RamanaDasi

The spiritual body is manifest from the consciousness of the Self. See Vedanta-sutra 4.4.1 The spiritual body is never in a separate location from the soul, the conscious self. Prior to the realization of one's siddha-deha (spiritual body), or in other words in the practitioner stage of sadhana bhakti, the spiritual form of the self is of an indeterminate shape. This matter is also dealt with in some detail in Vedanta-sutra 4.4.8-12. The self only manifests a spiritual form (siddha-deha) when the liberated soul has a desire to render service to the Lord through a spiritual form and senses. In Chaitanya Charitamrta, Sri Chaitanya says to Sanatan Goswami (a few times) mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante. That is, a mukta (liberated soul) who is wanting to engage in bhajan of Bhagavan and to participate in the lila of Bhagavan will "krtva" a "vigraha". The soul will make (krtva) a spiritual body (vigraha) through a transformation of their consciousness-bliss-body (satchitananda). This is explained in the commentary of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura, but unfortunately this is not given in your Iskcon publication. The idea that the spiritual body is in the spiritual sky waiting for us, and that we are in a different place from our spiritual body, is directly refuted by Vedavyasa in Vedanta sutra 4.4.1-12. I guess that since Vedanta Sutra is not one of Prabhupada's books some people such as Sarva will not believe what is written there.

This verse says souls who are liberated (vimukta) but who have no devotion to the Lord can fall down. But the devotees never fall down. ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥ punar āvartino 'rjuna mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate

Souls do fall from Paravyoma: Srimad Bhagavata 10.2.32 ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah "O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet." This verse is quoted many times by Sri Chaitanya in his Sanatana-siksha in Chaitanya Charitamrta

I understand what you say: Sophistry

It seems you are saying of the Gopis: "no, they never falldown from that exalted level". By "that exalted level" I understand you to mean to say they never forget Krishna even when they are dreaming. This is true. Only jivas fall. Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote this about the fall of the jiva from his original position where the jiva was a "atomic portion of that sun's ray". ======== The soul, according to Sri Chaitanya is an atomic part of the Divine Soul. It is a sort of God's power to produce beings who are spiritual in essence but liable to be enthralled by 'Maya', when they forget their position as eternal servants of the Deity. God here is compared with the sun and the souls are said to be the atomic portions of that sun's rays unable to stand freely, unless they are protected by another competent attribute of God's power. By the word part is not meant to be portions cut out of a piece of stone by the axe, but is meant to be like one lamp lighted from another, or gold produced from an alchemist’s stone as believed by the ancients. The souls are also compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire. Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. They know not the troubles of maya and the karma-chakra or the rotative principles of mayik action and its result. Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side. They are in maya’s karma-chakra, ending only when they again see their original position as servants of the Deity. These souls, whether liberated from maya or enthralled by her, are separate responsible beings depending on the Deity. Hari is the Lord of maya, who serves Him at His pleasure. The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity. Hence, there is a natural and inherent distinction between God and jiva which no pantheistic maneuver can annihilate. P lease avoid this misleading question, "When were these jivas created and enthralled?" The mayik time has no existence in spiritual history, because it has its commencement after the enthrallment of jivas in matter, and you cannot, therefore, employ mayik chronology in matters like these. === - direct quote of words written IN ENGLISH by Thakura Bhaktivinoda in his book Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, His Life and Precepts Thakura Bhaktivinoda says souls start out "between the chit jagat and mayik jagat". That is, in a tatastha state where they are "compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire". From there, some souls choose to go into Vaikuntha. Bhaktivioda wrote: "Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways." Those souls enter Vaikuntha as newcomers. "Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side." - Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The meaning is very clear. You Iskconions do not accept what Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote IN ENGLISH in his books. That is your bad decision and choice.

Do you think some Gopis fall down from Goloka? A simple yes or no is what I want.

Quote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. However, if they care to read Prabhupada’s books, they will find this material world is ALL the living entities dream, ONLY EXPERIENCED by sub-consciously leaving their real perpetual body in Goloka and then 'entering' the unlimited dream identities or vessels within the dreams of Maha Vishnu... One can only enter it as a bodiless consciousness after being the living entity sub-consciously leaves Goloka or is projected from their real bodily form in Goloka.. posted by Sarva >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You think Gopis in Goloka are dreaming they are enjoying eating bacon and eggs? And beefsteak? With a bottle of wine on the side? Gopis are subconsciously thinking about other things besides Krishna. That is what you say. Maybe for a spot of relaxation the Gopis are coming into material life so they can be watching Oprah on TV? Is it so? You also forgot to give your explanation about why the Gopis who were saying "I am Krishna" must fall down into material life. Your Iskcon idea is that those Gopis become dogs, hogs, camels. It is so, isn't it? You Iskcon people are nuts.

Iskcon's philosophy is very similar to mayavada Mayavada says this world is an illusion and that our self is always transcendental brahma. Iskcon says this world is an illusion and that our self is always in Goloka. Same thing. If everyone is in Goloka already then why bother with the internet. Just do your japam and shut your mouth because nobody neads to hear your words since every soul is already an uttoma mahapurusha and nobody is really starving or sick or stupid. In your philosophy you say I am already a Goloka-bhasi so if I am then why give me a lecture about Iskconism. Bye bye.

