Sonic Yogi

the Prajapatis prayed to Lord Brahma

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.24

tvaḿ brahma paramaḿ guhyaḿ

sad-asad-bhāva-bhāvanam

nānā-śaktibhir ābhātas

tvam ātmā jagad-īśvaraḥ

SYNONYMS

tvam — Your Lordship; brahma — impersonal Brahman; paramam — supreme; guhyam — confidential; sat-asat-bhāva-bhāvanam — the cause of varieties of creation, its cause and effect; nānā-śaktibhiḥ — with varieties of potencies; ābhātaḥ — manifest; tvam — you are; ātmā — the Supersoul; jagat-īśvaraḥ — the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

PURPORT

This prayer is offered to the impersonal Brahman, which consists of the effulgent rays of Parabrahman. Parabrahman is the Supreme Personality of Godhead (paraḿ brahma paraḿ dhāma pavitraḿ paramaḿ bhavān [bg. 10.12]). When Lord Śiva is worshiped as Parabrahman, the worship is meant for Lord Viṣṇu.

Prayers to Lord Siva:

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.23

guṇa-mayyā sva-śaktyāsya

sarga-sthity-apyayān vibho

dhatse yadā sva-dṛg bhūman

brahma-viṣṇu-śivābhidhām

SYNONYMS

guṇa-mayyā — acting in three modes of activity; sva-śaktyā — by the external energy of Your Lordship; asya — of this material world; sarga-sthiti-apyayān — creation, maintenance and annihilation; vibho — O lord; dhatse — you execute; yadā — when; sva-dṛk — you manifest yourself; bhūman — O great one; brahma-viṣṇu-śiva-abhidhām — as Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or Lord Śiva.

TRANSLATION

O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

PURPORT

This prayer is actually offered to Lord Viṣṇu, the puruṣa, who in His incarnations as the guṇa-avatāras assumes the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

SYNONYMS

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

TRANSLATION

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

PURPORT

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

Shiva wrote:

Originally Posted by shiva

Vishnu tattva means one thing only in Gaudiya theology: Vishnu means all-pervading; Vishnu-tattva refers to swamsa or plenary expansions of Krishna, that is they are all the same all-pervading supreme Lord. Vishnu-tattva is only applicable to someone who is all-pervading, only applicable to God.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Lord Siva is all pervading within the universe.

That is your mistake to think that Lord Siva is not all pervading.

Even Lord Brahma is all pervading.

Sorry to burst your misconception.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21

śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ

deva-deva mahā-deva

bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana

trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs

trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

SYNONYMS

śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison.

TRANSLATION

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

PURPORT

Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So, these are all slokas in 8th Canto in regards to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, who drank the ocean of poison to save the universe.

These verses were not offered to Sadasiva of Vaikuntha, but to Lord Siva in this universe.

Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that Lord Siva is empowered with all-pervading and has the qualities of Lord Vishnu as such.

Posted by shiva

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles.

No, you are wrong.

The husband of Parvati, Lord Siva is not a jiva.

Siva is always in connection with Mahamaya, but that does not make him a jiva.

When Siva is not in touch with Mahamaya, then he is the original Sadasiva who is the husband of Rama-devi, Lord Vishnu and is not the Sadasiva expansion that is in connection with Mahamaya.

The second Sadasiva who is the consort of Mahamaya is the combination of Vishnu-tattva and Jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

The second Sadasiva who is the expansion of the Vishnu Sadasiva is always in contact with Mahamaya and sometimes acts as Vishnu-tattva, as in his preserving the universe and protecting it from the kalakuta, and sometimes act in capacity of jiva to destroy the universe.

The second Sadasiva who consorts with Mahamaya is this combination of Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada refers to him as shaktyavesha avatar which means a jiva who has been empowered with some Vishnu-tattva powers.

Shakytavesha avatars are not jiva and are not Vishnu, they are combination of both.

Ordinarily, the jiva cannot attain any powers to the level of Vishnu, but in the case of shaktyavesha there is some function of Vishnu working through the jiva.

When Vishnu works through a jiva that is shaktyavesha avatar and is not ordinary jiva.

In effect, a jiva can be empowered to function as Vishnu tattva.

That is shaktyavesha avatar.

At that time the jiva is not acting as a jiva but as Vishnu tattva or Siva tattva.

These Shaktyavesha avatars do not have all the powers of Vishnu, but some powers of Vishnu are invested in them.

The Bhagavatam describes several of these shaktyavesha avatars who were jivas that became empowered with some powers otherwise only found in Vishnu.

That bottom line is that no Siva is a jiva inasmuch as Siva is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

Shaktyavesha avatars do not fit in the jiva category.

Shiva writes:

"Those are from Prabhupada's Bhagavatam. The question of this thread was about the Gaudiya Vaisnava conception. Since Jiva Goswami is considered to be the greatest philosopher and was one of the founding acharyas in Gaudiya Vaisnavism his opinion certainly should be considered as representative of Gaudiya theology. I already quoted his opinion on this topic, he clearly states what I have stated: two different Shivas, one Vishnu tattva, the other not. Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura said the same exact thing and added that a jiva fills the position of the deva Shiva. He is also considered a major acharya for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said, "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was the protector, guardian, and acarya during the middle period (1600-1700) of the historical development of Gaudiya Vaisnavism."

You failed to answer where you are getting your quotes from Jiva Goswami and who it is that translated the verses.

end quote

***********************************************************

You failed to answer where you are getting your quotes from Jiva Goswami and who it is that translated the verses.

As well, Jiva Goswami cannot go against the Bhagavatam which states that the Siva which drank the ocean of poison, the husband of Bhavani, is the Sadasiva.

You refuse to acknowledge your sources of your so-called quotes from Jiva Goswami.

It has nothing to do with "Srila Prabhupada's" Bhagavatam as you say, because it is not in the purport but in the original text that the husband of Bhavani (Parvati) is Sadasiva and many slokas in that chapter praise this Siva as being the Paramatma and many other statements to verify that this Siva is on the level of Vishnu tattva.

I will trust Srila Prabhupada's version of your outside source information.

I don't consider that Srila Prabhupada' purports are any less than those of any previous acharya or Goswami.

At this point I don't think you are interested in siddhanta as much as you are defending your pride.

You said that the husband of Parvati is a jiva and this is just not correct.

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

If it was not for Prabhupada's authorization, I would not have taken diksa from him.

*******************************

Prabhupada didn't authorize him to give diksha.

He appointed him a ritvik.

Your claim that Prabhupada authorized him to give diksha is a lie.

so, you are saying that Krishna is not pure Brahman because he has a form.

