Sonic Yogi

If I remember correctly, Srila Prabhupada bathed in Radha kunda on a number of occasions. So, I don't know of anywhere that it says that cowherd boys are bathing in Radha kunda. Any cowherd boy that bathes in Radha kunda will immediately be transformed into a gopi. So, any of you cowherd boys out there that aren't ready to be transformed into a gopi had better stay away from Radha kunda. The only way Srila Prabhupada could be a cowherd boy is if this verse of Upadesamrita is just false.

CC Adi.1.46 purport by Srila Prabhupada: Don't see any instruction here for seeing the spiritual master as a cowherd boy other than Balaram in the form of Lord Nityananda. The vision is one of these two. Either we see the spiritual master as a manifested representation of Lord Nityananda or one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani.

what was he supposed to say? I don't like cowherd boys? or I like Gopis better? I mean...... c'mon....!

Well, Prabhupada's instructions were that we should read the books he wrote. He never said anything about reading any book that some disciple has written about him to try and show the world the secret inner heart that Srila Prabhupada tried mightily to keep confidential. Even if a disciple figures out the rasa of the guru, is it really the right thing to try and publish it all in a book and make a big uproar amongst all the disciples about it. Surely you know that this book will be cause of much dissent, disagreement and even ill feelings amongst the disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have different opinions on what you say you have sorted out and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Was there no merit to what Narasingha Maharaja said about taking this topic and making a public spectacle about it? It might be OK to investigate for one's own curiousity, but is making a book and making a stink really the best way to treat the revelation?

That implies that your opinion is that anyone who doesn't read your book must be in ignorance. I guess reading all the books of Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, Jaiva Dharma, Brihat Bhagavatamritam, books of Kusakrata, Professor Kapoor etc. etc still renders me ignorant because I haven't read your book that presumes to expose to the world the inner heart of Srila Prabhupada? Wow, so that is the new standard? If we don't read your book we are in ignorance? I guess I have to get with the program...... I am not trying to hurt your feelings. I think you are a nice enough devotee. But, the way you worded your last post opens you up for an overhand right.

Actually, I have been painting my daughter Kamala Manjari's bedroom this weekend. My son is Nitai Prasad (22), my oldest daughter is Rasika Kripamoya (20) and Kamala is my youngest daughter (15). When I get time I will go through it, but I don't have time for a serious study at this moment. When I can go through it with rapt attention I will. But, I am not sure you really want me to. I have a knack for finding holes in bulletproof theories.

Then let's halt all this attempt to know the rasa of a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda. When Lord Nityananda enters your heart sakhya-rasa will be strong. We can give up the guessing game. Srila Prabhupada instituted a sahajiya prevention program into his worldwide preaching. Showing sakhya-rasa sentiments was a strategic aspect of his sahajiya prevention program. (my opinion) Beyond that, we know that he also wrote in his prayers to the lotus feet of Krsna that Radharani was his guru. I guess you just can't imagine that to be any sort of madhurya-rasa sentiment? Besides that, aren't we supposed to see the acharya as either a manifested representation of Lord Nityananda or Srimati Radharani. As guru tattva, Srila Prabhupada's personal rasa is not what we need to see. We need to see him as either the functional form of Lord Nityananda or Srimati Radharani. This pre-occupation with his personal rasa is for someone with too much time on his hands.

Well, I was in ISKCON for several years. Was initiated brahmana during the Prabhupada era. Never heard any story about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy. There are lots of myths from the era of hippie ISKCON. I wasn't in hippie ISKCON. I was in ISKCON during it's peak season and never heard any senior devotee say anything about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy. Your claim is just "Prabhupada said" and you still haven't produced any verifiable evidence. Here is all the evidence I need: NOD conclusion: If that isn't a revelation of madhurya-rasa, then I'll be a monkey's uncle. I have evidence. You have "Prabhupada said".

Oh how nice. Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for. Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa. It's a secret. He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows. I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

Well, I am not so sure that the situation unfolded exactly as this. In the conversation where Sridhar Maharaja gave the explanation of veiled madhurya-rasa I didn't hear any coercion or extortion going on. In fact, the very insinuation that that Sridhar Maharaja succumbed to pressure and coughed-up another explanation to satisfy disgruntled followers of Srila Prabhupada is just quite laughable as far as I am concerned. That is one point where I am not "wholly one" with Narasingha Maharaja, whom I otherwise have a lot of appreciation for. I have just not seen any evdidence to substantiate this theory. I would be glad to look at the evidence. I haven't seen any. Just claims.

