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Puru Das Adhikari

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  1. Here are some excerpts, Ananga, from The Teachings of Lord Caitanya: HDGACBSP " In order to learn how Krsna's pleasure can be obtained, we must read the Tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Krsna's pleasure potency is displayed in His pastimes with Radharani and the damsels of Vraja. Unfortunately, unintelligent people turn at once to the sports of Krsna in the Dasama-skandha, the Tenth Canto. Krsna's embracing Radharani or His dancing with the cowherd girls in the rasa dance are generally not understood by ordinary men because they consider these pastimes in the light of mundane lust. They incorrectly think that Krsna is like themselves and that He embraces the gopis just as an ordinary man embraces a young girl. Some people thus become interested in Krsna because they think that His religion allows indulgence in sex. This is not Krsna-bhakti, love of Krsna, but prakrta-sahajiya-- materialistic lust. In order to avoid such errors, we should understand what Radha-Krsna actually is. Radha and Krsna display their pastimes through Krsna's internal energy. The pleasure potency of Krsna's internal energy is a most difficult subject matter, and unless one understands what Krsna is, he cannot understand it. Krsna does not take any pleasure in this material world, but He has a pleasure potency. Because we are part and parcel of Krsna, the pleasure potency is within us also, but we are trying to exhibit that pleasure potency in matter. Krsna, however, does not make such a vain attempt. The object of Krsna's pleasure potency is Radharani, and He exhibits His potency or His energy as Radharani and then engages in loving affairs with Her. In other words, Krsna does not take pleasure in this external energy but exhibits His internal energy, His pleasure potency, as Radharani. Thus Krsna manifests Himself as Radharani in order to exhibit His internal pleasure potency. Of the many extensions, expansions and incarnations of the Lord, this pleasure potency is the foremost and chief." ". . .In this material world sex is required to produce children, but in the spiritual world one can produce as many children as he likes without having to take help from his wife. Because we have no experience with spiritual energy, we think that Brahma's birth from the navel of Visnu is simply a fictional story. We are not aware that spiritual energy is so powerful that it can do anything and everything. Material energy is dependent on certain laws, but spiritual energy is fully independent . . . Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura specifically deals with original and pure sex psychology (adi-rasa) devoid of all mundane inebriety. The entire material world turns due to the basic principle of sex life. In modern human civilization, sex is the central point of all activities; indeed, wherever we turn our face we see sex life prominent. Consequently sex life is not unreal; its true reality is experienced in the spiritual world. Material sex is but a perverted reflection of the original; the original is found in the Absolute Truth. This validates the fact that the Absolute Truth is personal, for the Absolute Truth cannot be impersonal and have a sense of pure sex life. The impersonal monist philosophy gives an indirect impetus to abominable mundane sex because it overly stresses the impersonality of the ultimate truth. The result is that men who lack knowledge have accepted the perverted material sex life as all in all because they have no information of the actual spiritual form of sex. There is a distinction between sex in the diseased condition of material life and sex in the spiritual existence. Srimad-Bhagavatam gradually elevates the unbiased reader to the highest perfectional stage of transcendence above the three modes of material activities, fruitive actions, speculative philosophy and above worship of functional deities indicated in the Vedas. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the embodiment of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna and is therefore situated in a position superior to other Vedic literatures. . . .Sometimes people indulge in hearing portions of Srimad-Bhagavatam which they are not prepared to hear. Professional readers of the Bhagavatam indulge in reading the confidential portions dealing with the pastimes of the Supreme Lord. These portions appear to read like sex literature. However, Srimad-Bhagavatam is meant to be heard from the beginning, and those who are fit to assimilate the messages of Bhagavatam are mentioned in the very beginning (Bhag. 1.1.2): A bona fide audience fit to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam is generated after many pious deeds. An intellectual person can believe in the assurances of the great sage Vyasadeva and patiently hear the messages of Srimad-Bhagavatam in order to realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly. One need not struggle through the different Vedic stages of realization, for one can be lifted to the position of paramahamsa simply by agreeing to hear the message of Srimad-Bhagavatam with patience. The sages of Naimisaranya told Suta Gosvami that they were intensely desirous of understanding Srimad-Bhagavatam. They were hearing from Suta Gosvami about Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they were never satiated by these discussions. People who are really attached to Krsna never want to stop hearing about Him. . . . The word klim added to the gayatri mantra is explained in Brahma-samhita as the transcendental seed of love of Godhead, or the seed of the kama-gayatri. The object is Krsna, who is the ever green Cupid, and by utterance of klim mantra Krsna is worshiped. It is also stated in the Gopala-tapani Upanisad that when Krsna is spoken of as Cupid, one should not think of Him as the Cupid of this material world. As already explained, Vrndavana is the spiritual abode of Krsna, and the word Cupid is also spiritual and transcendental. One should not take the material Cupid and Krsna to be on the same level. The material Cupid represents the attraction of the external flesh and body, but the spiritual Cupid is the attraction by which the Supersoul attracts the individual soul. Actually lust and sex are there in spiritual life, but when the spirit soul is embodied in material elements, that spiritual urge is expressed through the material body and is therefore pervertedly reflected. When one actually becomes conversant in the science of Krsna consciousness, he can understand that his material desire for sex is abominable, whereas spiritual sex is desirable. Spiritual sex is of two kinds: one in accordance with the constitutional position of the self and the other in accordance with the object. When one understands the truth about this life but is not completely cleansed of material contamination, he is not factually situated in the transcendental abode, Vrndavana, although he may understand spiritual life. When, however, one becomes free from the sex urges of the material body, he can actually attain the supreme abode of Vrndavana. When one is so situated, he can utter the kama-gayatri and kama-bija mantra. . . . In Govinda-lilamrta there is a verse which states: "Who is the breeding ground for Krsna's affection? The answer is that it is only Srimati Radhika. Who is Krsna's most lovable object? The answer is that it is only Srimati Radhika and no one else." Sheen in the hair, moisture in the eyes and firmness in the breasts are all qualities present in Srimati Radhika. Only Srimati Radhika is able to fulfill all the desires of Krsna. No one else can do so. Satyabhama is another competitor of Srimati Radharani, but she always desires to come to the standard of Srimati Radharani. Radharani is so expert in all affairs that all the damsels of Vraja come to learn arts from Her. She is so extraordinarily beautiful that even the goddess of fortune and Parvati, the wife of Lord Siva, desire elevation to Her standard of beauty. Arundhati, who is known as the most chaste lady in the universe, desires to learn the standard of chastity from Srimati Radharani. Since even Lord Krsna cannot estimate Radharani's highly transcendental qualities, it is not possible for an ordinary man to estimate them. After hearing Ramananda Raya speak of the qualities of Radha Krsna, Lord Caitanya desired to hear from him about the reciprocation of love between Them. Ramananda Raya described Krsna as dhira-lalita, a word which describes a person who is very cunning and youthful, who is always expert in joking, who is without anxiety and who is always subservient to his girl friend. Krsna is always engaged in love affairs with Radharani, and He takes to the bushes of Vrndavana to enjoy His lusty activities with Her. Thus He successfully carries out His lusty instincts. In Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu it is stated:. "By His impudent and daring talks about sex indulgence, Krsna obliged Srimati Radharani to close Her eyes, and taking advantage of this, Krsna painted many pictures on Her breasts. These pictures served as subject matter for Radharani's friends to joke about. Thus Krsna was always engaged in lusty activities, and thus He made His youthful life successful." Upon hearing of these transcendental activities, Lord Caitanya said, "My dear Ramananda, what you have explained regarding the transcendental pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna is perfectly correct, yet there is something more I would like to hear from you." . . . Ramananda Raya then began to relate the confidential and transcendental activities of Radha and Krsna. These activities cannot be understood in the emotional relationship with the Supreme Lord as master and servant, friend and friend or parent and son. This confidential subject matter can be understood only in the association of the damsels of Vraja, for the confidential activities have arisen from the feelings and emotions of those damsels. Without the association of the damsels of Vraja, one cannot nourish or cherish such transcendental understanding. In other words, these confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna have expanded through the mercy of the damsels. Without their mercy, they cannot be understood. One has to follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja in order to understand. When one is actually situated in that understanding, he becomes eligible to enter into the confidential pastimes of Radha and Krsna. There is no alternative to understand Their confidential pastimes. This is confirmed in Govinda-lilamrta (10.17): "Although manifest, happy, expanded and unlimited, the emotional exchanges between Radha and Krsna can only be understood by the damsels of Vraja or by their followers."Just as no one can understand the expansion of the spiritual energy of the Supreme Lord without His causeless mercy, no one can understand the transcendental sex life between Radha and Krsna without following in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja. The personal associates of Radharani are called sakhis, and Her near assistants are called manjaris. It is very difficult to express their dealings with Krsna because they have no desire to mix with Krsna or to enjoy Him personally. Rather, they are always ready to help Radharani associate with Krsna. Their affection for Krsna and Radharani is so pure that they are simply satisfied when Radha and Krsna are together. Indeed, their transcendental pleasure is in seeing Radha and Krsna united. The actual form of Radharani is just like a creeper embracing the tree of Krsna, and the damsels of Vraja, the associates of Radharani, are just like the leaves and flowers of that creeper. When a creeper embraces a tree, the leaves and flowers as well as the creeper automatically embrace it. Govinda-lilamrta (10.16) confirms that Radharani is the expansion of the pleasure potency of Krsna and is compared with a creeper, and Her associates, the damsels of Vraja, are compared to the flowers and leaves of that creeper. When Radharani and Krsna enjoy Themselves, the damsels of Vraja relish the pleasure more than Radharani Herself. . . . "And out of all songs, what song do you think is the best of all?" Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked. And Ramananda replied that any song which describes the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is the best song. In conditional life, the soul is captivated by sex. All fictions--dramas and novels--and material songs describe love between men and women. Since people are so attracted to this kind of literature, Krsna appeared in this material world and displayed His transcendental loving affairs with the gopis. There is an immense literature dealing with the transactions between the gopis and Krsna, and anyone who takes shelter of this literature or of the stories about Radha and Krsna can enjoy actual happiness. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.36) it is said that the Lord displayed His pastimes in Vrndavana in order to reveal His actual life. Any intelligent person who tries to understand the pastimes of Radha and Krsna is most fortunate. The songs that tell of those pastimes are the greatest songs in the world. TLC BUT ALWAYS UNDER GUIDANCE, AND NOT ANY OTHER WAY!
  2. Ananga you have posted an impressive list of references,but out of context and clearly not with a deep perception of why a conditioned soul should approach the topic of raganuga bhakti under sufficient guidance. You may read about the siddha deha but actual realization of our eternal form, as you wrote, must come from the mercy of sad guru. Only when our heart is softenend by vaidhi bhakti practices can suddha-sattva-visesatma manifest there.The bhava state of rati is not imitated or just heard of , but must be actually realized, or we just observe rati abhasa. Sri Rupa very clearly says in the Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu that there are stages leading to prema. verses 15 & 16 from the Eastern Division: Fourth Wave PREMA BHAKTI of Srila Rupa Goswami's Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah athasaktis tato bhavass tatah premabhyudancati You can't skip over those stages and present instructions for uttama bhaktas as viable devotional practices for bhadda jivas like me who are still trying to approach kanistha adhikari.Of course if you are that advanced then more power to you. Pranams to your lotus feet. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu: "Raganuga bhakti is performed in two ways: (1)with the sadhaka-rupa-with the external body through execution of the angas of bhakti, and (2)with the siddha-rupa--with the internally conceived body that is suitable for carrying out the perfected service (prema-seva) for which one aspires. . .If someone raises the objection that the word 'vraja-loka' refers only to Sri Radha, Lalita, and others, then with the sadhaka-deha (the external body) one should perform bodily services following in their wake. If this indeed were the case, then the followers of those eternal associates would not find it necessary to carry out the angas of bhakti such as taking shelter of a spiritual mater (sri guru padasraya), observance of Ekadasi, worship of salagrama, worship of tulasi and so one, since it is not mentioned anywhere that Sri Radha and Lalita ever performed such acticities. HOWEVER THIS ERONIOUS CONCLUSION (APASIDDHANTA HELD BY SKEPTICS WHO HAVE TAKEN SHELTER OF MODERN ADVERSE OPINIONS IS ALSO RESFFUTED BY THE WORD VRAJA-LOKA. In his commentary to this sloka of Sri Bhati-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.295) Srila Jiva Gosvamipada has explained the same thing;namely, that the word vraja loke refers to the dearmost associates of Sri Krsna and their followers wuch as Rupa Gosvami and others. Therefore one should perform internal service (manasi seva) through the medium of the siddha-deha by folling in accordance with Sri Rupa Manjar and other Vrajavasis. With the sadhaka-deha, one should perform bodily service by following Sri Rupa Gosvami and others." In his commentary SRila B.V. Narayana Maharaj explains: Thererfore, raganuga-sadhakas, should taste krsna-lila though the medium of gaura lila. Consequently it is essential for sadhakas to remember gaura-lila and to folow the eternal associates of Lord Caitanya. Since it is necessary to follow the guara parikaras, it is certainly imperative that one observe the angas of bhakti which were praacticed by the foremost associates, such as Srila Rupa Gosvami and other. There is no doubt about this.. . .This subject is extremely deep. Wihtout the mercy of Sri Gurudeva or suddha-rasika-bhaktas, the sadhaka cannot conceive of his siddha deha(perfected spiritual body) by himself. Therefore, the contemplation of one's nitya-siddha deha arised of its own accord only by the merciful indication of Sri Gurudeva. . . .But one should always bear in mind that not everyone has the eligibility to perform Yugala-seva by meditating in this way on Their supramundane (aprakrta) daily pastimes. This practice must be concealed very dilligently. One should not disclose these pastimes to ineligible persons. Until genuine greed (lobha) to enter into the raga-marga arises in the heart of the jiva bound by matter, this subject should be kept hidden from him. ONE REMAINS INELIGIBLE TO HEAR THE CONDIENTIAL PASTIMES OF SRI UGALA WHICH ARE SATURATED WITH RASA AS LONG AS THE CONCEPTION OF THE TRANSCENDENTAL NATURE OF THE LORD'S NAME, FORM, QUALITIES AND PASTIMES HAS NOT IMPLANTED INTSELF IN THE HEART. IN OTHER WORDS, ONE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THE NAME, FORM, QUALITITES AND PASTIMES OF SRI KRSNA ARE FULLY CONSITITUTED OR PURE SPITITUAL TRANSCENDENCE (SUDDHA-CINMAYA-SVARUPA). WHEN INELIGIBLE PERONS HEAR OR STUDY THESE PASTIMES THE RECALL ONLY THE ILLUSORY AND MUNDANE ASSOCIATION OF MEN AND WOMEN AND ARE THUS COMPELLED TO FALL DOWN. THUS THEY SINK DOWN INTO THE MUCK OF DEBAUCHERY.Therefore judicious students, proceeding cautiously may enter into this lila, after having obtained the appropriate impressions (samskaras) for aparakrta-srngara-rasa, following the exmaple of Devarsi Narada. THE FUNDAMENTAL CONCLUSION IS THAT ONLY UPON OBTAINING THE AFOREMENTIONED ELIGIBILITY CAN THE SADHAKA UNDERTAKE THE DISCPLINE (SADHANA) OF RAGANUGA BHAKTI. BY FOLOWING THIS METHOD OF SADHANA WHILE STILL PLAGUED WITH ANARTHAS AND WITHOUT THE APPERANCE OF GENUINE GREED, THE OPPOSITE EFFECT WILL BE PRODUCED. . . " Bhakti-rasamrt-sindhu-bindu ************************* Interspersed with your quotes and strange logic about the Gaudiya Matha we can readily see that you think discussion about Sri Krsna's private parts is suitable subject matter for public discussions. He is also the seed giving father and He impregnates the womb of material energy with all the jiva souls. Your remarks simply prove that "WHEN INELIGIBLE PERONS HEAR OR STUDY THESE PASTIMES THEY RECALL ONLY THE ILLUSORY AND MUNDANE ASSOCIATION OF MEN AND WOMEN" By discussing such topics without anugatya and you will simply misunderstand Krsna's lila, which has nothing to do with mundane sexuality of any kind. That is why SBSST and our gaudiya line takes objection to premature discussions of such intimate subject matter by the unqualified. Also the gita sloka (8.6) you mention doesn't necessarily refer to raganuga sadhana. The gita explains abc, of transmigration of the soul according to the impressions we accumulate in this life taking us from one material body to the next. The Aprakrta lila has nothing to do with our sense perceptions but is the function of hladini, sandhini and samvit. Take the verse that way if you see fit, but you should walk before you run. Until you are free from mundane ahankara how can you have any real appreciation or realization of your siddha? Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaj explained in a discusion of the eternal nature of our svarupa that: ". . .when he becomes inclined toward Paramesvara, the curtain of the covering potency,maya, is withdrawn and thus the jivas's pure svarupa and qualities are uncovered. Immediately thereafter he has the direct perception of his own svarupa. From this siddhanta it is evident that the jiva is an infinitessimal atomic particle of soncsiusness. He has an inherent spiritual identity, cinmaya svarupa. His pure ahankara, pure consciousness, pure form and method of service and so on are also definitey in this svarupa.As the sadhaka jiva goes on hearing and chanting, pure bhakti appers in his heart, and the function of the essence of hladinii and samvit, khown as bhakti devi, removes all other desires and aspirations except for the service of bhagavan. Having dispelled avidya (ignorance), the jivas' gross and subtle coverings are both destroyed by the vidyavrtti function of the knowledge potency. At once the jiva's constitutional pure, transcendental body, is caused to manifest. Moreover, for those who are eligible to taste madhura-rasa, their purely spiritual gopi body is also caused to manifest." Pure bhakti manifests in the softenend heart first, then siddha realization, otherwise not Ananga. Dispell avidya first or you will simply think you are a gopi artificially and become a worm in stool instead. Srila Sridhar Maharaj's essay is certainly not injudicious or contradictory, only truthful. Sounds to me that you like to take shastra and mix it up like fruit salad, but don't present a cohesive or comprehensive understanding of how to approach the topic of raganuga bhakti. We are not gopis quite yet. Our vastu siddhi won't manifest in this body anyway. And we won't take birth where Krsna's lila is manifesting unless we are actually qualified to go there. Otherwise there is another material womb waiting for us somewhere. (Vastu-siddhi is attained after giving up this body and taking birth in Krsna's bhaumalila, from the womb of a gopi. After attaining the association of Krsna's eternal associates and being purified of all final traces of material identification, when prema is intensified, one attains vasu-siddhi). BRSB p. 125 [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-21-2001).] [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-21-2001).]
