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RamanaDasi

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Posts posted by RamanaDasi


  1.  

    If we are NOT a perpetual bodily form then what are we?

     

     

     

    The self itself is Brahman:

    The Self is Brahman - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5

     

     

     

    The impersonal Brahmajyoti is not some place in the creation, it is a state of the individual consciousness of the jiva tattva.

     

    This is the correct understanding of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s teachings.

     

    you are wrong

     

     

    upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

    'virajā', 'brahma-loka bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

     

    "As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana. - Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153

     

     

     

     

    Our nitya siddha or svarupa body IS who are eternally even if we forget that ‘eternal bodily self’ and dream we are nitya baddha if we choose’

    It is the nitya baddha dream state, that is the impersonal aspect of the jiva tattva's marginal identity, that can come from a plain sheet of inactive individual consciousness on the atomic ember echelon (that all are collectively the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of Krsna’s creation), ONLY AFTER FIRST experiencing the falling down to material dream bodies or vessels within the material world which is the Maha tattva dream of Maha Vishnu.

     

    The residents of Vaikuntha never fall under the influence of the material modes of nature, even when they are dreaming

     

     

    Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

     

    Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)


  2. swami prabhupada told his followers it was a topic too hard to understand

     

    other acharyas said it is something you can understand - krishnas devotees never come under the influence of illusion, even when they are sleeping

     

    bhaktirasamrtasindhu says the souls in goloka are of two kinds. sadhana siddhas and nitya sidhas

     

    nityasiddhas have been in goloka forever. sadhana siddhas start off in santa rasa in the light of brahman


  3.  

    TRANSLATION

    My dear Vyāsa, even though a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

    This verse of Bhagavatam makes no sense if ALL souls were originally in Krishnas lila.

     

    Whydoes it say devotees do not undergo material existence "like others" if all the "others" are souls who have fallen from Krishnas lila?

     

    That would be a type of deception... saying a devotee never falls down


  4. In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 2.4 there is an extensive discussion about the fact that devotees who are in the lila of Krishna sometimes commit mistakes or become fallen or offensive. The examples are given of Akrura (who was involved in stealing the Syamantaka jewel and the murder of Satyajit) as well as Brahma (who stole <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place> cows and friends).

    Sri Rupa Goswami explains that those devotees do not suffer in the same way non- bhaktas do.<st1:place w:st="on">

    </st1:place>

    <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> helps and protects them.

     

    As we also see in the case of Kalakrishna das who was an associate of Mahaprabhu who became involved with gypsy women.

    Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.2.35

     

     

    .

     

    TRANSLATION

    O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall.


  5. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.19

     

     

    na vai jano jātu kathañcanāvrajen

    mukunda-sevy anyavad ańga saḿsṛtim

    smaran mukundāńghry-upagūhanaḿ punar

    vihātum icchen na rasa-graho janaḥ

    SYNONYMS

    na — never; vai — certainly; janaḥa person; jātu — at any time; kathañcana — somehow or other; āvrajet — does not undergo; mukunda-sevī — the devotee of the Lord; anyavat — like others; ańgaO my dear; saḿsṛtim — material existence; smaran — remembering; mukunda-ańghri — the lotus feet of the Lord; upagūhanam — embracing; punaḥ — again; vihātum — willing to give up; icchet — desire; na — never; rasa-grahaḥ — one who has relished the mellow; janaḥ — person.

     

     

    TRANSLATION

    My dear Vyāsa, even though a devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa sometimes falls down somehow or other, he certainly does not undergo material existence like others [fruitive workers, etc.] because a person who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again.

     

     

    PURPORT

    A devotee of the Lord automatically becomes uninterested in the enchantment of material existence because he is rasa-graha, or one who has tasted the sweetness of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. There are certainly many instances where devotees of the Lord have fallen down due to uncongenial association, just like fruitive workers, who are always prone to degradation. But even though he falls down, a devotee is never to be considered the same as a fallen karmī. A karmī suffers the result of his own fruitive reactions, whereas a devotee is reformed by chastisement directed by the Lord Himself. The sufferings of an orphan and the sufferings of a beloved child of a king are not one and the same. An orphan is really poor because he has no one to take care of him, but a beloved son of a rich man, although he appears to be on the same level as the orphan, is always under the vigilance of his capable father. A devotee of the Lord, due to wrong association, sometimes imitates the fruitive workers. The fruitive workers want to lord it over the material world. Similarly, a neophyte devotee foolishly thinks of accumulating some material power in exchange for devotional service. Such foolish devotees are sometimes put into difficulty by the Lord Himself. As a special favor, He may remove all material paraphernalia. By such action, the bewildered devotee is forsaken by all friends and relatives, and so he comes to his senses again by the mercy of the Lord and is set right to execute his devotional service.