I don't think any of them have a "need" to feel that Srila Prabhupada veiled his rasa with Krsna. We didn't extort that conclusion out of Sridhar Maharaja. That was his conclusion he arrived at upon deep contemplation of prior statements and for ANYONE to just write if off as inconsequential is just missing the whole point behind why Sridhar Maharaja made the statement. To use Sridhar Maharaja as the proof of Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa is in fact a deception, because in reality Sridhar Maharaja left the door open for alternative possibilities. It seems that you have a need to prove that someone else has a need to establish Srila Prabhupada in any particular rasa, when in fact an unbiased observer taking in all the statements of Sridhar Maharaja would have to avoid coming to any concrete conclusions unless he just wants to ignore the total body of his statements on the matter and pick and choose the one that suits his need to prove something one way or the other. I don't have a NEED to cater to any camp or Matha. I have a need to look at ALL the evidence and make MY OWN judgement.

Used to be that the "gopi bhava club" was the problem in ISKCON and now they are saying that the reason is that it should have been the "gopa bhava club" and Srila Prabhupada never would have intervened and closed the club down. OK, I get the picture. Let's all start a gopa bhava club................

I don't know what ISKCON you are talking about, but it is not the ISKCON I was in or the ISKCON that most ISKCON gurus are in. To say something like that just betrays how little you actually know about the ISKCON of the Prabhupada era and even the ISKCON of today. I would have to say that what you have said is just totally false. If that is what you think about ISKCON, then you must not have been a devotee of ISKCON for any period of time. It is this kind of categorical misconception that is really going to cause a backlash against this booklet and the campaign to establish conclusively that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya-rasa. Of course, as a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda he was in sakhya-rasa. Other than that, nobody really knows and even Sridhar Maharaja admitted that he did not know for sure.

Well, after all, isn't "Tripurari" a name for Lord Siva? Looks like a cowboy to me.......

That was going to be my next remark. From what I know of Tripurari Maharaja and his character, I would say that he would make a real good friend of that trickster Krishna. But, that might just be external.

Maybe some guys do that, but can you show any shastric reference of a cowherd boy aside from Balaram referring to Krsna as "brother". You argument in support of your opinion is very weak on this matter unless you can show some proof from authentic shastra that Subal or Madhumangal etc. ever referred to Krishna as brother. Unless you can, your position is not very strong on this point. Whazup bra?

Didn't you mean to say unreasonable?

Well, ok. So, sooner or later what I am about to say will be said by somebody, so it might as well be me. Now, bear in mind that what I am about to say is not necessarily my opinion but something that I see will inevitably be raised in question of the book. Some people will say that Babhru is just the front man for a campaign by Tripurari Maharaja to prove that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa and that for developing madhurya-rasa one will need siksha from a guru in the madhurya-rasa. In this way, Tripurari Maharaja will attract ISKCON devotess away from ISKCON to his camp where they can get madhurya-rasa from Tripurari Maharaja who imbibed madhurya-rasa from his siksha guru Sridhar Maharaja. They will also say that the reason behind posting the booklet on the forum was for the sake of making such propaganda and attracting devotees away from ISKCON to the madhurya-rasa camp of Tripurari Maharaja. Yep, leave it up to ol' Sonic Yogi's mind to come up with such critical thinking, though in fact this is not his own particular politics or heartfelt conclusion on the matter.

In the booklet ch.5 page 43 it says: That is true, but is that notion confirmed by any higher authority or alternative authority such as Sridhar Maharaja? If there is evidence that Sridhar Maharaja declared Srila Prabhupada as a nitya-siddha from Vaikuntha, wouldn't that be more authoritative than the opinions of his own followers? Of course his followers will think that, but is that confirmed by senior Gaudiya authority? And if Srila Prabhupada cannot be confirmed as nitya-siddha by senior Gaudiya authorities, doesn't that put somewhat of a hole in some of your conclusions and theories?

Don't worry, it's not a wire fence but a wooden fence overlooking a pasture full of cows grazing nicely.

Srila Prabhupada So, that applies to everyone except Srila Prabhupada who was more inclined to the gopa-jana?

