vijay

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nice post

Just messing, its a modification of the islamic declaration of faith. "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the last messenger of Allah" Does sound a bit ritviky.

There is no God except Krishna and Prabhupada peace be upon him is his last Guru.

It would be fine if SNM only claimed to have little shred of understanding of prabhupada, but instead he claims to be his successor and on many occassions has claimed to know him better than anyone, for for prabhupadas disciple to advance they should come to him etc etc, even though he says alot of differing things to prabhupada. Im sure most people wouldnt scrutinize him if he didnt make such claims and admitted he differs in some points like other god brothers have done.

I thought the term Krishna conciousness was a literal translation of Krishna chaitanya

Does this have any substance? Former prominent follower of Narayana Maharaja:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> “The Vilap Kusumanjali lectures Narayana Maharaja gave during 1991-1993 were more or less based on the commentaries of Sri Ananda Gopal Gosvami and Sri Ananta Dasa Babaji. Particularly some of the asta-kaliya-lilas related by the former were of his own realization. In terms of the Gaudiya Math, the former would be classified as a caste Gosvamin and the latter as a sahajiya Babaji. Nevertheless Narayana Maharaja plagiarized their works and let people believe he expressed his own realizations. And moreover, now he boycotts the very same persons’, Ananta das Baba's, works directly on his lectures. The translator and publisher of Ananta das Baba's works in English, Advaitadas, is a grand-disciple of Ananda Gopal Gosvamin. For all documents I have seen, Narayana Maharaja has not directly criticized Ananda Gopal Gosvamin, but he would certainly not be accepted by the orthodox followers of the Gaudiya Math.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “One of many examples: Vilapa Kusumanjali verse 31 — Narayana Maharaja says on September 21, 1994: “In the meantime the anklet of one foot came out and went away. Tulasi noticed that the sound of Vamsi had also become less and Srimati Radhika stopped to dance and everything was upset. Tulasi ran towards the anklet, but in the meantime Krsna came and took it. He bound it on the feet of Srimati Radhika, and again the dancing and all things were done as before. Tulasi Manjari remembered this and began to tell to Radhika, “O You remember when Rasa was going on and this happened? Krsna took the anklet Himself and He tightened it on Your feet and again You began to dance.” Ananda Gopala Gosvami said 40 years earlier: hathat nupura khose geche. Dasi nece nece ese noto hoiya nrtya parayana carane poraiya dilen....nupur khose geche dekhe kokhon-o syamasundara bansi gunje rekhe carana buke tule niye dui hate poran. “Suddenly an anklebell fell off; the maidservant danced and stooped down to put them back on Her dancing feet. Sometimes also Syamasundara, when seeing the anklebell falling off, tucks His flute in His sash, takes Svamini’s feet to His chest and replaces the bell.”

thanks for that.

My point wasnt to go to kumbha mela or anywhere else and start randomly telling people that they are wrong, my point is that there is nothing wrong with discussing something and giving your view on that matter. You want everyone not to give their opinion? I agree there are over zelous people but that occurs everywhere. Your original point was that we shouldnt say people are wrong. This is misinformation, whether you are exagerating or taking someone's over zelous's opinion I dont know, you may be better off researching your self in to what ISKCON says. Krishna conciousness claims to be the highest relisation of god head, and it recognises that different modes of worship are recomended for different levels of people, as it is stated in the gita and other scriptures. Hinduism has always had shaivites, but hinduism has always had debates between shaivites and vaishnvas. This is nothing new. Shiva is respected among the vaishnvas, however there is always disagreement on the position of shiva. Just as shaktas will see Krishna under Maa, or Shivaites who talk about the impersonal Shiva who actaully spoke the Gita through Krishna. Opinions are always varied. Vaishnavas have a certain viewpoint which can be discussed with other sects with logic and reason based on sastra. Ultimately its up to the indvidual to decide what makes sense. Their is no Gun against anyones head, just use your head and decide. Respect doesnt mean acceptance. I may respect Islamics, christians, shaivites, saibaba's, other vaishnavas etc, but may not accept their philosophy to some degree, we may discuss this and point out what I think. I've spoken to christians and said I dont think Jesus is god, most will try and give me an explanation, a few small minded or weak faithed will get uncomfortable. People have said to me Krsna was just a self relized person which is a common belief in many mayavadi sects, I will use whatever knowledge I have to find out wheteher mine or their understanding is incorrect, not get offended just because someone else thinks something else