    In the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that such fallen devotees are given a chance to take birth in a family of highly qualified brāhmaṇas or in a rich mercantile family. A devotee in such a position is not as fortunate as one who is chastised by the Lord and put into a position seemingly of helplessness. The devotee who becomes helpless by the will of the Lord is more fortunate than those who are born in good families. The fallen devotees born in a good family may forget the lotus feet of the Lord because they are less fortunate, but the devotee who is put into a forlorn condition is more fortunate because he swiftly returns to the lotus feet of the Lord, thinking himself helpless all around.

    Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds.


  6. The pure devotees of Bhagavan Sri krishna never forget Krishna

     

    Sri Jiva Gosvami has said that the devotees of Lord Krsna are always transcendental to all the modes of material nature; when they feel dizziness or go to sleep, they are not considered to be sleeping under the modes of nature, but are accepted as being in a trance of devotional service. There is an authoritative statement in the Garuda Purana about mystic yogis who are under the direct shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: "In all three stages of their consciousness--namely wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep--the devotees are absorbed in thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, in their complete absorption in thought of Krsna, they do not sleep."

     

    Swami Prabhupada (nectar of devotion)

     

    People who believe the associates of Sri Hari are having dreams wherein they are experiencing life under the modes of nature are following a concocted philosophy, as no lesser an authority than Sri Jiva Goswami says the associates ofl the Lord never fall under the influence of Mahamaya even while sleeping


  7.  

    Some foolishly say we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or some plain sheet of inactive consciousness but long, long, long before that we were originally with Krishna in Goloka.

     

     

     

    The souls are also compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire. Each soul has drawn from its Fountainhead a proportionate share of the attributes and consequently a small proportion of the free will. These souls are naturally located between the chit jagat, and mayik jagat. Those who chose to serve their God were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti. They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways. They know not the troubles of maya and the karma-chakra or the rotative principles of mayik action and its result. Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side. They are in maya’s karma-chakra, ending only when they again see their original position as servants of the Deity. These souls, whether liberated from maya or enthralled by her, are separate responsible beings depending on the Deity. Hari is the Lord of maya, who serves Him at His pleasure. The soul or jiva is so constructed as to be liable to be enthralled by maya in consequence of want of power when unassisted by the hladini-sakti of the Deity.

     

    - Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, his life and precepts

     

     

    This is not a translated text, rather these are the direct words in English of Bhaktivinoda Thakura who says some souls who chose to serve the Lord were admitted into the spiritual world (from the "burning fire" of Brahman) and some other souls went into Maya.

     

    No matter how you wriggle, it is absolutely clear that in this English language book written by Bhaktivinoda Thakura he states EXPLICITELY that souls started off from a neutral position (Brahman).

     

     

    First event:

    some souls chose to serve their God

     

    Second event:

    those souls were protected from fall by the interference of the hladini attribute of the Supreme chit sakti.

     

    Third event:

    They have been admitted as eternal servants of the Deity in various ways.

     

    This is the sequence of events Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said occurs and this is totally the opposite of the idea that souls start off in the lila of Krishna and come down into illusion. Either Bhaktivinoda Thakura is wrong or the people on the other side of this debate are wrong. Believe what you like, but this statement of Bhaktivinoda Thakura is perfectly clear: souls start off in a state where the souls may be "compared with separate atomic emanations of the burning fire".

     

     

    And for souls who emerged from samadhi and desired to be lords of maya:

    Those who wanted to enjoy were grasped by maya from the other side.

     

    This is the teaching of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

     

    Foolish? Who are you calling foolish?


  8. my realization today is that blind faith is an evil thing. from that evil many other evil things come into existence.