  3. Jagat, Most of our discussion certainly appears lost. I have itin two html files . I sent it to you. Perhaps jndas can re post it if you send it to him as well. Circles indeed.I understand your sociological analysis of the movement. I would explain things a little differently but I'm just not that interested anymore in matha structure or what to do about temple presidents and their agendas. Srila Prabhupada wrote about that schism we discussed, "therefore I am of no faction." I haven't joined a matha recently,though I am affiliated with some and embrace the association of the like minded sadhakas I find there. But mainly I am after sadhu-sanga and improving my own bhajan. Visits to mathas are fine for me for now, until I can reach a higher level of spiritual maturity and take up residence again. We've all had to do some growing up since Srila Prabhupada's samadhi in l977, and we can arrange our own housing for now. Good fences can make good neighbors. I see no need to harbor personal animosity because we have different philosophical viewpoints but why should we necessarily want to live with each other baba? I want to learn to chant suddha nama,improve my archan seva and study scrutinizingly shastra in the mood of gosvamis for the benefit of all human beings, starting with myself. You want to do research,translate and work in the academic field on levels of scholarship I can't think to approach. When it's time to offer prasadm we'll have a row over whose picture is on the altar or if we even need any altar. There is some sense to different missions for different minded participants, no doubt. Maybe seperate rooms in the same larger house makes more sense than being roomates. Or perhaps different residence in the same province, with an occasional hello on the road. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-20-2001).]
  4. A disciple tries to fix the order of Sri guru as his intelligence. Otherwise no need for guru,just do what you will, when you will, how you will and try to approach any topic of transcendence through conditioned senses, instead of purified devotional intelligence. Throw away your copy of Bg. It isn't sruti. We are all so intelligent that we find ourselves facing certain death. Where has our "intelligence" gotten us to date? Consoider the points made in the dialogue between Sarvabhouma Bhattacayra and Gopinatha acarya in Cc.Madhya lila Chapter 6. Here is just a bit of it: TEXT 80 The disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya retaliated, "By what evidence do you conclude that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Lord?" Gopinatha Acarya replied, "The statements of authorized acaryas who understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are proof." PURPORT Since the appearance of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, there have been many pseudo incarnations in India who do not present authorized evidence. Five hundred years ago the disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, being very learned scholars, were certainly right in asking Gopinatha Acarya for evidence. If a person proposes that he himself is God or that someone else is an incarnation of God or God Himself, he must cite evidence from sastra to prove his claim. Thus the request of the Bhattacarya's disciples is quite bona fide. Unfortunately, at the present moment it has become fashionable to present someone as an incarnation of God without referring to the sastras. Before an intelligent person accepts someone as an incarnation of God, however, he must ask about the evidence. When the disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya challenged Gopinatha Acarya, he immediately replied correctly: "We must hear the statements of great personalities in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Lord Krsna is established as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by statements from authorized persons like Brahma, Narada, Vyasadeva, Asita, Arjuna and many others. Similarly, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is also established as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by evidence from the same personalities. This will be explained later. TEXT 81 The disciples of the Bhattacarya said, "We derive knowledge of the Absolute Truth by logical hypothesis." Gopinatha Acarya replied, "One cannot attain real knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by such logical hypothesis and argument." PURPORT The Mayavadi philosophers in particular make certain hypotheses about the Absolute Truth. They reason that in the material world we experience that everything is created. If we trace the history of anything, we find a creator. Therefore there must be a creator of this huge cosmic manifestation. By such reasoning they come to the conclusion that a higher power has created this cosmic manifestation. The Mayavadis do not accept this great power to be a person. Their brains cannot accommodate the fact that this huge cosmic manifestation can be created by a person. They doubt this because as soon as they think of a person, they think of a person within the material world with limited potency. Sometimes the Mayavadi philosophers will accept Lord Krsna or Lord Rama as Bhagavan, but they think of the Lord as a person having a material body. The Mayavadis do not understand that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, has a spiritual body. They think of Krsna as a great personality, a human being, within whom there is the supreme impersonal power, Brahman. Therefore they finally conclude that the impersonal Brahman is the Supreme, not the personality Krsna. This is the basis of Mayavadi philosophy. However, from the sastras we can understand that the Brahman effulgence is the bodily rays of Krsna: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti- kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam tad brahma niskalam anantam asesa-bhutam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami "I serve the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, the primeval Lord, the effulgence of whose transcendental body is known as the brahmajyoti. That brahmajyoti, which is unlimited, unfathomed and all-pervasive, is the cause of the creation of unlimited numbers of planets with varieties of climates and specific conditions of life." (Brahma-samhita 5.40) Mayavadi philosophers study the Vedic literature, but they do not understand that the Absolute Truth in the last stage of realization is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. They do accept the fact that there is a creator of this cosmic manifestation, but that is anumana (hypothesis). The Mayavadi philosopher's logic is something like seeing smoke on a hill. When there is a forest fire on a high hill, smoke is first of all visible. The smoke is created when there is fire. Just as one can conclude that there is fire from seeing smoke, from seeing this cosmic manifestation the Mayavadi philosophers conclude that there must be a creator. The disciples of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya wanted evidence to show that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was actually the creator of the cosmic manifestation. Only then would they accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the original cause of creation. Gopinatha Acarya replied that one could not understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by guesswork. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (7.25): naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah mudho 'yam nabhijanati loko mam ajam avyayam "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency [yogamaya]; and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." (Bg. 7.25) The Supreme Personality of Godhead reserves the right of not being exposed to nondevotees. He can only be understood by bona fide devotees. Lord Krsna says elsewhere in the Bhagavad-gita (18.55), bhaktya mam abhijanati: "One can understand Me only by the devotional process." In the Fourth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita (4.3) Lord Krsna says, bhakto 'si me sakha ceti rahasyam hy etad uttamam. Here Lord Krsna informs Arjuna that He is disclosing the secrets of Bhagavad-gita to him because he is His devotee. Arjuna was not a sannyasi, nor was he a Vedantist or brahmana. He was, however, a devotee of Krsna. The conclusion is that we have to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead from the devotees. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself says, guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija. (Cc. Madhya 19.151) More evidence can be cited to show that without the mercy of a devotee or the mercy of Krsna, one cannot understand what is Krsna and what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in the next verse. TEXT 82 Gopinatha Acarya continued, "One can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead only by His mercy, not by guesswork or hypothesis." PURPORT One cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by exhibiting some mundane magic. Foolish people are enchanted by magical demonstrations, and when they see a few wonderful things done by mystical power, they accept a magician as the Personality of Godhead or an incarnation. This is not the way of realization. Nor should one guess or speculate about an incarnation of God or the Personality of Godhead. One has to learn from the bona fide person or from the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, as Arjuna did, by the mercy of Krsna. Krsna Himself also gives many hints about His potencies as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One should understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead only through the evidence presented by the sastras and the mahajanas. In any case, one must have the mercy of the Lord in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by devotional service. TEXT 83 The Acarya continued, "If one receives but a tiny bit of the Lord's favor by dint of devotional service, he can understand the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. TEXT 84 " 'My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate in order to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years.' " PURPORT The above verse is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.29). The Brahma-samhita states, vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau (Brahma-samhita 5.33). Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is the ultimate goal of knowledge (vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah), one who is not a pure devotee and who is not engaged in the service of the Lord cannot understand Him. Lord Brahma therefore confirms this. Vedesu durlabham: "It is very difficult to understand the Supreme Lord simply through one's studies." Adurlabham atma-bhaktau: "However, it is very easy for the devotees to capture the Lord." The Lord is known as ajita (unconquerable). No one can conquer the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the Lord consents to be conquered by His devotees. That is His nature. As stated in the Padma Purana: atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah Being pleased by devotional activities, the Lord reveals Himself to His devotees. That is the way to understand Him. The verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam quoted by Gopinatha Acarya was originally spoken by Lord Brahma when he was defeated by Lord Krsna. Lord Brahma had stolen all the calves and cowherd boys in order to test Krsna's power. Lord Brahma admitted that his own extraordinary powers within the universe were not in the least comparable to the unlimited powers of Lord Krsna. If Lord Brahma can make a mistake in understanding Krsna, what to speak of ordinary persons, who either misunderstand Krsna or falsely present a so-called incarnation of Krsna for their own sense gratification. TEXTS 85-86 Gopinatha Acarya then addressed Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya: "You are a great scholar and a teacher of may disciples. Indeed, there is no other scholar like you on earth. Nonetheless, because you are bereft of even a pinch of the Lord's mercy, you cannot understand Him, even though He is present in your home. TEXT 87 "It is not your fault; it is the verdict of the scriptures. You cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by scholarship." PURPORT This is a very important verse. Even big scholars cannot understand Krsna, yet they dare comment on the Bhagavad-gita. Reading the Bhagavad-gita means understanding Krsna, yet we actually see many scholars making blunders in trying to understand Krsna. Gopinatha Acarya's statement is confirmed in many places in Vedic literature. In the Katha Upanisad (1.2.23) it is stated: nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam It is also stated in Katha Upanisad (1.2.9): naisa tarkena matir apaneya proktanyenaiva sujnanaya prestha yam tvam apah satya-dhrtir batasi tvadrn no bhuyan naciketah prasta The fact is that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul, cannot be attained simply by explanations, logic and erudite scholarship. One cannot understand Him simply by one's brain substance. Even by studying all Vedic literature, one cannot understand the Supreme Lord. However, if one is slightly favored by the mercy of the Lord, if the Lord is pleased, one can understand Him. But who are the candidates eligible to receive the mercy of the Lord? Only the devotees. They alone can understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord reveals Himself to the sincere devotee when He is pleased with his service: svayam eva sphuraty adah. One should not try to understand the Lord simply from the statements of the Vedas, nor should one uselessly attempt to decry these statements through reasoning and logic. TEXT 88 Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya replied, "My dear Gopinatha Acarya, please speak with great care. What is the proof that you have received the mercy of the Lord?" TEXT 89 Gopinatha Acarya replied, "Knowledge of the summum bonum, the Absolute Truth, is evidence of the mercy of the Supreme Lord." PURPORT Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya informed his brother-in-law, Gopinatha Acarya, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead may not have shown mercy to me, but what is the proof of His having shown it to you? Kindly let us know about this." in reply to this, Gopinatha Acarya said that the summum bonum, the Absolute Truth, and His different potencies are identical. Therefore one can understand the substance of the Absolute Truth by the manifestation of His different potencies. The summum bonum includes all potencies in one unit. The Absolute Truth combined with different characteristics is the original substance (vastu): parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. Thus the Vedas state that the Absolute Truth has different potencies. When one understands the characteristics of the potencies of the Absolute Truth, one is aware of the Absolute Truth. On the material platform as well, one can understand the substance by the manifestation of its symptoms. For example, when there is heat, it is to be understood that there is fire. The heat of the fire is perceived directly. The fire may not be visible, but one can search out the fire by feeling heat. Similarly, if one can perceive the characteristics of the Absolute Truth, we can know that he has understood the substance of the Absolute Truth by the mercy of the Lord. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.25) it is said, naham prakasah sarvasya The Supreme Personality of Godhead reserves the right of not being exposed to everyone. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah: "The Lord reveals Himself to a devotee when He is completely satisfied by the devotee's service." Thus one cannot understand the Supreme Lord without His mercy. The Absolute Truth cannot be understood by speculation, and this is the conclusion of the Bhagavad-gita. TEXT 90 Gopinatha Acarya continued, "You have seen the symptoms of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu during His absorption in an ecstatic mood. TEXT 91 "Despite directly perceiving the symptoms of the Supreme Lord in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, you cannot understand Him. This is commonly called illusion. PURPORT Gopinatha Acarya is pointing out that Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya had already seen uncommon symptoms of ecstasy in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. These uncommon symptoms of ecstatic love indicated the Supreme Person, but despite having seen all these symptoms, the Bhattacarya could not understand the Lord's transcendental nature. He was considering the Lord's pastimes to be mundane. This was certainly due to illusion. TEXT 92 "A person influenced by the external energy is called bahirmukha jana, a mundane person, because despite his perception, he cannot understand the real substance." Hearing Gopinatha Acarya say this, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya smiled and began to speak as follows. PURPORT When one's heart is not cleansed, one cannot awaken the transcendental nature of devotional service. As confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita (7.28): yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drdha-vratah "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination." When one is actually engaged in pure devotional service, it is understood that he has already attained freedom from all reactions to sinful activities. In other words, it is to be understood that devotees are already freed from sin. A sinful person, a miscreant (duskrti, cannot engage in devotional service. Nor can one engage in devotional service simply on the basis of scholarly speculation. One has to wait for the mercy of the Lord in order to render pure devotional service. TEXT 93 The Bhattacarya said, "We are just having a discussion among friends and considering the points described in the scriptures. Do not become angry. I am simply speaking on the strength of the sastras. Please don't take any offense. TEXT 94 "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is certainly a great, uncommon devotee, but we cannot accept Him as an incarnation of Lord Visnu because, according to sastra, there is no incarnation in this Age of Kali. TEXT 95 "Another name for Lord Visnu is Triyuga because there is no incarnation of Lord Visnu in Kali-yuga. Indeed, this is the verdict of revealed scriptures." TEXT 96 Upon hearing this, Gopinatha Acarya became very unhappy. He said to the Bhattacarya, "You consider yourself the knower of all Vedic scriptures. TEXT 97 "Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Mahabharata are the two most important Vedic scriptures, but you have paid no attention to their statements. TEXT 98 "In Srimad-Bhagavatam and Mahabharata it is stated that the Lord appears directly, but you say that in this age there is no manifestation or incarnation of Lord Visnu. TEXT 99 "In this Age of Kali there is no lila-avatara of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore He is known as Triyuga. That is one of His holy names." PURPORT A lila-avatara is an incarnation of the Lord who performs a variety of activities without making any special endeavor. He always has one pastime after another, all full of transcendental pleasure, and these pastimes are fully controlled by the Supreme Person. The Supreme Person is totally independent of all others in these pastimes. While teaching Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 20.296-298), Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu pointed out that one cannot count the number of lila-avataras: lilavatara krsnera na yaya ganana pradhana kariya kahi dig-darasana "However," the Lord told Sanatana, "I shall explain the chief lila-avataras." matsya, kurma, raghunatha, nrsimha, vamana varahadi----lekha yanra na yaya ganana Thus the Lord's incarnations were enumerated, including Matsya, the fish incarnation; Kurma, the tortoise; Lord Ramacandra; Nrsimhadeva; Vamanadeva; and Varaha, the boar incarnation. Thus there are innumerable lila-avataras, and all of these exhibit wonderful pastimes. Lord Varaha, the boar incarnation, lifted the entire planet earth from the depths of the Garbhodaka Ocean. The tortoise incarnation, Lord Kurma, became a pivot for the emulsification of the whole sea, and Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared as half-man, half-lion. These are some of the wonderful and uncommon features of lila-avataras. In his book Laghu-bhagavatamrta, Srila Rupa Gosvami has enumerated the following twenty-five lila-avataras: Catuh-sana, Narada, Varaha, Matsya, Yajna, Nara-Narayana, Kapila, Dattatreya, Hayasirsa (Hayagriva), Hamsa, Prsnigarbha, Rsabha, Prthu, Nrsimha, Kurma, Dhanvantari, Mohini, Vamana, Parasurama, Raghavendra, Vyasa, Balarama, Krsna, Buddha and Kalki. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not mentioned as a lila-avatara because He is an incarnation in disguise (channa-avatara). In this Age of Kali there are no lila-avataras, but there is an incarnation of the Lord manifested in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This has been explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. TEXT 100 Gopinatha Acarya continued, "There is certainly an incarnation in every age, and such an incarnation is called the yuga-avatara. But your heart has become so hardened by logic and argument that you cannot consider all these facts. TEXT 101 " 'In the past, your son has had bodies of three different colors, according to the age. These colors were white, red and yellow. In this age [Dvapara-yuga] He has accepted a blackish body.' PURPORT This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.8.13) was spoken by Garga Muni when he was performing the rituals at Lord Krsna's name-giving ceremony. He states that the incarnations of the Lord in other ages had been white, red and yellow. This yellow color refers to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, whose bodily complexion was yellowish. This confirms that in the past Kali-yugas, the Lord also had incarnated in a body that was yellow in hue. It is understood that the Lord incarnates in different colors for the different yugas (Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali). Accepting the color yellow (pita), as well as other characteristics, the Lord incarnated as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This is the verdict of all Vedic authorities. TEXT 102 " 'In the Age of Kali, as well as in Dvapara-yuga, the people offer prayers to the Supreme Personality of Godhead by various mantras and observe the regulative principles of the supplementary Vedic literature. Now please hear of this from me. PURPORT This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.31). TEXT 103 " 'In this Age of Kali, those who are intelligent perform the congregational chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who appears in this age always describing the glories of Krsna. That incarnation is yellowish in hue and is always associated with His plenary expansions [such as Sri Nityananda Prabhu] and personal expansions [such as Gadadhara], as well as His devotees and associates [such as Svarupa Damodara].' PURPORT This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32) is explained by Sri Jiva Gosvami in his Krama-sandarbha, as quoted by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in regard to the explanation of Adi-lila, Third Chapter, verse 52. TEXT 104 " 'The Lord [in the incarnation of Gaurasundara] has a golden complexion. Indeed, His entire body, which is very nicely constituted, is like molten gold. Sandalwood pulp is smeared all over His body. He will take the fourth order of spiritual life [sannyasa] and will be very self-controlled. He will be distinguished from Mayavadi sannyasis in that He will be fixed in devotional service and will spread the sankirtana movement.' " PURPORT Gopinatha Acarya quoted this verse from the Mahabharata's Visnu-sahasra-nama-stotra. TEXT 105 Gopinatha Acarya then said, "There is no need to quote so much evidence from the sastras, for you are a very dry speculator. There is no need to sow seeds in barren land. TEXT 106 "When the Lord will be pleased with you, you will also understand these conclusions and will quote from the sastras. TEXT 107 "The false arguments and philosophical word jugglery of your disciples are not faults of theirs. They have simply received the benediction of Mayavada philosophy. TEXT 108 " 'I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is full of unlimited qualities and whose different potencies bring about agreement and disagreement between disputants. Thus the illusory energy again and again covers the self-realization of both disputants.' ****************** TEXT 65 TEXT sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra 'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara SYNONYMS sastra-yuktye--in argument and logic; su-nipuna--very expert; drdha-sraddha--firm faith and confidence in Krsna; yanra--whose; uttama-adhikari--the topmost devotee; sei--he; taraye samsara--can deliver the whole world. TRANSLATION "One who is expert in logic, argument and the revealed scriptures and who has firm faith in Krsna is classified as a topmost devotee. He can deliver the whole world. Yet in the Ramanada Samvasd, SCM rejects logic as external devotional service and later we read in Cc. TEXT 153 TEXT lobhe vraja-vasira bhave kare anugati sastra-yukti nahi mane----raganugara prakrti SYNONYMS lobhe--in such covetousness; vraja-vasira bhave--in the moods of the inhabitants of Vrndavana, Vraja; kare anugati--follows; sastra-yukti--injunctions or reasonings of the sastras; nahi mane--does not abide by; raganugara--of spontaneous love; prakrti--the nature. TRANSLATION "If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love. PURPORT Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrndavana-namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis, and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. Technically it is called svarupa-upalabdhi. This stage is not achieved in the beginning. In the beginning one has to render service strictly according to the regulative principles set forth by the revealed scriptures and spiritual master. By continuously rendering service through the process of vaidhi bhakti, one's natural inclination is gradually awakened. That is called spontaneous attraction, or raganuga bhakti. An advanced devotee situated on the platform of spontaneity is already very expert in sastric instruction, logic and argument. When he comes to the point of eternal love for Krsna, no one can deviate him from that position, neither by argument nor by sastric evidence. An advanced devotee has realized his eternal relationship with the Lord, and consequently he does not accept the logic and arguments of others. Such an advanced devotee has nothing to do with the sahajiyas, who manufacture their own way and commit sins by indulging in illicit sex, intoxication and gambling, if not meat-eating. Sometimes the sahajiyas imitate advanced devotees and live in their own whimsical way, avoiding the principles set down in the revealed scriptures. Unless one follows the six Gosvamis-Sri Rupa, Sanatana, Raghunatha Bhatta, Sri Jiva, Gopala Bhatta and Raghunatha dasa-one cannot be a bona fide spontaneous lover of Krsna. In this connection, Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says: rupa-raghunatha-pade haibe akuti kabe hama bujhaba se yugala piriti. The sahajiyas' understanding of the love affairs between Radha and Krsna is not bona fide because they do not follow the principles laid down by the six Gosvamis. Their illicit connection and their imitation of the dress of Rupa Gosvami as well as their avoidance of the prescribed methods of revealed scriptures will lead them to the lowest regions of hell. These imitative sahajiyas are cheated and unfortunate. They are not equal to advanced devotees (paramahamsas). Debauchees and paramahamsas are not on the same level. Cc.Madhya lila 22.153 TEXT 40 "When one is attracted to Krsna on the transcendental platform, there is no longer any logical logical argument on the basis of revealed scripture, nor are there considerations of such conclusions. This is His transcendental quality that is the essence of all transcendental sweetness. Cc. 24.40 Purports by HDGACBSP [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-20-2001).]