The conception of God and the conception of Absolute Truth are not on the same level. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam hits on the target of the Absolute Truth. The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies. There is no difference of opinion about the personal feature of God as the controller because a controller cannot be impersonal. Of course modern government, especially democratic government, is impersonal to some extent, but ultimately the chief executive head is a person, and the impersonal feature of government is subordinate to the personal feature. So without a doubt whenever we refer to control over others we must admit the existence of a personal feature. Because there are different controllers for different managerial positions, there may be many small gods. According to the Bhagavad-gītā any controller who has some specific extraordinary power is called a vibhūtimat sattva, or controller empowered by the Lord. There are many vibhūtimat sattvas, controllers or gods with various specific powers, but the Absolute Truth is one without a second. This Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam designates the Absolute Truth or the summum bonum as the paraḿ satyam.

The author of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Śrīla Vyāsadeva, first offers his respectful obeisances unto the paraḿ satyam (Absolute Truth), and because the paraḿ satyam is the ultimate source of all energies, the paraḿ satyam is the Supreme Person. The gods or the controllers are undoubtedly persons, but the paraḿ satyam from whom the gods derive powers of control is the Supreme Person. The Sanskrit word īśvara (controller) conveys the import of God, but the Supreme Person is called the parameśvara, or the supreme īśvara. The Supreme Person, or parameśvara, is the supreme conscious personality, and because He does not derive any power from any other source, He is supremely independent. In the Vedic literatures Brahmā is described as the supreme god or the head of all other gods like Indra, Candra and Varuṇa, but the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam confirms that even Brahmā is not independent as far as his power and knowledge are concerned. He received knowledge in the form of the Vedas from the Supreme Person who resides within the heart of every living being. That Supreme Personality knows everything directly and indirectly. Individual infinitesimal persons, who are parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality, may know directly and indirectly everything about their bodies or external features, but the Supreme Personality knows everything about both His external and internal features.

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Pure Brahman has no form because it can take any form it likes.

Can you quote shastric reference to support that claim?

What verse from shastra did you get that idea from?

But, those quotes seems to be at odds with Srimad Bhagavatam.

I don't know where you got those translation of if they are dependable.

Here is the best explanation that I can find. Srila Prabhupada says that Siva is simultaneously an expansion of Vishnu and jiva.

As the annihilator of the universe, the jiva aspect of Siva is acting.

It doesn't appear as Siva is two different types but simultaneously a combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

As pointed out in this purport, the original Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the consort of Rama-devi, so that makes the original Sadasiva a form of Vishnu that has not actually been transformed into the consort of Mahamaya.

When Rama-devi transforms into Mahamaya, then Sadasiva transforms into Rudra. That Rudra Siva is simulataneously jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

It appears that this combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva is what we know as Siva-tattva.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 6.79

ananta brahmāṇḍe rudra — sadāśivera aḿśa

guṇāvatāra teńho, sarva-deva-avataḿsa

SYNONYMS

ananta — unlimited; brahmāṇḍe — in the universes; rudra — Lord Śiva; sadāśivera aḿśa — part and parcel of Sadāśiva; guṇa-avatāra — an incarnation of a quality; teńho — he also; sarva-deva-avataḿsa — the ornament of all the demigods.

TRANSLATION

Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadāśiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a guṇāvatāra [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes.

PURPORT

There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Śiva. They are as follows: Ajaikapāt, Ahibradhna, Virūpākṣa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurūpa, Devaśreṣṭha Tryambaka, Sāvitra, Jayanta, Pināki and Aparājita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yājī. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahmā and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Śeṣa. Lord Śiva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guṇa he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and the Brahma-saḿhitā. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-saḿhitā the relationship between Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Lord Viṣṇu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Purāṇas it is found that Śiva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahmā and sometimes from the head of Viṣṇu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sańkarṣaṇa and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vāyu Purāṇa there is a description of Sadāśiva in one of the Vaikuṇṭha planets. That Sadāśiva is a direct expansion of Lord Kṛṣṇa's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadāśiva (Lord Śambhu) is an expansion from the Sadāśiva in the Vaikuṇṭha planets (Lord Viṣṇu) and that his consort, Mahāmāyā, is an expansion of Ramā-devī, or Lakṣmī. Mahāmāyā is the origin or birthplace of material nature.

In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

Which verse in particular are you paraphrasing?

Are we supposed to read the whole chapter to try and find what you think you found there?

Quote the verse which says that Lord Siva is not "God".

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

This all refers to Lord Siva the husband of Bhavani.

The Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the husband of Laksmi.

In other words, the Sadasiva of Vaikuntha is Maha-Vishnu.

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

 

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda.

Your statements are not consistent with Srimad Bhagavatam.

In 8th Canto ch. 7, the Siva who is the consort of Bhavani (Paravati) is described as being the all-pervasive Sadasiva:

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.19

 

tad ugra-vegaḿ diśi diśy upary adho

visarpad utsarpad asahyam aprati

bhītāḥ prajā dudruvur ańga seśvarā

arakṣyamāṇāḥ śaraṇaḿ sadāśivam

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat — that; ugra-vegam — very fierce and potent poison; diśi diśi — in all directions; upari — upward; adhaḥ — downward; visarpat — curling; utsarpat — going upward; asahyam — unbearable; aprati — uncontrollable; bhītāḥ — being very much afraid; prajāḥ — the residents of all the worlds; dudruvuḥ — moved here and there; ańga — O Mahārāja Parīkṣit; sa-īśvarāḥ — with the Supreme Lord; arakṣyamāṇāḥ — not being protected; śaraṇam — shelter; sadāśivam — unto the lotus feet of Lord Śiva.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O King, when that uncontrollable poison was forcefully spreading up and down in all directions, all the demigods, along with the Lord Himself, approached Lord Śiva [sadāśiva]. Feeling unsheltered and very much afraid, they sought shelter of him.

This is the guna-avatar Siva, husband of Parvati.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.20

 

vilokya taḿ deva-varaḿ tri-lokyā

bhavāya devyābhimataḿ munīnām

āsīnam adrāv apavarga-hetos

tapo juṣāṇaḿ stutibhiḥ praṇemuḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

vilokya — observing; tam — him; deva-varam — the best of the demigods; tri-lokyāḥ — of the three worlds; bhavāya — for the flourishing; devyā — with his wife, Bhavānī; abhimatam — accepted by; munīnām — great saintly persons; āsīnam — sitting together; adrau — from the top of Kailāsa Hill; apavarga-hetoḥ — desiring liberation; tapaḥ — in austerity; juṣāṇam — being served by them; stutibhiḥ — by prayers; praṇemuḥ — offered their respectful obeisances.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The demigods observed Lord Śiva sitting on the summit of Kailāsa Hill with his wife, Bhavānī, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The demigods offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

Bhavani is another name for Parvati.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.29

 

mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa

yais triḿśad-aṣṭottara-mantra-vargaḥ

yat tac chivākhyaḿ paramātma-tattvaḿ

deva svayaḿ-jyotir avasthitis te

 

SYNONYMS

 

mukhāni — faces; pañca — five; upaniṣadaḥ — Vedic literatures; tava — your; īśa — O lord; yaiḥ — by which; triḿśat-aṣṭa-uttara-mantra-vargaḥ — in the category of thirty-eight important Vedic mantras; yat — that; tat — as it is; śiva-ākhyam — celebrated by the name Śiva; paramātma-tattvam — which ascertain the truth about Paramātmā; deva — O lord; svayam-jyotiḥ — self-illuminated; avasthitiḥ — situation; te — of Your Lordship.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā.