This is sentimental. "prostelytize other unsuspecting Hindus, and this is considered wrong" Considered wrong by you, this is your opinion and your entitled to it. Have a look at indias History, who did sankarcharya convert?, who did Ramunajacarya convert? who did Madhva convert? Who did Mahaprabhu convert who did swaminarayan convert? Who did guru Nanak convert? In our tradition the ideas that make the most sense people adopt, the sentimental ritualistic ideas are not strong and die. This form of debate keeps everyone clued up, if you discourage it and let people do things out of blind faith then they will naturally be converted eventually to other vedic or even non-vedic paths, as their faith is so weak no one wants to be a blind follower. Im glad vedic sects prostelytize at least there is some logic and reason involved, children know why they are doing stuff, i have seen most converts study much more as they actually thought about what they are doing. Vedic knowledge has always been about letting the best ideas win. There has always been debates on vedanta, not about keeping what grandma told me alive.

The attitude of discussing what is right and wrong is not disrespectful, agreed if its done in a condecending way then any statement is offensive. In india there has always been debate between various sects, Ramunajacarya debated Sankaracaryites, Madhvas debated both the sects, the pusti marg another. Its only a recent phenomenon where this so called hindu philosophy of 'dont debate' 'everyone is right' philosophy has come in to play. Debates previously where conducted using the scripture, there are various rules of debate and we have the Nya sastra's. However although one sect will think the other is wrong they will debate it but it was never fanitical like in some other religions where it turned into violence, that respect for ideas was always maintained, that is the greatness of vedic culture, that is why we india is a hub of sprituality as thought were refined through intelligent debate and reasoning. Even Krsna in the gita makes distinctions, your interpretation of these may be different but the distinction of higher and lower is clear throughout the scriptures. "Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own nature." (BG 7.20) "Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet." (BG 7.23) "Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way." (BG 9.23) You will find similar translations from most authors. Like theist Prabhu said ISKCON can be classified as a subset of hinduism, and therefore the tag can be used as its a branch of vaishnnavism, however in terms of the philosophy when preaching the tag cannot be used. Your version of hinduism is "Attitude that we are right and you are wrong is disrespectful", we may not agree with that and think you should tell someone they are wrong when we believe they are (sidepoint. if you think people should not be told they are wrong in what they believe then why are you telling us that we are wrong for saying what we believe in), some others think to be a hindu you have to be born a hindu, or to be a brahman you have to be born a brahmin like the smarta brahmins, others believe that all gods are one, others think anything goes, obviously we dont agree with that and so dont class ourselves as hindus when it comes to philosophy as every tom has his own conception. Krsna isnt a hindu nor is shiva, nor arjuna, hindu is an umbrella term that has its uses, its not a religion, but more describes a whole array of contridictory and similar things. There was no real hindu identity until around the the monghul rule when all sects were refered to as hindus, before that sects would refer to themselves as either vaishnava, shakta etc. The rishis didnt regard themselves as hindus but seekers of truth following the vedas. In most writngs of acaryas before the 12th century you will never see that they refered to themsleves as hindu instead they used the name of their linage. This defining of what a hindu is and encouragment to use that label as some sort of religion is a modern thing, neo-hinduism which gained momentum during the freedom struggle from british rule. Just like im classified as a indian or american, as a man, or human for practical reasons like passport conversation etc, i may be classified as hindu in some respects to whatever hindu means, however on the philosophical level im none of these things, my real identity is a spirit soul servent of Krsna. In gods world, you dont have badges of who is a hindu and who is a muslim etc. SO philosophically according to scripture we are not hindu not human, animal etc, however as a means of classification to the general world depending on who you are talking to you classify your self in different ways. If your talking to a fellow indian and asked where are you from ? you will reply gujerat or punjab, but if your talking to someone from america you may say india. These are all relative things that have a practical purpose. I do agree that there are people with condescending attitudes, but that isnt restricted to any sect its human nature.

