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Saraba Iyar

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Posts posted by Saraba Iyar


  1.  

    Look at the quotes again that I provided, especially the ones with Narayana in them.

     

    I looked at it very carefully. In fact I am very familior with this Vaiosnavite's argument. The argument is falacious. Please do look at my post of 33 gods. There are no more gods in Vedas in a genune sense. There cannot be by the vedic cosmology and theology. Every name that appear latter has to be understood as attribute names of these thirty three deities - that is the rule.

     

    Words Narayana , Vishnu, Vasudeva and the like refer to attributes of god- any god - and does not refer to a different god. Vasu deva means the god of the wealth (of the universe) . Narayana means Nara + Ayana = Water like in moving , that is in itself no form but taking all possible forms. All these are attributes of the devine and can be applied to any deities. For example you may be aware Ganesha is also addressed as Vishnu in his mantra 'Suklam Barataram Vishnum sasivarnam ..."

     

    The word 'Narayana' is an attribute and not a separtate divinity apart from the 33 prime vadic gods. It is puranas that made independ gpod out of the attribute words. The word Narayana nowhere in Veda refer to a blue person with conch shell and wheel lying in a snake bed in a milk sea in a special place called Vaikunda. This Narayana you cannot find anywhere in Vedas. This is all in all a puranic concept. What can be found are a varieties of arrtibute names of the same 33 deities.

     

     

    Saraba Iyar.


  2.  

    Originally Posted by Saraba Iyar

    I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

     

    ...........................................................................

    But you should perform your own dharma instead of advertising yourself as the source of Vedic Knowledge.

     

    That is what I am doing. My own dharma is, apart from performing the rictuals , to teach veda. Any one who has learned veda properly is ordained to teach it. It is ordained in veda. It is my darma.

     

    It is also ordained in veda that no one with improper qualification should teach and interpret Veda. that is also Ordained in Veda.

     

    As to my 'advertising' I should clarify I,am puting my cards straight. I am stating explicitly my credentials. I dont know what is your's. You are suppose to first state it before entering in to debate. It is required of any good debate culture.

     

    The line of your parampara is best kept in the family vault.

    You do not know "who is who" --the word "who" refers to a person.

    You are proud of your personal knowledge at the expense of the Family tree of Great Personages that desended from Brahma--as enumerated in a lost book of Hindu literatures called the Bhagavata-purana.

     

    I admit I dont know much of Puranas and I dont deal with it. And my suggestion to you all - Strick to your own family vault Puranas. Dont venture in to Vedas with out proper knowledge of it.

     

    Maybe your paranmpara would be happier and content if we could erase all the Bhagavad-gitas from the shelves and memories of all Krishna's

    adherents?

     

    Fortunately I am not a fenetic like many of you. I dont want to erase any Puranas, and I am not a Krishna hater. But I will call a spade a spade.If ignorant or fenatac Vaishnavas misquote Vedas I will call of their bluf.

     

    be happy in your own dharma,

     

    That Advise applies to you too. Be happy with your chosen purana.

     

     

     

    Saraba Iyar


  3.  

    There are many references to Lord Vishnu in the Vedas, but for this age, the recommended Scriptures are Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, both of which attest the superiority of Lord Krishna.

     

     

    I am pained to see people are misrepresenting Veda.

    I have posted this material before; else where I will agai post it with the hope to clear the muisconception of “Vedic Gods”.

    I belong to the family of Hotr priests of Rg Veda. My father and my elder breather are Hotr priests. I am trained in Rg Veda in the traditional style of reciting entire Rg Veda. I know each and every line of Rg Veda by heart. I am also trained in the Bhashya – traditional interpretation - of the Vedas. Though I am trained to be competent to become a Hotr priest, I did not become a priest. My elder brother became a Hotr priest. (I am introducing myself to make a point I know what I am talking about. i dont talk things which I am not sure of. )

    In Vedic system, Hotr priest is the priest of Rg Veda and the only one qualified to invoke devas as only Rg mantras are meant for invoking devatas. . Yajur Vedic mantras are meant for giving offerings to the devas invoked by Rg Veda and Sama Veda mantras are meant for singing the praise of the gods invoked by Rg veda mantras. Thus as to the matter of gods are concerned, Rig Veda is the complete and final authority, since other Vedas perform a supplementary role to Rg Veda. No other gods that is not mentioned in Rg Veda could be invoked.