 

PURPORT

 

The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Puruṣa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojāta, (4) Vāmadeva, and (5) Īśāna. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Śiva, who is therefore celebrated as Śiva or Mahādeva. Another reason why Lord Śiva is called Śiva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Viṣṇu, who is the Paramātmā. Because Lord Śiva is directly an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, he is situated as Lord Viṣṇu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patiḿ viśvasyātmeśvaraḿ śāśvatam. śivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Maheśvara, Śiva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.

All these slokas in the Bhagavatam were offered to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, the guna-avatar who is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

Lord Siva is only jiva in his form for destroying the universe at the time of pralaya.

In this prayer to Lord Siva in Srimad Bahgavatam, the Prajapatis declared that even Lord Brahma cannot understand Lord Siva.

So, understanding Siva-tattva fully is not possible.

Lord Siva is Yogisvara, so by his mystic powers he will forever remain mysterious.

Siva is Vishnu acting in connection with the material energy - Durga.

We have already seen slokas from the Bhagavat that establish that.

However, Siva is worshiped for the attainment of sayujya-mukti or the oneness with Brahman.

The Vedanta Sutra describes it:

"Many upanisadic passages describe liberation as the absorption of the soul into Brahman. This initial stage of the soul's entry into the effulgent Brahman sphere is called sayujya-mukti. Having attained the spiritual world, the soul may attain four higher kinds of mukti, all of which share the quality of unity established in sayujya-mukti. (Vs 4.4.4)

"The liberated soul is an enjoyer. In sayujya-mukti, the soul enjoys transcendental bliss without a spiritual body like a sleeping person enjoys dreams. The bliss of personal liberation, in which the soul manifests a spiritual body, is far greater. The desire of the liberated soul to enjoy is not materially motivated, for his pleasure is the mercy of the Supreme Lord." (Vs 4.4.13-14)

 

 

However, the Vaishnavas prefer Vishnu-bhakti or Krishna-bhakti for attainment of spiritual bodies in Vaikuntha of Goloka.

 

 

The Vaishnava desires servitude to Vishnu or Krishna in the Vaikuntha planets, they do not desire liberation of Mukti to become ONE with Brahman.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.34

 

tat tasya te sad-asatoḥ parataḥ parasya

nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane prabhavanti bhūmnaḥ

brahmādayaḥ kim uta saḿstavane vayaḿ tu

tat-sarga-sarga-viṣayā api śakti-mātram

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat — therefore; tasya — of that; te — of Your Lordship; sat-asatoḥ — of the living entities, moving and not moving; parataḥ — transcendentally situated; parasya — very difficult to understand; na — nor; añjaḥ — as it is; svarūpa-gamane — to approach your reality; prabhavanti — it is possible; bhūmnaḥ — O great one; brahma-ādayaḥ — even such persons as Lord Brahmā; kim uta — what to speak of others; saḿstavane — in offering prayers; vayam tu — as far as we are concerned; tat — of you; sarga-sarga-viṣayāḥ — creations of the creation; api — although; śakti-mātram — to our ability.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Even personalities like Lord Brahmā and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmā's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows, we have expressed our feelings.

So, yes, if you want sayujya-mukti, then worship Lord Siva.

If you prefer the concept of spiritual forms, spiritual love, spiritual sense pleasures etc. etc, then that is attained in worship of Vishnu or Krishna.

So, depending on what your spiritual goals are, you will find either Siva or Vishnu as supreme.

For attaining ekatva mukti in ONENESS with Brahman, then Siva is supreme God.

If you want to sport and play and frolic in spiritual paradise, then you most certainly would find worship of Krishna to be best.

Siva worship leads to ONENESS with Brahman.

Vaishnavas consider such sayujya mukti to be totally undesirable.

So, which God is greater?

Depends on whether you want ONENESS with Brahman or eternal lila with Krishna in Vrindavan.

The term "demigod" is wrong here. Srila Prabhupada selectively translated the word "deva" (root of the English word "divine") as "demigod" when it referred to anyone except Krishna. However, there are three places at least in the Bhagavad-Gita (11:38, 11:44 and 11:45) where the word "deva" (or Adideva in 11:38) is used to address Lord Krishna. Srila Prabhupada doesn't translate "deva" as "demigod" here, as it doesn't fit his theology. He instead translates it as "Lord".

 

A demigod is the offspring of a human and a God. Greek heroes Perseus and Hercules were demigods, as while they both had mortal mothers, their father was the God Zeus. Lord Shiva and none of the Hindu devas fall into this category. The only real "demigods" mentioned in the Hindu scriptures are the five Pandava brothers, who were born from relationships between gods (Indra, Yama, Vayu and the Aswins) and Kunti and Madri (humans).

 

Please do not call Lord Shiva a "demigod". It is very insulting.