  5. jagat wrote: One who "makes" faith by basing it on falsification and appeals to authority is ultimately building a house on a very shaky foundation. Whose foundation is shakey? Always under guidance jagat, otherwise we are simply rudderless ships. rupa-raghunatha-pade ha-ibe akuti kabe hama bujhaba se yugala-piriti "When I shall be eager to understand the literature given by the Gosvamis, then I shall be able to understand the transcendental love affairs of Radha and Krsna." TEXT 34 TEXT anugrahaya bhaktanam manusam deham asritah bhajate tadrsih krida yah srutva tat-paro bhavet SYNONYMS anugrahaya--for showing favor; bhaktanam--to the devotees; manusam--humanlike; deham--body; asritah--accepting; bhajate--He enjoys; tadrsih--such; kridah--pastimes; yah--which; srutva--having heard; tat-parah--fully intent upon Him; bhavet--one must become. TRANSLATION "Krsna manifests His eternal humanlike form and performs His pastimes to show mercy to the devotees. Having heard such pastimes, one should engage in service to Him." PURPORT This text is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.36). The Supreme Personality of Godhead has innumerable expansions of His transcendental form who eternally exist in the spiritual world. This material world is only a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, where everything is manifested without inebriety. There everything is in its original existence, free from the domination of time. Time cannot deteriorate or interfere with the conditions in the spiritual world, where different manifestations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are the recipients of the worship of different living entities in their constitutional spiritual positions. In the spiritual world all existence is unadulterated goodness. The goodness found in the material world is contaminated by the modes of passion and ignorance. The saying that the human form of life is the best position for devotional service has its special significance because only in this form can a living entity revive his eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The human form is considered the highest state in the cycle of the species of life in the material world. If one takes advantage of this highest kind of material form, one can regain his position of devotional service to the Lord. Incarnations of the Supreme Personality of Godhead appear in all the species of life, although this is inconceivable to the human brain. The Lord's pastimes are differentiated according to the appreciating capacity of the different types of bodies of the living entities. The Supreme Lord bestows the most merciful benediction upon human society when He appears in His human form. It is then that humanity gets the opportunity to engage in different kinds of eternal service to the Lord. Special natural appreciation of the descriptions of a particular pastime of Godhead indicates the constitutional position of a living entity. Adoration, servitorship, friendship, parental affection and conjugal love are the five primary relationships with Krsna. The highest perfectional stage of the conjugal relationship, enriched by many sentiments, gives the maximum relishable mellow to the devotee. The Lord appears in different incarnations--as a fish, tortoise and boar, as Parasurama, Lord Rama, Buddha and so on--to reciprocate the different appreciations of living entities in different stages of evolution. The conjugal relationship of amorous love called parakiya-rasa is the unparalleled perfection of love exhibited by Lord Krsna and His devotees. A class of so-called devotees known as sahajiyas try to imitate the Lord's pastimes, although they have no understanding of the amorous love in His expansions of pleasure potency. Their superficial imitation can create havoc on the path for the advancement of one's spiritual relationship with the Lord. Material sexual indulgence can never be equated with spiritual love, which is in unadulterated goodness. The activities of the sahajiyas simply lower one deeper into the material contamination of the senses and mind. Krsna's transcendental pastimes display eternal servitorship to Adhoksaja, the Supreme Lord, who is beyond all conception through material senses. Materialistic conditioned souls do not understand the transcendental exchanges of love, but they like to indulge in sense gratification in the name of devotional service. The activities of the Supreme Lord can never be understood by irresponsible persons who think the pastimes of Radha and Krsna to be ordinary affairs. The rasa dance is arranged by Krsna's internal potency yogamaya, and it is beyond the grasp of the materially affected person. Trying to throw mud into transcendence with their perversity, the sahajiyas misinterpret the sayings tat-paratvena nirmalam and tat-paro bhavet. By misinterpreting tadrsih kridah, they want to indulge in sex while pretending to imitate Lord Krsna. But one must actually understand the imports of the words through the intelligence of the authorized gosvamis. Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, in his prayers to the Gosvamis, has explained his inability to understand such spiritual affairs. rupa-raghunatha-pade ha-ibe akuti kabe hama bujhaba se yugala-piriti "When I shall be eager to understand the literature given by the Gosvamis, then I shall be able to understand the transcendental love affairs of Radha and Krsna." In other words, unless one is trained under the disciplic succession of the Gosvamis, one cannot understand Radha and Krsna. The conditioned souls are naturally averse to understanding the spiritual existence of the Lord, and if they try to know the transcendental nature of the Lord's pastimes while they remain absorbed in materialism, they are sure to blunder like the sahajiyas. TEXT 35 TEXT 'bhavet' kriya vidhilin, sei iha kaya kartavya avasya ei, anyatha pratyavaya SYNONYMS bhavet--bhavet; kriya--the verb; vidhi-lin--an injunction of the imperative mood; sei--that; iha--here; kaya--says; kartavya--to be done; avasya--certainly; ei--this; anyatha--otherwise; pratyavaya--detriment. TRANSLATION Here the use of the verb "bhavet," which is in the imperative mood, tells us that this certainly must be done. Noncompliance would be abandonment of duty. PURPORT This imperative is applicable to pure devotees. Neophytes will be able to understand these affairs only after being elevated by regulated devotional service under the expert guidance of the spiritual master. Then they too will be competent to hear of the love affairs of Radha and Krsna. As long as one is in material, conditioned life, strict discipline is required in the matter of moral and immoral activities. The absolute world is transcendental and free from such distinctions because there inebriety is not possible. But in this material world a sexual appetite necessitates distinction between moral and immoral conduct. There are no sexual activities in the spiritual world. The transactions between lover and beloved in the spiritual world are pure transcendental love and unadulterated bliss. One who has not been attracted by the transcendental beauty of rasa will certainly be dragged down into material attraction, thus to act in material contamination and progress to the darkest region of hellish life. But by understanding the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna one is freed from the grip of attraction to material so-called love between man and woman. Similarly, one who understands the pure parental love of Nanda and Yasoda for Krsna will be saved from being dragged into material parental affection. If one accepts Krsna as the supreme friend, the attraction of material friendship will be finished for him, and he will not be dismayed by so-called friendship with mundane wranglers. If he is attracted by servitorship to Krsna, he will no longer have to serve the material body in the degraded status of material existence, with the false hope of becoming master in the future. Similarly, one who sees the greatness of Krsna in neutrality will certainly never again seek the so-called relief of impersonalist or voidist philosophy. If one is not attracted by the transcendental nature of Krsna, one is sure to be attracted to material enjoyment, thus to become implicated in the clinging network of virtuous and sinful activities and continue material existence by transmigrating from one material body to another. Only in Krsna consciousness can one achieve the highest perfection of life. Cc. ADi lila 4.34-35 HDGACBSP [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-20-2001).]
  6. jagat has written: Nevertheless, it is clear that Prabodhananda shared with Harivams a strong belief in a path of devotion which did not consider the limits of scriptural injunctions, rAgAnugA bhakti according to the Gaudiyas, puSTi-mArga according to the Vallabhis and rasa-mArga according to the Radha-vallabhis. This idea he may have taken to a degree unacceptable to the Gaudiyas, as we shall see in the next sections of this article. The remainder of Prabodhananda's life was spent writing books that defined a devotional attitude somewhat independent of the Gaudiya school. This was apparently done in close contact with the circle of devotees that included Hita Harivams, Swami Haridas, and Hariram Vyas. He continued to be respected by the descendants of Harivams, whom he outlived, even collaborating on a work in Sanskrit by Harivams's son, Krishna Chandra. He probably did not live much beyond 1578, which is when he assisted Krishna Chandra Goswami in writing KarNAnanda. His samadhi, however, is found in Kalidaha in Vrindavan where it is under the aegis of the Gaudiya sect, indicating that his association with Gaudiyas evidently continued to the end of his days. . . Whether for this reason or any other, it seems that Prabodhananda was independent in his opinions, making him a rather exceptional character who was not necessarily appreciated by those who considered Rupa Goswami to be the supreme authority of the Gaudiya school. Prabodhananda's close friendship with Harivams in particular may not have been looked upon with great favor by the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Let us now turn to an examination of Harivams' relationship to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. and Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments about such kinds of conclusions in his purport to sloka 37 of Sri Brahma samhita: What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons. There is, however, the element of mystery in their verbal controversies. Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views. This remark is made by SBSST in connection with a so called controversy concerning Srila Jiva Gosvami,who is fraudulently juxtaposed to Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana, but the principle still applies. jagat claims scholarly neutrality, but when it suits his agenda he is quick enough to accept the history of Prabhodananda according to his Radha Vallabhi sources and reject the statements of the gaudiyas. If this is neutral unbiased scholarship then political agendas are written by scholars. I am not certain so no one can be certain. Sounds like the frog in the well philosophy to me. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-16-2001).]
  7. "Secondly, they think that Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati are the same person, although there is so much difference between them. This cannot be so. Will a person of the Ramanuja Sampradaya go down to become a Mayavadi like Prakasananda Sarasvati, and then again become Prabhodananda Sarasvati, who was so exalted that he became the guru of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami? This idea is absurd. Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were contemporaries. Will the same person go back and forth, being a Vaisnava in South India, then becoming a Mayavadi, again becoming a Vaisnava in Vrndavana, and again becoming a Mayavadi? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has vividly written about this, and great historians and research scholars have also rejected the idea that they are the same person. Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja Take this statement or leave it as you wish. Seems much clearer thinking on the topic to me than all the muddled inconclusive conclusions of jagat's paper that there is no definitive way to say what is what or who is who!! In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said: tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham "In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth." You and jagat are both missing the point of Bg. 4.34 by your own choice. As you wish. Birds of a feather fly together. Happy goose chase. "It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase. There are not a few dupes of their empiric Scriptural erudition. These dupes have their admiring under-dupes. But the mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves. What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects." SBSST [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-16-2001).]
  8. Thank you for the clarification Jagat. That is no so apparant in the title, and could be taken either way, could it not? I am simply more attacted to love and affection than intellectualism. The cacophany of your empiric investigations may be sweet music to your intellect, but holds no attraction for an uneducated fool like myself, who can only try to take shelter of the maha mantra. When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu inquired from his gurudeva about vedanta, he was told not to study it, but only chant instead. The explanation offered by one of our gaudiya sannyasis, is that SCM's mood was already so imbibed with maha-bhava that his gurudeva thought study of vedanta was unsuitable for one so absorbed in prema. We can only pray for some attraction to this eternal mood and to one day appreciate the books of the Gosvamis, who embody it. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-16-2001).]
  9. Just this short addendum to your addendum. Your remarks presuppose a conclusion that is not necessarily valid. A sad guru is not necessarily looking for followers. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has advised that three things are dangerous in kali yuga, too much wealth, association of women and too many followers. If any sad guru choses to offer the mercy of his sanga and assist others to advance in spiritual life it behooves anyone to either guess or insinuate that his motives are anything but selfless and a manifestation of krpa. If you don't feel that way about those who proscelatise the mission of SCM widely, to make it available to one and all, then we can't do or say anything. SBSST is also criticised for establishing the Gaudiya Matha. If you don't see the institution he founded as a means to a goal, krsna prema, then you misunderstand the reason he founded it. Similarly if HDGACBSP founded an international society for the same goal, when the goal is lost by certain members that does not invalidate the original purpose of his mission. The use of words like rivalry is misleading. If any gaudiya-acarya cautions his disciples to be aware of the differences between how our guru varga view sadhana and bhajana ompared to other schools of thought that is not to "chain" them or keep them mental chattel, but protect them from concepts and practices he deems not beneficial to the dvelopment of their bhakti creeper. They are free to accept his advice or reject, as we can see. Sri Guru is supposed to guide his followers. Satyam demands he do so even if it causes some distruption in social ettiquette. This difference of how to perform sadhana and bhajana,particularly over who is qualified to accept siddha pranali and when it should be offered, is certainly there between the babaji camp and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. It still exists today in the followers of each school of thought. No surprise, and it is not a matter of competition for followers, or a number's game as you and jagat suggest. We don't beleive that SBSST was sectarian, but realized. We don't beleive that Srila Narayana Maharaj's remarks about the babaji or sahajiya camp are unreasonable either. You don't agree. As you wish. But we find the principle of Bg. 4.34 more valuable and reasonable than your laukika estimations of acaryas we accept as tattva-darsi. That is all. There is really not much room for discussion between us because we accept different premises, different guidelines for making spiritual progress and different guru vargas. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura have given us sound advice of how to discriminate what kind of association to embrace. We wish you well, but will have to follow upeksa when it comes to making progress in cultivating bhakti.
  10. Ananga, If I felt that our guru varga has "hidden" the truth or misdirected us on the matter of who Prabhodhananda Sarasvati is and isn't, then there might be some need for further investigation, otherwise not. Jagat is impelled to consult the writing of Bhagavat Mudita, of whom he explains: His relation to the Gaudiya school is confirmed in his own Rasika Ananya Mala (dated between 1650-1665), (57) which starts with obeisances to Chaitanya and Nityananda. In spite of this,it is clear that Bhagavat Mudita's affections lie with Harivams and the Radha-vallabhi holy men, whom he chose to glorify in this work, If that pleases his intellect then I don't really concern myself. I don't beleive his article firmly establishes Prabhodananda Sarasvati's identity more conclusively than the word of our guru varga, who differ in view. Thoug he has concedd there are two views on this issue his declaration of impartiality is not reflected in his title, PRABODHANANDA SARASWATI:FROM BENARES TO BRAJ but rather pre supposes that Prabhodananda is the same personality as Prakasananda Sarasvati, which our guru varga does not accept for other reasons. Even in the middle of posting the article he declares he doesn't really care who he is. Then also he presents so many contradictory claims, from this source and that, too numerous to mention or troublesome to point out. I have read the article carefully and don't see anything overwhelmingly convincing over the word of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura in the matter. I asked him earlier why he thought his sources were worthy of any more consideration than the opinion of SBSST in this matter and it is clear to me that he places little or no value in the word of our guru varga and can therefore dismiss it or accept other authorities in their place. Free will. As he wishes. However the sublte minmization of the efficacy of the writing of Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami is apparant in his essay. The minmization of the efficacy of Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana's discourses on Madhva and the connection to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu were apparant in other posts on that topic. Rather than being impartial, jagat has proven, time and again, that he favors the view of the Radha vallabhi sect,and choses to believe Bhagvat Mudita instead of others. As he wishes. WE are trying to follow the principles enunciated by Lord Krsna in Bg. 4.34. pranipatena is translated in the purport of that verse by Srila Narayana Maharaja, our siksa gurudeva, to mean: "Pranipatena means to affectionately offer pranamas with either eight or five limbs of the body. Pranama or namaskara means to give up one's false ego and bow down. Here seva means to render favourable service for the pleasure of the guru. This sloka describes two symptoms of a guru who bestows transcendental knowledge; he is both a jñani… and a tattva-darsi. One who has studied sastra and understood the knowledge in it is called a jñani…, while a tattva-darsi is a maha-purusa who has direct realization of tattva. . ." We are not going to debate who is a maha purusa and who is not, who is tattva-darsi and who is not. Sraddha is not a matter of philosophical debate. However, because we are accepting our guru varga as tattva-darsi we don't doubt their assessments of who Prabhodananda Sarasvati Thakura is or isn't. We don't expect you or jagat to be sympathetic to our view, since you want to yet again minmize such acceptance as "being schooled in prima facie." So much for Lord Krsna's advise about how to approach Sri Guru, render service and inquire submissively. We beleive that Krsna has more to say about how transcendental knowledge is transmitted than anyone's opinion or scholastic research. That is all. Simple for the straight and complicated for the crooked.
