Devarsirat

yeah yeah yeah and when someone writes something nice about HDG Bhaktivedanta Srila Narayana Maharaja, guruvani das spits poison. Its to much dublicity for me to bear. That happened at a different tread. Its like in the beginning when i asked someone from Srila Sridhar maharajas camp, a sanjasi, about Srila Narayana Maharaja, I got an email in return which was full of poison against Narayana Maharaja. I was so put off by that, that I went and found out by myself and I am glad I did. What these people dont understand is, that whatever differences there have been in the past, or even now should be obsolete instantly, like bubbles in a pond and I am sure that this is the case with all these great souls, unfortunately not always with their followers. All our spiritual masters teach what? dont criticise, one of the main things to follow in devotional life, but here they are, "my guru is better then your guru, your guru has done so and so and mine has not, your guru has said this and that, I have heard, that so ans so, he said she said, bla bla bla" Its like a kinder garden, its very clear to everyone, you talk very intelligently and write so many things "1800 posts from you guruvani", but no understanding about humility, you are posing as someone who is very humble and unworthy in the above post, but in a different post, which has been mercyfully closed by the moderator.... .....you are incredibly offensive against Srila Narayana Maharaja and all those who follow Him. You cant fool me guruvani das, i will tell you straight. Before you begin to offend HDG Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja and like to criticise Him, try going into the inner mood of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and ask yourself if He would approve of such neophite verbal rubbish against Srila Narayana Maharaja and His disciples and indeed against any other advanced vaisnava? would He? I know what He would tell you, if you disagree tell me, you think these great personalities would want this? He would want that you should offend other vaisnavas? I dont think so. This type of attitude is a complete nonsense. Srila Prabhupada would surely tell you where to go off. If anyone feels bad about Srila Narayana maharaja it is because they have been misinformed by taking direction and information from the wrong people, and if you belittle Srila Narayana Maharaja and His followers, you are sure going about the right way displeasing Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja. If you cant accept this statement, then I would become very concerned about my real attitude if I was you. I am sure that all of those who pick up these offenses, against other vaisnavas and take them to heart and freely echo those opinions without worry or concern for their future, havnt understood anything at all about what Sri Krishna says about those who offend His pure devotees. To all those disciples and wellwishers of Srila Narayana Maharaja who have read this Id like to say....dont be disturbed when someone offends your spiritual master, you become stronger instead. Either send a request to the moderator to put this person back in his place or reply back to them get straight to the point and dont take bs from anyone.

Okay if this is not your position, you are then from a different ritivik group, but i have read this somewhere. Anyway, when I read your so called truths about Srila Narayana Maharaja in the mag "back to Prabhupada" then I know that you are offending and do not accept any other pure devotee then Srila Prabhupada. Thats fine with me, but to begin and offend is uncalled for. Srila Prabhupada said "I can criticise my godbrothers, you cant" So there oh you strickt followers of Srila Prabhupada, why do you do this kind of thing? You are not following Srila Prabhupada, you can critice your own godbrothers, but this is where it should stop. Be a ritvik, thats fine with me, what do I know? like you I just have my own opinions based on the way I perceive the truth and it does not include reading tfo again, which did not convince me in the slightest, sorry. I rather base my understanding on what sastra says and it is true to say that such an importand subject like the future of Iskcon and first and second initiations and who will be the initiating guru of Iskcon for the next 10000 years.....would have been discussed by Srila Prabhupada extensively in His books for everyone to understand....... Such a mojor change to the system of the parampara would have become sastra and Srila Prabhupadas books are sastra it would be a major change to sastra and everything we have read in Srila Prabhupada about the ancient system of disciplic succession would have been influence by that major change, but it is not mentioned. Srila Prabhupada therefore has not changed anything He wrote in His will " The system is okay as it is , there is no need for any change" but the Iskcon gurus changed it by not completing their spiritual training and the ritvik devotees are changing the system of the parampara by proposing something that is not found in SPB Not one page in His books deals with changing the system into ritvik and that is where the whole ritvik idea falls apart for me. Everyone would have been clear about these things long time in advance, it is completely true to say that Srila Prabhupada would not have left this major change out of His divine books and just thought about this in the last moment, it is just to important.

I found this also, sometimes words are picked out as proof of something or to discredit and the rest of the scentence is left out, the reader reads what they want him to read. The whole scentence then tells a different story. The whole idea, that it is okay to lie and discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas, even if its true, just to further ones own agenda tastes bad and is unattractive.

All these sentiments that because a "guru" who could quit his job at any time is no real spiritual, are true, but the resultant so called logic that therefore there is no bonafied guru to be found anywhere, is redundant and totally illogical. Its against the principles of the parampara and also against our teachings because it would mean that the teachings do not work. Following and practicing this philosophy will make a person who does it properly in to a bonafied pure devotee. Anyone who says otherwise isn simply unintelligent. In Srila Rupa Gosvami's Sri Upadesamrta it says vaco vegam manasah krodha vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat (verse 1) ["A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled person." If Srila Prabhupada did not mean and had other ideas, this why did He write this? Why did He over and over stress "in His books" that one should have the association of advanced sadhus? Another rediculous idea is that such a person has to come from within Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada has created Iskcon yes that is true, but to say that only from Iskcon can such a person be bonafied is hillarious and may be the conception of a beginner devotee, not advanced devotees, who understand that devotees everywhere belong to the same family. We are all Iskcon The International Society For Krishna Consciousness, the terms Iskcon or Gaudya Math are just names given, but we are not different from each other. We are all brothers and sisters, not enemies, that should be clear. How can we ever preach successfully otherwise? There should be that much understanding that if a pure devotee has been identified somewhere by those who know the symptoms, then there is no harm to go and take instruction by those who are initiated and those who are not, to take initiation. If someone want to be ritivik initiation let him be, if that is what he wants... If another want to be initiated by an Iskcon guru okay... Another go to the Gaudya Math, why not? Our deep inner sincerity will lead us

Suchandra? the good ole german Suchandra? If yes I was in your bhakta program in 1976 in schloss rettershof. You are now a ritvik?