<table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> deva</td> <td valign="top">mf(%{i})n. (fr. 3. %{div}) heavenly , divine (also said of terrestrial things of high excellence) RV. AV. VS. S3Br. (superl. m. %{deva4-tama} RV. iv , 22 , 3 &c. ; f. %{devi-tamA} , ii , 41 , 16) ; m. (according to Pa1n2. 3-3 , 120 %{de4va}) a deity , god RV. &c.&c. ; (rarely applied to) evil demons AV. iii , 15 , 5 TS. iii , 5 , 4 , 1 ; (pl. the gods as the heavenly or shining ones ; %{vi4zve@devA4s} , all the gods RV. ii , 3 , 4 &c. , or a partic. class of deities [see under %{vi4zva}] , often reckoned as 33 , either 11 for each of the 3 worlds RV. i , 139 , 11 &c. [cf. %{tri-daza}] , or 8 Vasus , 11 Rudras , and 12 A1dityas [to which the 2 As3vins must be added] Br. ; cf. also DivyA7v. 68 ; with Jainas 4 classes , viz. %{bhavanA7dhI7za} , %{vyantara} , %{jyotiSka} , and %{vaimAnika} ; %{devA4nAm@pa4tnyas} , the wives of the gods RV. VS. Br. [cf. %{deva-patnI} below]) [492,3] ; N. of the number 33 (see above) Gan2it. ; N. of Indra as the god of the sky and giver of rain MBh. R. &c. ; a cloud L. ; (with Jainas) the 22nd Arhat of the future Ut-sarpin2i1 ; the image of a god , an idol Vishn2. ; a god on earth or among men , either Bra1hman , priest RV. AV. (cf. %{bhU-d-}) , or king , prince (as a title of honour , esp. in the voc. `" your majesty "' or `" your honour "' ; also ifc. e.g. %{zrI-harSa-d-} , %{vikramA7Gka-d-} , king S3ri1-hñharsha or VikrñVikrama7n3ka , and in names as %{puruSo7ttama-d-} [lit. having Vishn2u as one's deity ; cf. %{atithi-d-} , %{AcArya-d-} , %{pitR-d-} , %{mAtR-d-}] ; rarely preceding the name e.g. %{deva-caNDamahAsena} Katha1s. xiii , 48) Ka1v. Pan5c. &c. (cf. %{kSiti-} , %{nara-} , &c.) ; a husband's brother (cf. %{devR} and %{devara}) W. ; a fool , dolt L. ; a child L. ; a man following any partic. line or business L. ; a spearman , lancer L. ; emulation , wish to excel or overcome L. ; sport , play L. ; a sword Gal. ; N. of men VP. ; of a disciple of Na1ga7rjuna MWB. 192 ; dimin. for %{devadatta} Pa1n2. 5-3 , 83 Va1rtt.4 Sch. ; (n. L.) an organ of sense Mun2d2Up. iii , 1 , 8 ; 2 , 7 ; (%{A}) f. Hibiscus Mutabilis or Marsilia Quadrifolia ; (%{I4}) , f. see s.v. [Cf. Lat. {di1vus} , {deus} ; Lit. {de14vas} ; Old Pruss. {deiwas}.]</td></tr></tbody></table>

Srila Prabhupada substituted "demigods" for "gods" because Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not pantheism and the term "gods" has always been associated with pantheism.

It was a very wise semantic device that helps to distinguish The Gaudiya monotheism from the largely polytheism that Hinduism is mainly known for in the western world and even in Asia.

Srila Prabhupada's use of the term "demigod" was a very ingenius adaptation that demonstrates the Gaudiya Vaishnava monotheistim and separates it from the polytheistic Hindusim.

There is only ONE God in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, hence Srila Prabhupada translates "deva" as demigods so as to try and prevent any misunderstanding that there are many gods and not ONE supreme God.

shri sonic yogi what about this upanishad

do your words apply here also

 

 

Rudra-Hridaya Upanishad

 

 

That is a Shaiva Upanisad and it is not a principal Upanisad that even Sankaracarya commented on.

Shankar acknowledged 10 principle Upanisads for the basis of his Advaita Vedanta.

1. Aitareya (ṚV)

2. Bṛhadāraṇyaka (ŚYV)

3. Taittirīya (KYV)

4. Chāndogya (SV)

5. Kena (SV)

6. Īṣa (ŚYV)

7. Śvetāśvatara(KYV)

8. Kaṭha (KYV)

9. Muṇḍaka (AV)

10. Māṇḍūkya (AV)

11. Praśna (AV)

As such, the Upanisad that you have quoted is not a mukhya Upanisad that Shankar commented on in formulating his Advaita doctrine.

Different Upanisads were meant for different classes of people.

For those who could not follow the Mukhya Upanisads, there are are the Shaiva Upanisads.

In the Muktika Upanishad's list of 108 Upanishads the first 10 are grouped as mukhya "principal". 21 are grouped as Sāmānya Vedānta "common Vedanta", 23 as Sannyāsa, 9 as Shākta, 13 as Vaishnava, 14 as Shaiva and 17 as Yoga Upanishads.

There are Upanisads specifically meant for those souls who cannot adopt the sattvic Vishnu worship. For them, there are the Shaiva oriented Upanisads aimed at developing their worship of Siva.

Shankar knew he could not establish his Advaita siddhanta on the basis of Shaiva Upanisads, so he commented only on the Mukhya Upanisads listed above.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

Here is a nice verse that reveals some valuable insight into the greatness of Lord Siva.

Lord Siva is very dear to the Gaudiya Vaishnavas. He is well loved, venerated and in fact worshiped.

The Gaudiya acharyas have several times stated that Siva-tattva is something that is very difficult to explain because of the very narrow difference between Siva and Vishnu.

Siva-tattva is perhaps the most enigmatic concept in all of Hindu theology as there is the full form of Siva-tattva and partial manifestations of Siva tattva in the form of the Rudras who are most often empowerd Jivas.

Siva is a tattva. There are full forms of that tattva and there are partial manifestation of Siva-tattva. So, the subject of Siva-tattva is not something that is easily dealt with in a few forums posts. Siva-tattva is inconceivable to the conditioned living beings.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21

 

śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ

 

deva-deva mahā-deva

bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana

trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs

trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

 

SYNONYMS

 

śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

 

PURPORT

 

Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu.

is it ? what might be the logic behind this sloka qouted in charitamrita from bhaktirasamritasindhu , 4/73 --

 

"byamohaya charaacharasya jagataste ............................................

..................................vivechanavyatikaram niteshu nishchiyate "

 

which translates as :

 

let the puranas and the agamas which glorify their respective gods speculate and continue doing that till the end of kalpa but all agamas eventually points out that lord vishnu is the supreme god.

 

if many other puranas and agamas differ then how can this decision be so comfortably arrived ? does that mean that only vaishnva puranas are to be read ? secondly this gives the highest position to vishnu not krishna . then agin in GV it is krishna who is highest and has four gunas more than vishnu(venumadhuri , lilamadhuri etc etc) . now that creates a inconsistency .

 

lastly i would like to mention that i just translated it from the original bengali translation and so there might be some small mistakes . but the central theme of the sloka is intact . i would be gratefull if someone provides a iskcon or gaudiya math translation of the same sloka(20th chapter , 143 )

The point is that Vishnu is the Supreme God in regards to this material world that is administrated by the Trimurti of Brahma, Siva and Vishnu.

Krishna is not involved in administrating the acit-jagat. In fact Krishna is not involved in administrating the cit-jagat as that is also done by the Catur-Vyuha - Vasudeva, Sankarsan, Pradyumna and Anniruddha.

Krishna only enjoys lila on his planet of Krsnaloka.

So, this statement you are grappling with is in regards to who is the supreme God of the material world. It is the matter of amongst the Tri-murti which one is supreme. The Vaishnava scholars and devotees have presented many Vedic references to support the supremecy of Vishnu.

Even in Krishnaloka, Krishna is not understood to be supreme God. On Krishnaloka they worship the Lord Narayana as God as the inhabitants there are under the spell of yogamaya and forgetful of Krishna's supreme Godship.

The Gaudiya acharyas and Goswamis have shown with authoritative evidence that Krishna is the source of Narayana, but even in Krishnaloka they are caused to forget that by yogamaya so they can enjoy intimate love with Krishna devoid of awe and reverence of his supreme Godship.