  11. Gaurancandra prabhu, Your question is a simple one, but the answer is complicated. There are manifest and unmanifest pastimes. SBSST has written about the apparant differences between the manifest lilas (those that appear in this world, refered to as gokula pastimes, once every day of Brahma) and those that are eternally manifest in the eternal realm goloka. Of course Krsna's lila even in the material world is considered eternal, because the different pastimes are always manifesting somewhere. But particular aspects of his life like His birth, maturation and departure from braja for his Mathura, then Dwaraka and Kurukshetra lilas appear to have a chronology for our benefit, since we are only capable of relating to relative time in terms of beginning, middle and end. Krsna also manifests a pastime of departure as well, when he is shot by the arrow of the hunter with that last piece of the stone cursed by Durvas muni , to annihilate the Yadu dynasty. In the spiritual world the concept is there of the "eternal present." How is it possible for us to understand this conception from our conditioned way of thinking? Therefore if you read this purport (only one segment of it is reproduced here) by SBSST to sloka 37 of the Sri Brahma-samhita you may get some idea of the answer to your question. SBSST requires concentration and care to be understood. Take your time and consider his points about manifest and unmanifest lilas. Krsna and his pastimes are not a simple linear equation that we can understand from our conditioned perspective. SBSST also explains that as well in his purport. TEXT 37 TEXT ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami SYNONYMS ananda--bliss; cit--and knowledge; maya--consisting of; rasa--mellows; prati--every second; bhavitabhih--who are engrossed with; tabhih--with those; yah--who; eva--certainly; nija-rupataya--with His own form; kalabhih--who are parts of portions of His pleasure potency; goloke--in Goloka Vrndavana; eva--certainly; nivasati--resides; akhila-atma--as the soul of all; bhutah--who exists; govindam--Govinda; adi-purusam--the original personality; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajami--worship. TRANSLATION I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, residing in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, resembling His own spiritual figure, the embodiment of the ecstatic potency possessed of the sixty-four artistic activities, in the company of Her confidantes [sakhis], embodiments of the extensions of Her bodily form, permeated and vitalized by His ever-blissful spiritual rasa. PURPORT . . . From the conclusions just stated it is clear that there is no distinction between the visible and nonvisible pastimes. The apostle Jiva Gosvami in his commentary on this sloka as well as in the gloss of Ujjvala-nilamani and in Krsna-sandarbha remarks that "the visible pastimes of Krsna are the creation of His cit (spiritual) potency. Being in conjunction with the reference to mundane function they exhibit certain features which seem to be true by the influence of the limiting potency (Maya); but these cannot exist in the transcendental reality. The destruction of demons, illicit paramourship, birth, etc., are examples of this peculiarity. The gopis are the extensions of the ecstatic energy of Krsna, and so are exceptionally His own. How can there be illicit connection in their case? The illicit mistress-ship of the gopis found in His visible pastime, is but the mundane reflection of the transcendental reality." The hidden meaning underlying the words of Sri Jiva Gosvami, when it is made explicit, will leave no doubt in the minds of the readers. Sri Jiva Gosvami is our preacher of transcendental truth. So he is always under the influence of Sri Rupa and Sanatana. Moreover in the pastimes of Krsna Sri Jiva is one of the manjaris. So he is conversant with all transcendental realities. There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements, give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies. Sri Rupa and Sanatana say that there is no real and essential distinction between the lilas visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this that one is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In the supermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and the seen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by Krsna, can shake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendental region after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that is available during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a view and taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lila of Goloka. Such receptive natures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, can also realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of Krsna by being enabled to attain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of the pastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lila of Gokula. There is certainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of the truth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must be hampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes of Goloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according to the degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also vary accordingly. It is only those fettered souls who are excessively addicted to worldliness that are devoid of the devotional eye. Of them some are enmeshed by the variegatedness of the deluding energy while others aspire after self-annihilation under the influence of centrifugal knowledge. Though they might have a view of the mundanely manifested pastimes of the Supreme Lord, they can have only a material conception of those visible pastimes, this conception being devoid of transcendental reality. Hence the realization of Goloka appears in proportion to eligibility due to the degree of one's self-realization. The underlying principle is this, that, though Gokula is as holy and free from dross as Goloka, still it is manifested on the mundane plane by the influence of the cit potency. Yogamaya. In visible and nonvisible matters of transcendental regions there is no impurity. contamination and imperfection inherent in the world of limitation; only there is some difference in the matter of realization in proportion to the self-realization of the seekers after the Absolute. Impurity. unwholesomeness, foreign elements, illusion, nescience, unholiness, utter inadequacy. insignificance, grossness--these appertain to the eye, intellect, mind and ego stultified by the material nature of conditioned souls; they have nothing to do with the essential nature of transcendence. The more one is free from these blots the more is one capable of realizing the unqualified Absolute. The truth who has been revealed by the scriptures, is free from dross. But the realizations of the seekers of the knowledge of these realities, are with or without flaw in accordance with the degree of their individual realization. Those sixty-four arts that have been enumerated above, do in reality exist unstintedly only in Goloka. Unwholesomeness, insignificance, grossness are found in those arts in accordance with the degree of self-realization on the part of aspirants after the knowledge of the Absolute. According to Srila Rupa and Srila Sanatana all those pastimes, that have been visible in Gokula, exist in all purity and free from all tinge of limitation in Goloka. So transcendental autocratic paramourship also exists in Goloka in inconceivable purity, judged by the same standard and reasoning. All manifestation by the cit potency. Yogamaya, are pure. So, as the above paramourship is the creation of Yogamaya, it is necessarily free from all contamination, and appertains to the absolute reality. Let us pause to consider what the absolute reality is in Himself. Sri Rupa Gosvami says, purvokta-... saratah. In regard to these slokas Sripada Jiva Gosvami after mature deliberation has established the transcendental paramourship as vibhrama-vilasa, something seemingly different from what it appears to be; such are the pastimes of birth, etc., accomplished by Yogamaya. By the explanation tathapi... vraja-vanitanam, Srila Jiva Gosvami has expressed his profound implication. Joyous pastimes by the medium of seeming error, vibhrama-vilasa, as the contrivance of Yogamaya, has also been admitted in the concluding statements of Rupa and Sanatana. Still, since Sripada Jiva Gosvami has established the identity of Goloka with Gokula, it must be admitted that there is transcendental reality underlying all the pastimes of Gokula. A husband is one who binds oneself in wedlock with a girl, while a paramour is one who, in order to win another's wife's love by means of love, crosses the conventions of morality. by the impulse of the sentiment that regards her love as the be-all and end-all of existence. In Goloka there is no such function at all as that of the nuptial relationship. Hence there is no husbandhood characterized by such connection. On the other hand since the gopis, who are self-supported real entities are not tied to anybody else in wedlock, they cannot also have the state of concubinage. There can also be no separate entities in the forms of svakiya (conjugal) and parakiya (adulterous) states. In the visible pastimes on the mundane plane the function in the form of the nuptial relationship is found to exist. Krsna is beyond the scope of that function. Hence the said function of the circle of all-love is contrived by Yogamaya. Krsna tastes the transcendental rasa akin to paramourship by overstepping that function. This pastime of going beyond the pale of the apparent moral function manifested by Yogamaya, is, however, also observable only on the mundane plane by the eye that is enwrapped by the mundane covering; but there is really no such levity in the pastimes of Krsna. The rasa of paramourship is certainly the extracted essence of all the rasas. If it be said that it does not exist in Goloka, it would be highly deprecatory to Goloka. It is not the fact that there is no supremely wholesome tasting of rasa in the supremely excellent realm of Goloka. Krsna, the fountainhead of all avataras. tastes the same in a distinct form in Goloka and in another distinct form in Gokula. Therefore, in spite of the seeming appearance, to the mundane eye, of outstepping the bounds of the legitimate function by the form of paramourship, there must be present the truth of it in some form even in Goloka. Atmaramo 'py ariramat, atmany avaruddha-sauratah, reme vraja-sundaribhir yatharbhakah pratibimba-vibhramah and other texts of the scriptures go to show that self-delightedness is the essential distinctive quality of Krsna Himself. Krsna in His majestic cit realm causes the manifestation of His own cit potency as Laksmi and enjoys her as His own wedded consort. As this feeling of wedded consorthood preponderates there, rasa expands in a wholesome form only up to the state of servanthood (dasya-rasa). But in Goloka He divides up His cit potency into thousands of gopis and eternally engages in amorous pastimes with them by forgetting the sentiments of ownership. By the sentiments of ownership there cannot be the extreme inaccessibility of the rasa. So the gopis have naturally. from eternity. the innate sentiment of being others' wedded wives. Krsna too in response to that sentiment, by assuming the reciprocal sentiment of paramourship, performs the rasa and the other amorous pastimes with the aid of the flute, His favorite cher ami. Goloka is the transcendental seat of eternally self-realized rasa, beyond limited conception. Hence in Goloka there is realization of the sentimental assumption of the rasa of paramourship. Again such is the nature of the principle of the majesty that in the realm of Vaikuntha there is no rasa of parental affection towards the source of all avataras. But in Goloka, the seat of all superexcellent deliciousness, there is no more than the original sentimental egoistic assumption of the same rasa. There Nanda and Yasoda are visibly present, but there is no occurrence of birth. For want of the occurrence of birth the assumed egoistic sentiment of parental affection of Nanda and Yasoda has no foundation in the actual existence of such entities as father and mother, but it is of the nature of sentimental assumption on their parts, cf. jayati jana-nivaso devaki-janma-vadah, etc. For the purpose of the realization of the rasa the assumed egoistic sentiment is, however, eternal. In the rasa of amorous love if the corresponding egoistic sentiments of concubinage and paramourship be mere eternal assumptions there is nothing to blame in them and it also does not go against the scriptures. When those transcendental entities of Goloka becomes manifest in Vraja then those two egoistic sentiments become somewhat more palpable to the mundane view in the phenomenal world and there comes to be this much difference only. In the rasa of parental affection the sentiments of Nanda and Yasoda that they are parents becomes manifest in the more tangible form in the pastimes of birth etc., and in the amorous rasa the corresponding sentiments of concubinage in the respective gopis become manifest in the forms of their marriages with Abhimanyu, Govardhana, etc. In reality there is no such separate entity as husbandhood of the gopis either in Goloka or in Gokula. Hence the sastras declare that there is no sexual union of the gopis with their husbands. It is also for the same reason that the authorized teacher of the principle of rasa, Sri Rupa, writes that in the transcendental amorous rasa the hero is of two different types, viz., the wedded husband and the paramour--patis copapatis ceti prabhedav iha visrutav iti. Sri Jiva, in his commentary by his words patih pura-vanitanam dvitiyo vraja-vanitanam, acknowledges the eternal paramourship of Krsna in Goloka and Gokula and the husbandhood of Krsna in Vaikuntha and Dvaraka etc. In the Lord of Goloka and the Lord of Gokula the character of paramourship is found in its complete form. Krsna's deliberate overstepping of His own quality of self-delightedness is caused by the desire of union with another's wedded wife. The state of being another's wedded wife is nothing but the corresponding assumed sentiment on the part of the gopis. In reality they have no husbands with independent and separate existence; still their very egoistic sentiment makes them have the nature of the wedded wives of others. So all the characteristics, viz., that "desire makes the paramour overstep the bounds of duty." etc., are eternally present in the seat of all "deliciousness." In Vraja that very thing reveals itself, to an extent, in a form more tangible to persons with mundane eyes. So in Goloka there is inconceivable distinction and nondistinction between the rasas analogous to mundane concubineship and wifehood. It may be said with equal truth that there is no distinction in Goloka between the two as also that there is such distinction. The essence of paramourship is the cessation of ownership and the abeyance of ownership is the enjoyment of His own cit potency in the shape of abeyance of paramourship or enjoyment without the sanction of wedlock. The conjunction of the two exists there as one rasa accommodating both varieties. In Gokula it is really the same with the difference that it produces a different impression on observers belonging to the mundane plane. In Govinda, the hero of Goloka, there exist both husbandhood and paramourship above all piety and impiety and free from all grossness. Such is also the case with the hero of Gokula although there is a distinction in realization caused by Yogamaya. If it be urged that what is manifested by Yogamaya is the highest truth being the creation of the cit potency and that, therefore, the impression of paramourship is also really true, the reply is that there may exist an impression of analogous sentimental egoism in the tasting of rasa free from any offense because it is not without a basis in truth. But the unwholesome impression that is produced in the mundane judgment is offensive and as such cannot exist in the pure cit realm. In fact Sripada Jiva Gosvami has come to the true conclusion, and at the same time the finding of the opposing party is also inconceivably true. It is the vain empirical wranglings about wedded wifehood and concubinage which is false and full of specious verbosity. He who goes through the commentaries of Sripada Jiva Gosvami and those of the opposing party with an impartial judgment cannot maintain his attitude of protest engendered by any real doubt. What the unalloyed devotee of the Supreme Lord says is all true and is independent of any consideration of unwholesome pros and cons. There is, however, the element of mystery in their verbal controversies. Those, whose judgment is made of mundane stuff, being unable to enter into the spirit of the all-loving controversies among pure devotees, due to their own want of unalloyed devotion, are apt to impute to the devotees their own defects of partisanship and opposing views. Commenting on the sloka of Rasa-pancadhyayi, gopinam tat-patinam ca, etc., what Sripada Sanatana Gosvami has stated conclusively in his Vaisnava-tosani has been accepted with reverence by the true devotee Sripada Visvanatha Cakravarti without any protest. Whenever any dispute arises regarding the pure cognitive pastimes, such as Goloka, etc., we would do well to remember the precious advice from the holy lips of Sriman Mahaprabhu and His associates, the Gosvamis, viz., that the Truth Absolute is ever characterized by spiritual variegatedness that transcends the variegatedness of mundane phenomena; but He is never featureless. The divine rasa is lovely with the variegatedness of the fourfold distinction of vibhava, anubhava, sattvika and vyabhicari and the rasa is ever present in Goloka and Vaikuntha. The rasa of Goloka manifests as vraja-rasa on the mundane plane for the benefit of the devotees by the power of Yogamaya. Whatever is observable in gokula-rasa should be visible in goloka-rasa, in a clearly explicit form. Hence the distinction of paramourship and concubinage, the variegatedness of the respective rasas of all different persons, the soil, water, river, hill, portico, bower, cows, etc., all the features of Gokula exist in Goloka, disposed in an appropriate manner. There is only this peculiarity that the mundane conceptions of human beings possessed of material judgment, regarding those transcendental entities, do not exist there. The conception of Goloka manifests itself differently in proportion to the degree of realization of the various pastimes of Vraja and it is very difficult to lay down any definite criterion as to which portions are mundane and which are uncontaminated. The more the eye of devotion is tinged with the salve of love, the more will the transcendental concept gradually manifest itself. So there is no need of further hypothetical speculation which does not improve one's spiritual appreciation, as the substantive knowledge of Goloka is an inconceivable entity. To try to pursue the inconceivable by the conceptual process is like pounding the empty husk of grain, which is sure to have a fruitless ending. It is, therefore, one's bounden duty. by refraining from the endeavor to know, to try to gain the experience of the transcendental by the practice of pure devotion. Any course, the adoption of which tends to produce the impression of featurelessness, must be shunned by all means. Unalloyed parakiya-rasa free from all mundane conception is a most rare attainment. It is this which has been described in the narrative of the pastimes of Gokula. Those devotees, who follow the dictate of their pure spontaneous love, should base their devotional endeavors on that narrative. They will attain to the more wholesome fundamental principle on reaching the stage of realization. The devotional activities characterized by illicit amour, as practiced by worldly-minded conditioned souls, are forbidden mundane impiety. The heart of our apostle Sripada Jiva Gosvami was very much moved by such practices and induced him to give us his conclusive statements on the subject. It is the duty of a pure Vaisnava to accept the real spirit of his statements. It is a great offense to disrespect the acarya and to seek to establish a different doctrine in opposition to him. SBSST Highlighted sections also refer to SBSST's observations concerning Srila Jiva Gosvami and the other discussion going on between myself and jagat concerning his view of rasa. One other point is that Krsna never leaves braja, but is always engaging eternaly in pstimes with Sri Radha. Our acaryas have explained that the Krsna who kills the demons, enters Mathura and kills kamsa, manifests lila in Dwarka and elsewhere are expansions of the Supreme Lord. This is also not a linear equation as Krsna is non different from his expansions, yet some distinction is still there. Information about this is available in sections of the Sri Cc. or Teachings of Lord Caitanya if you are interested. In this regard my spiritual master has written: When the Lord descends, the incarnation emanates from Visnu. Maha-Visnu is the original cause of material creation, and from Him Garbhodakasayi Visnu expands, and then Ksirodakasayi Visnu. Generally, all the incarnations appearing within this material universe are plenary expansions from Ksirodakasayi Visnu. Therefore, the business of minimizing the overload of sinful activities on this earth does not belong to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna Himself. But when Krsna appears, all the Visnu expansions also join with Him. Krsna's different expansions, namely Narayana, the quadruple expansion of Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna and Aniruddha, as well as the partial plenary expansion of Matsya or the incarnation of a fish, and the yuga-avataras (incarnations for the millennium), and the manvantara-avataras, the incarnations of Manus--all combine together and appear with the body of Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krsna is the complete whole, and all plenary expansions and incarnations always live with Him. When Krsna appeared, Lord Visnu was also with Him. Krsna actually appears to demonstrate His Vrndavana pastimes and to attract the fortunate conditioned souls and invite them back home, back to Godhead. The killing of the demons was simultaneous to His Vrndavana activities and was carried out by the Visnu portion of Krsna. HDGACBSP Krnsa Book [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-08-2001).]