That may not being the answer. Have a job and all your probs go away? its not that easy. If you was someone inclined for Krishna Consciousness and not bound to anything i would say ....Tell me what is keeping you from becoming a full time devotee? you could go and distribute books and become very happy. if not that then what about seeing a genuine hypnotherapist who practices EFT and NLP or EMDR? they can sort you out to some extend and get you back on track. Just dont think that the future will be like the past, there is always a silver lining in the sky and you can plan your future now. Have you got any plans? No? then start making plans now.

Is our good old Iskcon preaching these things? From the GBC? Is that what is going round and preached in the classes? If yes then things have really degenerated.

If they do and feel all this, then that is not possible. I have never ever read that this is happening there and its a total speculation. The people who say that we are still in vaikuntha are dreaming an impossible dream. What is happening to them, how have they become so speculative? We never read about anything like this and yet they are propagating it and even make fun of those who understand the philosophy properly. So here they are in this world, thinking themselfes to be in Vaikuntha where no one can even have a bad dream. There is no maya so how can maya enter their dream? Forget it lads, wakey wakey!!

And how do you know He is not? As far as I know is that the one who is conducting the last rites for the departed Acarya He is the successor. I heard this, but I have no sastric reference for it. Maybe someone can elaborate on this? As far as the completion of scripture is concerned, I am sure that Srila Prabhupada could have written purports on any scripture. Its my opinion that one acarya will leave something to do for the next, thats His mercy. So many others before Him could have written any of these books but they left so much for the next acaryas, I dont see what the problem is? Someone wrote the following.... Narayana Maharaja has not studied the body of teachings of Srila Prabhupada and is in fact busy writing books of his own. Again another misleading statement, dontmake the mistake and think like this, it is all to easy to damage ones devotional creeper, even by just repeating someone elses offence and false propaganda. The mind gets to easily polluted by things. Srila Narayana Maharaja knows and fully understands all about what Srila Prabhupada wrote Everyone who has met Narayana Maharaja and being with him for a while, knows that He has an incredibly deep understanding about all of the topics Srila Prabhupada has touched. You think he has become a bhaktivedanta and is recognised by countless of Prabhupada disciples as a maha bhagavad devotee of The Lord for nothing? Narayana Maharaja is a pure devotee in our parampara and He knows everything, those who have seen and met Srila Prabhupada will be able to understand how high Narayana Maharaja is, (Iskcon leaders have met Him and only gave up His association after lots of pressure because they where treatend with loosing their positions, including their disciples.) Those who reject Him and spread false propaganda about Him commit spiritual suicide, how foolish can one be? There is nothing wrong with Him writing His own books, especially they do not conflict with anything Srila Prabhupada or any vaisnava author before has written . All great acaryas write books of their own, that is what they do, preach and write books. We need these books, no one would ever be able to finish writing about The Lord anyway, simply because He is unlimited, His pastimes are.... If someone would write millions of years and millions of books about Krishna, the nectar will never end.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Prakasa Rao Velagapudi, President Save Temples/Global Hindu Heritage Foundation 548 SilverStone Dr Madison, MS 39110 Phone: 601-856-4783 http://www.savetemp<WBR>les.org savetemples@<WBR>gmail.com A massive awareness campaign by over 400 people was held to protect Hindu Temples in India. Rosemont, IL- May 6, 2007 – A massive protest campaign organized by Save Temples forum was attended by about 500 Concerned people during the visit of Mr. Y S Rajasekhar Reddy, Chief Minister of the South Indian State of Andhra Pradesh. Mr. Reddy was at the Donald Stephens Convention Center to attend a Reception hosted by organizations TANA and ATA. People including many doctors, IT professionals, businessmen were protesting the policies of Mr. Reddy's Government which have been highly detrimental to the Hindu institutions including temples. The protest was held from 3:00 PM till 6:30 PM which included men, women and children of different nationalities from all around the country. Most of the concerned participants attended in response to the fliers and advertisements placed in various temples and various Indo-American newspapers. Many participants responded to the continuous bad news such as temple land scams, cancellation of Sri Rama Navami as Hindu Holiday and miuse of temple funds., Frustrated youth spontaneously arrange the protest and it was so overwhelming that it was beyond their expectations. Members of several organizations such as ISKCON, Christians against proselytism, Indian American intellectual forum, Vishwa Hindu Parishad also joined the protest. One of the protesters, Mr. Durga Prasad from Arizona, was on Fast without taking even water starting on Friday night till the protest was concluded. He provided tremendous inspiration to the fellow protesters. The protesters demanded repealing the Hindu Endowments Act, religious freedom for Hindus in practicing Hindu religion and management of Hindu institutions. The participants raised slogans such as 'Repeal Hindu Endowments Act', 'Hands off..... temples', '1-2-3.... keep temples free', Eadukondalavada Venkataramana Govinda Govinda etc. and sang devotional hymns. V. V. Prakasa Rao and Prasad Yalamanchi have been in constant contact with Dr. Gavva Chandra Reddy, the president of ATA and Dr. Bandla Hanumaiah, the president of TANA. They have been very cooperative with our request to meet the Chief Minister and also expressed their concern for the welfare of the Temples. At the request of Dr. Gavvaa, V. V. Prakasa Rao and Prasad Yelamanchi met with Hon. Chief Minister, Dr. Y. S. Rajasekhara Reddy in Hyatt Hotel in Chicago. They expressed concerns of all Hindus regarding the plight of the temples in Andhra Pradesh by saying that thousands of acres of Temple lands have been sold, Temples' revenues have been diverted to non-Hindu causes, numerous Temples have been demolished and hundreds of Temple lands have been allowed to be encroached. They mentioned that the Endowment Act should be repealed. Mr. Reddy mentioned about the recent amendment to the Endowment Act giving autonomy to about 30,000 temples with less than Rs 50,000 annual income and giving Rs 2500 for these Temples to support Dhup Deepa Naivedyam program; release of Shirdi Sai Baba temples to independent management trustees; and legislation to ban missionary activities near major temples. When the representatives mentioned that although the Hindu community was happy to read the news about these developments, they again requested the repeal of the Endowment Act. They mentioned that Hindu Temples should enjoy the same freedom and independence as other two major religions. Then they submitted a "Memorandum of Concerns to Hon. Y S Rajasekhara Reddy, Chief Minister, Andhra Pradesh" Mr. Reddy scanned through the memorandum, smiled and said, "Anything is possible," and that he would consider the demands. The protest was peaceful except for an incident involving a Christian Pastor. The reverend tried to choke one of the protesters (one Mr. Gandhi) unprovoked. The police handcuffed the Reverend and took him away. After the protest, many participants gathered in a conference hall at a nearby Hotel to share their experiences and plan future action. The speakers congratulated the participants and urged everyone to carry on the fight for Hindu Civil Rights. For information: http://savetemples.<WBR>org or Contact: savetemples@gmail.com Phone: 601-856-478