    There are only thirty three gods in rig Veda. There cannot be more because the number 33 is sacrosanct and has a tight logic. Divinities in Vedic system have esoteric connotation to the consonants of the Sanskrit alphabets. Gods are those letters. And there are only 33 consonants in Vedic Sanskrit. (From ‘Ka’ to ‘Ha’ are 33).

    “Te Trayastrimsadakshare Bhavath. Tryastrimsadhuo devah.” – Aitreya brahmana (1, 10)

    This tight association between devas and letters makes the gods limited to 33 and there cannot any more. Hence any additional gods mentioned in other later Vedas or Puranas (there are 33crores of gods in puranas) are to be understood as names or aspects of the original 33. If this is not the case those new gods cannot be technically invoked, from Vedic point of view. Hence there are only 33 gods in Vedas.

    And Who are these 33 Vedic Gods ? Asta Vasu (8), Ekladasa Rudra (11), Duadasa Aditya (12). Prajapati , Vasad or sometime Indra. And their names are given below.

    Eight Vasus: Agni, Jadaveda, Sahoja, Ajara, Vaisvanara, Naryapa, Panktiradha and Visarpi.

    Leven Rudras: Prabhrajamana, Vyavadata, Vasuki, Rajata, Parusha, Syama, Kapila, Atilohita, Urdhva, Avapatanta And Vaidyuta.

    The twelve Sun gods: Twastr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-Ekapat.

    These are the Vedic gods. Note that Vishnu is just one of the names of Sun god in Vedic system. Most of our present modern day Hindu gods are not at all Vedic. We have denigrated many of these Vedic gods and promoted new gods. What is atrocious is that peple justify their very non-Vedic gods as Original Vedic gods.

    As a Hindu, I have no problem in recognizing these new gods and even worshipping them. But what Pains me is the ignorant and even purposeful distortion of the Vedic religion to justify the new entities and practices. There is no need to argue that Vishnu is a Vedic god. Nothing is lost if Vaishnavas Accept that Vishnu is of Puranic origin. Is Behaved Geeta not is good enough? Why bring in Veda for support of a new religion?

    I hope people will stop talking about Vedas, with out a first hand study of it and use it incorrectly for supporting their wrong views. I have seen it repetedly in this Aurarya discussion groups, at many occasions in different places.I am writing this not with any animosity with Vaishnava religion or any other ( Puranic or modern) Hindu religious faction for that matter. It pains to see that Veda is not represented properly and is misused by Hindus themselves. I request humbly that care should be taken to represent Vedic System accurately and truthfully.

    Saraba Iyar


  4.  

    The Vedas say, Visnu wasnt born, from Visnu, Brahma is born and in Maha Upanisad it is said that Lord Shiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that is the Supreme Lord, the Creator of Brahma and Shiva, who is to be worshiped.

     

    Narayanah paro devas, Tasmaj jatas caturmukhah

    Tasmad rudro ‘bhavad devah, Sa ca sarva-jnatam gath

     

    “Narayan/Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and from him Brahma was born, from whom Shiva was born”

     

    This is false information. Vedas do not say ant thing like that. In fact Vishnu is not a vedic god at all. Veda Recognises only thirty three gods and Vishnu is not there in the vlist. There is a name Vishnu mentioned but that is actually tone of the twelve names of Aditya Sun god.