  12. Impurity. unwholesomeness, foreign elements, illusion, nescience, unholiness, utter inadequacy. insignificance, grossness--these appertain to the eye, intellect, mind and ego stultified by the material nature of conditioned souls; they have nothing to do with the essential nature of transcendence. The more one is free from these blots the more is one capable of realizing the unqualified Absolute. The truth who has been revealed by the scriptures, is free from dross. But the realizations of the seekers of the knowledge of these realities, are with or without flaw in accordance with the degree of their individual realization . . . . The more the eye of devotion is tinged with the salve of love, the more will the transcendental concept gradually manifest itself. So there is no need of further hypothetical speculation which does not improve one's spiritual appreciation, as the substantive knowledge of Goloka is an inconceivable entity. To try to pursue the inconceivable by the conceptual process is like pounding the empty husk of grain, which is sure to have a fruitless ending. It is, therefore, one's bounden duty. by refraining from the endeavor to know, to try to gain the experience of the transcendental by the practice of pure devotion. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Sri Brahma-samhita purport verse 37 [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-08-2001).]
  13. Ananga, Mundane sexuality is about as far from this discussion as we are from the sun planet. "The pastimes of the Lord are generally heard and relished by liberated souls. Those who are conditioned souls are interested in reading fictional stories of the material activities of some common man. Narrations describing the transcendental activities of the Lord are found in Srimad-Bhagavatam and other Puranas. But, the conditioned souls still prefer to study ordinary narrations. They are not so interested in studying the narrations of the pastimes of the Lord, Krsna. And yet, the descriptions of the pastimes of Lord Krsna are so attractive that they are relishable for all classes of men. There are three classes of men in this world. One class consists of liberated souls, another consists of those who are trying to be liberated, and the third consists of materialistic men. Whether one is liberated or is trying to be liberated, or is even grossly materialistic, the pastimes of Lord Krsna are worth studying. Liberated souls have no interest in materialistic activities. The impersonalist theory that after liberation one becomes inactive and needs hear nothing does not prove that a liberated person is actually inactive. A living soul cannot be inactive. He is either active in the conditioned state or in the liberated state. A diseased person, for example, is also active, but his activities are all painful. The same person, when freed from the diseased condition, is still active, but in the healthy condition the activities are full of pleasure. Similarly, the impersonalists manage to get freed from the diseased conditional activities, but they have no information of activities in the healthy condition. Those who are actually liberated and in full knowledge take to hearing the activities of Krsna; such engagement is pure spiritual activity. It is essential for persons who are actually liberated to hear about the pastimes of Krsna. That is the supreme relishable subject matter for one in the liberated state. Also, if persons who are trying to be liberated hear such narrations as Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, then their path of liberation becomes very clear. Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary study of Srimad-Bhagavatam. By studying the Gita, one becomes fully conscious of the position of Lord Krsna; and when he is situated at the lotus feet of Krsna, he understands the narrations of Krsna as described in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Lord Caitanya has therefore advised His followers that their business is to propagate krsna-katha. Krsna-katha means narrations about Krsna. There are two krsna-kathas: narrations spoken by Krsna and narrations spoken about Krsna. Bhagavad-gita is the narration or the philosophy or the science of God, spoken by Krsna Himself. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the narration about the activities and transcendental pastimes of Krsna. Both are krsna-katha. It is the order of Lord Caitanya that krsna-katha should be spread all over the world, because if the conditioned souls, suffering under the pangs of material existence, take to krsna-katha, then their path of liberation will be open and clear. The purpose of presenting this book is primarily to induce people to understand Krsna or krsna-katha, because thereby they can become freed from material bondage. This krsna-katha will also be very much appealing to the most materialistic persons because Krsna's pastimes with the gopis (cowherd girls) are exactly like the loving affairs between young girls and boys within this material world. Actually, the sex feeling found in human society is not unnatural because this same sex feeling is there in the original Personality of Godhead. The pleasure potency is called Srimati Radharani. The attraction of loving affairs on the basis of sex feeling is the original feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we, the conditioned souls, being part and parcel of the Supreme, have such feelings also, but they are experienced within a perverted, minute condition. Therefore, when those who are after sex life in this material world hear about Krsna's pastimes with the gopis, they will relish transcendental pleasure, although it appears to be materialistic. The advantage will be that they will gradually be elevated to the spiritual platform. In the Bhagavatam it is stated that if one hears the pastimes of Lord Krsna with the gopis, from authorities with submission, then he will be promoted to the platform of transcendental loving service to the Lord, and the material disease of lust within his heart will be completely vanquished. In other words, it will counteract the material sex life Krsna will be thus appealing to the liberated souls and to persons who are trying to be liberated, as well as to the gross, conditioned materialist. According to the statement of Maharaja Pariksit, who heard about Krsna from Sukadeva Gosvami, krsna-katha is equally applicable to every human being, in whatever condition of life he is in. Everyone will appreciate it to the highest magnitude . . . Thus everyone, in any condition of life, should be interested in hearing about Krsna and His activities because He is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead. He is all-pervading; He is living within everyone's heart, and He is living as His universal form. And yet, as described in the Bhagavad-gita, He appears as He is in human society just to invite everyone to His transcendental abode, back home, back to Godhead. Everyone should be interested in knowing about Krsna." HDGACBSP Krsna Book [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-08-2001).]
  14. Originally posted by Jagat: I quite agree with most of the things that are stated in your last post, Puru. I don't think that empiric knowledge is the object of spiritual life, either. I'm glad to hear that. My feeling is, however, that in some cases devotees themselves mistake empiric for spiritual knowledge. This is exactly what I have been saying all along. I couldn't agree more, and that is all the more reason that I personally depend on the direction of Sri Guru in such matters. How to distinguish the mind's sankalpa, vikalpa with genuine realization, as I understand, is to confirm with guru, sadhu and shastra and not depend on our own subtle body or its imperfect perceptions. SBSST when explaining the sloka in Brahma-samhita, premanjana churrita bhaktivilocanena . . .explains that the eye tinged with the salve of love is actually the mind's eye of the siddha, perfected spiritual form. You take the Prabodhananda/Prakashananda question -- a matter that can be established by empirical means, i.e., through textual evidence -- and make it an issue that legitimizes someone's spiritual standing. That isn't my point or Srila Naryan Maharaj's point at all. Emprical evidence of another point of view may be there, and we don't deny that (though we haven't seen it clearly presented) it may exist. Whether we want to accept it in lieu of the words of Sri Guru is another matter altogether. You give it more importance than we do. I don't see anything illogical or contradictory in both SP's purports and SNM's point that the same person is not one day a mayavada and the next a member of the Sri Sampradaya. You have some doubt about their point of view and I don't doubt their observations. In other words, if I agree with you, I am spiritually OK, if I don't agree, I am not. This is the attitude I object to, with all my heart. NOt with me. I am a bhadda jiva. But with Sri Guru, whose intelligence is liberated and not on the same level as ours. Though you think I am a fanatic it isn't the case. Only difference between us is that I am prepared to accept the answer to any inquiry I make from our guru parampara and you already think you know a better answer and want them to change to your point of view. Listen. Everytime I read in SP's books or hear from SNM that the "sahajiya" for lack of a better word, or the babaji camp believe this or that, then you post something that simply confirms it. Your current article about Srila Jiva is proof yet again of what I already posted from SNM on this topic. When your article is fully up I'll post something from SBSST that indicates he is fully aware of the so called controversey you point out, but he doesn't think it is really a point of contention either. As far as Krsna marrying the gopis, I have been told by our guru varga that the year that the cowherd boys disapperaead in the cave, put there by lord Brahma, while Krsna had taken all their places was the year the gopis were married to the gopas. So in that sense, since Krsna is their only real consort they are married to him. But the deeper aspects of parakiya and svakiya are discussed elsewhere in SBSST's Brama-samhita purports and the books of Srila Rupa Gosvami. I see consitancy in the position of our acaryas on these issues, and it only confirms to me they are in line with each other. And you don't appreciate them but would rather research it yourself and come to your own empiric conclusions. Interestingly enough in your last posted paragraph from your article (Which I am reading carefuly) you say: "In the discussion that follows, an attempt is made to delineate not only the salient conclusions of the KrishnaS that form the backbone of GC (many of which are explicitly stated in GC itself), but also those found in the works of Rupa Goswami and Jiva's commentaries upon them. Indeed the latter discussion is perhaps of greater importance, for it is in these works that Jiva has defended his vision of Krishna on the basis of Rupa's conceptions and identified his views with those of his spiritual master." which appears to agree with Srila Naryan Maharaj's ascertions that: . . . They say that in his explanations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Brahma-samhita, in his own books like Gopala Campu, and especially in his Sri Ujjvala-nilamani tika, he has written against parakiya-bhava. This is their greatest blunder. We don’t accept their statements at all. Srila Jiva Gosvami was rupanuga, a pure follower of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Sri Rupa Manjari. However, for some devotees who were not very qualified at that time, who were beginners, and who did not know what is parakiya-bhava -- and even in Vraja there are so many like this -- he seemed to favor svakiya-bhava. For some followers, so that they would be able to come at least to vidhi-marga (worship according to the rules and regulations of Narada-pancaratra), Jiva Gosvami wrote as if he was a supporter of svakiya-rasa. He wanted that through this they should become qualified, and then they should come to the mood of parakiya. For qualified persons he has written that parakiya-bhava is in Vraja and svakiya-bhava is in Dvaraka. He has vividly written this, and he also accepted this. He can never be against the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He can never be so. He was a follower of the same root idea of parakiya-bhava as Rupa Gosvami. For some unqualified persons he has written in that other way, but the babajis of Vraja cannot reconcile this. They are ignorant persons. They became opposed to Srila Jiva Gosvami and took the side of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, even though in fact there isno dispute between Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura! . Whatever Jiva Gosvami wrote for the benefit of those unqualified followers is in the line of tattva-siddhanta, established philosophical truths. He wrote that, by tattva, the gopis are krsna-svakiya. ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami (Brahma Samhita) ["I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (Hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated withever-blissful spiritual rasa."] Nija-rupataya kalabhih. The gopis are Krsna's power. They cannot be parakiya in the eyes of tattva-siddhanta. They are the same as Krsna. They are the power of Krsna. They are also not the wives of any gopas, cowherd men, of Vrndavana. They are all beloved of Krsna, and they are not different from Him. Thus, bytattva, they are svakiya. (Sva means 'own' and kiya means sampatti, wealth.)This means they are of Krsna, Krsna’s own, and they are His power. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written in the line ofrasa-siddhanta or rasa-tattva. In rasa-tattva Yogamaya has arranged that both the gopis and Krsna think that the gopis are married to other gopas, and therefore they have a paramour relationship. If it were not like this, there would be no rasa at all. (Para means 'greatest', one's own greatest wealth, and it also means 'another', another's wealth. Therefore the meaning in both tattva-siddhanta and rasa-siddhanta is armoniously reconciled.) Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained all these things, especially in Ujjvala Nilamani, and also in his other books. The gopis are Krsna’s own, His power, but for rasa it is said that they are parakiya.What is parakiya? There are two principles: atma-rasa and para-rasa, or eka-rasa and aneka-rasa. Krsna is eka-rasa or atma rasa. He is one rasa. In other words He is the complete embodiment of rasa. He is atmarama and aptakama. He is always full and satisfied in Himself. He doesn’t need anything from anyone in order to be happy. The gopis are His own power. Sakti-saktimatayor-abheda. Sakti, the energy, and saktiman, the possessor of that energy or power, are both one. They are identical. However, although Krsna has this quality, He is also para-rasa. Para-rasa means that the gopis are vaishisteya; that is, they also have a speciality that distinguishes them from Krsna. Although they are part of Krsna, although they are one with Him, their speciality is that they serve Him in the mood of rasa. Krsna is the enjoyer and they are the container or reservoir of love and affection. Krsna also wants to taste their mood.Aneka-rasa or para-rasa is the gopis' rasa, and Krsna wants to taste that rasa in various ways. That rasa is in the form of parakiya rasa, and this is the meaning of parakiya rasa -- nothing else. These are a very high-class of philosophical understandings, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all these truths. Therefore, Jiva Gosvami is not of a different opinion than Rupa Gosvami. They have the very same opinion. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has proven that Jiva Gosvami was in parakiya-bhava, and that he accepted Srimad Bhagavatam and Ujjvala-nilamani. [in his own Ujjvala-nilamani tika, Srila Jiva Gosvami has written,"Svecchaya likitam kincit, atra kincid parecchaya. I have written some things by my own desire and some things by the desire of others. The portions which are consistent, in which svakiya and parakiya are reconciled and in the line of Rupa Gosvami, is my desire, and the portions that are not reconciled are written by the desire of others." Srila Narayan Maharaj So , now I'm mildly interested in what conclusion your article will come to and if you agree or disagree with my siska guru concerning Srila Jiva Gosvami's ultimate position on rasa, since you seem to be pointing to his other writing and not only Gopala campu. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-08-2001).]
  15. I ask you to decide whether I am, as he would have it, the Devil's shepherd looking to mislead the innocent sheep who frequent these dangerous pastures, or an individual who is simply acting according to his nature and sharing his own discoveries with brothers and sisters who have trod the same paths as I. jagat By your own words jagat. Readers should most certainly make the decision to hear from you or not, as they see fit. The nature of self deception is that it is just that. I'm firmly convinced you believe you are helping somebody by your efforts. However Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has written: "Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls.They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krishna". Every reader of Thakur Bhaktivinode's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to ourmundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of ThakurBhaktivinode and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krishna by the process conveyed by the words. It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase. There are not a few dupes of their empiric Scriptural erudition. These dupes have their admiring under-dupes. But the mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course inaccordance with the suggestions of our lower selves. What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6 Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami explains in his Manah-siksa that Pratistha (desire for prestige) fails to acknowledge itself. Forgive me for invading your space in cyber world. However sometimes your thesis begs an antithesis which anyone is certainly capable of accepting or rejecting as they see fit. Our main point of disagreement is and shall always be it appears: Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Kindly post the rest of your article without any further interference from me. If I see any salient points that I believe our acaryas take exception to I may comment at the end. Interruption is rude but the format of these forums allows no other way to make any point. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-08-2001).]
  16. In all the vnn or indiadivine posts I have ever read from you jagat, I've never seen any substantial evidence from anywhere that suficiently invalidates the written words of our acaryas. Interesting to see you try to use Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura to justify your own position. You beleive in his essay he refers to your realization or that of more qualified sadhakas? I can find many other remarks by the Thakura and by his son and disciple that can bolster my point of view as well. Unwillingness to accept information from you and your dubious sources is not being closed minded but discriminating. That is all. In SB we can read: TEXT 26 TEXT yasya saksad bhagavati jnana-dipa-prade gurau martyasad-dhih srutam tasya sarvam kunjara-saucavat SYNONYMS yasya--one who; saksat--directly; bhagavati--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; jnana-dipa-prade--who enlightens with the torch of knowledge; gurau--unto the spiritual master; martya-asat-dhih--considers the spiritual master to be like an ordinary human being and maintains such an unfavorable attitude; srutam--Vedic knowledge; tasya--for him; sarvam--everything; kunjara-sauca-vat--like the bath of an elephant in a lake. TRANSLATION The spiritual master should be considered to be directly the Supreme Lord because he gives transcendental knowledge for enlightenment. Consequently, for one who maintains the material conception that the spiritual master is an ordinary human being, everything is frustrated. His enlightenment and his Vedic studies and knowledge are like the bathing of an elephant. PURPORT It is recommended that one honor the spiritual master as being on an equal status with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Saksad dharitvena samasta-sastraih. This is enjoined in every scripture. Acaryam mam vijaniyat. One should consider the acarya to be as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In spite of all these instructions, if one considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being, one is doomed. His study of the Vedas and his austerities and penances for enlightenment are all useless, like the bathing of an elephant. An elephant bathes in a lake quite thoroughly, but as soon as it comes on the shore it takes some dust from the ground and strews it over its body. Thus there is no meaning to the elephant's bath. One may argue by saying that since the spiritual master's relatives and the men of his neighborhood consider him an ordinary human being, what is the fault on the part of the disciple who considers the spiritual master an ordinary human being? This will be answered in the next verse, but the injunction is that the spiritual master should never be considered an ordinary man. One should strictly adhere to the instructions of the spiritual master, for if he is pleased, certainly the Supreme Personality of Godhead is pleased. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto 'pi. TEXT 27 TEXT esa vai bhagavan saksat pradhana-purusesvarah yogesvarair vimrgyanghrir loko yam manyate naram SYNONYMS esah--this; vai--indeed; bhagavan--Supreme Personality of Godhead; saksat--directly; pradhana--the chief cause of the material nature; purusa--of all living entities or of the purusavatara, Lord Visnu; isvarah--the supreme controller; yoga-isvaraih--by great saintly persons, yogis; vimrgya-anghrih--Lord Krsna's lotus feet, which are sought; lokah--people in general; yam--Him; manyate--consider; naram--a human being. TRANSLATION The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, is the master of all other living entities and of the material nature. His lotus feet are sought and worshiped by great saintly persons like Vyasa. Nonetheless, there are fools who consider Lord Krsna an ordinary human being. PURPORT The example of Lord Krsna's being the Supreme Personality of Godhead is appropriate in regard to understanding the spiritual master. The spiritual master is called sevaka-bhagavan, the servitor Personality of Godhead, and Krsna is called sevya-bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is to be worshiped. The spiritual master is the worshiper God, whereas the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is the worshipable God. This is the difference between the spiritual master and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Another point: Bhagavad-gita, which constitutes the instructions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is presented by the spiritual master as it is, without deviation. Therefore the Absolute Truth is present in the spiritual master. As clearly stated in Text 26, jnana-dipa-prade. The Supreme Personality of Godhead gives real knowledge to the entire world, and the spiritual master, as the representative of the Supreme Godhead, carries the message throughout the world. Therefore, on the absolute platform, there is no difference between the spiritual master and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If someone considers the Supreme Personality--Krsna or Lord Ramacandra--to be an ordinary human being, this does not mean that the Lord becomes an ordinary human being. Similarly, if the family members of the spiritual master, who is the bona fide representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being, this does not mean that he becomes an ordinary human being. The spiritual master is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore one who is very serious about spiritual advancement must regard the spiritual master in this way. Even a slight deviation from this understanding can create disaster in the disciple's Vedic studies and austerities. SB 7.15.26-27 HDGACBSP It's neither a matter of arguement or narrow mindedness, but a matter of love and trust. We simply love and trust our guru varga and have distrust and not much love for you since you have rejected them. Krsna chose to reside with the Vidura rather than stay in Sisupala's Palace. He would not even eat the meal offered to him by Duryodhana. He could not accept the grand feast of the envious Kaurava, however opulent because in his heart he harbored ill will toward the Pandavas, who Krsna said "were his heart." Similarly anything you want to present is always tainted by your rejection and lack of love and trust of our guru varga. If that is close mindedness by your estimation I am not really concerned. You relish too well, opportunities to lable sraddha something else, and I'm sure there is some audience for your internet performances, and feeble attempts at self pity and recromancy. Saran wrap yet again. I posted Srila Naryan Maharaj's remarks so they can be taken as they are without your slant on them. I am satisfied with what he has said and you are not.