it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease. Srila Prabhupada

nice

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease. Srila Prabhupada We have always been with Krishna, thats alright, there was never a time when we have been seperated from Krishna, but this also does not tell me that we have had a personal realationship with Krishna as His direct servants in His Lila. " it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease. Srila Prabhupada " I think what Srila Prabhupada is saying is, that no matter what version we beliefe in, it has no influence on the successful outcome of our spiritual journey as long as we sincerily try to cure the material disease.

Too right, I think Ravindra Svarupa ones came up with all this nonsense, a couple of years back i read an article by him in a btg mag, same stuff, lots of philosophical specs, but no sastric references. At first i was taken in by it and i thought oh wow what a revelation, then i looked for quotes in the books and there where non. then i realised that sometimes ones mental speculations can look very real and can be mistaken for enlightenment. I think its mayas powerful display again, like someone may think they have become god. Srila Prabhupada says if you want to be cheated you find a perfect cheater. Remember that many of those who choose to exclusively rely on their own understanding of Srila Prabhupadas purports since He passed away, did not bother to find a genuine siksa guru. Srila Prabhupada also said shorthly b4 He left this planet, that "the training was not completed" correct me if this is not true. If the training was not complete and they became each a "HDG as good as god" then what can we expect? So now we have so many different fractions and understandings as the result. No further spiritual guidance and those who can give genuine spiritual guidance are shunned and discredited by those whose training was not complete and their followers.