     

    I have posted this information before but people dont seems to accept the truth and continue to probagate false views about veda. I have no problem with Vishnu bhaktas but I have problem with perverting of the truth of Prinstine Vedas.

     

    Saraba Iyar


  5.  

    i completely fail to understand why vaishnavs lay so much stress on puranas instead of vedas a nd upanishads.probably they would put forward the same old idea that puranas are the commentaries of the vedas or that veads do not work in kali era .in that case,whom am i to believe,for the tantriks also say tantras are commentaries of vedas,and tantra should be followed in kali era.does the vaishnavs know that its a proven historical fact that puranas were written over a period of more than 1000 years?it started in the hindu period and subsequent additions went on till17th century.also these puranas are so contradictory.for ex:when most purans glorifies vishnu for killing madhukaitav,markendaya puran glorifies shakti for doing the same job.that is because yogamaya is suppossed to overpower madhu and kaitav with her maya ,at the request of brahmaa,after which vishnu could kill them.no hindu sect can survive without vedas and upanishads,can they? so wats the point pondering over these misleading purans instead of following upanishads.

     

    Vishnavas give emphasis to puranas because Vishnu and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are puranic creations. There is no mention of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in veda and the name Vishnu in Veda refer to Sun god. It is one of the twelve aspects of Sun.

    Of matters of Devadas, Rg Veda is the supreme and final authority. Only by Rg Veda mantras devadas could be invoked. Yajur Veda mantras are used to give offerings to the gods invoked by Rg Veda and Sama Veda mantras are used to praise the devada invoked by Rg veda. Hence, all other gods mentioned in subsequently in Yajur and Sama are just different names of Rg Vedic Gods.

    In Rg Veda Gods are thirty three. They are, Asta Vasu (8 Vasues ) Ekadasa Rudra (11 Rudras) and Duadasa Aditya (12 Adityas ) Prajapati and Indra. Note that there is no <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> or Rama or any of the modem day gods for that matter. A name called Vishnu exists but is actually one of the names of Aditya.

    These thirty three gods are a final and fixed list and there can be no more gods as per Vedic system the reason is that Vedic Divinities are intimately linked with the Sanskrit consonants. And the consonants are 33 in number ( Ka to Ha are 33) .

    Puranas created new gods and promoted them above the Vedic gods and demoted original Vedic gods some to demigod status, some to non entity worthy of any worship. If you are a <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> bakta , then to justify your belief you need Purana and Itihasda.

    Saraba Iyar.


  6. People talk through their hats on Vedic truths. Neither Narayana is a Vedic god nor non- monism the Vedic Doctrine. These are inventions of lesser mortals.

    I come from a family of Hotr priests. Hotr is a master of Rg Veda and qualified to invoke deities. My father is a Hotr priest and my elder brother is a Hotr priest. Though I myself have not become a priest I am trained in Rig Veda..

     

    Original Vadic Gods

    Only Rg veda mantra has the power to invite or invoke deities. Other Vedas are for subsequent sublimentary purposes. For example the Adhvaryu priest trained in Yajur Veda by the Yajur Veda mantras, offers oblations in to fire to the deity invoked by the Hotr. The master of Sama Veda sings the praise of the deity invoked by the Hotr . The Bhrama priest trained in Adharva Veda is the overall supervisor of the yajna. There is a continuity of Rg, Yajur and Sama Vedas and unity amoung them. What devas are invoked by Rg is offered Oblation by Yajur and is praised by song of Sama.

     

    Thus Rg Veda becomes the most important and sole authority on maters concerning gods. Hence it is the only authentic source regarding Gods. Classification and details of gods are to consulted only on Rg Veda. All other gods refered in Vedas are all different names or aspects of this original 33 deities.

     

    Puranas count the gods as thirty three crores, Rg veda count is only thirty three.

