Dervish

The best way we can influence them is by strengthening the naga sankirtan movement to the point where it is the universal standard for varnashrama dharma.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/25/human.trafficking.ap/index.html It's also happening in the US today in 2004.

Whatever arguments are between ISKCON and BV Narayan Maharaj, ISKCON should not deprive this young girl of an education with fellow devotee children. She has no control who her parents choose to invite to their home. ISKCON's actions are in very bad taste. I never understood why children like this are banned from gurukulas. If they're not on the schoolyard taunting other children with "my guru is better than yours!", then what is the problem? Contamination? Hardly. I went to school with people from all kinds of religions and backgrounds. I never envied anyone because they had more money than me, or a cooler religion than mine seemed. After all the transgressions ISKCON committed against children both directly and indirectly, I think it's only fair that at the very least devotee children are not punished for the non-ISKCON beliefs of their parents.

for example : can u imagine the Power called Krishna in an alien form...with no flute...maybe becoz in that planet there is no such thing discovered as music...coz all aliens there are born deaf! You watch too much Star Trek and Star Wars. If you can base it on any sci fi, it's more like "Sliders" in the sense that there are unlimited "parallel" universes. In some universe, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is acting out his pastimes. In some universe, baby Krishna is in Vrindavan. There are just that many universes. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He plays the flute, Sanskrit is the mother tongue. He does not have to alter Himself for anyone. Only a Brahmavadi who doesn't believe in Sri Krsna's eternal form would make such a hypothesis based on science fiction. Don't become a GeorgeLucas-vadi!

It's not flooding now, is it?

I am not writing about people who were born sudra, the definition of Varnashram in Kali Yuga is not mere birth. Read some verses, please. "Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy." (BG 18.41) "If one shows the symptoms of being a brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya or sudra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification." (SB 7.11.35) "At that time the people in general will fall systematically from the path of a progressive civilization in respect to the qualitative engagements of the castes and the orders of society and the Vedic injunctions. Thus they will be more attracted to economic development for sense gratification, and as a result there will be an unwanted population on the level of dogs and monkeys." (SB 1.18.45) "People who are lowest among men and bewildered by the illusory energy of the Supreme Lord will give up the original varnasrama-dharma and its rules and regulations. They will abandon bathing three times daily and worshiping the Lord. Abandoning cleanliness and neglecting the Supreme Lord, they will accept nonsensical principles. Not regularly bathing or washing their mouths regularly, they will always remain unclean, and they will pluck out their hair. Following a concocted religion, they will flourish. During this age of Kali, people are more inclined to irreligious systems. Consequently these people will naturally deride Vedic authority, the followers of Vedic authority, the brahmanas, the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the devotees." (SB 5.6.10) "The brahmacaris will fail to execute their vows and become generally unclean, the householders will become beggars, the vanaprasthas will live in the villages, and the sannyasis will become greedy for wealth." (SB 12.3.33) kaler dasa-sahasrani madbhaktah samti bhu-tale ekavarna bhavisyamti madbhaktesu gatesu ca "For 10,000 years of Kali such devotees of Mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of My devotees there will be only one varna [outcaste]." (Brahma-vaivarta Purana 4.129.59) Vaisnava verse book: "Note that this phrase (kalau sudra-sambhavah) originates from the following verse found in the Skanda Purana: asuddhah sudra-kalpa hi brahmanah kali-sambhavah asuddhah - impure, sudra-kalpa - like sudras, brahmana - brahmanas, kali-sambhavah - born in Kali-yuga, present age of degradation In the Kali-yuga brahmanas will certainly become like (be born as) impure sudras. (Without samskaras and spiritual training, the brahmanas of Kali-yuga are considered sudras.)

Crimes against women are being committed worldwide, even in the USA, especially in the USA. If you stay in your home country and do not wish to take parikrama, chances are your home country has worse crimes being committed than those described in the article. Caste by lineage means nothing. We are living in Kali Yuga, so horrific crimes are being committed and are being justified with caste. In Kali Yuga, we are all sudras and/or lower. The only way to be a true brahmin is by surrendering to the Vaishnav path. Read Brahmana and Vaishnava by Srila Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati Prabhupad.

... Although I never thought that a neutral observation and inquiry would elicit this response toward me. It is very shameful that we now live in an age when inquiries cannot be made and we must accept all without question, even on a mundane institutional level, ala ISKCON 1980's. "Do ast you are told!"

Is BHAKTI the same as ISKCON in the sense that that is their name for their organization, or is it more like a BBT type set-up? At one point, they called themselves "International Gaudiya Vedanta Society", which I thought was more appropriate than naming them "Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti" since Srila BV Vaman Maharaj's mission differs greatly from BV Narayan Maharaj's mission. BTW, is this news in any way related to recent news that BV Narayan Maharaj's disciples have been told not to celebrate Gaura Purnima at Devananda Gaudiya Math in Navadwip this year?

I've heard the allopathic pills are not good to take. What's the Ayurvedic preventive treatment?

Deity archana is a serious responsibility. Don't do it unless you're willing to take care of Them daily in a loving, diligent fashion for life. If you don't have 2nd initiation, have images in the meantime. If you are inexperienced in archana, best to wait some time before attaining deities in your own home, and ask a temple or grashta ashram if they need help with the deities there, and you can gather some experience there so you can serve Them well.

I think it's inaccurate to say that all the problems of the movement are solely localized in ISKCON. They also exist else where.