Evangelisation or Satanism: Cause and effect PDF | Print | E-mail Thursday, 08 February 2007 source: Newstoday, February 7, 2007 V SUNDARAM The Congress government of Himachal Pradesh deserves the congratulations of the Hindus in majority in India for having passed a Legislation banning forced religious conversions. The Congress-led government in the State passed the legislation during its four-day winter session in the last week of December, 2006. Kaul Singh, Law Minister, Himachal Pradesh, said that 'according to the bill if someone was forced to change his religion without his consent then he could come back to his own religion within a month. Under the bill, persons who had forced or induced someone to change his/her religion, then he/she would be liable for punishment.' The Opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has also welcomed the Bill. Already five States ruled by the BJP or its allies have introduced such anti-conversion laws. They are meant to protect India's religious identity and to foster communal harmony. Under most of these new laws, anyone planning to leave the Hindu fold must obtain certificates and affidavits from courts to the effect that they are converting out of free will and not by inducements in cash or kind. It is reliably understood that an Indian-American Christian outfit in the United States has expressed concern over the new anti-conversion bill passed by Himachal Pradesh, alleging that it is aimed at harassing Christian workers in the Congress-ruled State. In a letter to Congress president Sonia Gandhi, the Federation of Indian American Christian Organisations sought help in stopping the bill passed by Himachal Pradesh in December 2006, saying the law will be used to harass and intimidate minorities. In that letter copies of which have been sent to President A P J Abdul Kalam and Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil, they have protested against the anti-conversion legislation and said: 'We cannot understand the basis of these anti-conversion bills/laws. 'As you mentioned on several occasions, particularly in your letter to Dr John Dayal of the All India Christian Council on 27 July, 2006, the Congress party was opposed to this divisive, hate-filled anti-religion strategy used by some bigoted members of certain political parties. Everyone knew about your views on this issue. The development in Himachal Pradesh therefore comes as a profound shock to us. We express our utmost disappointment and urge you to use your influence to ask the State to rescind the law or withdraw it altogether. As President of the Indian National Congress, you must undo the grievous damage being done to the sanctity of the Indian Constitution and to the freedom of faith of the Indian People.' According to these international evangelists, induced conversion is not a fraud on the Indian Constitution. At any rate, their attitude shows total contempt for the final verdict of the Supreme Court to the effect that freedom of faith and induced conversions are incompatible and that there is no legal sanctity for unfettered induced conversion founded on induced fraud under the Indian Constitution. Every enlightened Hindu all over the world who does not want to sell his soul for a mess of pottage offered as incentive or inducement by the Christian establishment is fully aware of the fact that the Christian Church in India does not want to severe its ties with its foreign masters even 60 years after the British have left our soil. In order to survive and to consistently prey upon the heathen pagans as part of an organised campaign for what they call 'Harvesting of Souls,' the church establishment in the country has no other option but to continue to receive a steady flow of cash or bigoted missionaries or both into India from abroad. Most of them are indulging in disgraceful acts of national subversion and national sabotage. Keeping in view this background, and having regard to the imperative national need for the prevention of induced or forced conversion of Hindus which only promotes anti-nationalism in India, the RSS called for nationalisation of the Christian Church in India. Without furnishing any logical reasons against this suggestion, the Christian community vehemently opposed this suggestion. All the Christian missionaries in India know very well that they can never succeed in persuading the Hindus and other pagans to convert to Christianity by using logic alone. Therefore, they have set up an outfit in the country which cons the unsuspecting 'heathens' and then robs them of their religion and way of life. In order to maximise the 'harvest of faith,' these con artists resort to disgraceful practices of forcible conversion, apart from financing separatists movement in the country in a subterranean and surreptitious manner. It is a well-known fact that in this goal of national subversion, the Church establishment in India is hand-in-glove with the naxalites and the hard core communists who are anti-nationalists to the core. Its members are trained for the sole purpose of converting the heathen pagans, i.e., Hindus, Buddhists, etc. through all possible means fair or foul. Let me give a few telling instances in this context. Sometime ago in Kothapara, in the Idukki wildlife sanctuary, Kerala, the forest department discovered a series of 14 crosses put up by the Christhuraj Church. The wildlife sanctuary was being used as a pilgrimage centre by the Church. When the church trustees were confronted and told that they were breaking the law by trespassing and creating an imbalance in the eco-system, they explained to the authorities that the Church had been using the forest as a pilgrimage centre for over 50 years. This was a complete lie as the Forest Department authorities had proof that the crosses had started coming up only a few months earlier. Father Mathew Pandyamakkal, a former parish priest of Christhuraj Church, justified the putting up of the crosses by saying that forest stretch where the crosses had been set up was rocky and therefore people visiting this area could in no way harm the forest and the wildlife! It is clear that the Church set up this pilgrimage centre in a remote location, only to quietly conduct conversion ceremonies. The Kerala Forest Department is fully aware of the fact that the preservation of wildlife sanctuary is the least of their concerns. A similar situation also occurred in Nilackal in Kerala when a Church attempted to construct a shrine after unearthing a stone cross from the forests close to the Sabarimala Hindu pilgrimage centre. The Church claimed that the cross was installed by Apostle St Thomas, but when the Kerala government wanted to send it for archaeological study and scrutiny, the cross mysteriously vanished from the site. It was later revealed that the cross had been mischievously planted only to perpetuate the myth of the greatness of St. Thomas, so that the pagan Hindus in the area could be converted with ease. India's much neglected north-eastern region is the hotbed of atrocities committed by the Christian Missionaries against the heathen pagans. Sometime last year the Indian Church of Christ in Assam was caught red-handed in the act of forcibly converting 14 Hindus. Over a period of six months the missionaries belonging to this Church offered money, jobs and other economic benefits to these extremely poor Hindus if they chose to convert to Christianity. These Hindus were threatened with dire consequences if they chose to reveal to anyone the circumstances under which they had been converted. However, two brave individuals who had been forcibly converted came to the police and gave them the lurid details of how the Christian priests had lured them to their residence with the promise of jobs and money. In return for this favour, the priests then asked these individuals to convert to Christianity. The police have identified Father Jojy Vomen as the mastermind behind these forcible conversions. It is understood that he moved to Assam from Bangalore in 1995. The Christian Church establishment in India is also involved in anti-national activities supporting various separatist movements throughout the country. To cite just one example, in Tripura, the Church authorities known to threaten innocent Hindus with reprisals from the naxalites if they do not convert to Christianity. I was shocked to note that some Indian missionaries belonging to Gospel for Asia had intruded in to the site of the 'Ardh Kumbh' festival at the confluence of two sacred rivers at Prayag (Allahabad) in the last week of January, 2007 to carry out their disgraceful deeds of induced conversion, as they did in Tirupathi Tirumala Temple a few months ago. GFA native missionaries and Bible College students were attending the event to offer the pilgrims an alternative to the traditional rituals by introducing them to Jesus. The team for the festival outreach included staff members from the GFA State office, women from local churches, students and staff members from Bible colleges as well as pastors from Allahabad. Some of them were driven away; some beaten and some were arrested by the police. Islam-embracing, Christianity-coveting and Hindu-hating UPA government would view these splendid deeds of 'Gospel for Asia' as acts of benediction - or at any rate as a legitimate exercise of minority rights in a land of pseudo-secularism!! Perhaps Helen Ellerbe had missionaries like 'Gospel for Asia' in mind when she wrote the following lines: 'The dark side of Christian history can help us understand the severing of our connection with the sacred. It can teach us of the most insidious and damaging slavery of all: the control of people through dictating and containing their spirituality. This ignored side of Christian history can suitably illuminate our minds, opening our eyes to the pernicious ideas and beliefs which foster the denigration of human rights, the intolerance of difference and the destruction of the natural environment.' Mahatma Gandhi during the course of his famous trial in Ahmedabad in 1922 described the British Government in India as 'Satanic'. I would like to describe the conversion tactics of Evangelism as evils of 'Satanism.' (The writer is a retired IAS officer)

