Ravindran Kesavan

Dear Sapnarani, Tantra is a device or method of awakening kundalini. All original tantra that Lord Siva declared are method of worship of shakti. Sakti resides in human body in the root chakra , and awakuining her and leading her to the crown where Siva reside is the purpose of tantra . In this process siddhis manifest as a result of development of various yogic centers in our body . Hense tantra is yoga and religion . All religions which deal with realization of god are technically tantra only. Tantras poriginal purpose is god realization amd liberation. Tantra makes the creature powerful as it transforms the ordiunary sole in to god. When siddhis (Powers) develop it can be used for good or bad purpose . That solely depends on the type of person one is. You need not fear it for its negative potential. All powers can be used for positive and negative ways. A knife for example could be used to cut vegitable or cut a throat of a person. Because a knife could be used to murder a person you dont blame the knif nor stop using it in your kitchen . Is int it? As long as you are clear what use you are going to put of tantra you need not fear it. It is fundamentally holy. Of course it can be misused by a person who is evil. If you are not evil you have nothing to fear. You should practice it as it is very effective way for god realisization and spiritual development. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> I saw the cosmos in its mind boggling complexity. There were many universes, with different laws. There were all possible universes. They were complete closed systems in themselves, with their own space times. There were beings of all sorts living in each one of these trillions of universes. I called this grand cosmos Mayicocosm as it is truly magical and wondrous and beautiful to witness it. And yes it was a Fractal design with a single system of algorithem behind it. (I will soon come to it) With all the multiplicity and complexity of the mayicosm it was one single organism with intelligence. I felt it to be a goddess – the one I worshiped. I dint see the Goddess in an anthropomorphic form. But I saw her in the very Cosmos – She was the cosmos and She was stunningly beautiful. The universe was not impersonal but personal and it interacted with me. There are many many things I learned day by day about the cosmos. I shall cut short of the details which I can go on and on, and come to certain final details as to its algorithm. <o:p></o:p> I saw the entire Mayicocosm arising from a mysterious triangle. Though I learned many things about these universes themselves, the source- the triangle and what lies behind - remained a mystery. Occasionally I wondered over it. A day came and the goddess suggested that it is the time to go beyond the triangle. And she initiated me to Lord Siva’s Mantra. When I meditated on that new mantra for some time, I got very close to the primordial triangle and I could see clearly what it was. It was made up, of Sanskrit alphabets. <o:p></o:p> Then I passed through the triangle to the other side. When this happened I noticed that my sense of self altered drastically. ‘I’ did not exist. My I- sense vanished. Not that I was not conscious. I was. But the Ego boundary – the usual ontological certainty – dropped. I panicked. Not finding me, and not sure of who I was, I shouted in fear “Who am I?” That shout was mere sound without any substantive meaning or reference to any ‘I’. (Note: In this description I am using the pronoun I still, though it is not appropriate. But still I retain it to describe the experience so as to communicate meaningfully in familiar language. Without the word ‘I’, I don’t know how to form the normal sentences and if I did, it sounds very weird to the listeners and readers and made no sense.) I got so scared and thought that I died, or am dying. To avoid my dying I clinged on to thoughts and generated madly and rapidly various I -thoughts: “I am so and so… I am the Son of so and so…I am working in such and such place…” etc but to no avail. My desperate attempt to define myself was turning out to be futile as all that thought I produced were mere empty thoughts with out any ontological ‘I’ content. Then I gave up my struggle to retain my I sense. <o:p></o:p> Then something mind boggling happened. What I am going to say below is to be is to be understood as mere attempt of language to capture what is essentially indescribable and beyond language. What I encountered was a true mystical experience – totally ineffable. It cannot be described at all. Yet I am attempting to talk as many mystics did, just to give out a pointer to what lies beyond, not to describe it. My language should be understood in this sense. Rather than keeping silent, which is the only sensible thing a mystic could actually do, I prefer to talk. My talk, that follows below in italics, must be not interpreted as description but as a pointer to a grand indescribable truth. I found myself in a state of complete silence – my mind disappeared totally with out any trace. No thought, no ego sense, no perception of any object – nothing. No I should not say that it was a nothing I must more appropriately state it as “No-Thing” Because it was not a coma state. Consciousness