  17. I would hardly call Srila Narayana Maharaj's remarks to his discples in Holland "going to war." Here they are so you can read them yourself and make your own evalution if you need to. [harikatha] Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis Sat, 07 Jul 2001 23:23:02 +0800 harikatha@ Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis I want to explain something so that you will be very careful. I am receiving questions about the books published by the babajis of Vraja. They accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Conjugal. They have not written their own books. They only take books like Stava-mala by Srila Rupa Gosvami, Stavavali and Vilapa Kusumanjali by Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi by Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati, and other Gosvami books. They have taken our Gosvamis' explanations, which are in Sanskrit, and they are simply translating them into Bengali. Everything seems to be okay. However, you should know what are the defects of these babajis, and you should be very careful. You should carefully note down their defects in your hearts and your notebooks. First of all they don't accept that the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya is one of the sakhas, branches, of the Brahma-Madhva Sampradaya, although this fact has been clearly explained by Sri Kavi Karnipura, Srila Jiva Gosvami, and then by Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu. It has also been explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, by my Gurudeva, that is, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. Secondly, they think that Sri Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati are the same person, although there is so much difference between them. This cannot be so. Will a person of the Ramanuja Sampradaya go down to become a Mayavadi like Prakasananda Sarasvati, and then again become Prabhodananda Sarasvati, who was so exalted that he became the guru of Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami? This idea is absurd. Prabhodananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were contemporaries. Will the same person go back and forth, being a Vaisnava in South India, then becoming a Mayavadi, again becoming a Vaisnava in Vrndavana, and again becoming a Mayavadi? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has vividly written about this, and great historians and research scholars have also rejected the idea that they are the same person. Thirdly, they don’t give proper honor to Sri Jiva Gosvami, and this is a very big blunder. This is a vital point. They say that Jiva Gosvami is of svakiya-bhava, that he never supported parakiya-bhava, and that he is against parakiya-bhava. They say that in his explanations of Srimad Bhagavatam and Brahma-samhita, in his own books like Gopala Campu, and especially in his Sri Ujjvala-nilamani tika, he has written against parakiya-bhava. This is their greatest blunder. We don’t accept their statements at all. Srila Jiva Gosvami was rupanuga, a pure follower of Srila Rupa Gosvami and Sri Rupa Manjari. However, for some devotees who were not very qualified at that time, who were beginners, and who did not know what is parakiya-bhava -- and even in Vraja there are so many like this -- he seemed to favor svakiya-bhava. For some followers, so that they would be able to come at least to vidhi-marga (worship according to the rules and regulations of Narada-pancaratra), Jiva Gosvami wrote as if he was a supporter of svakiya-rasa. He wanted that through this they should become qualified, and then they should come to the mood of parakiya. For qualified persons he has written that parakiya-bhava is in Vraja and svakiya-bhava is in Dvaraka. He has vividly written this, and he also accepted this. He can never be against the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He can never be so. He was a follower of the same root idea of parakiya-bhava as Rupa Gosvami. For some unqualified persons he has written in that other way, but the babajis of Vraja cannot reconcile this. They are ignorant persons. They became opposed to Srila Jiva Gosvami and took the side of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, even though in fact there is no dispute between Jiva Gosvami and Vi svanatha Cakravarti Thakura! . Whatever Jiva Gosvami wrote for the benefit of those unqualified followers is in the line of tattva-siddhanta, established philosophical truths. He wrote that, by tattva, the gopis are krsna-svakiya. ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis tabhir ya eva nija-rupataya kalabhih goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami (Brahma Samhita) ["I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency (Hladini). Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa."] Nija-rupataya kalabhih. The gopis are Krsna's power. They cannot be parakiya in the eyes of tattva-siddhanta. They are the same as Krsna. They are the power of Krsna. They are also not the wives of any gopas, cowherd men, of Vrndavana. They are all beloved of Krsna, and they are not different from Him. Thus, by tattva, they are svakiya. (Sva means 'own' and kiya means sampatti, wealth.) This means they are of Krsna, Krsna’s own, and they are His power. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written in the line of rasa-siddhanta or rasa-tattva. In rasa-tattva Yogamaya has arranged that both the gopis and Krsna think that the gopis are married to other gopas, and therefore they have a paramour relationship. If it were not like this, there would be no rasa at all. (Para means 'greatest', one's own greatest wealth, and it also means 'another', another's wealth. Therefore the meaning in both tattva-siddhanta and rasa-siddhanta is harmoniously reconciled.) Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained all these things, especially in Ujjvala Nilamani, and also in his other books. The gopis are Krsna’s own, His power, but for rasa it is said that they are parakiya. What is parakiya? There are two principles: atma-rasa and para-rasa, or eka-rasa and aneka-rasa. Krsna is eka-rasa or atma rasa. He is one rasa. In other words He is the complete embodiment of rasa. He is atmarama and aptakama. He is always full and satisfied in Himself. He doesn’t need anything from anyone in order to be happy. The gopis are His own power. Sakti-saktimatayor-abheda. Sakti, the energy, and saktiman, the possessor of that energy or power, are both one. They are identical. However, although Krsna has this quality, He is also para-rasa. Para-rasa means that the gopis are vaishisteya; that is, they also have a speciality that distinguishes them from Krsna. Although they are part of Krsna, although they are one with Him, their speciality is that they serve Him in the mood of rasa. Krsna is the enjoyer and they are the container or reservoir of love and affection. Krsna also wants to taste their mood. Aneka-rasa or para-rasa is the gopis' rasa, and Krsna wants to ta ste that rasa in various wa! ys. That rasa is in the form of parakiya rasa, and this is the meaning of parakiya rasa -- nothing else. These are a very high-class of philosophical understandings, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all these truths. Therefore, Jiva Gosvami is not of a different opinion than Rupa Gosvami. They have the very same opinion. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has proven that Jiva Gosvami was in parakiya-bhava, and that he accepted Srimad Bhagavatam and Ujjvala-nilamani. [in his own Ujjvala-nilamani tika, Srila Jiva Gosvami has written, "Svecchaya likitam kincit, atra kincid parecchaya. I have written some things by my own desire and some things by the desire of others. The portions which are consistent, in which svakiya and parakiya are reconciled and in the line of Rupa Gosvami, is my desire, and the portions that are not reconciled are written by the desire of others." I have written about all these topics in my book called Prabandha Pancakam, Five Essential Essays. You should try to know these things fully. The babajis say that we are not a branch of the line of Madhvacarya. They say Madhvacarya is of a different opinion than the Gaudiya Vaisnavas. But this is quite wrong. We have so many specialties that are there in the line of Madhvacarya. Also, they say that because Caitanya Mahaprabhu took sannyasa from Kesava Bharati, a Mayavadi, He, Himself, must be a Mayavadi. We don’t accept this. Mahaprabhu's actual guru was Isvara Puripada, He only took vesa, red cloth, from Kesava Bharati, and there is no harm in this. Madhvacarya also did this, and Ramanujacarya as well. [Another point is as follows. Sri Madhvacarya accepted sannyasa from Acyutapreksa, who was also a kevaladvaita-vadi. Suppose we accept the opinion of the opposing party, just for the sake of argument. In that case, if Mahaprabhu is a kevaladvaita-vadi sannyasa, then by the same logic so is Madhvacarya. Where, then, is the obstacle to Sriman Mahaprabhuji’s being in the Madhva Sampradaya, if both of them accepted the advaita-vadi Sankara’s sampradaya? There is a second point here. Sri Madhvacarya accepted eka-danda (a single staff of renunciation) according to the customs and regulations of the Sankara Sampradaya. It would be logically consistent to say that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu fol! lowed his ideal example, and also accepted eka danda-sannyasa from a sannyasi of the Sankara Sampradaya, namely Sri Kesava Bharati. From this it seems clear that Gaudiya Vaisnavas are in the line of Sri Madhvacarya.(from Five Essential Essays)] Sannyasa can be taken in this way. [During the time of Lord Caitanya, the influence of Sankaracarya in society was very strong. People thought that one could accept sannyasa only in the disciplic succession of Sankaracarya. Lord Caitanya could have performed His missionary activities as a householder, but He found householder life an obstruction to His mission. Therefore He decided to accept the renounced order, sannyasa. Since His acceptance of sannyasa was also designed to attract public attention, Lord Caitanya, not wishing to disturb the social convention, took the renounced order of life from a sannyasi in the disciplic succession of Sankaracarya, although sannyasa was also sanctioned in the Vaisnava sampradaya.(Cc. Adi-lila 3.34 purp.)] However, Mahaprabhu took gopal-mantra and other mantras from Isvara Puripada. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Rupa Gosvami, and Srila Jiva Gosvami have accepted this -- that Caitanya Mahaprabhu was not a Mayavadi. Madhavendra Puripada also took sannyasa from a Mayavadi, but he took diksa initiation in the line of Madhva, and Laksmipati Tirtha was his guru. We are thus in one line. There is some little difference in upasana-marga, but by tattva we are both the same. Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu has written about this very vividly, and the opinion of Kavi-karnapura is also that we are in the Madhva Sampradaya. He wrote a sloka about this. Another point is that the babajis don’t accept that Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana is in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line. They are vehemently opposed to this understanding. However, if Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu is out of our Gaudiya Sampradaya, then who is our savior? He went to Galta Gaddi in Jaipura and defeated the Sri Vaisnavas. He told them that Srimati Radhika should be on the left of Krsna. He wrote a commentary on Vedanta Sutra called Govinda-bhasya, and that commentary has been accepted as the Gaudiya-bhasya (commentary representing the Gaudiya Sampradaya). [As far as we in the Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya are concerned, our acaryas accepted Srimad-Bhagavatam as the natural commentary on Brahma-sutra. The Gaudiya Sampradaya did not make any commentary on the Brahma-sutra because they accepted, and Caitanya Mahäprabhu accepted, that Srimad-Bhagavatam is the natural commentary because it was also written by Vyasadeva, the original author of Brahma-sutra. If the author has made his own commentary, there was no need of another. This is the Gaudiya-vaisnava-siddhanta. Sometime back, however, in Jaipur, there was a challenge that the Gaudiya Sampradaya has no commentary on the Vedanta-sutra. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was requested to go there, because he was the most senior Vaisnava scholar. He was living in Vrndavana at that time, and because he was very advanced in age at that time, he authorized Baladeva Vidyabhusana, "You do it. There is no need, but people are demanding, 'Where is your commentary on the Vedanta-sutra?'" Therefore, by th e dictation of Govindaji at! Jaipur, Baladeva Vidyabhusana, wrote the commentary on Brahma-sutra called Govinda-bhasya. In this way, the Brahma-Madhva- Gaudiya Sampradaya has also got a commentary on Brahma-sutra, and that is required. (from Srila Prabhupada's lecture on Sept.30, 1973)] If Baladeva Vidyabhusana Prabhu is not in our sampradaya, then what sampradaya is He in? All his commentaries are in the line of Srila Rupa Gosvami and our Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas. If Baladeva Prabhu is out of our sampradaya, everything will be finished. This is a vital point. Also, these babajis say that if anyone wears the saffron cloth of sannyasa, he is not in the Gaudiya Vaisnava line. They have no correct idea. It is stated in Caitanya Caritamrta: kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya ["It does not matter whether a person is a vipra (learned scholar in Vedic wisdom) or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life. If he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master." (Madhya-lila 8-128)] Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami has written 'kiba nyasi'. Nyasi means sannyasi. Isvara Puripada, Madhavendra Puripada, and all renunciates in their line were sannyasis in saffron cloth. There are so many associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu who wore saffron cloth. Svarupa Damodara also wore saffron cloth. What harm was there? Saffron cloth is the sign of renunciation. It is the color of anuraga, attachment for Krsna. Because it is a color, it is worn by sadhvis. Sadhvi means a married lady, a lady who is not a widow. 'Married' means having Krsna as one's beloved. We are not widows, but those who wear white cloths are widows. >From where has this word 'babaji' come in our line? From whom has it come? Isvara Puripada, Madhavendra Puripada, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu, and after Him, Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Srila Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, and Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. After them, Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Vrndavana dasa Thakura, and then Narottama dasa Thakura, Syamananda dasa, Srinivasa Acarya, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Where is the word babaji? Was anyone known as Babaji? From where did this word babaji come? The babajis have no reply. These Vaisnavas were all paramahamsa, not babaji. Sri Sanatana Gosvami did not wear saffron cloth because he had great honor for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's saffron or reddish cloth. He was thinking, "I cannot be like Him, I am not so high." Therefore, out of honor and reverence he wore white cloth, and he used to worship this saffron cloth. In Vraja, the Vrajabasis all used to call Sanatana Gosvami 'baba'. They called Sanatana Gosvami bara-baba, elder sadhu, and Rupa Gosvami chota-baba, younger sadhu. After them, others in their line took white cloth; but then, after the time of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, they deviated. Some, like Jagannatha dasa Babaji, Madhusudana dasa Babaji, and Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji, took this babaji name out of humility, and everyone used to call them that. [baba means sadhu or father, and ji is a suffix meaning respectable. These mukta-mahapurusas are paramahamsas, and they are also the eternal associates of Radha and Krsna. They are far above the conception of babaji or sannyasa (which is within the varnasrama system). For them to accept the nomenclature babaji, therefore, is their humility.] [After Sriman Mahaprabhu, His lila-parikaras (eternal pastime associates) such as the six Gosvamis, Sri Lokanatha and Bhugarbha, and later Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja, Sri Narottama Thakura, and Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura were naturally niskincana paramahamsa Vaisnavas. There was no need for them to wear sannyasa-vesa, saffron cloth. Secondly, Sriman Mahaprabhu had performed the lila of wearing sannyasa-vesa and saffron cloth. Thus considering themselves to be worthless, lowly and unqualified, these mahatmas did not wear sannyasa-vesa and saffron cloth in order to show honor and respect to the vesa of Sriman Mahaprabhu and also to maintain their own identities as servants under the shelter of His lotus feet. On the other hand, in order to express veneration for the niskincana paramahamsa-vesa of the associates of Sriman Mahaprabhu, and, under their guidance to preach His message throughout the entire world, many akincana Vaisnavas on the path of raganuga-bhajana, holding the parama hamsa-vesa upon their heads! , have accepted a position below their worshipable superiors by wearing the saffron cloth of the sannyasa asrama which is included within the system of varnasrama dharma. These two customs, each having their own place, are both exquisitely beautiful and also completely in accordance with siddhanta. Today suddha-hari-bhakti has been, is being, and will continue to be, preached and spread throughout the world by these mahapurusas, great perfected saints, who wear this second type of niskincana sannyasi-vesa. (from Five Essential Essays)] When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura saw that many babajis were now bogus, that they were with widow matajis and producing sons, he became very furious and said that we will again accept the same saffron cloth of others like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Mahaprabhu, and Isvara Puripada. He then preached everywhere in the world. At that time, those family persons who were of loose character and had no status in society honored these bogus babajis. That is why Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura re-introduced the reddish cloth and sannyasa. Presently, those who are bogus persons, but were previously in the Gaudiya Matha, have become lusty and have thus been kicked out from the Gaudiya Matha. Now they have become babajis. The babajis especially criticize Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, saying that he didn’t have a guru. This is a bogus idea. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura preached the name and the glories of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya to the whole world. He wrote hundreds of books. Still, the babajis say he did not have a proper guru, and that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada also had no proper guru. [A sadhaka may receive bheka (sannyasa vesa) from some suitable guru and alternatively, when genuine vairagya (in bhava-bhakti) arises, he may accept bheka from himself. Haridasa Thakura, the Six Gosvamis, Lokanatha Gosvami, and others are examples of the practice of accepting bheka from oneself. This is also the way that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura accepted sannyasa vesa after the disappearance of Srila Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji, from whom he had received the diksa mantra. We see from these examples that acceptance of bheka in this way is fully in agreeme nt with sastra. Sri Ramanuj! acarya also accepted tridandi-sannyasa from himself after the disappearance of his guru Srila Yamunacarya. (from Five Essential Essays)] You should know that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was in the Bhagavata-parampara of Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura was also in the line as the same Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and his guru, Srila Gaura Kisora Das Babaji Maharaja. They were all in the same line. Those in the babaji line say that our Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and even Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, were not in the proper disciplic line, and that they have no guru-parampara. But it is actually the babajis who are not in the guru-parampara. I saw in France that so many devotees have given up Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, and they have become babajis. They took babaji-vesa, dor-kaupin and so on. Then, after two years, they fell down with mataji-babajis. They accepted and lived with divorced ladies. They are bound to do this. Thus, those who are not accepting that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, our Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and all other high-class Vaisnavas are in the Gaudiya line, are completely ignorant. If you read their books this poison may come. avaisnava-mukhodgirnam putam hari-kathamrtam sravanam naiva kartavyam sarpocchistam yatha payah (Padma Purana) ["One should not hear anything about Krsna from a non-Vaisnava. Milk touched by the lips of a serpent has poisonous effects. Similarly, talks about Krsna given by a non-Vaisnava are also poisonous."] Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami's Vilapa Kusumanjali, and other books like Krsna Bhavanamrta, Radha-rasa-sudhanidhi, and Stava-vali are all good books. They are amrta, nectar. However, you should not hear them from non-Vaisnavas; otherwise the bogus ideas of such non-Vaisvnavas will come, and you will be deviated. Be very careful about this. Another point is regarding bhajana-pranali. Instead of giving the proper process to the appropriate persons, without giving proper training, without considering whether a person is qualified or not, these babajis give their own version of bhajana-pranali. Their so-called disciples do not know who is Krsna or what is bhajana. They don’t know any definition of bhakti, and they don’t even know how to clean themselves after passing stool. They don’t know anything. What will become of them? naitat samacarej jatu manasapi hy anisvaram vinasyaty acaran maudhyad yatharudro ’bdhi-jam visam ["One who is not a great controller should never imitate the behavior of ruling personalities, even mentally. If out of foolishness an ordinary person does imitate such behavior, he will simply destroy himself, just as a person who is not Rudra would destroy himself if he tried to drink an ocean of poison." (SB. 10.33.31)] If someone is not qualified, but he wants to drink poison as Sankara did, he will die at once. First be Sankara, and then take poison. First be qualified. First you should know Srila Rupa Gosvami’s Upadesamrta: vaco vegam manasa krodha vegam. Also read Manah Siksa. First learn tattva: maya-tattva, jiva-tattva, and krsna-tattva. Afterwards, if you have actual greed, then you can read those other books. Otherwise, if you don’t learn these principles first, you will be lusty, and you will be bound to deviate and give up bhajana and sadhana. We should read Jaiva Dharma. There, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained all the ideas of Srila Rupa Gosvami. First learn trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna / amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih. "One can chant the holy name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself lower than the straw in the street. One should be more tolerant than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and ready to offer all respects to others. ln such a state of mind one can chant the holy name of the Lord constantly." This was advised by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: ye-rupe la-ile nama prema upajaya tahara laksana suna, svarupa-rama-raya ["O Svarupa Damodara Gosvami and Ramananda Raya, hear from Me the symptoms of how one should chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra to awaken very easily one's dormant love for Krsna." (Antya 20.21)] Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself gave us the instruction to have these qualities. Try to develop these qualities, and then you can read the other books. There are so many devotees around the world, especially in France, who are reading all these elevated books. However, they don’t know krsna-tattva or any other tattva, and they have no nistha, steady and strong faith, in their gurudeva. Gradually they are giving up Srila Swami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and the entire guru-parampara. They criticize this line. Therefore, although the books which have been translated by these babajis are themselves bona fide, we should boycott them. Don’t read them. If you are qualified like a hamsa, a swan, if you can separate milk from water, then you may read their translations -- otherwise not. About ten years ago I went on Vraja Mandala Parikrama with Pujyapada Janardana Maharaja. We went to Radha-Kunda, and there we challenged the babajis. We had a discussion for three hours, but no one came. I have also challenged those babajis in my book, Five Essential Essays, but no one responded. After reading that book they wanted to take us to court, and I challenged them, "Yes, we will see you in court." But they never came. Their lawyers had advised them not to go to court, as they would have lost everything. Don’t be attracted to these sahajiya babajis of Vraja. You should be attracted to our guru-parampara: Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Jiva Gosvami, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and all those in our Bhagavata-parampara. I have come to tell you these things only to make you all careful. Don’t be bewildered. Try to be very strong, knowing all these points. (typed by Madana Mohini dasi, edited by Syamarani dasi) To read this lecture in spanish to harikatha-e@ by sending a blank email to harikatha-e-@ Please send all billboard queries to bvnmbillboard@
  18. Not surprised to see that you still believe you know more than your former diksa guru and the predecessor acaryas in his line. Be as sarcastic as you like.I don't have any information if SBSST and SBT were aware of the book you mention. What makes you so convinced it is more authentic than the historical references they alude to? Because you will look for anything that validates your own rejection of our guru varga wherever you can find it. Give it a rest jagat. We don't accept your position and never will, and you won't accept ours. Finished. No discussion, no exchange, only mutual upeksa is called for.