May 1, 2007 New Indian Express KOCHI: It seems divinity is beating a hasty retreat at the Divine Retreat Centre, Muringoor. For, tumbling out of its cupboards are allegations of sexual harassment, missing persons, mysterious deaths, financial irregularities and illegally running a hospital! The Special Investigation team headed by Vinson M Paul, Inspector-General of Police, after preliminary inquiry into the allegations against the centre, on Monday registered a criminal case at Koratty police station against 10 persons, including Fr George Panackal, director of the centre, and also filed an FIR before the Judicial First Class Magistrate, Chalakkudy. While Fr George Panackal is implicated as the first accused, the other accused are procurator Fr Mathew Thadathil, homoeo doctor Thankamma, Sr Teresa and six employees. The case is registered under sections 120B (criminal conspiracy), 342 (wrongful confinement) 324 voluntarily causing hurt by dangerous weapons or means), 328 (causing hurt by poison etc with intent to commit an offence, 201 (causing disappearance of evidence of offence, 420 (cheating) of the Indian Penal Code. The other offences alleged include the conducting of a psychiatric institution without licence, administration of psychiatric drugs on several persons (15 persons are still at the centre). The FIR also said the institution collected money by conducting religious functions and mentally hurt those who are opposed to the functioning of the institution. During 1996-2006, as many as 974 premature deaths occurred at the centre, and bodies were cremated without providing information to the police. The documents were allegedly forged to make it appear that the deaths were natural. Several persons are locked in cells. Persons showing violent signs are injected with some unknown drugs. Treatment is imparted by untrained persons. There are no medical practitioners at the centre. The investigation had been ordered by the High Court on the basis of the allegations contained in an anonymous letter. It was alleged that Fr Mathew Thadathil had made an inmate pregnant and she delivered a child. Celin Lopez of Alappuzha allegedly went missing from the centre. IAS and IPS officials were allegedly extending illegal assistance to the centre which allegedly was receiving foreign funds