Srila Prabhupada: July 20, 1971 New York, NY, USA<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So this is the original nature of Krsna, original nature of Krsna. He is Radha-Madhava. He is the lover of Srimati Radharani. And kunja-vihari, always enjoying the company of the gopis within the bushes of Vrdavana forest. Radha-madhava kunja-vihari. So He’s not only lover of Radharani, but braja-jana-vallabha. The whole residents of Vrndavana, they love Krsna. They do not know anything else. They do not know whether Krsna is God or not, neither they are very much harassed that “I shall love Krsna if He is God.” “He may be God or He may be whatever He is. It doesn’t matter, but we love Krsna, that’s all. ” That is called unnalloyed love. “If Krsna is God, then I shall love Him”—this is conditional love. This is not pure love. Krsna may be God or whatever He may be, but by His wonderful acts, the Vrajavasi, they are thinking, “Oh Krsna, He is very wonderful child, maybe some demigod. Maybe some demigod.” Because people are generally under impression that the demigods are all-powerful. They’re powerful within this material world. But they do not know that Krsna is above all of them. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [bs. 5.1]. The highest demigod, Brahma, is giving his opinion, “The supreme controller is Krsna.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So as the residents of Vrndavana, they love Krsna without any condition, similarly, Krsna also loves them. Vraja-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhari. When the inhabitants of Vrndavana were in danger because they stopped Indra-yajna and Indra became very angry, and he sent very great, powerful cloud and rained over Vrndavana incessantly for seven days, so when the inhabitants became very much disturbed, Krsna, although He was only seven years old boy, He saved them by lifting the Govardhana Hill. So He taught Indradeva, demigod, that “To stop your disturbance is the business of My little finger, that’s all.” So he came down to his knees. These things we’ll find in Krsna book. So as Gopi-jana-vallabha, His only business is how to protect gopi-jana. So our Krsna consciousness movement is how to become one of the gopi-jana. Then Krsna will save us from any danger, even by lifting a hill or mountain. Krsna is so kind and so powerful. When Krsna lifted the hill, He did not practice some yoga system. That is God. Although He was a child, He was playing like a child, He was dealing like a child, but when there was need, He was manifesting as God. That is Krsna. That is Krsna. Not that He has to go and practice some yoga system, then He becomes God. No. He’s not that type of God, not manufactured God. He’s God.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So gopi-jana-vallabha giri-vara-dhari. And as a child, as beloved child of Yasoda, Yasoda-nandana,... Krsna likes to be a child of a devotee. He wants to be chastised from His devotee father and mother. Because everyone worships Him, nobody goes to chastise Him, so He takes pleasure when a devotee chastises Him. That is Krsna’s service. If Krsna takes pleasure being chastised, so the responsibility is taken by a devotee: “All right, I shall become Your father and chastise You.” When Krsna wants to fight, one of His devotee becomes Hiranyakasipu and fights with Him. So all activities of Krsna is with His devotees. He is... Therefore, to become associate of Krsna, to develop Krsna consciousness... Yasoda-nandana vraja-jana- ranjana. His only business is how to satisfy... As braja-jana’s business is how to satisfy Krsna, similarly, Krsna’s business is how to satisfy braja-jana. This is reciprocation of love. Yamuna-tira-vana-cari. Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is wandering on the banks of Yamuna to please the gopis, the cowherd boys, the birds, beasts, calves. They are not ordinary birds, beasts, calves or men. They are on the top of self-realization. Krta-punya-punjah. After many, many lives they got that position, to play with Krsna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So our Krsna consciousness movement is so nice that anyone can go to Krsnaloka and become His associate, as a friend or so many other things, as a servant, as father, as mother. And Krsna is agreeable to any one of these propositions. These things are described very nicely in our Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So Krsna does not go even a step from Vrndavana. The original Krsna is Vrndavana. That is described in the Brahma-samhita,<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-laksavrtesu<o:p></o:p> surabhir abhipalayantam<o:p></o:p> laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambrahma-sevyamanam<o:p></o:p> govindam adi-purusam<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> [bs. 5.29]<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Brahma is accepting the Supreme Personality of Govinda, Krsna in Vrndavana. Venum kvanantam: “He is engaged in playing flute.”<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> aravinda-dalayataksam<o:p></o:p> barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarangam<o:p></o:p> kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham<o:p></o:p> govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> [bs. 5.30]<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So take advantage of these books, this knowledge, and this prasadam, this chanting, and be happy and go to Krsna. So nice thing. All right.

Despite some talk to the contrary, in my years in ISKCON there seemed to be almost a wholesale tendency towards madhurya-rasa by most all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada I ever knew, including some rough and tough guys that you would never imagine embracing the concept of madhurya-rasa with Krsna. So, how is it that a guru in sakhya-rasa produced thousands of disciples aspiring for madhurya-rasa with Krsna? That is the mystery to me that just is not answered with a conclusion of Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa with Krsna. Even the most course and crude devotees guys I ever knew were internally aspiring towards madhurya-rasa with Krishna. So, a guru in sakhya-rasa accomplished that? I find it a bit incredible.

So, were the madhurya-rasa mantras of Srila Prabhupada's diksha somehow ineffective on him? Despite the entire parampara and all the diksha mantras leading to madhurya-rasa, Srila Prabhupada is somehow an exception?

So, it is this statement by Sridhar Maharaja that has always kept me in the camp of being not so sure that Srila Prabhupada is ultimately situated in sakhya-rasa as his eternal relationship with Krsna. And despite claims that Sridhar Maharaja was more or less pressured into saying this, I don't buy it because in the course of this discussion I have not found anyone complaining about Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa or pressuring Sridhar Maharaja to contradict his previous statements on the matter of Prabhupada expressing sakhya-rasa sentiments. Maybe some are solidly convinced of the sakhya-rasa of Srila Prabhupada, but I am still setting on the fence.