existed. But the consciousness was with out any object of consciousness. There was no duality of ‘I’ and ‘that’. There was no duality between knower and known. Not even space and time existed. This consciousness is beyond time. Another way to say the same is that time stopped – no past and future, only present. It was an eternal present – a moment in which all time – eternity- existed. It was a conscious eternal moment. And it was omniscient though there was no object. I call it for naming sake Siva Consciousness, as I was meditating on Siva’s mantra before entering in to this mysterious state. There was no difference in this between my consciousness and Siva consciousness. There was only one consciousness. I existed in indistinctly one with this mysterious Siva consciousness. It was me, but a mysterious me, a transcendental me. Hence to refer to this transcendental aspect of me I shall use the royal ‘We’ instead if ‘I’ (to indicate it was Siva as well as me but not in a dualistic sense). Then from the depth of this mysterious consciousness We generated a stirring, and that stirring arose in the form of a sound. Along with this sound arose time. The sound sounded like Om initially but soon it resolved in to a serious drum beats (of a small drum that one finds in the hand of Siva’s anthropomorphic form) .The drum beating sound evolved in to the entire Sanskrit alphabet. Then the alphabet sounds formed a triangle generating the first space. Then We produced fourteen strings of sounds, defining the rules or formulas to be applied to the triangle of letters. The resultant was the fabric of mantras emerging from the triangle of letters and evolving in to a grand fabric of mantras. This was the cosmos. All these while We were in a state of Omniscience, Omnipotence and Ecstasy. <o:p></o:p> Then I got snapped off from the ‘We’ state and landed in to my familiar I consciousness. The ecstasy in a reduced scale continued for days even in the normal state. Though I was no more omniscient, there was a new intelligence that I found with me then on. I understood empathetically all the spiritual texts and mystic’s writing, which I could not make sense before. The experience gave a completely new way of understanding material world too I knew intuitively that Unified theory of Physics was true, and one single theory of everything was posible <o:p></o:p> This is how I became a scientific mystic. (There are times I cried in gratitude for this experience. I dint know how come I had this experience as I felt that I was completely undeserving.) <o:p></o:p> The following intuitive positions might Interest You: The whole world is fractal design There is a simple and coherent system of initial algorithm behind it Consciousness is the source. Universe exists in consciousness or came from consciousness. Consciousness there fore has free will as it is the one which choose the initial conditions – the very algorithms of the universe. One single point generating the entire universe could be a viable model though I did not see any initial geometric point as source. But I did see one vibration, one sound, evolving to the entire universe. Hence I should have no problem in assuming that one particle was vibrating to produce that sound at least as a model. Of late I have many problems with my insights. If I don’t use reason and just go by my experience alone I have no conflict between science and religion and between monism and dualism. But when I use reason I do have conflict in many of the insights and positions that I institutively take. The problem is one of reason and Language. Regards, K.Ravindran

On Body, World and Consciousness <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Bart, <o:p></o:p> I shall attempt certain rudimentary level answer to your questions. The answers are not neat and clean as there are problems which I myself have not resolved rationally. I shall, state my conjectures as well as the problems with them. <o:p></o:p> As to the distinction between body, world and consciousness, body is part of the world, and made up of the same stuff that world is made up of – atoms and chemical elements. The organization differs - but it is essentially part of the world. However the distinction could be made between world and body by the presence of Prana in the body. The body of living organisms is not just matter organized and run by physical forces and chemical processes; though that is part of the body being it belongs to the material realm. What distinguishes a body from the world is that it is run by a system of pranic forces. <o:p></o:p> Consciousness is a much confused word in literature. At the very mundane level it refers to mind and starts with sense experience. Sense experience cannot be physical as we cannot find them anywhere in the physical realm. In my post no 155 I touched up on this. The greenness of the grass is not in the grass not even in the light no in the eye but a response of the brain. Even the greenness could not be found in the brain if we cut open the brain and observe it physically. Our phenomenal experience of green is supposed to be in our mind screen somehow mysteriously pops up in to our Mind when an impulse reaches and triggers certain portion of our brain. Hence strictly speaking the greenness