someone mentioned in one of the last posts, the word idiots and some other names. I feel uncomfortable to read this type of comment even if it is directed to those who have no proper understanding. I think it will have a negative effect, because even so those who come from a different angle of vision practice chanting and are followers of Srila Prabhupada. btw considering the present religious climate on the planet, like christians destroying ancient temples in india and so on , we should put all politics and differences unto a slow burner in oder to further devotee union for the sake of bringing about the golden age. In fact these discussion can be picked up again in the future, right now we need to become extremly strong, there are sinister forces everywhere, which are against dharma and who will do anything to destroy it. We need to get our act together and unite and preach lord Caitanyas mission 24/7. We must stop arguing about any of these subjects and then one day we will all understand. This is true and a fact, the christians advance in numbers, the moslems advance in numbers and we will have a huge job to defend what we beliefe in. Those fundamentalist christian and moslem sects are a great danger to vaisnava dharma and we have to put all our differences aside for afuture time to discuss. They want us to fight, even about small matters. The reality is that we are all together Iskcon, the international society for Krishna Consciousness, no matter which camp we take shelter in,that is real understanding of what is vaisnava society. This understanding has to be accepted and promoted everywhere. we are all brothers and sisters serving and loving the same Supreme Personality Of Godhead Lord Krishna, as such we have to put aside our problems and little quarrels for now. Read this The Threat Against Hindu Temples and Vedic Culture in India This article shows how the Indian government is purposely jeopardizing the future of Hindu temples. With a little attention, anyone can see how Hindu institutions and Hinduism in India are unfairly targeted by a combination of Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists, vote bank politics and unscrupulous politicians and businessmen. Particularly alarming is the destruction of Hindu institutions and illegal mass conversions by other religions. Through the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act, Hindu temples and Maths are taken over by state Governments in the name of better administration, while mosques and churches are completely autonomous. This Act allowed the state governments and politicians complete control over the temples and their property. Many abuses are committed by multiple state governments using the power accorded through this Act. In Andhra Pradesh under Chief Minister Y. Samuel Rajasekar Reddy, tens of thousands of acres of temple lands are sold away leaving temples with little economic basis. This is done without the permission of the local Hindu community. The state government and the endowments department whose duty is to safeguard the temple properties have turned a blind eye to such encroachments on temple properties. The state government recently went to the extent of regularizing encroachments at nominal prices. These encroachments are often found to be closely associated to various political parties. In Andhra Pradesh, Hindu temples, institutions and Hinduism itself are illegally targeted by the crusade of the government. Under the Temple Empowerment Act, about 34,000 temples are under government control. Only 18% of the revenue of these temples is said to be given back for temple purposes, while the remaining 82% is used for other things by the government at their discretion. Such looting, massive sale of temple lands, demolition of temples, encroachments of temple properties, and the utilization of aggressive religious conversion tactics by Christians in the vicinity of temples is occurring all over Andhra Pradesh. The government, which is supposed to be a protector has become a destroyer of the culture, which threatens the very existence of Hindu institutions. Even the world famous sacred temple at Tirumala-Tirupati is not spared. The government attempted to take over 5 out of 7 Tirumala hills for churches and tourism. The 1000 pillar Mantapam in Tirumala was illegally demolished. Recently in response to Sri Chinnajeeyar Swami's petition, the Andhra Pradesh High Court has declared the demolition illegal and instructed the TTD management at Tirupati to reconstruct it. If anyone has seen the Tirupati temple and the difference there is without the 1000 pillar hall, it is shocking. The Andhra Pradesh government also allowed the demolition of at least 10 temples for the construction of a golf course. The son of the Chief Minister even blew up the Sunkulamma Hindu Temple in Anantapur, and his brother Vivekananda Reddy, by constructing his own building, has encroached on Gurukula trust lands worth crores of rupees. While taking extra precautions to protect churches and mosques with money from the state treasury, the government has been selling or donating, for various government schemes and non-Hindu purposes, tens of thousands of acres of temple lands worth thousands of crores of rupees that are meant for the perpetual sustenance of the temples. This will irreparably cripple Hindu institutions. Temples and maths that did not earlier come under government supervision are taken into government control for selling away their lands. The charge that 85 percent of the revenues is taken by the state exchequer was not denied by the state government. The State Endowment Board with 77,000 employees, all of whom are supported by 15-18 percent of 33,000 temples' income, has done little for the welfare of the Hindu institutions. At the same time, priests of temples are penniless and temples are decaying due to lack of maintenance. Hindu priests do not want to train children in priestly activities for lack of economical basis. This seems to be the goal of the government to systematically wipe out Vedic culture in general across India. Even while this is going on, the AP government pays 12,000 rupees per pilgrim for the Haj trip to Mecca, and is considering proposals to pay Christians for trips to Bethlehem. At the same time, the government has imposed a 50% raise on the fares of state buses on MahaShivaratri day, like a tax that takes advantage of the Hindu community and makes it even more difficult for them to observe their own holidays. Furthermore, the most important Hindu holidays, such as RamaNavami, are being taken off the government holiday list to be replaced by secular holidays. The net result of this strategic and planned selling of all temple properties, along with taxing the Hindu community while providing funds for Christian purposes, seems to be designed to systematically and completely cripple Hindu institutions in the state with little hope for their survival. The Andhra Pradesh government Order 21 gave crores (tens of millions) of rupees for the renovation and construction of churches, thus, helping to pave the way for major Christianization of the state using illegal techniques for mass conversions. Almost all these activities are a violation of the Indian constitution that is supposed to separate the state and religion. The government also controls the media that ignore any Hindu representation. Even the rare newspapers like Eenadu that do represent the Hindu view of things are persecuted by unfair tax raids, and attempts to stop their Hindu devotional telecasts. They then use the secular news media to spread false claims of attacks on Christians by fundamentalist Hindus, and to defame popular Vedic saints who make great strides for the Dharmic cause. Their next step has been to convert movie stars to gain influential voices, and with large amounts of money buy the cooperation of politicians. Activities in other parts of India include providing provisions to the poor, as long as they convert to Christianity. I have also seen where hospitals provide free medical care, such as for women giving birth to babies, as long as they sign papers that say they convert to Christianity. Or new water wells established in a poor village, but in front of a church where the pastor makes sure no non-believers are allowed to draw water. Or large corporations hire people for upper management only if they are Christian. In these and other ways, the plan is to convert with goods and allurements. Other strategies include that Hindus and tribals are told that the worship of Vedic gods is actually the worship of the devil or Satan. Also create a fear in them of hell that can only be rectified by accepting Christianity, and tell them that they remain poor because they have not converted. The newly converted are asked to make other converts, and to destroy Vedic temples to prove their dedication to their new faith. These are all strategies that often involve trickery and lies that actually go against the real teachings of Jesus. In Karnataka, for example, in 2003, as reported by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and in “India Today”, 79 crores ($790,000,000) was collected from about two lakh (200,000) temples. From that, temples received 7 crores ($70,000,000) given for their maintenance, Muslim Madrassas and Haj subsidy (for trip to Mecca) was given 59 crores, and churches about 13 crores. Twenty-five percent of the two lakh temples i.e., about 50,000 in Karnataka, will be closed down for lack of resources. In Kerala, funds from the Guruvayur temple are diverted to other government projects denying improvements to 45 Hindu temples. Land belonging to the Ayyappa temple (in Sabarimala) has been grabbed and church backed encroaches are occupying huge areas of forestland running into thousands of acres near Sabarimala. With a new Devaswom ordinance 1800 new temples are taken under government control. In this way, the looting of temple finances and properties continues unabated. It is said that this state alone has 29,000 Christian missionaries and clergy and 19,000 in Muslim counterparts whose main preoccupation is conversion of Hindus. Kerala is a precursor for the state of things to come for the Hindu community in India. With 56 percent Hindu population, it hardly controls 25 percent of the economy. In Maharashtra, the government recently declared to take over all the temples. This is a precursor to repeat the process already happening in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala. Articles 25 and 26 of the Indian Constitution guarantees public establishment and maintenance of religious institutions and to administer such property in accordance with law has been completely ignored toward Hindu foundations. While looting Hindu institutions, the Governments subsidizes the "Hajj" pilgrimage for the Muslims to the tune of Rs. 380 crores annually (including subsidy to airlines), and provides 1000 crores per year for the salary of Imams, and provides funds to churches. It is obvious that the current laws in the country are discriminatory towards Hindu religious institutions and it is important that Hindus demand that the government accord Hindu institutions the same status as Muslim and Christian institutions. The existence of the Hindu majority of India is being threatened in their own homeland. Selfish politicians are bent on destroying the Vedic Dharma and its culture that goes back thousands of years. Mahatma Gandhi who fought all of his life for social justice and religious tolerance called religious conversions by missionaries the deadliest poison that ever sapped the fountain of truth. Readers are requested not to merely stand by and hope that nothing will happen to Hindu Vedic Dharma. One thousand years of foreign rule has resulted in loss of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, and the cultural loss of Kashmir. Today a half-million Kashmiri pandits are living as refuges in their own mother land for more than a decade and are dying in large numbers. There has also been the cultural loss of the four states of northeast India which were a Hindu majority as recently as 1948. Next in line for losing its traditional culture is Andhra Pradesh. Hindus who are complacent need to understand the consequences if the current situation continues. Missionaries with the help of leftists and crooked politicians, pseudo-secularists, working in a democracy with a highly corrupt political system, a culturally deprived intelligentsia, with billions of dollars and little scruples, have the potential to convert a majority of India=s population away from the culture of their homeland in just a few years. This, along with vote bank politics, can result in complete marginalization of Hindus and the division of India. In such a situation, those who do not convert will be at an enormous disadvantage economically and spiritually. Any Hindu or Dharmist who is more concerned with himself, his family and his own personal advancement over and above his contribution to his society and culture, only decreases the future well-being of them and its traditions, and reduces his own participation in securing a positive future for them. It is time for all Hindus and followers of Vedic culture to stand strong for Dharma and to unite and work together to preserve and protect their culture by consolidating their votes to remove those politicians who are not supportive of Vedic Dharma, and to bring in those who are. We must remove all superficial differences among the numerous Hindu organizations and realize that without a unified platform, all forms of discord will be taken advantage of by those who work against us and wish to see the demise of Vedic culture. This must never happen, and we can all work together to prevent it. Now is the time to work together more than ever. MORE INFORMATION For a complete report on the U. S. Government=s connection with and support for evangelistic organizations committed to conversion activities all over India, please see this article on Tehelka.com at: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main.asp?filename=ts013004shashi.asp&id=1 Articles on www.stephen-knapp.com that compliment the purpose of this report include: 1. AHindus Must Stand Strong for Dharma@, 2. ATime to Plan the Survival of Vedic Culture@, 3. AAn Action Plan for the Survival of Vedic Culture@, 4, ASave Your Culture@, 5. APreaching in India=s Northeast for Cultural Preservation@, 6. AMy Northeast India Mission in 2003-4@ Also see: www.christianaggression.org -- to keep up with events and plans of Christian aggression. www.crusadewatch.org -- latest news on the plans and attempts of Christian organizations to make the world Christian. Www.hinduministries.org/pointers.htm -- is a Christian site that provides training missionaries and Christians worldwide how to win the hearts of Hindus to Christ. Also: www.hinduministries.org/hindu_links.htm -- links for different approaches to win Hindus. This gives inights into the techniques that can be expected that Christians use to bring Hindus to Jesus. Many more sites like this can be found. [This article sent out through Stephen Knapp=s News List. Send an email to Srinandan@aol.com to join it.]

