostolic Father Papias (AD 60 - 125).

"...The unnatural eating of flesh is as polluting as the heathens worship of

devils with its sacrifices and impure feasts, through participation in which

a man becomes a fellow eater with devils..." (2nd century scripture Clemente Homilies - Hom. XII)

Clemens Prudentius, the first Christian hymn writer exhorts in one of his

hymns his fellow Christians "...not to pollute their hands and hearts by the

slaughter of innocent cows and sheep..."

Accordingly the Apostle Matthew, "partook of seeds, and nuts, and

vegetables, without the use of flesh... is there not within a temperate

simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables, vegetables, roots, olives,

herbs, milk, cheese, fruits?" - Churchfather Clement of Alexandria (Titus

Flavius Clemens, AD 150 - 220)

"...We, the Christian leaders, practice abstinence from the flesh of animals

to subdue our bodies. The unnatural eating of flesh is of demonic origin."

And about the early Christians: "...No streams of blood are among them. No

dainty cookery, no heaviness of head. Nor are horrible smells of flesh meats

among them or disagreeable fumes from the kitchen.." - St. Chrysostomos (AD 347-404)

A most important purport to a controversy, much cherished and much cited by meat-eating Christians we find in the writings of the Churchfather Jerome (AD 340 - 420), who gave us the Vulgate, the authorized Latin version of the Bible still in use today.

The controversy is based on the fact that in Genesis 1:29 meat-eating is

clearly forbidden, "...I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of

the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be

yours for food..."

However after the flood it appears that meat-eating is all of a sudden

permitted: "...The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of

the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your

hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave

you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it..." (Genesis 9:2-4)

Writing in confutation of Jovinian, a monk of Milan, who abandoned

asceticism, St. Jerome (died A.D. 440) holds up vegetarianism as the

Christian ideal and the restoration of the primeval rule of life.

St. Jerome says:

"...He (Jovinian) raises the objection that when God gave His second

blessing, permission was granted to eat flesh, which had not in the first

benediction been allowed. He should know that just as divorce according to the Saviour's word was not permitted from the beginning, but on account of the hardness of our heart was a concession of Moses to the human race,

(Matthew 9:8: "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.") ...so too the eating of flesh was unknown until the deluge. But after the deluge, like the quails given in the desert to the murmuring people, the poison of flesh-meat was offered to our teeth. The Apostle writing to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10) teaches that God had purposed in the fullness of time to sum up and renew in Christ Jesus all things which are in heaven and in earth. Whence also the Saviour himself in the Revelation of John says (Rev. 1:8; 22:13), "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending."

At the beginning of the human race we neither ate flesh, nor gave bills of

divorce, nor suffered circumcision for a sign. Thus we reached the deluge.

But after the deluge, together with the giving of the law which no one could fulfill, flesh was given for food, and divorce was allowed to hard-hearted men, and the knife of circumcision was applied, as though the hand of God had fashioned us with something superfluous. But once Christ has come in the end of time, and Omega passed into Alpha and turned the end into the beginning, we are no longer allowed divorce (see Matthew 19:3-9), nor are we circumcised, nor so we eat flesh, for the Apostle says (Rom. 14:21), "It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine." For wine as well as flesh was consecrated after the deluge." (Against Jovinianus, Book I,1

"The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit... One hardly can have

virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..." - St. Basil (AD 320 - 79)

Besides that contemporary heathen observers describe the early Christians as abstaining from meat:

Pliny, Governor of Bithynia (where Peter preached) referred to the early

Christians in a letter to Trajan, the Roman Emperor, as a ..."contagious

superstition abstaining from flesh food..."

Seneca (5 BC - 65 AD), stoic philosopher and tutor of Nero, describes the

Christians as "...a foreign cultus or superstition (under imperial

suspicion) who abstain from flesh food..."

And Josephus Flavius says about the early Christians: "...They assemble

before sunrising and speak not a word of profane matters but put up certain prayers... and sit down together each one to a single plate of one sort of

innocent food..."

The scholar E.M. Szekely claims to have recovered and translated from an old Aramaic scripture, "...Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother... And the

flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you

truly, he who kills, kills himself, and who so eats the flesh of slain

beasts, eats of the body of death... Kill neither men, nor beasts, nor the

food which goes into your mouth... For life comes from life, and from death

comes always death. For everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies

also. And your bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits become what your thoughts are..." - E.M. Szekely, Gospel of Peace

And Albert Schweitzer says: "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind but

with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose of St.

Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is reverence for all

life. This is the ethic of love widened universally. It is the ethic of

Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought... Only a universal ethic

which embraces every living creature can put us in touch with the universe

and the will which is there manifest..." Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801 - 90) says: "...Cruelty to animals is as if man did not love God... They have done us no harm, they have no power of resistance... there is something dreadful, so satanic in tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend themselves, who are utterly in our power..."

Tolstoy and Dukhobor (Orthodox Russian Christian) were of the opinion that

meat-eating is against the tenets of Christianity.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acarya of

ISKCON (Hare Krishna Movement) concludes: "...There are many rascals who violate their own religious principles. While it clearly says according to

Judeo-Christian scriptures, "Thou shalt not kill," they are giving all kinds

of excuses. Even the heads of religions indulge in killing animals while

trying to pass as saintly persons. This mockery and hypocrisy in human

society has brought about unlimited calamities..."

The ritviks have a huge misconception that the guru parampara ends with Srila Prabhupada. That is the problem.

Thanks for presenting your personal thoughts. Since you clearly base your seemingly doubtless conviction on what are the unglamorous accomplishments concerning guru-tattva of present ISKCON, Western Vaishnavas, you surely fully agree that it is clear that there wont be many who are taken in by such vanity.

Anybody done a law course? To be a soliciter etc?

 

I'm thinking about it (HAHAHHAHAH). ....drops down dead.

Just found that link where devotees have workshops and seminars.

http://www.kulimela.com/workshops_and_seminars.php