Makes sense to me. Thanks, prabhu /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I just read this article: http://www.keralanext.com/news/?id=27399 "The ISKCON philosophy says a convict is not to be blamed for his crime. It is society that is responsible because it could not impart the right lessons to the sinner." There are people in all parts of society, even those who wear tilak, that commit crimes and go to jail. It is my understanding that each jiva is responsible for their actions. Is the newspaper misrepresenting ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaishnavism at large as a whole, or am I grossly uninformed? I humbly ask to be educated if the latter is the case. By the way, I'm in no way opposed to preaching to convicts.

I too am testing <hr>

if we were all sudras why would Prabhupada want to re-establish varnashrama? Because by becoming Vaishnavas we go beyond this ignorant sudra mentality and lifestyle and have brahmin tendancies in the process. Read Brahmana and Vaishnava by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada.

What's the deal with Ovaltine? How did it get its name? They really ought to call it Roundtine.

no, you can't.. judging devotees is not possible to be neutral, I didn't judge any devotees, if you read my post again you'll see I reported well-known occurances without passing judgment. Both sides acknowledge these events. Every incident which you may find objectionable have all been rationalized by NM and senior disciples. The only judgment that has been made today is the mental judgment you have made in your mind, and that indicates that you need to re-evaluate your beliefs.

So how does Naga Sankirtan fit into this ruling?

Stay away from coke and pepsi, they use GMO's anyway. I stick to all natural soda or fruit juice, or seltzer (I like San Pelligrino /images/graemlins/laugh.gif).

Haribol prabhu, This thread could potentially become a big flamewar, so everyone posting here needs to give the information in a sensitive, yet truthful manner. I'm going to do my VERY best not to inject my opinion into this post. If you truly have a friend who is a disciple of Narayan Maharaj who is bewhildered as to the situation, then he needs to be informed. Narayan Maharaj was at first welcome in many of the ISKCON temples. This was back in the year 1996 or so (his first world tour). He insisted that he was only taking parikrama of all the temples that Srila Prabhupad had made. Eventually he started to give initiation, and sometimes, would reinitiate people with an ISKCON guru. So NM was no longer allowed on ISKCON property. Some of his disciples started to come to ISKCON property and preach to new bhaktas or even some initiated devotees. This is when communication between ISKCON and NM and his IGVS broke down. At this point, various ISKCON people wrote position papers and charged NM with speaking on very high rasik topics and of course reinitiating ISKCON disciples. NM has some intelligent disciples so they wrote their own reply papers. So they go back and forth. The fact is, some of the most senior members of ISKCON have listened to these rasik topics from NM years ago in the early 1990's in Mathura. Why they choose to make public their contentions then, it could be a variety of reasons. NM is not extremely popular among the Gaudiya Math acharyas either. He has even re-initiated among GM acharyas, but all keep silent. The only ones among the GM who have publicly verbalized their contentions about NM are the SCS Math, but just about every major preacher from GM has a contention about NM; whether it is because of philosophical differences or if he reinitiated one of their disciples. Also some controversy arose a year or so ago about NM plagiarizing the works of Ananta Das Babaji. One disciple who had translated NM's books word for word later read books by ADB and discovered the words were identical. So several NM disciples left for ADB as well. (does anyone have the article?) What does all this mean? It means whatever you make of it. You can either say that NM is as big a power mongerer as ISKCON was during the 1980's (etc.), or that he is a great soul maligned only out of jealousy. The latter is the belief of the NM disciples. It's important for your friend to know about these problems as soon as possible, and learn what the NM IGVS camp has to say about these charges, so at least when somebody asks HIM about it, he will have an answer, one way or another.

I admit I haven't seen any of MM's work. Not even "Bowling for Columbine". So I can't comment there. What I can say however, is that the democratic party is pitiful as of late. It went from (ideally) a champion of the working class to pro-abortion, pro gay marriage, pro-Israel festival. Bush is feeding the American people to the corporate machine on a silver platter. After the platter is served, he chimes, "Mo' tea, suhs?" What you wrote about working class people is shocking, but I am not surprised. George W Bush wont stop it, nor will the hand-picked John Kerry stop it. Admittingly, I am surprised when I hear that some Vaishnavs vote Republican just for the stronger stance against abortion and gay marriage. Will Republican powerhouses Schwartzenegger and Bush stop what's happening in San Francisco, and now in New Mexico? In my opinion, it is ridiculous for devotees to be involved in politics nowadays. vittam eva kalau nrnam janmacara gunodayah dharma nyaya vyavasthayam karanam balam eva hi In Kali-yuga, wealth alone will be considered the sign of a man's good birth, proper behavior and fine qualities. And law and justice will be applied only on the basis of one's power. SB 12.2.2 Best to just chant and work on devotional service and the naga sankirtan movement.

It's just too bad that all the judges and lawmakers in this country are all in the pockets of those corporate giants. Be sure that the corporate agricultural giants are eating certified organic produce while they force Joey Punchclock and his family to eat crops crossbred with pigs and piranhas.

In 1977, a similar situation arose when a New York court was deciding whether ISKCON was a dangerous sect practicing brain-washing or a bona fide religion. After the court delivered a positive ruling, Srila Prabhupad read the New York Times article, "Hare Krishna Movement is a Bona Fide Religion". and he declared, "Now my mission is successful." Does anyone know where I can find this court ruling? I want to read it /images/graemlins/smile.gif