Who is your siksa guru Vigraha Prabhu? Do you have one? In the maintime is not importand I think to believe either this or the other, because the main thing is to develope love for Radha and Krishna. I dont think to go back to The Lord is dependend on which version we believe in, since even Srila Prabhupada preached both, in the same time it is important to have the proper conclusion of sastra. For this reason we have to understand that the non sastra version is mentioned in Srila Prabhupadas individual talks to others and that in His books He makes no such statements. In His books He says the opposite and states the Final conclusion. I think the not supported version was sometimes being told by Srila Prabhupada, to make it easier for those who come from strong christian backgrounds, like a mother who tells that baby has come from a storch who has picked it up from a pond, but the mother does not expect the child to continue believing this as a grown up. It would be nice to believe that we have had a realationship in servitude with Krishna, but the mere idea of falling from that position or dreaming the material existence is totally unatractive and makes no sense. In fact for me to believe this would give me daubt about Goloka or Vaikuntha and it seems that it may be useful for some time in the beginning stages of spiritual life, especially because sastra may conflict with ones christian ideas, but as soon as one developes taste and attachment and knowledge about Krishna one should realise the truth of things.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur also writes "from memory, because i havnt got the book anymore" that the suffering of the jiva in the material world has to be real, so that his calling for mercy is real, so that Krishna can give His real mercy, which otherwise would not be possible it it was enactedor pretended. He also writes that giving that this type of mercy is not possible in the spiritual world, because there is no such suffering. A similar reason why Krishna fights demons in the material world, because there are non in the spiritual world. He states that the suffering has to be real, so that His union with the jiva is also real so that Krishna can enjoy the happiness of experiencing the joy of being together again. So if the suffering has to be real for The Lords mercy to be real, then there is no question of acting or dreaming on the site of the soul or Krishna.

This is true, I am dealing with clients all the time which have the same problems, they feel sad for this reason or another. 99% of the time they want some material quick fix and so I put them into trance and reframe some of their thoughts to become more positive. Techniques like nlp or eft can be very helpful. Unfortunately these quick fixes do not solve the real problem which is birth old age disease and death, the results of hypnosis, they are also temporary, because the client will continue to perform sinful activities and getting the same results as before in due course. Unless we change what we are doing we will continue to receive all these unwanted things. I wish I could tell more of my clients these truths, unfortunately they are not interested most of them and so they will go on receiving bad karma until they wake up and begin to ask questions inquiring about the Absolute Truth. So if you are some one like this or have been, then begin to inquire about this and not about quick fixes which could enable you to continue exactly with those activities, which have given you the results of feeling sad and unhappy. You should also consider that all that what you have done before have not given you happiness and therefor you ought to try something different, unless you always want the same results, makes sense doesnt it?