    Pramana: : Rg veda 1,139,11; 1,34,11; 1,42; 3,6,9; 8, 30, 2; 8,35,3; and 9,92.4

    And these 33 gods are :

    Triyatrimsadyo deva Ashto Vasava Yeka dasarudra

    Duvadasaaditya Prajapatirscha Vashadkaranscha - Aitreya brahmana 10,5

    (Thirty three devas are Eight Vasus, leven rudhras, twelve adyatyas, prajapati and Vasadkara) Note : Vashad kara is sometimes replaced by Indra.

     

    Here is the names of all of them:

    Eight Vasus: Agni, Jataveda, Sahoja Ajara, Vaisvanara, Naryapa, Panktiradha, Visarpi.

    Leven Rudhras: Prabhrajamana, Vyavadata, Vasuki, Rajata, Parusha, Syama, Kapila, Atilohita, Urdhva, Avapatanta, Vaidyuta

    Twelve Adithyas: Tvashtr, Savitr, Bhaga, Surya, Pushan, Vishnu, Vaisvanara, Varuna, Kesi, Vrshakapi, Yama, Aja-ekapat.

    And finally, Indra (or some times Vashat) and Prajapati

    All other gods are to be understood as merely names or aspects of these original thirty three gods only. There are no more gods in a unique sense. The thirty three crores could be interpreted as a fancy number of purana coming from the original number 33. There is a reason why there are only 33 gods and no more gods are possible. Vedic deities have their close link with the Sanskrit letters. The thirty three consonants correspond to thirty three gods. (Consonants from ‘ka’ to ‘ha’ are 33).

    Pramana: Te tryatrimsadaksharo bavat triyatrimsaddho deva.

    There are no more genuinly separate gods than these 33. If they are there they cannot be invoked by Vadic mantras, hence are non Vedic.

    Note there is no mention of Narayana in this Rg vatic list of primary deities. The only suggestive name ‘Vishnu’ is actually one of the names of Sun.

     

    There is no justification for the claim that monism has no place in Veda.

    In fact Monism is the very official conception of Vedic Rishis and not an invention of Sankara or any latter or earlier lesser mortals. Here is the pramana:

    Indra mitra varunamagnimahuradho diva sa suparno garutman

    Yekam sadhuipra bahudha vadanthyagni yamam matarisvanamahuh.- Rg Veda (1,164,46)

    “Reality is one. The seers call it by many names; Indra, mitra, agni, Suprana, yama and Matarisva”

     

    And this one reality is described as: Akshra (imperishable), Nitya (eternal ),

    sat (real), brahma ( ever expansive), and Ekam (one).

     

    The entire universe finds its abode in this one reality only.

    Pramana : Yatra visvam bhavaty eka- nidam - Sukla Yajur Veda (32,8) .

    All the gods of vedic mantras are forms of this one spirit.

    Pramana: Mahad devanam asuratvam ekam - Rg Veda ( 10,63,2)

     

    Neither Narayana is a Vedic god nor is dualism, or any other form of non-monism, the Vedic doctrine. These are latter constructions and fabrications of pundits, not the truth of Rishis.

     

    Saraban.


  7. And what about the poor old Sun god?

    In your busy promoting of Bhrama and Vishnu as the Bhraman, you forgot the real one. How do you overlook conveniently that a Bramin’s first and only commitment is Gayatri mantra, which is the very essence of Veda. Other gods are optional for a Brahmin. And Gayatri is representing which god? Savitr (Sun god) my friends. He is called Pratyaksha Bhraman (verily the manifested Brahman)

    “Vishnu” is nothing but one of the twelve names of Sun god.

    Sun god is the oldest god in other civilizations too. Egyptian mythology has it that Ra the sun god self created himself first. Then he created other gods. It is just another matter that we forgot him and relegated him to a non entity and promoted many other deities above him. It is different issue that we worship many deities But when it comes to sandia vandana, by gayatri, we worship Sun as Brahman and no one else.

    Sun verily is the manifestation of Brahman

    Saraba Iyar

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