Now will you say with Gaur Govinda maharajas emphasis on staying in ISKCON for his dicsiples and disciples of prabhupada he has institutional conciousness? If so then you should stop quoting him. Im sure you'll just find more quotes which are indirect to show how everyone should go to Narayana maharaja, may be its an insecurity thing or something, where ever you go everyone has to follow. http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-06/editorials402.htm ..." Next thing, this Sacinandana Swami in Heidelberg, Germany, he asked me, "Maharaja, why have you come? What is the purpose of your coming now? You have so much bodily problem, you cannot move freely. So many things I could notice. Still you are doing a lot of touring, traveling and preaching. What is your purpose?" He asked me. I said, “Maharaja, I have dedicated my life, my body, my mind, my speech, everything I've dedicated for the service of Sri Guru and Gauranga and my revered spiritual master, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Maharaja has founded this International Society for Krsna Consciousness, like his life, his body. He is getting so much pain now, I could feel so. After his disappearance, many left, so- called sannyasis, leaders, those who have joined the other camp, Sridhara Maharaja camp and some other camp and they are now criticizing ISKCON, criticizing Srila Prabhupada, committing such great offense they couldn't understand, and they must get punishment for it, definitely. But what they say, it is intolerable on my part, intolerable… They showed me that booklet they are publishing, Sadjana Tosani, and they have put the name of my guru maharaja there, Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, then Bhaktiraksa Sridhara, then Govinda maharaj. Why have they put the name of my guru maharaja? Devotee: It's cheating. Gour Govinda maharaja: Cheating, yes they are cheating. You are publishing your booklet, then you'll put your name. But the photo of my guru maharaja, "Guru maharaja said" articles they have printed there and telling these ISKCON devotees that Bhaktivedanta Swami taught, gave only elementary knowledge, A B C. He has not given any higher Vaisnava philosophy, education. Now, after Bhaktiraksita Sridhara maharaja, Govinda maharaja is keeping it up, "please come and join." So they are just tricking and stealing the men of ISKCON. And that is intolerable, very painful. I got such a shock in my heart. These fools, who are going there. They are fools ! I chastised them, "Why you are such a fool ? You believe them? You don't believe Prabhupada who fulfilled the desire of Gauranga Mahaprabhu ? prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama C.B, Antya 4.126 Who did it? Did they do it? Srimad Bhaktisiddanta Prabhupada Maharaja already sent, prior to the coming of my guru maharaj to the West, he sent Bhakti Tirtha, Bhakti Hrdaya Bon maharaj and some others. Why they couldn't do it? They were sannyasis, they were living in the math with Bhaktisiddanta Thakura, but my guru maharaja was a grhasta, he was living in his home. He was not matha-vasi, staying in the matha. He was not a sannyasi at that time, he was a grhasta. But he could get the complete, full mercy, complete mercy of Bhaktisiddanta, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, specially empowered person, an empowered devotee. Who could fulfill the desire of all previous acaryas, especially Bhaktivinoda Thakur, Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati. Who came to the West? Who sowed the seed, who laid the foundation of Krsna Consciousness? Who fulfilled the desire of Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu? Specially empowered. He's empowered. Can't you understand this thing, why couldn't they do this thing? Why do they come at this time and do now, when the atmosphere is created, the platform is there, foundations are already laid some construction is there? Now they are coming. Now you are going there, leaving ISKCON camp. Such foolishness! You are such a fool. Can't you understand this thing? Thereby they are committing such offence. He has given only elementary knowledge A B C, nothing higher? You can't understand what he has said. When a tiny seed is there, it contains, like the seed of a banyan tree. So tiny but it contains a great banyan tree inside. You fool cannot understand this thing. So intolerable. As a disciple of my guru maharaja and as a member of this founded society ISKCON, it is our duty to keep up the prestige. Yes, it is our duty now....Yes, that is my only purpose. So I am coming and teaching. And I want to make them 'mum', shut their mouth. Now there is higher peaching in ISKCON. Yes, the time has come now. The time has come when my guru maharaja (Srila Prabhupada), he gave everything in seed form. That seed will now be fructified. Yes, it contains everything and you should understand. You are so foolish you cannot understand this thing. What my guru maharaja said in one word, in one sentence, it needs further explanation. One word, one sentence contains and you can't understand, you're such fools. So my mission is to show how everything is there in Prabhupada's books and make them 'mum' and so nobody will leave ISKCON." The following are two letters written by His Holiness Srila Gour Govinda Swami. Dear Gudakesa das Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your letter, undated. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents. My opinion is that Srila Prabhupada will not be happy (my emphasis) with these senior devotees going outside of ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada has said that everything is in his books. If you try to understand this, then by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada it will all be made clear to you. It is a fact that if an elevated Vaisnava is there, then one should go and take his association. There is no harm in that. But in this case (with NM) there is a danger that the discipline in our organization will be affected adversely. If the leaders are going outside of ISKCON, how will we be able to maintain discipline? Srila Prabhupada has formed this society and this THREAT (my emphasis) to his society will only cause him PAIN (my emphasis). With this consideration, they should not go. That will only lead to indiscipline in our society. Two sides are there; philosophical and organizational. On the organizational side, this practice is not good. Therefore we have this GBC body which makes so many rules to maintain the discipline of the members of our society. But how will we be able to keep discipline now? No one will listen, 'if the leaders are going, why we should listen, we will also go'. This will create only trouble. May this letter find you in the best of health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness. Your servant Gour Govinda Swami Dated 3/11/94 next letter: Dear Goloka Vrndavan das, Hare Krsna. May you have the blessings of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga all the time. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you for your letter dated Oct., 23 1993, which I have just received. I have gone through it carefully and noted the contents. You mention that many devotees are loosing faith in ISKCON and are leaving our society to find shelter elsewhere. That is not good. THEY SHOULD NOT LEAVE ISKCON (my emphasis); that will never please Srila Prabhupada. Develop patience and tolerance, and pray to Srila Prabhupada from the core of your heart. How is it that he will not help you? I hope this letter finds you in good health and a blissful mood of Krsna consciousness, Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada, Gour Govinda Swami. Dated18/12/93