     

    I saw sarva on another thread saying how Jayapataka says only Iskcon gurus should have the right to initiate outside of India. I realized today Iskcon has no value except for a certain class of people. The distortion of Chaitanyadev's philosophy by Iskcon and its by-product-philosophers is extreme. To the point where I now feel quite certain "they are not real followers of Sri Chaitanyadev at all".

     

    bija you are a gentleman. I hope they never influence you or disturb you with their self-deceiving Babylon of distorted "Prabhupada-said" beliefs

     

     

    Hare Krishna


  9.  

    :sleep:

    Time, a 25th element is under Lord Krsna`s control. There was one time Krsna was playing with his cowherd friends in the forest of Vrndavan. While passing by, Lord Brahma stole Krsna`s cowherd friends. Aware what Lord Brahma did(so that the parents of his cowherd friends would not worry why they`ve gone missing) Lord Krsna expanded himself as his cowherd friends( who went missing for 1 year). When Lord Brahma came back to return Krsna`s cowherd friends, the creator of the universe was so surprised to see that what he stole were still playing with Lord Krsna as if the incident never happened.

     

    In other words, my answer to Theist`s question: Does one experience linear time, as in past present and future, in the spiritual world? It`s neither yes or no as proven by this story.

     

    Sarva thinks that when the Vrajavasis are dreaming they are "in maya", that is, dreaming they are in connection with the material existence, no time passes in Goloka.

     

    But from the story of Brahma stealing the cows and gopals it is clear that the dreams of the Vrajavasis do last for a duration of time in the material world. Brahma's one moment of material time in Brahmaloka was one year of time for the dreaming cowherd boys.

     

    I think this puts to rest the entire fallacious theory that Time in the spiritual world is not synchronous with time in the material world.


  10.  

    Or do you imagine that sometime Krishna was alone in darkness and then one day He decided He was tired of being alone in darkness and decided to create us. LOL

     

     

    Sri Chaitanya taught Srila Sanatan Goswami that the Lord's antaranga shakti (internal potency) that manifests the Dham, parikars (eternal associates) etc has always existed. Sri Radha, Nanda Gopa, Yashodamoyee etc have always been with Krishna. You people should read what Sri Chaitanya taught - he said to Sanatan "mukta api lilaya vigraham krtva bhagavantam bhajante". Find out what that really means if you want to know what Sri Chaitanya's teachings really are. It is all explained in Vedanta Sutra pada 4.4.1-18. Take a look. Open your eyes and see that the Vedas explain where our spiritual body is right now, and how Time is inexhaustible.


  11.  

    Our thought process, imaginations and perceptions are only possible through our mind and senses which requires physical organs like the brain and sense organs.

     

    If there is a such a realm beyond the world we know, a realm where we exist without these essential physical organs - then that existence is inconceivable by the mind. This is where the word transcendental truly applies.

     

    Anything you can imagine, cannot be it.

     

    Cheers

     

     

    Because God is unlimited he has the ability to appear within our limited field of perception. God makes the laws of nature, he is not subordinate to them.


  12.  

    Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.26.17

     

    My dear mother, O daughter of Svāyambhuva Manu, the time factor, as I have explained, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, from whom the creation begins as a result of the agitation of the neutral, unmanifested nature.

     

    PURPORT

     

    The unmanifested state of material nature, pradhāna, is being explained. The Lord says that when the unmanifested material nature is agitated by the glance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it begins to manifest itself in different ways. Before this agitation, it remains in the neutral state, without interaction by the three modes of material nature. In other words, material nature cannot produce any variety of manifestations without the contact of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is very nicely explained in Bhagavad-gītā. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the cause of the products of material nature. Without His contact, material nature cannot produce anything.

     

    ============

     

    Bhagavad Gita 10. 33

     

    aksaranam akaro 'smi dvandvah samasikasya ca

    aham evaksayah kalo dhataham visvato-mukhah

     

    Of letters I am the letter A, and among compounds I am the dual word. I am also inexhaustible time, and of creators I am Brahma, whose manifold faces turn everywhere.

     

    ============

     

    Sri Radha, speaking through the mouth of Sri Gauranga, says She wants to worship the special moments of time when She was with Krishna:

     

    CC Madhya 2.37: "Whenever I had the chance to see Lord Kṛṣṇa's face and His flute, even in a dream, two enemies would appear before Me. They were pleasure and Cupid, and since they took away My mind, I was not able to see the face of Kṛṣṇa to the full satisfaction of My eyes.