So, the very religious people of Vrindavan worship Lord Narayana as God in awe and reverence. They have the intimate personal love with Krishna.

So, in that sense, even on Krsnaloka, Lord Narayana is thought to be God.

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.7.19

 

bhumau nidhaya tam gopi

vismita bhara-pidita

maha-purusham adadhyau

jagatam asa karmasu

 

SYNONYMS

 

bhumau -- on the ground; nidhaya -- placing; tam -- the child; gopi -- mother Yasoda; vismita -- being astonished; bhara-pidita -- being aggrieved by the weight of the child; maha-purusham -- Lord Vishnu, Narayana; adadhyau -- took shelter of; jagatam -- as if the weight of the whole world; asa -- engaged herself; karmasu -- in other household affairs.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Feeling the child to be as heavy as the entire universe and therefore being anxious, thinking that perhaps the child was being attacked by some other ghost or demon, the astonished mother Yasoda put the child down on the ground and began to think of Narayana. Foreseeing disturbances, she called for the brahmanas to counteract this heaviness, and then she engaged in her other household affairs. She had no alternative than to remember the lotus feet of Narayana, for she could not understand that Krishna was the original source of everything.

 

PURPORT

 

Mother Yasoda did not understand that Krishna is the heaviest of all heavy things and that Krishna rests within everything (mat-sthani sarva-bhutani). As confirmed in Bhagavad-gita (9.4), maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina: Krishna is everywhere in His impersonal form, and everything rests upon Him. Nonetheless, na caham teshv avasthitah: Krishna is not everywhere. Mother Yasoda was unable to understand this philosophy because she was dealing with Krishna as His real mother by the arrangement of yogamaya. Not understanding the importance of Krishna, she could only seek shelter of Narayana for Krishna's safety and call the brahmanas to counteract the situation.

Now I am sure the purpose of this forum is to insult united hindu religion,not once but many times different members came up and raised such issues.India suffered a lot due to their own people rather than from invaders(turks,muslims,mughals etc),if we cannot unite no one can save us and here you chaps are giving wrong signals to your own soul each time.Tell me one thing if Mine or your God whom we are worshiping is lovable and respectable to us what is the need to discuss anything related to a word from english called Godhead?What is the need to prove him superior each time?Just carry on what we are suppose to do isn't it but here case is different-this clearly tells that you are not satisfied by your worship or your God.Bitter truth this is.

I eat veggie food,few others eat non veg food but color of our blood is Red and not green for veggies or yellow for non veg food takers,I shall not take names here but what you are doing is not good for your own soul and that I underline.

Perhaps because of such mentality foreigners ruled India coz we are not united,open your eyes else no one can save you.

How India can be united? In India there are hundreds of different languages.

In India there are at least 29 languages that have more than 1 million people.

India has as many religions are there are gods and goddesses.

India has more cults and sects than any country in the world.

The British united India and then established self-rule and divided India and Pakistan.

The only thing that can unite India is a secular democratic government as the British helped establish upon granting India self-rule.

There are too many religions and languages in India to be united by anything except a democratic government which is the gift of the British.

The British conquered India but came to love India and it's people.

If not for the British, India would be ruled by Muslims.

So, at least you can thank the British for that.

Shambhu is the glance of Lord Maha-Vishnu. When Maha-Vishnu glances at prakriti, the portion of Maha-Vishnu that contacts Durga Devi is Shambhu.

Maha-Vishnu cannot have any connection with Durga as Durga is the material energy. In order for Maha-Vishnu to contact Durga he must become Shambhu.

As Maha-Vishnu glances at Durga he transforms into Sadasiva or Shambhu.

In so doing he transforms into Sadasiva, but that Sadasiva cannot then again function as Vishnu.

Vishnu becomes Shambhu, but Shambhu cannot become Vishnu.

As well, Siva cannot award Vaikuntha mukti.

Only Vishnu can award that.

Siva can only award Mahesha dhama mukti which does not contain any of the ecstacies of Hari bhakti-rasa.

Mahesha Dhama mukti involves muktananda and asta-siddhi, but it does not include prema-rasa that is intrinsic to Hari Dhama mukti.

The highest spiritual ecstacies can only be eperienced by the Krishna bhaktas of Goloka Dhama. The Hari bhakti rasa of Goloka is millions of times greater than muktananda of Mahesha Dham of Lord Shambhu which exists between the Devi Dhama and Vaikuntha Dhama.

There is higher spiritual ecstacy beyond mukti.

Beyond mukti is Hari bhakti rasa which is much sweeter and more flavorful than mukti.

Mukti is like pure water.

Hari-bhakti is like mango juice.

No Lust in Lord Siva

The following history is another example of naravata-gata-vicara, or madhurya-gata-vicara. There is also some tattva-gata-vicara here, and altogether it is a nectar cup-full of madhurya (sweetness) and tattva (philosophical truth) - tasting very good.

Lord Siva is immensely powerful and he has no lust. He may even be naked, and his wife Parvati may also be sitting naked on his lap, but they have no lusty desires. If an ordinary girl and boy stay close together, especially without clothes, lust will enter their hearts. However, this falldown does not take place in the hearts of Lord Siva and Parvati-devi under any circumstance.

In this regard, a transcendental pastime is described in the Sixth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam. Lord Siva was once giving a lecture in an assembly of great saintly persons, Parvati was sitting on his lap, and both of them were completely naked. At that time the exalted devotee King Citraketu came and said in a friendly way, "Just see the position in which you are giving your lecture." Parvati thought that he was criticizing Lord Siva. Disturbed by the thought that anyone would think Lord Siva has lusty desires in his heart, she cursed him.

King Citraketu was on friendly terms with Lord Siva, and because Citraketu's Guru is also Mula-Sankarsana, he and Siva were god-brothers. He never meant to say that lust was in Siva's heart. He was simply saying that this was not the standard way to deliver a lecture.

Lord Siva chastized Parvati and said, "Why did you curse him? He is an exalted devotee. Look at his advancement in bhakti. Although he is quite competent to revoke your curse and curse you in retaliation, he has readily accepted your curse. This is his greatness - this is the behavior of a Vaisnava."

Lust cannot remain near Lord Siva. Neither Lord Sadasiva nor His partial manifestation of Siva who stays with Parvati have lust in their hearts. When Kamadeva, Cupid, once came to disturb Lord Siva's meditation, Siva simply opened his third eye and burned him to ashes.

How could it happen then, that Lord Siva was attracted to the beautiful form of Mohini-murti? Mohini is an incarnation of Lord Krsna Himself, and He can do anything. It was Lord Krsna who personally created the attraction within Lord Siva's heart, and He who showed him this form of Mohini. In the course of serving Krsna's pastimes, His internal bewildering energy, yogamaya, is so strong that it can do anything.