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees). and you are basing this on Srila Prabhupada saying " one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna” <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P> I could not possibly mean The Paramatma has been waiting? I still can not see any scriptural evidence that we are right now in Goloka or Vaikuntha and just dreaming all this? Rather then quoting from what Srila Prabhupada has said with your own purport attached, which to me is a second hand explanation being explained by another conditioned soul like me, i prefer an exact sloka or purport from Srila Prabhupadas books or any acharya in our line to confirm what you are saying. Show me where it is stated anywhere that we are dreaming all this and are right now existing as pure spiritual associates of the lord just fantazising. So where is that place in the spiritual world where all these trillions of panisads dreaming? its not something that is spoken of by any of our acharyas at all. Where has this idea of yours come from? who is your siksa guru? Maybe you are confusing this with Lord Visnu dreaming?

The brahmajyoti is the source of all illumination and the "fine particles" described above are floating within the effulgence of the brahmajyoti, which is also the source of all light which is distributed everywhere in all universes. The area where we have arrived from, is the brahmajyoti effulgence in which the Vaikuntha planets float. The Vaikuntha planets are personal and the brahmajyoti is Krishnas inpersonal effulgence. We are always described as marginal energy or spiritual sparks floating within the brahmajyoti, but we are not inhabitants of the Vaikuntha planets. From the impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence we can see the heavenly planets of the demigods and also the Vaikuntha planets. It is from there that we, because of our free will are able to decide where we want to be, in Vaikuntha as an eternal servant of The Lord or become a demigod and enjoy material pleasures. We turned our eyes away from Vaikuntha and decided to come here, that was our mistake. Now by the mercy of Sri Guru and Krishna, we can rectifie this mistake and turn our eyes away from the material world instead. This time by serving Guru and Radha Krishna with love and affection we can go pass the brahmajyoti and enter Vaikuntha and if we become very advanced, go even beyond there. Correct me if I am wrong.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura: "...within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva. These jiva souls (!!!!) are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion." Is this not self explanatory? why not first meditate deeply about this and then say something? Ask the question what is meant with "within His effulgence" ? What is meant with "innumerable fine particles" ? Did anyone ever read about "Lalita the fine particle" ? The jiva souls are never compared with the Parisads, the eternal pastime associates of The Lord, His playmates. The cowherd boys are never described as spirit souls, neither are the gopies. Its is never ever stated that they fall down or even get the idea of leaving from there. There is not even one story in all of Srila Prabhupadas books or the literature from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta or others, which describes even one such incident, not counting Jai and Vijay because they came to assist in The Lords pastime, similar to other great souls whose real identity as gopies is explained in scripture like the Caitanya Caritamrita. To accept the fall theory is due to a lack of genuine spiritual guidance. Anyway one should not argue from a false ego point of view and cont arguing for arguings sake, but humbly accept defeat when it is obvious that one is defeated and accept the one who defeats. This is vaisnava standard. The fall theory is truly defeated, no one should overlook Srila Prabhupadas final conclusion in the matter. It means what it says.

All I can say is that Iskcons gurus position promoting the fall theory to be true is astonishing. Have they read Srila Bhaktivinodas original Jaiva Dharma? It reminds me of some church father saying, (which was an article i read about two years ago.....so no reference ) "I know we should not eat meat, but if we where to acknowledge that we made a mistake like this we would loose lots of followers" It would just give so much credit to Narayana maharaja and other GM members, who have exposed these faulty non sastric ideas from the very beginning. For one who has ones received praise, to be rediculed is worse the death, no wonder they have a policy for Iskcon devotees not to associate with Narayana Maharajas or GM members. they are afraid to be exposed as having no proper understanding of scripture posing as allknowing gurus who can blame them? This is partly where these frictions are coming from and it is damn sad, because together we would pose an extreemly powerful front to those elements trying to destroy vedic culture.

Okay here is my pennies worth The spiritual world is a fast place, there is the tatasha region, there is vaikuntha, there is goloka vrindavan. we can live blissfully in the tatasha region or elswhere in the spiritual world with Krishna. From all these places we can decide to go any place due to free will, but generally we only come from the tatasha region. If we come from another place, like Vaikuntha or Goloka, then it is to assist The Lord in His pastimes. The associates of Krishna are never described as "living entities" the inhabitants of Vaikuntha or Goloka are always described as eternall liberated persons. This means they are what they are 100% spiritual bodies, there is no difference between them and their bodies. To think that they would choose to decent from such a high all knowing position, to take on a material body, without a higher purporse, like being part in krishnas pastimes is mayavadi. They also think God has become many, or humans are God experiencing Himself in the human form and other such concoctions. My understanding is that even so the freedom to do such a stupid thing is always available, they will never do this, because they are eternally liberated and are expansions of Krishna Himself. Can anyone imagine The gopis Lalita or Visakha to leave Krishnas association and come here, to be a scientists or the local butchers girlfriend? Or a servant of Vaikuntha leaving to become more happy in this place, getting cancer or being poor? Remember In Vaikuntha or Goloka the inhabitants are all knowing... To even consider this, means whoever considers thinks that there is ignorance in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Say what? you have to be quiet ignorant to choose this place over those places...hahahaha We are always described as marginal energy and the inhabitants of Goloka or Vaikuntha are certainly not marginal energy. We are living peacefully with krishna when we are in the tatastha region, why not? from there we decide to make this foolish decicion to come here, we could also have decided to go to Krishna but we didnt. I know I am a bit simple, but i think i understand that much