You like quoting Gaur govinda maharaja (Selectively?). He was also apart of the instituation, a part of the rubber stamping process, although he didnt agree with everything and was harrassed, he for some strange reason stayed with the useless institution till the end. A place where rubber stamping went on, philosophical deviations and aparahad. I dont think he stayed just for the sake of the instituation but he felt helping the instituition will please prabhupada. (Copied from a recent article by murli krishna swami) http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-06/editorials406.htm “He (Narayana Maharaja) has some jnana! Better for devotees to associate with senior devotees within ISKCON, even though they may not have as much jnana, because at least they are Authorized.” “This is Bhaktivinode Thakur’s dhara. We follow Bhaktivinode Thakur’s dhara. Yes. Understand? So Narayan Maharaja’s dhara is something. Our dhara, Prabhupada’s dhara is different. So we follow this. This difference is there.” “Now you are going there, leaving ISKCON camp. Such foolishness! You are such a fool. Can't you understand this thing? Thereby they are committing such offence.” “So my mission is to show how everything is there in Prabhupada's books and make them 'mum' and so nobody will leave ISKCON." “My opinion is that Srila Prabhupada will NOT BE HAPPY (my emphasis) with these senior devotees going outside of ISKCON. “ “…But in this case (with NM) there is a danger that the discipline in our organization will be affected adversely. If the leaders are going outside of ISKCON, how will we be able to maintain discipline? Srila Prabhupada has formed this Society and this THREAT (my emphasis) to his society will only cause him PAIN (my emphasis). With this consideration, they should not go. That will only lead to indiscipline in our society. “ “You mention that many devotees are loosing faith in ISKCON and are leaving our society to find shelter elsewhere. That is not good. THEY SHOULD NOT LEAVE ISKCON (my emphasis); that will never please Srila Prabhupada. “

It is duty of the disciple before taking siksa that the siksa guru is in line with the diksa guru. Opinions will differ in what is regarded as different but its important to know what the divergences are. Every acarya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Krsna consciousness. Therefore, the method of one acarya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends: tasmat kenapy upayena manah krsne nivesayet sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah An acarya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Krsna consciousness. First they should become Krsna conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Krsna consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu..." "...It is the concern of the acarya to show mercy to the fallen souls. In this connection, desa-kala-patra (the place, the time and the object) should be taken into consideration..." Cc. Adi lila 7.37-38 Prabhupada: "Then so siksa and diksa-guru... A siksa-guru who instructs against the instruction of spiritual, he is not a siksa guru. He is a demon. Siksa-guru, diksa-guru means... Sometimes a diksa-guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning, instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa-guru. Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru/Acarya. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal." Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 17:1-3, 07-04-74, Honolulu So both things are there. We may favour oneside more than the other according to our conditioning.

"Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. He, before passing away, he gave all direction and never said that This man should be the next acarya.’ But these people, just after his passing away they began to fight, who shall be acarya. That is the failure. They never thought, Why Guru Maharaja gave us instruction so many things, why he did not say that this man should be acarya?’ They wanted to create artificially somebody acarya and everything failed. They did not consider even with common sense that if Guru Maharaja wanted to appoint somebody as acarya, why did he not say? He said so many things, and this point he missed? The real point? And they insist upon it. They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya. So better remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by Guru Maharaja. That is perfection." Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 08-16-76, Bombay

Refutation by mother Jadurani Jadurani Mataji claims Narayana mahraj loves srila prabhupada more than we can understand this may be so, and the followers of srila prabhupada shouldnt minimize other god brothers of prabhupada also, however for the disciples and grand disciples of prabhupada, prabhupada is their saviour and held in the highest esteem, for Narayan maharaj understandibly he may see his guru maharaj and others as more qualified. However this mood is not the mood of prabhupadas followers whom were saved by him even though seen as less qualifed to some. This subtle and sometimes gross minimisation of prabhupada is something prabhupada has himself warned us about on many occasions.