     

    CC Madhya 2.38: "If by chance such a moment comes when I can once again see Kṛṣṇa, then I shall worship those seconds, moments and hours with flower garlands and pulp of sandalwood and decorate them with all kinds of jewels and ornaments."

     

     

    Sri Radha worships those separate moments of time that she was with Krishna. She is not always standing together with Krishna, for sometimes she is in the mood of separation, vipralambha.

     

    How can the Gopis experience separation from Krishna if there is neverending union? Krishna sometimes comes and sometimes goes. He is not motionless or static.

     

    Also, during the astakaliya lila, the divine couples daily pastimes, they move from place to place and enjoy different lilas. Time passes....


  13.  

    The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

     

     

    This is a true statement but unfortunately you cannot see the truth in your own words.

     

    I am sorry you still don't get it and I am not going to keep trying to explain it to you. No need to waste your brilliant sarcasm skills on me.

     

    When Sri Krishna Chaitanya came to earth and played out his lila the time passed by just as it does in the region of transcendence. It takes time for Gurahari to eat a mango. Both here and in the transcendental world. Time didn't stop on earth because Sri Chaitanya was present, and it doesn't stop in Vaikuntha either. Only the process of decay stop. But the processes of life never stop.

     

    Your whole FALL philosophy is built on mistaken presumptions.


  14.  

    And again I will say that no one can understand what Srila Prabhupada taught on the issue unless they divorce themselves intellectually at least from the concepts of past and future.

     

    No one leaves the spiritual world and then comes back. This idea is contaminated by mundane time. As I am sure Svarupa has mentioned many times because there is no mundane concepting of time in spiritual consciousness There can be no such thing as "I left the spiritual world in the past and now I am working on returning" We think in this way because we are still illusioned. When we awaken we will find we never left.

     

     

    The material world is a dream with a duration of 0 seconds for people in Goloka.

     

    Brilliant.

     

    Nobody is really in maya and everybody is full of bliss. Including the gay men with Aids who never really went cruising bars FOR ANY TIME.

     

    The vultures eating dead people at the Tower of Silence at Doongerwadi in Mumbai are not really there either. Brilliant.


  15. This story was invented by sectarian Shaivas and written in Tamasic Puranas. It is a false story invented by materialistic men. You should understand how Prahlad was touched gently and affectionately by Naarasingh avatar and how the Lord was perfectly peaceful when he was with his bhakta Prahlada.

     

    Some stories in Puranas were written very recently. Even within the past 200 years.


  16. How is that?

     

    Iskcon people say everyone here in this world used to be in the spiritual planets of Krishna - Goloka or Vaikuntha

     

    My question is very reasonable. Are the grubs in a drain all souls who are really living in the spiritual world but who are dreaming they are having an excursion in the material world?

     

    Like I said about the gay men cruising bars. Are the gay men in this world all souls who have come from Goloka so they can go to Miami, San Francisco and other 5 star destinations?


  17. With all respect, Suchandra

     

    Please study the teachings of Sri Chaitanya to Srila Sanatana Goswami described in great detail in Chaitanya Charitamrta

     

    The whole of this topic is dealt with in great detail in that part of CC.

     

    You people may feel an allegiance to follow your Srila Prabhupada's teachings and that is good. I appreciate your devotion.

     

    But it doesn't change the fact that previous Acharyas never suggested or wrote that a soul in Goloka can come out of Krishna consciousness and feel they have become embodied in a material body, say for instance in the body of a gay man. The fall from Goloka theory states that associates of Krishna become fallen souls. Such as certain gay men who have been Gurus in Iskcon. To think these characters were PREVIOUSLY in Goloka but then decided to come down to earth and be gay is sinful. This type of reasoning leads to the thinking expressed below by writer who contributes to the Sampadaya Sun web site

     

     

    Pretending to be celibate when you are sexually active (whatever type) is just wrong. Further, you can be gay and be a guru: I cite Amara das ACBSP as evidence of this. However, I don't think that you can be dishonest and be a guru, at least not a very good one.

  18.  

    A valid argument. Consciousness as we know it, makes little sense without an I.

     

     

    Consciousness can exist without ahankara ("I")

     

    This is precisely what Nirvisesh-Brahma is.