[*Endnote 1: mahat-tattva: the twenty-four elements are the five gross elements, the three

subtle elements, ten senses, five sense objects, and the total material cause.

Endnote 2: "Thus by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Narayana, who is transcendental to all material qualities, Lord Siva was saved from being killed by a demon. Anyone who hears this history with faith and devotion is certainly liberated from material entanglement as well as from the clutches of his enemies." (Krsna, Chapter 88)

Endnote 3: Sukadeva Gosvami assured King Pariksit that the narration of the fight between Lord Siva and Lord Krsna is not at all inauspicious, like ordinary fights. On the contrary, if one remembers in the morning the narration of this fight between Lord Krsna and Lord Siva, and takes pleasure in the victory of Lord Krsna, he will never experience defeat anywhere in his struggle of life." (Krsna, Chapter 63)

Endnote 4: Lord Nityananda said, "To the west of the Alakananda River see Kasi, where the followers of Siva and his consort endeavor for liberation. This Navadvipa Kasi, however, is superior to the other Kasi. Here, Siva is always dancing and chanting the name of Gaura , begging his followers to accept gaura-bhakti. The sannyasis who live for a thousand years in Kasi may attain liberation through the cultivation of jnana, but here the devotees kick away that liberation as they dance and chant the name of Gauranga. While leaving the body here, living entities are delivered by Lord Siva, who chants the name of Gauranga in their ears. This dhama is thus called Maha-Varanasi, for here there is no fear of death." (Sri Navadvipa Mahatmya by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

 

Service in Human-like Pastimes

Lord Ramacandra's worship of Lord Siva is an example of naravata-gata-vicara - a sweet, human-like pastime. As stated earlier, Rama played the role of an ordinary human being who had to perform the difficult task of crossing the ocean to reach Lanka, and He worshiped Lord Siva for the power to do this.

Lord Rama established a linga of Ramesvara Mahadeva and began worshiping him, thinking, "By Lord Siva's mercy I can cross the sea." Actually He was powerful enough to personally jump across the ocean in a second, but He was playing a role to inspire ordinary people. The common people present considered that Ramesvara Mahadeva was in fact the lord of Rama, and that was why his name was Ramesvara. The demigods then appeared and declared, "Ramesvara Mahadeva and Rama are both the same. There is no difference between them. Both are isvara; both are God, the Supreme Lord. Ordinary people think only that Ramesvara is the lord of Rama, but they are not intelligent. It is not like that." At that moment Lord Siva manifested from the linga and said, "No. Try to understand this truth. Ramesvara means ‘He whose Lord is Rama.' Rama is my Lord!"

The pastimes of Lord Rama are found in Ramayana, Srimad-Bhagavatam, the Puranas and Rama-carita-manasa, and they take place in a previous Age, called Treta-yuga. The demonic king Ravana had kidnapped Lord Rama's wife, Sita devi, and taken Her to Lanka. Before Rama knew where Sita had been taken, He was weeping profusely, and Laksmana was trying to console Him. The more Laksmana tried to pacify Him, however, the more bitterly He wept. In this state of mind, He was beseeching the trees and creatures of the forest, and even the Godavari River. He appealed to the trees of Panjatavi forest, "O Panjatavi, have you seen Sita? Where has She gone? O deer, have you seen Sita? O Godavari, have you seen My dear Sita? Why has She left Me?" Lord Rama became maddened from inconsolable grief.

At this time Lord Siva and his wife Sati came to Dandakaranya Forest, where Lord Rama had been living with Sita and His brother Laksmana for fourteen years, following the order of His father, King Dasaratha. Siva was thus present to witness Lord Rama's divine pastimes, and seeing them, he was moved; his heart melted. He offered full obeisances, with all the limbs of his body touching the ground, and glorified Rama: "Oh! These pastimes are so beautiful and marvelous that they will melt the heart of anyone who sees them." He then circumambulated the outer precincts of that area, weeping due to the transcendental emotions of grief in separation exhibited in his Lord's pastimes.

Offering his final respects, Siva was ready to return to Kailasa, when Sati asked him, "My dear husband, to whom are you offering obeisances?" Lord Siva replied, "Sri Rama is my worshipful Deity. I worship Him always." Sati said, "I see that Rama is like an ordinary man weeping for his wife. Even I know where Sita is, but He does not know? Why is He grieving? He appears to be a weak person. Is He not strong enough to bring Sita back? He must be an ordinary man, not God. Why are you honoring Him so?"

 

"You are ignorant," Lord Siva told his doubting wife. "You do not understand that Rama is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He told her that if she did not believe him she could conduct a test of some sort, to determine Sri Rama's position.

Lord Siva rested under a banyan tree a little distance away, and Sati, by her inherent mystic power, changed to a form like Sita's. She went to the area where Sri Rama was piteously searching for Sita. She thought that if she would appear before Rama as Sita, He would come and embrace her in joyous relief, believing that He had found His wife. However, although she appeared before him again and again, He ignored her each time. He simply looked away. Finally He said to her, "Mother, why are you roaming alone here in the forest? Where is your husband, Siva?"

Sati became astonished and fearful, and wondered how Rama knew who she really was. She knelt in reverence, and at that time she no longer saw the trees, plants, and wildlife of the forest as before. She saw Sita-Rama everywhere and in everything. Wherever she looked in the forest - here, there and everywhere - she saw only Sita-Rama, Sita-Rama, Sita-Rama.

In this manner, Sri Rama showed Sati that He and Sita are eternally inseparable, that He was performing this dramatic pastime to captivate the minds of human beings by its remembrance, and that He is, in fact, the Personality of Godhead. She reflected, "My husband is never ignorant. He was right and I was wrong." Rising to her feet, she saw that Rama was still there alone in the forest with Laksmana, weeping, "Oh Sita, where are You, where are You?"

Then, reassuming her own form, she returned to the spot where Siva was waiting under the banyan tree. He asked her, "Did you test Him to see who He is?"

Sati lied, "Most respected husband, I believed you; so there was no need to test Him."

Lord Siva saw in a trance what had actually happened and silently vowed, "Sati has taken the form of Sita, my mother; therefore she is no longer my wife. She is now my mother, and from now on I will treat her as such."

When he made this vow, the demigods at once showered flowers from heaven, and they praised him, "You have made a remarkable vow."

Sati asked, "What vow did you make?"

Siva remained silent.

The bona fide disciple always has faith in his self-realized guru. Lord Siva was the Guru of Sati, but she had not believed him when he told her that Rama is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If a disciple does not obey his gurudeva, his bhakti and spiritual life will diminish. If a disciple lies to his gurudeva, he again goes to hell.

When Lord Siva and Sati-devi returned to their cottage in Kailasa, Siva placed her seat facing him. In Vedic culture a wife sits on the left side of her husband and a mother, respected as guru, sits in front of her son, facing him.