  19. jagat wrote: For instance, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and BHaktivinoda Thakur made many statements about Vaishnava history, for instance, the identity of Prabodhananda Saraswati. They come to a particular conclusion that is shown very clearly by historical evidence to be erroneous. Are we allowed to examine the evidence and come to our own conclusions? If you place more stock in such "evidence" and see fit to accept it instead of what two or possibly three of acaryas have said then it is your evaluation of history compared to theirs, is it not? As you wish. Intrigued by his remark I have found these references to Prabodhananda Saraswati and his identity as explained by my spiritual master in several Cc. purports. . . . Yet Srimat Prabodhananda Sarasvati writes in his Caitanya-candramrta. . . Cc. Adi 7. 27 purport TEXT 149 TEXT sei haite sannyasira phiri gela mana 'krsna' 'krsna' nama sada karaye grahana SYNONYMS sei haite--from that time; sannyasira--all the Mayavadi sannyasis; phiri--turn; gela--became; mana--mind; krsna krsna--the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna; nama--name; sada--always; karaye--do; grahana--accept. TRANSLATION From that moment when the Mayavadi sannyasis heard the explanation of the Vedanta-sutra from the Lord, their minds changed, and on the instruction of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too chanted "Krsna! Krsna!" always. PURPORT In this connection it may be mentioned that sometimes the sahajiya class of devotees opine that Prakasananda Sarasvati and Prabodhananda Sarasvati are the same man. Prabodhananda Sarasvati was a great Vaisnava devotee of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, but Prakasananda Sarasvati, the head of the Mayavadi sannyasis in Benares, was a different person. Prabodhananda Sarasvati belonged to the Ramanuja-sampradaya, whereas Prakasananda Sarasvati belonged to the Sankaracarya-sampradaya. Prabodhananda Sarasvati wrote a number of books, among which are the Caitanya-candramrta, Radha-rasa-sudha-nidhi, Sangita-madhava, Vrndavana-sataka and Navadvipa-sataka. While traveling in southern India, Caitanya Mahaprabhu met Prabodhananda Sarasvati, who had two brothers, Venkata Bhatta and Tirumalaya Bhatta, who were Vaisnavas of the Ramanuja-sampradaya. Gopala Bhatta Gosvami was the nephew of Prabodhananda Sarasvati. From historical records it is found that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu traveled in South India in the year 1433 sakabda (A.D. 1511) during the Caturmasya period, and it was at that time that He met Prabodhananda, who belonged to the Ramanuja-sampradaya. How then could the same person meet Him as a member of the Sankara-sampradaya in 1435 sakabda, two years later? It is to be concluded that the guess of the sahijiya-sampradaya that Prabodhananda Sarasvati and Prakasananda Sarasvati were the same man is a mistaken idea. CC. Adi 7. 149 TEXT 105 TEXT sri-gopala bhatta eka sakha sarvottama rupa-sanatana-sange yanra prema-alapana SYNONYMS sri-gopala bhatta--of the name Sri Gopala Bhatta; eka--one; sakha--branch; sarva-uttama--very exalted; rupa--of the name Rupa; sanatana--of the name Sanatana; sange--company; yanra--whose; prema--love of Godhead; alapana--discussion. TRANSLATION Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, the forty-seventh branch, was one of the great and exalted branches of the tree. He always engaged in discourses about love of Godhead in the company of Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami. PURPORT Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami was the son of Venkata Bhatta, a resident of Srirangam. Gopala Bhatta formerly belonged to the disciplic succession of the Ramanuja-sampradaya but later became part of the Gaudiya-sampradaya. In the year 1433 sakabda (A.D. 1512), when Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu was touring South India, He stayed for four months during the period of Caturmasya at the house of Venkata Bhatta, who then got the opportunity to serve the Lord to his heart's content. Gopala Bhatta also got the opportunity to serve the Lord at this time. Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami was later initiated by his uncle, the great sannyasi Prabodhananda Sarasvati. Both the father and mother of Gopala Bhatta Gosvami were extremely fortunate, for they dedicated their entire lives to the service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They allowed Gopala Bhatta Gosvami to go to Vrndavana, and they gave up their lives thinking of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When Lord Caitanya was later informed that Gopala Bhatta Gosvami had gone to Vrndavana and met Sri Rupa and Sanatana Gosvami, He was very pleased, and He advised Sri Rupa and Sanatana to accept Gopala Bhatta Gosvami as their younger brother and take care of him. Sri Sanatana Gosvami, out of his great affection for Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, compiled the Vaisnava smrti named Hari-bhakti-vilasa and published it under his name. Under the instruction of Srila Rupa and Sanatana, Gopala Bhatta Gosvami installed one of the seven principal Deities of Vrndavana, the Radharamana Deity. The sevaits (priests) of the Radharamana temple belong to the Gaudiya-sampradaya. When Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami took permission from all the Vaisnavas before writing Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Gopala Bhatta Gosvami also gave him his blessings, but he requested him not to mention his name in the book. Therefore Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has mentioned Gopala Bhatta Gosvami only very cautiously in one or two passages of the Caitanya-caritamrta. Srila Jiva Gosvami has written in the beginning of his Tattva-sandarbha, "A devotee from southern India who was born of a brahmana family and was a very intimate friend of Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami has written a book that he has not compiled chronologically. Therefore I, a tiny living entity known as jiva, am trying to assort the events of the book chronologically, consulting the direction of great personalities like Madhvacarya, Sridhara Svami, Ramanujacarya and other senior Vaisnavas in the disciplic succession." In the beginning of the Bhagavat-sandarbha there are similar statements by Srila Jiva Gosvami. Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami compiled a book called Sat-kriya-sara-dipika, edited the Hari-bhakti-vilasa, wrote a forword to the Sat-sandarbha and a commentary on the Krsna-karnamrta, and installed the Radharamana Deity in Vrndavana. In the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika, verse 184, it is mentioned that his previous name in the pastimes of Lord Krsna was Ananga-manjari. Sometimes he is also said to have been an incarnation of Guna-manjari. Srinivasa Acarya and Gopinatha Pujari were two of his disciples. Cc. Adi lila 10.105 TEXT 1 TEXT kathancana smrte yasmin duskaram sukaram bhavet vismrte viparitam syat sri-caitanyam namami tam SYNONYMS kathancana--somehow or other; smrte--by remembering; yasmin--whom; duskaram--difficult things; sukaram--easy; bhavet--become; vismrte--by forgetting Him; viparitam--just the opposite; syat--become; sri-caitanyam--Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; namami--I offer my respectful obeisances; tam--unto Him. TRANSLATION Things that are very difficult to do become easy to execute if one somehow or other simply remembers Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. But if one does not remember Him, even easy things become very difficult. To this Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu I offer my respectful obeisances. PURPORT In his book Caitanya-candramrta Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati says: "One who receives a little favor from the Lord becomes so exalted that he does not care even for liberation, which is sought after by many great scholars and philosophers. Similarly, a devotee of Lord Caitanya considers residence in the heavenly planets a will-o'-the-wisp. He surpasses the perfection of mystic yoga power because for him the senses are like snakes with broken fangs." A snake is a very fearful and dangerous animal because of his poison fangs, but if these fangs are broken the appearance of a snake is no cause for fear. The yoga principles are meant to control the senses, but there is no scope for the senses of one engaged in the service of the Lord to be dangerous like snakes. These are the gifts of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa confirms that difficult things become easy to understand if one remembers Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and easy things become very difficult to understand if one forgets Him. We actually see that even those who are very great scientists in the eyes of the general public cannot understand the very simple idea that life comes from life because they do not have the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They defend the false understanding that life comes from matter, although they cannot prove that this is a fact. Modern civilization, therefore, progressing on the basis of this false scientific theory, is simply creating problems to be solved by the so-called scientists. The author of Caitanya-caritamrta takes shelter of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to describe the pastimes of His appearance as a child because one cannot write such transcendental literature by mental speculation. One who writes about the Supreme Personality of Godhead must be especially favored by the Lord. Simply by academic qualifications it is not possible to write such literature. Cc. Adi lila 14.1 TEXT 82 TEXT sri-vaisnava eka,----'vyenkata bhatta' nama prabhure nimantrana kaila kariya sammana SYNONYMS sri-vaisnava eka--a devotee belonging to the Ramanuja-sampradaya; vyenkata bhatta--Venkata Bhatta; nama--named; prabhure--unto Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu; nimantrana--invitation; kaila--did; kariya--offering; sammana--great respect. TRANSLATION One Vaisnava known as Venkata Bhatta then invited Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to his home with great respect. PURPORT Sri Venkata Bhatta was a Vaisnava brahmana and an inhabitant of Sri Ranga-ksetra. He belonged to the disciplic succession of Sri Ramanujacarya. Sri Ranga is one of the places of pilgrimage in the province of Tamil Nadus. The inhabitants of that province do not retain the name Venkata. It is therefore supposed that Venkata Bhatta did not belong to that province, although he may have been residing there for a very long time. Venkata Bhatta was in a branch of the Ramanuja-sampradaya known as Badagala-i. He had a brother in the Ramanuja-sampradaya known as Sripada Prabodhananda Sarasvati. The son of Venkata Bhatta was later known in the Gaudiya-sampradaya as Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, and he established the Radharamana temple in Vrndavana. More information about him may be found in a book known as Bhakti-ratnakara, by Narahari Cakravarti. Cc. Madhya lila 9..82 TEXT 177 TEXT bilvamangala kaila yaiche dasa apanara ihan dekhi' sei dasa ha-ila amara SYNONYMS bilvamangala--Bilvamangala; kaila--did; yaiche--as; dasa--condition; apanara--his own; ihan--here; dekhi'--I see; sei dasa--that condition; ha-ila--became; amara--mine. TRANSLATION "Bilvamangala Thakura abandoned his impersonal realization for the realization of the Personality of Godhead. I now see that my condition is similar to his, for it has already changed." PURPORT In his early life, Bilvamangala Thakura was an impersonalistic monist, and he used to meditate upon the impersonal Brahman effulgence. Later he became a devotee of Lord Krsna, and his explanation for this change is given in a verse (text 178) that is quoted in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Sometimes a devotee gradually comes to the stage of Bhagavan realization, realization of the Supreme Person, after having attained the lower stages of realization--impersonal Brahman realization and localized Paramatma realization. The condition of such a devotee is described in the Caitanya-candramrta (5) by Prabodhananda Sarasvati: kaivalyam narakayate tri-dasa-pur akasa-puspayate durdantendriya-kala-sarpa-patali protkhata-damstrayate visvam purna-sukhayate vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate yat-karunya-kataksa-vaibhavavatam tam gauram eva stumah Kaivalya, oneness in the effulgence of Brahman, appears hellish to the devotee. The heavenly planets, the abodes of the demigods, appear to a devotee like phantasmagoria. The yogis meditate for sense control, but for the devotee the senses appear like serpents with broken teeth. The devotee doesn't have to control his senses, for his senses are already engaged in the Lord's service. Consequently there is no possibility that the senses will act like serpents. In the material condition, the senses are as strong as poisonous snakes. But when the senses are engaged in the Lord's service, they are like poisonous snakes with their fangs removed, and so they are no longer dangerous. The entire world is a replica of Vaikuntha for the devotee because he has no anxiety. He sees that everything belongs to Krsna, and he does not want to enjoy anything for himself. He does not even aspire for the position of Lord Brahma or Indra. He simply wants to engage everything in the service of the Lord; therefore he has no problem. He stands in his original constitutional position. All this is possible when one receives Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's merciful glance. In the Caitanya-candramrta there are many more verses illustrating this same principle. dhik kurvanti ca brahma-yoga-vidusas tam gauracandram numah tavad brahma-katha vimukta-padavi tavan na tikti-bhavet tavac capi visrnkhalatvam ayate no loka-veda-sthitih tavac chastra-vidam mithah kala-kalo nana-bahir-vartmasu sri-caitanya-padambuja-priya-jano yavan na dig-gocarah gauras caurah sakalamaharat ko 'pi me tivra-viryah A discussion of the impersonal Brahman is not very palatable to a devotee. The so-called regulations of the sastras also appear null and void to him. There are many people who argue over the sastras, but for a devotee such discussions are but tumultuous roaring. By the influence of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, all these problems disappear. Cc. Madhya lila 10.177 TEXT 68 TEXT sei haite bhagyavan rajara nandana prabhu-bhakta-gana-madhye haila eka-jana SYNONYMS sei haite--from that day; bhagyavan--the most fortunate; rajara nandana--the son of the King; prabhu-bhakta-gana-madhye--among the intimate devotees of the Lord; haila--became; eka-jana--one of them. TRANSLATION From then on, the fortunate prince was one of the most intimate devotees of the Lord. PURPORT In this regard, Srila Prabodhananda Sarasvati writes: yat-karunya-kataksa-vaibhava-vatam. If Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu simply glanced at someone for a moment, that person immediately turned into one of the most confidential devotees of the Lord. The prince came to see the Lord for the first time, but by the Lord's mercy the boy immediately became a topmost devotee. This was not in theory but in practice. We cannot apply the nagna-matrka-nyaya formula. This states that if one's mother was naked in her childhood, she should continue to remain naked, even though she has become a mother of so many children. If a person is actually blessed by the mercy of the Lord, he can immediately become a topmost devotee of the Lord. The logic of nagna-matrka states that if a person is not elevated on such and such a date, he cannot become an exalted devotee overnight, as it were. This particular instance offers evidence to contradict that theory. On the previous day, the boy was simply an ordinary prince, and the next day he was counted as one of the topmost devotees of the Lord. This was all made possible by the causeless mercy of the Lord. The Lord is omnipotent, all-powerful and almighty, and He can act as He likes. C. Madhya lila 12.68 ******************* Not only are you ready to believe Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's realizations and some of his writings are questionable, but that he and his followers also distort history. Krsna has given you plenty of "historical evidence" so you can feel comfortable with your position. Forgive me if I have the tendancy to doubt you and trust others in such matters. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-06-2001).]