No soul ever falls from Vaikuntha or Goloka. You are right Ranjeet but they will never agree.

There is no Prema Bhakta in Iskcon.

Sometimes the Gopis think "I am Krishna" But they don't fall down into material life. Not even in their dreams. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu the Gopis are the greatest devotees of Krishna. The Gopis expressions of bhakti presented in the Bhagavat are all divine. And we see in Srimad Bhagavat that in their madness of divine love the Gopis sometimes think "I am Krishna" and in the Bhagavat nowhere does it say that the Gopis were punished for thinking "I am Krishna". Your Iskcon sampradaya is saying things that are different from what Srimad Bhagavat is teaching. In your Iskcon philosophy do you think those gopis who were madly thinking about Krishna and thinking "I am Krsna" will fall down from Goloka and become dogs, hogs, camels. This is your Iskcon thinking is it not? You Iskcon people are so arrogant that you want to teach everyone what is Krishna bhakti but your teachings are totally different from what is taught by Sukdev in the Bhagavat.

Your point about satellites is perfectly reasonable. But don't think that the geocentric model is the real model of the universe.

I have never seen any Iskcon like that. In the Iskcon I saw the seniority is gained by material activity. Material activity you do with your body or brain. Like memorizing cliches and speaking cliches. Even a lifeless computer can repeat words - that memorizing is not bhakti if you are doing it just so you can progress "up the ladder" in Iskcon. I have seen the swamis criticizing non-Iskcon people who are called karmis or mayavadis. I have been told I should do the copy-cat dancing, where you imitate the leg-swing dancing style you see the other Iskcon people doing. I have seen men with tilok making loud noises with squeeze box noise machines and imitating the sound of bhajans by singing in opera-style with your voice. That iskcon I have seen. What sort of bhakti yoga is being practiced when the Iskcon men are preaching to the guests? I have seen the temple leaders preaching and then coming to the conclusion of their lecture which is that they start talking about money. They start asking for money and taking money. People come to the temple to give a donation and get some good karma and it is just like worship of some demigod - you make an offering and get good luck for yourself and Iskcon is promoting that belief. The givers and the takers are all thinking about their own benefit and I don't see any bhakti there at all. Only a reflection of bhakti like a backwards image in a mirror. I have seen how the temple devotees get together in the morning and cheer "Jaya" for each other for collecting so many points (dollars) when they were doing scam-kirtan the day before. Thanks for your sales-pitch and your positive impression of the Iskcon corporation. But no thanks I'm not someone who will ever be involved as a contributor to that guru franchise system.

This is beautiful. Thanks.

You are very funny. Well said! You did forget Islam, by the way. Islamic fundamentalism (Quran), Christian fundamentalism (Testaments), Iskcon fundamentalism (Prabhupada's books). There are these three groups of zealot preachers.

The Gaudiyas text Brahma Samhita mentions worship of the 5 forms of the Absolute: Durga, Surya, Sri Ganesha, Shiva and Vishnu. Thakura Bhaktivinoda wrote about this worship also, and said it is proper religious activity to worship God who is revealed to us according to our spiritual capacity. Some see Ma Durga as Mother of the Universe, like is described in Devi Bhagavat. Some see Shiva is in the mind of Durga and how Shiva is beyond Maya and the world too. Some souls see Ganesha as the perfect image of all our souls, for he is born of Ma and he is the leader of the Gana (masses of people in the world). Some see Surya as the symbol energizing force behind nature, and worship Surya with Gayatri mantra om bhu bhuvah svah tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi ... Some souls worship Vishnu because Vishnu is situated in Parampadam and he is preserving all our lives. This is what Thakura Bhaktivinoda writes in his book.

You misrepresent Visistadvaita Souls are not created by Vishnu. It never happened! Where has any Srivaishnava Acharya said souls are not beginningless? This idea "souls are created" is directly contradicted by so many statements in Sri Gita, Upanishad, Brahmasutra and so forth. You say, "it is argued". Who said that? No Srivaishnava Acharya ever said like that. Do any present Srivaishnava Acharyas such as Sri Varadayatirajajeer or Sri Chinnajeeyar say like that? They never would!