A disciple does not offer obeisance to his gurudeva from his guru's right or left side, but always in front of him. A true disciple does not remain silent, but respectfully asks relevant questions of his guru and serves him. He does not ask questions in a challenging mood, but rather to learn. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.34):

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."]

Lord Siva entered a trance for thousands of years, and Sati felt severe separation from him. She thought, "Siva has left me. He is treating me like his mother because I took the form of Sita. As long as I am in this body he will not accept me as his wife, so I will have to give up this body."

After some time, Sati's father Daksa, the son of Lord Brahma and great progenitor of the universe, began a sacrifice. Although every sacrifice is intended to please the Supreme Lord Visnu, all the demigods, especially Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and the other principal demigods, are invited and take part. However, Lord Siva was not invited to Daksa's sacrifice.

The chaste Sati heard the heavenly denizens, who were flying in the sky, speaking about the great sacrifice being performed by her father. She saw that the wives of the heavenly denizens, dressed in fine clothing, were coming from all directions and were going to the sacrifice. She approached her husband and said, "My dear Lord, your father-in-law is now performing a great sacrifice. All the demigods who were invited by him are going. If you desire, we may also go."

Lord Siva warned her not to go, due to her father's enmity and envy towards him - an enmity that had begun long before, in a former Age. Lord Siva now remembered his father-in-law's harsh words spoken at that time. Siva had come to Daksa's council, where Daksa was being honored by many leaders of the universe. Daksa's daughter was married to Lord Siva, so he considered Siva to be like his son. He offered obeisances to Brahma because Brahma was his father, but he did not show any respect to Siva. Lord Brahma welcomed Daksa, but Siva was absorbed in meditation and chanting the maha-mantra: "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare."

Insulted by Siva's apparent neglect and considering himself Siva's superior, Daksa publically criticized him. Many incidents took place as a result of that, and Siva returned to Kailasa. Previous to this, Daksa had often criticized Siva, being disturbed that his daughter had married such an ‘inferior person,' but after this incident he considered Siva his enemy. Lord Siva, on the other hand, had never felt enmity towards Daksa.

Now Lord Siva told Sati, "A woman can go without an invitation to see her guru or her father and mother, but if her father thinks that her husband is his enemy, then she should not go to see him. You know that your father thinks I am his enemy, although I have never considered him as such."

Despite her husband's words, Sati was determined to go. She went, but upon her arrival she observed Daksa dishonoring him. She angrily condemned her father and glorified Lord Siva in front of all present. Then, while meditating on Lord Siva's holy lotus feet, she gave up her body in a mystic fire that manifested from her heart.

By quitting her body, Sati was able to disconnect herself from her offensive father and transfer herself to another body in order to associate with Lord Siva without that contamination. However, her main motive was to become free from the result of her own offenses, and again be accepted as Lord Siva's beloved wife. In her next life she took birth as Parvati, the daughter of the Himalayas. In that birth she performed austerities for many years and achieved her desired goal.

Here we see that Siva's worshipable Deity is Rama, and because Sati took the form of Sita-devi, he left her. He is a chaste Vaisnava, always serving Lord Krsna and Lord Rama. Sati-devi is also a pure devotee. She is the Supreme Lord's divine energy, but she was playing a role in order to give lessons to ordinary persons.

Both Siva and Sati served in Lord Rama's human-like pastimes. Ravana had not actually taken the real Sita. He was not able to touch her. He could only take a maya-sita. The real Sita, the transcendental potency of Rama, was taken away and protected by the lord of fire, Agnideva. Rama's crying and asking each and every plant, tree, mountain and river, "Where is my Sita?" was an exhibition of His human-like pastimes.

The great saint Tulsidasa has written in his Sri Rama-carita-manasa that we should accept Sri Siva-Parvati as our Guru, and they will give us love for the lotus feet of Rama. Those who worship Siva as an independent lord are like Vrkasura. They want to have sense gratification with Krsna's potency. Instead of becoming Vrkasura, we should become devotees, and consider Siva-Parvati as our Guru in the matter of devotion to the Supreme Lord.

Consider further the identity of Lord Siva's worshipable Deity. Siva's mantra is Rama, and he always chants the holy name of Rama. To whom does this refer? Although this also refers to Sri Sita-Rama, the name he actually chants is that of Mula-Sankarsana, Balarama, the first expansion of Lord Krsna. Sri Ramacandra is also an expansion of mula-Rama (the original Rama) - Balarama - but the factual worshipable Deity of Lord Siva is Balarama.

Ultimately, in the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, Rama does not refer to Dasaratha's son Rama, nor to Parasurama or Balarama. Lord Ramacandra, Lord Parasurama and Lord Balarama are all manifestations of Sri Radha-ramana.

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare,

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

The meaning of Rama here is Radha-ramana, Sri Krsna who engages in ‘ramana' with Radha. "Ramana" means playing or enjoying. Krsna enjoys playful pastimes with Radharani, and He is therefore called Ramana or Rama.

 

Service in Pastimes of Majesty

The historical narrations that follow are examples of aisvarya-gata-vicara, Lord Siva's relationship with Krsna from the perspective of Krsna's majesty. Revealed in Srimad-Bhagavatam, these transcendental histories demonstrate Lord Siva's dependence on Him. They also further reveal that when Siva gives benedictions to Krsna's enemies, he does so to assist in the Supreme Lord's pastimes, which are performed for the benefit of all beings.

Siva's Dependence

Srimad-Bhagavatam tells of a demon named Vrkasura who, desiring to enjoy Lord Siva's wife, Parvati, performed severe austerities to ‘please' Lord Siva. When Lord Siva appeared before him to grant him a benediction, Vrkasura expressed his desire that as soon as he would touch the head of anyone, that person's head would immediately split open and he would die.

Lord Siva granted this benediction, and Vrkasura immediately rushed forward to use it against Lord Siva.

Siva asked, "What are you doing?" He replied, "Now I am applying my benediction." He did not say, "I want Parvati." He simply looked at Parvati and then ran towards Lord Siva. Fearful, Siva ran away, and Vrkasura immediately chased after him. Lord Siva was attired in a deerskin, which fell off, and then his damaru drum also fell. He kept running, however, and he remembered his Lord. Who was the Lord he remembered? It was Sri Krsna. This is aisvarya-gata-vicara.

Lord Siva fled from the land to the sky and from the sky to other planets, until he reached the limits of the universe, but Vrkasura continued to chase him. The predominating deities of higher planets, such as Brahma, Indra and Candra, were not able to save him from the impending danger, and finally he approached Krsna's incarnation, Lord Visnu in Svetadvipa.

In order to protect His devotee, Lord Visnu appeared as a perfect brahmacari, and the effulgence emanating from His body was attractive to both Siva and the demon. After stopping Vrkasura by offering obeisances to him, and winning his confidence by speaking sweet and reassuring words, Lord Visnu asked, "Why are you running after Siva?"