Thats a nice lesson in working in detachment , no real joy or pain, working for krsna always joyful, ashame i cant do either.

The sources are on each of the quotes, I got these from 'Understanding Narayana Maharaja' by Urmilla devi dasi, it can be downloaded from here http://www.oldchakra.com/mainpages/people/narayanmhrj/index.htm. A partial rebuttal of some of the quotes by Syamrani devi dasi(Jadurani devi dasi). http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0206/ET08-7376.html A reply by Puru prabhu about those that post this sort of stuff are envious and neophyte not seeing that all acaryas have their own ways of preaching. http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0204/ET23-7280.html

I think my auto login doesnt work

Prabhupadas books were edited on whims while he was physically present, he was furious. He wanted them changed back by people he trusted, prabhupada was aware its a long process, this was said a few months before his departure. The people he trusted to re-edit them were not beyond mistakes prabhupada was also aware of this, but he trusted them and wanted them to do it more than anyone else. If anyone else thinks otherwise it is irrelevent. The only question is should his desire of been fulfilled after his disappearance as it was impossible to do it all while he was present for those few months. If so what are the timescales? It seems that prabhupada wasnt aware of many of the faulty changes until it was bought to his attention by his dicsiples.

He never appointed the 11 as diksa gurus, and may be not any other guru as he felt them not qualified as given in one of those letters. But how does it work once he leaves the planet how is the order given? I dont see him ever mentioning that he'll remain the soul diksa guru after he leaves, his desire was to clearly have qualified dicsiples that will take over, in the absence of such disciples does the ritvik system continue? does prabhupada order them through the heart when they are qualified? or do we see someone as self effulgent as was the plan for the gudiya matha? (self effulgent what does that mean to every one or to half the people or what?)

Well from what ive seen its generally a really nice place, I used to think i was advanced and humble until i went their and met the brahmacharis felt like a spot on a white page, usually we dont realize how dark we are until our background is spotless, we may seem elevated when are association is not so elevated. I felt their humility and niceness where fake when i first got there and wanted to leave. If one cant go there I thought this video done by someone i think external on chowpatty is a nice reflection on the principles the temple is built on. http://krishnaculture.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=KC&Product_Code=STD&Category_Code=MISC And some articles based on maharajs talks on how the temple has developed and its vision http://www.namahatta.org/nh2/?q=en/node/149

I still disagree with that. Firstly the point is one should spend sometime there before making some analysis that may be incorrect. From most people I've met they have the least guru sectarian mentality, As long as people know how to respect vaishnavas people are welcomed, no one has to declare someone pure that would be a foolish mentality there, that may occur elsewhere but havent seen it at chowpatty, they dont even talk about guru in that way,The diciples that I met of RNS do not even talk about him and encourage othes not to speak about him in a way that will make people feel uncomfortable, whats in their heart remains personal to them, and respect and encourage other peoples faith in the way they feel comfortable. Radhanatha swami's emphasis is of nice vaishnava dealings and being a servent. As long as one has some vaishnava culture and able to appreciate vaishnavas, simple and doesnt go round declaring people pure or unpure like some mad man they should be able to intergrate fine.

Looks like prabhupada doesnt mind mimicing their structure. I agree with this the blind follower learns his lesson by being cheated, the guy that cheats goes to a hellish planet. Anyone that takes responsibility can either make rapid advancement or rapidily go down if they abuse their power. However that doesnt make the blind followers innocent they got the rectification they required. Krsna awards as we surrender to him. However if we abuse in his name then the reaction is more. I havent read anyone on this thread say that we should give up the person bhagvat, only that we also follow the mood of a prominent acarya. Just like we are known as the followers of rupa goswami in our linage, or the followers of bhaktisiddhanta, in iskcon prabhupadas books and mood are the prime basis as he established himself, as the founder acarya.

Thanks for that, not seen that one before. The order of st francis of asisi is similar, devotees have the same aim but follow in a certain mood according to the founder. Looking at the history of ISKCON it clearly seems to of moved along to having prabhupada in the centre since the zonal acarya days. If there isnt a common basis then its easy for the founder acaryas society to split into guru factions.