  20. WE cetainly have. And I have no intention of re hashing it yet again. We come from different states of heart. That is all. No prabhu, we don't come to the same conclusion at all. I agree that there may be some editing mistakes in some of the books, and that Srila Prabhupada never boasted of being a sankskrit scholar, but his motive and the motives of Srila Bhaktivinoda are unquestionably crystal clear and infallable from our perspective. His Divine Grace writes in his preface to SB: "Srimad-Bhagavatam is the transcendental science not only for knowing the ultimate source of everything but also for knowing our relation with Him and our duty toward perfection of the human society on the basis of this perfect knowledge. It is powerful reading matter in the Sanskrit language, and it is now rendered into English elaborately so that simply by a careful reading one will know God perfectly well, so much so that the reader will be sufficiently educated to defend himself from the onslaught of atheists. Over and above this, the reader will be able to convert others to accepting God as a concrete principle. Srimad-Bhagavatam begins with the definition of the ultimate source. It is a bona fide commentary on the Vedanta-sutra by the same author, Srila Vyasadeva, and gradually it develops into nine cantos up to the highest state of God realization. The only qualification one needs to study this great book of transcendental knowledge is to proceed step by step cautiously and not jump forward haphazardly like with an ordinary book. It should be gone through chapter by chapter, one after another. The reading matter is so arranged with its original Sanskrit text, its English transliteration, synonyms, translation and purports so that one is sure to become a God-realized soul at the end of finishing the first nine cantos. The Tenth Canto is distinct from the first nine cantos because it deals directly with the transcendental activities of the Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna. One will be unable to capture the effects of the Tenth Canto without going through the first nine cantos. The book is complete in twelve cantos, each independent, but it is good for all to read them in small installments one after another. I must admit my frailties in presenting Srimad-Bhagavatam, but still I am hopeful of its good reception by the thinkers and leaders of society on the strength of the following statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.5.11): tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavo yasmin prati-slokam abaddhavaty api namany anantasya yaso 'nkitani yac chrnvanti gayanti grnanti sadhavah "On the other hand, that literature which is full with descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, form and pastimes of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a transcendental creation meant to bring about a revolution in the impious life of a misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though irregularly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." Om tat sat A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Dated at Delhi December 15, 1962 Even in face of apparant "fallable errors" by your estimation we do not consider our acarys to be bhadda jivas who make ordinary mistakes by the influence of material illusion or imperfect sense perception. SBSST has remarked: Absolute Knowledge is capable of revealing all the potency of the Divinity. Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piece-meal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the Truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest. . . These plain words need not be misrepresented, by arrogant persons who are full of the vanity of empiric ignorance, as the pronouncements of aggressive sectarianism. The aggressive pronouncement of the concrete Truth is the crying necessity of the moment for silencing the aggressive propaganda of specific untruths that is being carried on all over the world by the preachers of empiric contrivances for the amelioration of the hard lot of conditioned souls. The empiric propaganda clothes itself in the language of negative abstraction for deluding those who are engrossed in the selfish pursuit of worldly enjoyment. . . .In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the Name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakur Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the Realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by a deceptive bye-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakur Bhaktivinode is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute. and as far as "mistakes are concerned he observes: Thakur Bhaktivinode did not want us to go to the clever mechanical reciter of the mundane sound for obtaining access to the Transcendental Name of Krishna. Such a person may be fully equipped with all the written arguments in explanation of the nature of the Divine Name. But if we listen to all these arguments from the dead source the words will only increase our delusion. The very same words coming from the lips of the devotee will have the diametrically opposite effect. Our empiric judgment can never grasp the difference between the two performances. The devotee is always right. The non-devotee in the shape of the empiric pedant is always and necessarily wrong. In the one case there is always present the Substantive Truth and nothing but the Substantive Truth. In the other case there is present the apparent or misleading hypothesis and nothing but un-truth. The wording may have the same external appearance in both cases. The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and the non-devotee, may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures. We are trying to dedicate out life to their service and you have rejected them as your guides. We see them through the their love and affection and eternal connection to us and you do not. Plain and simple difference, and you can not minimize ior rationalize our conscious choice by your laukika estimations.
  21. The other point that I forgot to mention in preamble to any further discussion with shvu, is that we approach the writing of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura from the angle of vision of accepting him as a nitya siddha self realized acarya in our line. Therefore we consider his "opinion" a world of difference from that of a bhadda jiva. shvu may like to reduce the samadhi bhasya of a self realized Vaisnava as his "opinion" but we are not going to debate on this point. WE are also fully aware that jagat shares the same skepticism and sees some of the writing of Srila Bhaktivinoda from his scholastic perspective. He has expressed his doubts about the Thakura's motives and therefore suggests he was fallable,or untruthful, a point of view we don't share. Simply everyone can understand we approach the subject matter from a different attitude of love and affection for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and the preceptorial line that comes after him. Of course we don't expect shvu or jagat to be in "awe" of our acaryas,or agree with eveything they say. However we are hearing from them according to Krsna's direction in the Bg. 4.34, tad viddhi pranipaten sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam naninas tattva-darsinah Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth. PURPORT The path of spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult. The Lord therefore advises us to approach a bona fide spiritual master in the line of disciplic succession from the Lord Himself. No one can be a bona fide spiritual master without following this principle of disciplic succession. The Lord is the original spiritual master, and a person in the disciplic succession can convey the message of the Lord as it is to his disciple. No one can be spiritually realized by manufacturing his own process, as is the fashion of the foolish pretenders. The Bhagavatamsays: dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam--the path of religion is directly enunciated by the Lord. Therefore, mental speculation or dry arguments cannot help one progress in spiritual life. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master to receive the knowledge. Such a spiritual master should be accepted in full surrender, and one should serve the spiritual master like a menial servant, without false prestige. Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life. Inquiries and submission constitute the proper combination for spiritual understanding. Unless there is submission and service, inquiries from the learned spiritual master will not be effective. One must be able to pass the test of the spiritual master, and when he sees the genuine desire of the disciple, he automatically blesses the disciple with genuine spiritual understanding. In this verse, both blind following and absurd inquiries are condemned. One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect. HDGACBSP Bg. As It is 4.34 purport jagat's consistant efforts in doubting these works of Srila Bhaktivinoda or rejecting them outright is not suprising. He also casts doubt on the Thakura's estimation of the site of Mahaprabhu's appearance, but we also know that his realization was confirmed by his siksa gurudeva, Srila Jagannatha das babaji maharaj. Scholastic skepticism in the efficacy of our preceptorial line and its acaryas has been seen on these forums before. Indeed it thrives here. Couched in polite language lack of faith in SBT is simply that. WE don't really think the Thakura is discredited by his style of writing in Sri Nabadwipa Mahatmya and are not that concerned if the dream sequences were offered as historical events or illustrative of philosophical conceptions conerning Nabadwipa dhama and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We trust the Thakura's motives and presentation and don't see him "cheating" in any way, despite the opinions of shvu or jagat. We are not ready to analyze Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's "honesty" as jagat is prone to do. He is always prone to try to slot our acaryas from his own angle of vision towards them. No surprise. Vydavyasa in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.18 along with our gurudeva's purport gives our angle of vision in such matters: TEXT 18 TEXT nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki SYNONYMS nasta--destroyed; prayesu--almost to nil; abhadresu--all that is inauspicious; nityam--regularly;bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam, or the pure devotee; sevaya--by serving; bhagavati--unto the Personality of Godhead; uttama--transcendental; sloke--prayers; bhaktih--loving service; bhavati--comes into being; naisthiki--irrevocable. TRANSLATION By regular attendance in classes on the Bhagavatam and by rendering of service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. PURPORT Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical. The devotee Bhagavata is a direct representative of Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead. So by pleasing the devotee Bhagavata one can receive the benefit of the book Bhagavata. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhagavata or the book Bhagavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. But actually these are facts explained by Srila Naradadeva, who happened to be a maidservant's son in his previous life. The maidservant was engaged in the menial service of the sages, and thus he also came into contact with them. And simply by associating with them and accepting the remnants of foodstuff left by the sages, the son of the maidservant got the chance to become the great devotee and personality Srila Naradadeva. These are the miraculous effects of the association of Bhagavatas. And to understand these effects practically, it should be noted that by such sincere association of the Bhagavatas one is sure to receive transcendental knowledge very easily, with the result that he becomes fixed in the devotional service of the Lord. The more progress is made in devotional service under the guidance of the Bhagavatas, the more one becomes fixed in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. The messages of the book Bhagavata, therefore, have to be received from the devotee Bhagavata, and the combination of these two Bhagavatas will help the neophyte devotee to make progress on and on. SB 1.1.18 translation and purport HDGACBSP shvu considers Srila Bhaktinovda Thakura on an equal level with anyone else who has an "opnion" but we consider him person bhagavata and this discussion only continues as long as all parties have some sensitivity or at least try to understand our perspective. jagat certainly has no discomfort second guessing Srila Bhaktivinoda's motives from his perspective also. Jagat will not hesitate to caste doubt on the validity of accepting the gaudiya acaryas from SBT to SBSST ,HDGACBSP,and others as absolute authorities. He is welcome to his point of view, which we do not share. We've seen this before also,and we have also seen jagat's estimations of those who he considers follow them blindly. Over intelligence never yields bhakti. I'll certainly discuss the matter of the Caitanya Upanisad and Nabadwipa Mahatmya with other senior vaisnavas and report back after dec. anything further they have to say about them. Therefore we caution the participants of this discussion to consider this sloka from the skanda purana: nindam kurvanti ye mudha vaisnavanam mahatmanam patanti potrbhih sardham maharaurava-samjnite hanti nindati vai dvesthi vaisnavan-nabhi-nandati krudhyate yati no harsam darsnae patanani sat "A fool who blasphemes Vaisnavas goes to the worst kind of hell along with generations of his ancestors. One who kills a devotee, as well as one who blasphemes devotees, or one who is envious of devotees, or who who fails to offer obeisances to Vaisnavas upon seeng htem, or one who becomes angered at a Vaisnava, or who does not become joyful upon seeing a Vaisnava--these six classes of men are al considred to be candidates for falling down into hell. (Skanda Purana) Sri Gaudiya Kantahara 17.81 It is one thing to have skepticism about something that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written because of one's different orientation toward the Vedas,or scholastic perspective, and quite another to commit aparadha at his lotus feet. Another of our acaryas, Srila Promode Puri Goswami has written: "THE ETYMOLOGICAL development of the word aparadha is radhat arthat aradhanat- apagatah, which means "to be distanced from worship." Offenses committed at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas, the Devotees, distance one from devotional service to the Supreme Lord. But in a higher sense it means to be removed from the service of Sri Radha. All divine service to Krishna is being conducted under her direction. To offend her servitors is to make one unfit for her divine service. The whole aim of Krishna consciousness is radha-dasyam, the divine service of Sri Radha, and offenses at the lotus feet of Vaishnavas make one unfit for such service. We have no intention of making personal derisive remarks about any of the followers of Madhvacarya who do not accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. However we do believe their position is atheistic,to some extent, on the basis of other statements by Sri Krsna in the Bg, because we are accepting Mahaprabhu as Svayam Bhagavan Himself. Krsna say in Bg. 9.11. I beleive even shvu will understand this point. avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam param bhavam ajananto mama bhuta-mahesvaram "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." PURPORT can be found here: http://www.asitis.com/9/11.html Lord Brahma is the founder of the Brahma Madva sampradaya, and Madhvacarya its leading acarya. We have no hesitation to also in future quote from Sri Brahma Samhita to offer some indications by Brahmaji of spiritual variegatedness. The validity of the 5 primary and 7 scondary rasa, fully elucidated in the books of Srila Rupa Gosvami, our rasacarya is the next discussion after Sri Krsna's glory is understood from Brahma-samhita. Then Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's position on chanting the Hare Krsna Maha mantra and his glorificaiton of Sri Caitnya Mahprabhu, the yuga avatara of this millenium will come closer to being understood by one and all,otherwise not [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-06-2001).] [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-06-2001).]
  22. Dear shvu, Thank you so much for yet again clarifying your position. I don't have very much time today, since I am preparing to leave for India soon, so this reply will have to be brief. I'll be happy to answer your specific points later. So you know, I am not part of current day iskcon, so I can't be responsible for what they do or don't do conerning the matha in Udupi and their reaction to philosophical controversies. I'm not surprised they (iskcon) were hard pressed to discuss such a topic in depth. I have no doubt your evaluation of their behavior has some merit. You will find that gaudiya vaisnavas who accept the principle of anugatya from a siksa guru will be more inclined to discuss such topics in depth. Suffice it for now to say that the philosophical position concerning Madhva and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu have been outlined to my satisfaction, if not yours, by Srila Bhakti Pranjan Kesava Maharaj in Gaudiya Patrika and Gaudiya Kantahara articles and summarized quite nicely, and now in English, by his disciple, Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj. As I have the time I'll reproduce those objections and refutations for all to read and we can make both of our positions in the matter more perfectly clear. Then you can assess for yourself if we accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's connection to Madhva blindly, without any thought or investigation or examination. The matter of His divinity is another topic that will require even more presentation as time permits. After that discussion is over then perhaps we shall find time to discuss Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and the gaudiya view of rasa, its history through time etc. and the different mantras that have come to us over the history of this millenium. A very large topic that can't be answered in one post or injudiciously. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-06-2001).]
  23. Because Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has observed something about Madhvacarya's internal mood, which you are not privy to does not make him incorrect. Your appreciation of Madhva is only surface. Your evaluation of "hypocrisy" is not valid at all. IN the same way you could calculate that Shankaracarya was a hypocrit for preaching mayavada, when he is actually an incarnation of Lord Siva. Lord Siva is always meditating on his worshipful Lord Sri Krsna. As Sankaracarya he was simply fulfilling the Supreme Lord's larger plan for kali yuga. We are told he instructed his followers on his depature, bhaja govinda, bhaja govinda bhaja govinda mudha mate? Was this hypocrisy? Why is Bhisma considered one of the twelve mahajanas when he fought against the Pandavas (the Supreme Lord's dear friends)? and did not speak out during the insult of Draupadi. Was he a hypocrit? No! he was privy to Svayam Bhagavan's desire for the battle of Kuruksetra to take place and acted accordingly. Was Kaikeyi, who was a pure devotee of Lord Rama, acting hypocritically when she demanded of Maharaj Dasaratha Rama's exile? No, she also was simply fulfilling Lord Rama's plan for manifesting his pastimes and simply acting on Rama's direct request of her. Yours evaluation of hypocrisy is simply a mundane calculation based on your historical perspective and lack of sraddha in who Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is. Your lack of appreciation for how rasa has developed throughout history by the presentations of so many different acaryas, culminating in the appearance of Sacanandana GourHari is also clear. I doubt you'll accept our examples as they come through our guru param para, but no matter. Hindu is a relatively meaningless term that only refers to those living near the Indus river, with a British mispronunciation of the word. Santana dharma makes more sense. I will check into the source of the Kantahara translations and get back. 3.12 is one of many slokas that was posted. We do not reject the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sri Caitanya Caritamrta and other literatures that you similarly see no value in. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not limited by your evaluations of Him. If He chose to inspire his devotees to preach according to time and circumstance for His larger plan to offer the world unnata ujvala rasa, we are not bewildered. The doctine of bhedabheda or dvaitadvaita which Nimbarka propounded is incomplete. It is in accepting the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu that the vaisnava world has attained the complete perfection of the doctrine of bhedabheda. The principle foundation -stone of acintya bhedabheda is sac-cid -ananda vigraha , and it is because Sri Madhva Acarya has accepted the sac-cid-ananda vigraha that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted the Sri Madhva Sampradaya. "There is a technical difference between the philosphical ideas which the previous Vaisnava acaryas have propagated because there are some slight incompleteness in those philosphical ideas. The difference in sampradaya is due to this technical difference. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is directly para-tattva, has shown compassion on the world and given His own thoroughly pure and realised doctrine of actinya-bhedabheda. By the power of His omnisceince, He has completed and made flawless all those opinions which were suffering from some deficiency, for example Madhva's sac-cid-ananda nitya vigraha, Ramanjua Acarya's sakti-siddhanta, Visnu-swami's suddhadvaita siddhanta and tadiya sarvasvatva and Nibarka's nitya dvaitadvaita siddhanta." (The Teachings of Sriman Mahaprabhu, p.110) Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj pp. 426-427 Acarya Kesari Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajna Kesava Gosvami/ His life and Teachings In this book SNM outlines 8 succinct objections and refutations concerning how the Sri Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradya is in the line of Sri Madhva. They can all be presented one by one for examination if anyone has any interest in our position, otherwise not. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-05-2001).]
  24. Not at all. Me thinks the essential point is that people that speak different languages and accept different authorities,axioms and devotional practices for understanding the true purport of the Vedas can't talk to each other and communicate effectively when such commnication admonishes those authorities so one party can satisfy his own agenda. Vitandi or jalpa discussions in the guise of a vada (search for truth) will not do. [This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 07-05-2001).]
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