     

    Ego-less consciousness.

     

    The lovers of Krishna in Vraja are all ego-less beings. They are "self-forgetful", in the words of one Krishna bhakta.

     

    Some people are striving for self realization, but it seems to me that in many ways the notion of self-realization is a smoke-screen that people with big egos hide behind. Like in the Christian religion where religionists condemn the heathens, the so called personalists are seen condemning the impersonalists (while simultaneously these personalist teachers are enjoying an ego centered life in a five-star materially-focused lifestyle paid for by gullible disciples).


  19.  

    But looking at the issue of being converted to Krishna's fold from another perspective, in Gita Krishna says that all men follow His path in all respects, and that everything rests on Him just as pearls are strung on a thread. Once having realized your siddha-deha, which is the culmination of spiritual consciousness, there is at that point nothing to convert either from or to, since the jiva has then entered full maturity in transcendental consciousness.

     

     

    The self itself is Brahman:

    The Self is Brahman - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5

     

     

    But the self can rise to a higher stage of existence that it has never known:

     

    upajiyā bāḍe latā 'brahmāṇḍa' bhedi' yāya

    'virajā', 'brahma-loka' bhedi' 'para-vyoma' pāya

     

    "As one waters the bhakti-latā-bīja, the seed sprouts, and the creeper gradually grows to the point where it penetrates the walls of this universe and goes beyond the Virajā River, lying between the spiritual world and the material world. It attains brahma-loka, the Brahman effulgence, and penetrating through that stratum, it reaches the spiritual sky and the spiritual planet Goloka Vṛndāvana. - Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.153


  20.  

    Based on the standard Gaudiya Vaishnava doctrine, we came to this world of maya from tatastha sakti, where our spiritual body was un-developed and un-differentiated (we were all very similar small sparks of consciousness). It is not that we were first gopis and we are now zeros... We received a seed of bhakti from great Vaishnavas, and now we have begun to evolve and grow spiritually, eventually developing full fledged devotional consciousness - our spiritual body is our devotional rasa, a particular way of serving Krsna. In spiritual sense you ARE your spiritual body.

     

    A very beautiful posting. Dandavats.


  21.  

     

    The starter of this thread similarly sought to reduce Godhead & the scriptural truths substantiating Godheads' attributes [albeit in the Upanishads, which, as a group, are famously considered to be "expositions on the impersonal aspect of Godhead"]

     

    maybe there are rogue (or novice) Vaishnavas who would be enamoured with you thorough erudition of your favorite selection of books that are counted among the Voluminous Vedic-Literatures.

     

    A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami's translations arrived just in time for me and others to 'pick-up our own copies'.

     

    A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami's translations are the OED of Vedic Literatures meant for advanced study . . .

     

    There is so much convoluted circular non-logic, done with such posh, that I think the poster is using algorithms and a data-base to acheive such a high level of misanthropic discourse --that it can not be spontaneous, but, fully contrived.

     

    Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm the only one who has been 'Card Counting."

     

     

     

     

    Krishna himself teaches non-dualism to Uddhava in Srimad Bhagavatam. In the Srimad Bhagavat Purana we read Sri Krishna saying:

     

     

    Gold remains gold both before and after ornaments are made of it. It only gets different names such as ring or necklace. Similarly, the Reality, the Cause of creation, is the same both before and after worldly objects receive their various names and forms.

    Srimad Bhagavat (11.28.19)

     

     

    There are many verses in Bhagavatam saying the God is "All" and that the supreme being is non-dual. Indeed it is true that god is non-dual Oneness but the tiny atoms called "jiva" are not God. They are just tiny atoms of light shining from the Supreme Light called Param-Brahma.

     

     

    Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 2.1.20:

    As a spider brings forth a web from within itself, so also it is with this world created by Brahman.

     

    Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.10:

    The Supreme Being surrounds Himself with the products of nature, just as when a spider builds a web and walks on threads spun from its own body. May that Supreme Being grant us liberation in Brahman!

     

    Uddhava said to Krishna's father Nanda:

    Anything which is seen or heard of, which has gone by or is existing now or is yet to happen, anything which is mobile or immobile, big or small, is not apart from Acyuta (Sri Krishna). He alone is everything. He is the supreme soul (paramatma). Bhag 10.46.43

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