Sri Krishna teaches Advaita philosophy to Uddhava in Srimad Bhagavat 11.28.19 <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Krishna Gold remains gold both before and after ornaments are made of it. It only gets different names such as ring or necklace. Similarly, the Reality, the Cause of creation, is the same both before and after worldly objects receive their various names and forms. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Krishna says that though we perceive differences in nature, in reality we are only giving names and we are only perciving imaginary differences. In reality, THE PERMANENT TRUTH IS BEYOND OUR MIND AND IT IS JUST THE MIND THAT IS DIFFERENCE-PERCEIVING. This is not my opinion. This is the teaching of Krishna to Uddhava. Everyone and everything is part of Sriman Narayana. This is the teaching of Vaishnava Acaryas such as Sri Ramanuja, and Sri Sridhar Swami who Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said gave the proper commentary to Vedanta. The name Vishnu means all-pervading. He is all in all . As this verse says: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Ito nrsimhah parato nrsimho Yato yato yami tato nrsimho Bahir nrsimho hrdaye nrsimho Nrsimham adim saranam prapadye Wherever I go Nrsimha is there. He is in the heart and is outside as well. I surrender to Lord Nrsimha, the origin of all things and the supreme refuge. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> This type of view of God is called Advaita. Vasistha-Advaita, Suddha-Advaita. Sanatkumara said to king Prithu <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">I take refuge in that everlasting Reality which is always free and unpolluted, beyond the mire of material qualities. The perception of a snake in a flower garland is only perception of an apparent fact and not a real fact, a perception that vanishes when the correct understanding of the garland arises. Similarly the perception of worldly objects, which is but an empirical perception, ceases as soon as the correct knowledge of the Absolute dawns on us. Bhagavatam 4.22.38 (translation by Dr K Bharadvajan, of Ramanuja sampraday) </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 12.5.5 ghaṭe bhinne ghaṭākāśa ākāśaḥ syād yathā purā evaḿ dehe mṛte jīvo brahma sampadyate punaḥ SYNONYMS ghaṭe — a pot; bhinne — when it is broken; ghāṭa-ākāśaḥ — the sky within the pot; ākāśaḥ — sky; syāt — remains; yathā — as; purā — previously; evam — similarly; dehe — the body; mṛte — when it is given up, in the liberated condition; jīvaḥ — the individual soul; brahma — his spiritual status; sampadyate — attains; punaḥ — once again. TRANSLATION When a pot is broken, the portion of sky within the pot remains as the element sky, just as before. In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within resumes his spiritual identity. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> Alternatively: In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within is Brahman, as always. <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

I think Swami Prabhupada was a great soul who Krishna sent to America to help the foreign people become Vaishnavas. It is unfortunate his foreign devotees are making up new beliefs that are not taught in the scriptures of the Goswamis.

So if a cowherd boy wants to sit on Krishna's shoulders and beat Krishna in a wrestling fight, sometimes Krishna will encourage that as part of his play, and sometimes that other boy's ego or desire to be superior to Krishna will be the cause of his downfall. His desire to sit on Krishna's shoulders will mean he gets an experience of mortal life. Krishna will randomly allow some boys to sit in his shoulder while other boys get sent to hell. What Krishna really needs is for you Iskconians to go and do sankirtan in Goloka and warn all the cowherds not to play too rough with Krishna. Warn them! If they play too rough they will go to hell. I can just imagine it. Life in the perfect world where everyone is perfectly fearful all the time. Fearful that if they do any sin they will have to fall and suffer karma once again. Iskcon-Goloka. The re-formed Goloka. The future Goloka where all the souls are full of fear of God because they see the Iskcon mind-controll team that is always roaming around and warning everyone "don't do that!" and "don't do that" Excuse me, but I will pass on that. I am looking, as I said, looking for a better heaven than your Iskcon heaven. The one that Sri Chaitanya taught about is much more appealing. Let me go there. You can have Iskcon-Goloka for yourselves.

Who should I follow? If I follow Iskcon I will go to a place like Devaloka where Indra resides. A world from which I can fall back into this world of samsara. Excuse me but I don't wish to go to your heaven. I am looking for a higher heaven.

Sarva and Bhaktajan have different ideas here. Sarva says a person can fall down from Goloka again and again and again (etc) Bhaktajan believes you don't fall a second time, you only fall from Goloka once. What then of the statement by Krishna in the Gita (8.21 It directly contradicts your Iskcon ideas Pardon me, but I choose to follow teachings different from your Iskcon ideas

If you believe in these types of ideas then good luck to you. The soul is free to do as she chooses. I never had any connection with Swami Prabhupada or the Iskcon movement and I'm not a believer in that. Whether or not Swami Prabhupada taught this idea you claim he taught is a topic other people might want to discuss with you. But I'm not interested. Your opinions are anti-Vedic. I prefer to believe in the direct statements of Sri Krishna who said, "One who reaches my eternal abode will never return to this material world" and "My devotee will never perish". Only deluded people will think the associates of Krishna such as the Gopis in Goloka can fall into ignorance and become centipedes, pigs and spiders. Your claim that the Gopis only fall "in their dreams" is equally absurd. The pain a person feels in a dream is just as real as the pain we feel in waking life. You are trying to teach us that the Gopis can feel material pain. But what you are trying to teach is a sinful idea. People who think like this are like obsessive and disturbed people who are haunted by nasty, offensive thoughts. Nama-aparadha, Vaishnava-aparadha, Guru-aparadha. You are preachers of offensive ideas, you people who are preaching that Krishna doesn't protect his beloved associates from suffering and material existence. You people who believe this sort of nonsense really are very unfortunate.

Uddhava

How do you know Prabhupada is in the group of souls who can never fall down? What is the word in Sanskrit for associates of Krishna who will never fall down? It is nitya-siddha. But you say any nitya-siddha can fall. Your circular logic is ridiculous.