Vrkasura replied, "He has given me the benediction that when I put my hand on someone's head it will split open. Now I will use the benediction on him."

Lord Visnu in the dress of a brahmacari said, "You are very foolish. You believe the benediction of this man who smokes ganja, takes all types of intoxication and lives in crematoriums? Do you believe that he is authorized and powerful enough to give benedictions? His benediction will prove futile. He is just fooling you. You are running after him, but in the end you will find that his benediction is ineffective. Try it on yourself; put your hand on your head. You will see that nothing happens."

Vrkasura agreed, "Yes, I will try."

In this way, by Lord Visnu's sweet words and by the expansion of His illusory energy, the demon became bewildered. He forgot the power of Lord Siva and his benediction. He therefore put his hand on his own head, it immediately split open, and he died. This pastime gives evidence that Lord Siva is not independent; his worshipable Deity is Krsna. [*See Endnote 2]

Siva's Benefactor

All the pastimes performed by Siva are meant to teach everyone about Sri Krsna's supremacy, and to inspire everyone to serve Him and take shelter of Him. The following history is another example of this.

The demigods once fought with the demons and defeated them. The demons then took shelter of their leader, Maya Danava, who then prepared three mystic airplane-like residences for them. The demons thus began to vanquish all the planetary systems.

Thereafter, when the demons began to destroy the higher planetary systems, the rulers of those planets went to Lord Siva, surrendered unto him and said, "Dear Lord, we demigods are about to be vanquished. We are your followers. Kindly save us."

Lord Siva reassured them and said, "Do not be afraid." He fixed his arrows to his bow and released them toward the three residences occupied by the demons, and all the demons were killed. The great mystic Maya Danava then dropped the bodies of the demons into a nectarean well he had created, making the demons return to life and become practically invincible.

Siva became very worried. Seeing this, Lord Krsna in His form as Lord Visnu considered how to help him destroy the demons. Lord Visnu became a cow and Lord Brahma became a calf, and they entered the residences and drank all the nectar in the well. Then, by His personal potency of religion, knowledge, renunciation, opulence, austerity, education and so on, Krsna equipped Lord Siva with everything he needed for the battle. He manifested a chariot, a charioteer, a flag, horses, elephants, a bow, a shield and arrows, and Lord Siva sat down on the chariot to fight. He destroyed three residences of the demons, the inhabitants of the higher planets glorified and worshipped him, and he became known as Tripurari, the annihilator of the three dwellings of the demons.

So don't fear. Krsna will save you if you offer yourself to Him. He Himself has promised this in Bhagavad-gita. If you hand over your complete responsibility in life to Him - not only your bodily maintenance, but your intelligence, your senses and everything else you possess - He will take full care and responsibility for you. Don't fear. No suffering or sorrow of any kind will be able to touch you. Moreover, you will be able to enter the realm of bhakti and be happy forever.

Siva's Worshipable Deity

Further evidence of Lord Siva's relationship with Krsna in the Supreme Lord's pastimes of majesty is found in the history of Aniruddha. Aniruddha is the grandson of Lord Krsna, and he wanted to marry the daughter of Banasura, a demonic person who was a staunch devotee of Lord Siva. By the blessings of Lord Siva, Banasura had one thousand arms, and he served Lord Siva with all of them. He assisted Siva's famous dancing by rhythmically beating drums with his one thousand hands, and he thus received the benediction of protection from his enemies.

Krsna was informed by Sri Narada that Banasura and his army had fought with and arrested Aniruddha for intimately meeting with Banasura's daughter, Usa. Therefore, in order to save Aniruddha, He called upon His own army, the Yadu dynasty, and advanced on Banasura's city. When Banasura saw Lord Krsna's army, he immediately ordered his men to fight.

Lord Siva arrived there at that time, but instead of praying to his Lord, he apparently took the side of his own devotee, Banasura. He personally began fighting with Krsna as Banasura's commander-in-chief. He shot many weapons at Krsna, including his Pasupata-astra and his ultimate weapon, the Siva-jvara, but all of them failed.

During the battle, Banasura showered his weapons upon Sri Krsna with his one thousand arms. Krsna then cut off his arms with His Sudarsana cakra, leaving him with only four. Finally Lord Siva, realizing that he was helpless to save his devotee, surrendered to Lord Krsna and offered his heartfelt prayers.[*See Endnote 3]

After hearing Siva's prayers, Lord Krsna told him that because Banasura was the son of Bali Maharaja and the great-grandson of Prahlada Maharaja, and because he was favored by Lord Siva himself, He would not only spare Banasura's life, but would give him immortality.

Siva Takes Shelter

According to Srimad-Bhagavatam and Skanda Purana, when Krsna resided in Dvaraka, He often assumed His form as four-handed Vasudeva. In fact, He was famous there as such. At that time there was a king named Paundraka, who had attached two artificial arms on his body and declared, "Krsna is not the four-handed Vasudeva. I am that Vasudeva." He sent a messenger to Sri Krsna with the declaration, "Stop claiming to be four-handed Vasudeva. I am He." After Lord Krsna and His royal family laughed for a considerable time, the Lord sent a reply to the challenge and prepared to fight.

The King of Kasi was a staunch devotee of Lord Siva, and he took the side of Paundraka Vasudeva. He had previously received a benediction from Lord Siva to be able to defeat Krsna in combat, but in this battle he was not only defeated, but killed. With the assistance of His Sudarsana cakra Sri Krsna killed Paundraka, and by His arrows He killed the king of Kasi. Having cut off the head of the king, He then arranged to throw it into the city of Kasi.

The King had a son named Sudaksina, who was determined to avenge the death of his father. Sudaksina thus worshiped the lord of Kasi, Visvanatha - Lord Siva - who then instructed him to perform a special ritualistic ceremony that calls forth a fire demon for the purpose of killing one's enemy. Lord Siva also sanctioned his ghostly companions to accompany the fire demon, and Dvaraka then fell under attack.

Krsna called for his Sudarsana cakra, which froze the demon and forced him to return to Kasi and destroy his creators. Moreover, following behind the demon, the Sudarsana cakra burned the entire city to ashes.

At that time even Lord Siva himself had to run from the city. Where his deerskin fell, he did not know. He also left his trident and everything else, including his wife, and quickly fled. He arrived at a place in Navadvipa [*See Endnote 3] called Harihara-ksetra, and there he took shelter of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. [*See Endnote 5] From Navadvipa he went to Ekamra-kanana (now Bhuvanesvara) near Puri, in Orissa, where he took shelter of Sri Krsna in His form as Lord Jagannatha. This pastime is aisvarya-gata-vicara, and it also reveals that the worshipable Deity of Lord Siva is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, or Sri Krsna.