of the grass, the coldness of the snow and the hardness of the steel are no where to be found in the physical world, not even in our brain but in the mind. Sense experience is part of cognitive system. The governing system is the information processing system which is yet different from the physical processes as well as from the pranic processes. It is here neural network and neurograms come in to picture. Mind is considered to be conscious. With out consciousness the concept ‘mind’ makes no sense. Mind is of conscious stuff. . Hence one meaning of consciousness is that the quality of having sense experience. When we say I am conscious we mean we sense something -we are having sense experiences. These sense experiences need not be related to or aspects of the external physical world. For example when we dream, we do experience many things that are not coming from external world. Thus it is certainly possible that mental event could be the cause of another mental event. Neurogram output could be the input for the neurogram. But that does not imply free will. Not that I am denying freewill but the feedback loop in neurogram functioning doesn’t give it free will in a stricter sense of the term. As long as it is law bound free will has no justification. I shall touch up on the notion of genuine free will later. In one sense Consciousness can be equated with the very functioning of neurogram. But there are problems with this view. Consciousness implies free will. If it is merely a product of mechanical processes or if it functions like mechanical gadget then in which way we are justified to call it consciousness? Why not we call it just material gadget – may be a very complex one - (with out any consciousness). More over conscious ness seems to evade all attempts of our conceptualizing it. I shall come to it latter, after sharing my experience with a pure form of mystical consciousness. My hypothesis is that when the neurogram processes information from the external world it produces the phenomenal world. When it process information from the body itself taking the signals from the living body, it produces the pranisc body. And when the neurogram turns on to itself, when it is in a reflexive mode, it generates the pranava body. Thus pranava body is something to do intimately with consciousness. But this is only a hunch. There is a hitch in this way of interpreting. The entire experience of mine has been internal exclusively. I did not physically look at the world in my mystical experience. The whole experience has been internal, when my eyes remain closed and my other sense organs were all inactive. So which way I am justified in making the distinction that I am making regarding the origin of stimulus? Did I know any thing at-all of the external universe? If the answer is affirmative then does it imply that the world exists inside my mind or consciousness? Though once I was an idealist and believed that the world is actually an illusion or hallucination existing in exclusively in consciousness, I am not that sure of that position now. There is a Realist –Idealist conflict now in my mind. This is a puzzle I need to solve. <o:p></o:p> For the time being I shall narrate my direct experience with free will – determinism issue. In one phase of my experience I witnessed that all my life events – everything that happened in my life - has been completely determined till the time of the experience. Everything is preprogrammed so as to happen that way, culminating in to the mystical experience. I saw clearly how my entire life is a program. Before I thought that I acted with free will but that is just because I did not have the deeper and holistic perspective. In my mystical state I saw the whole universe, including my life, is one single orderly design. And the design is perfect. The hole is a dance of Siva, well ordered, beautiful and perfect. All my complaints vanished in this knowledge, knowing that my life – the small individual organism that I, called I – is in fact a part of the grand dance of Siva. <o:p></o:p> However I should admit that fundamentally consciousness has to be free. If that is not the case it cannot be called consciousness at all If consciousness functions just like a mechanical gadget obeying laws. Free will exists at certain level – in the spiritual realm - not in the empirical material level. God – the consciousness behind the universe - is free and to the extend I am one with that consciousness I am free too. I shall return back to this issue latter. <o:p></o:p> Though Monism apples to me a lot spiritually - I thought I had experienced the monistic oneness in my spiritual experience- intellectually I am not sure, as there are many unresolved problems with it. Dualism seems to be an inescapable position, though I don’t emotionally like it. <o:p></o:p> I don’t know whether I have answered your questions or raised more questions on my part. Discussion I believe is the only way in these philosophical and intellectual pursuits. <o:p></o:p> Regards, K.Ravindran

Deare Just Rish, Hope you dont mind my advise on the medical examination. You know when you do japa or some sort of meditation your breathing pattern changes automatically- It slows down. When this happens the supply of oxygen to the blood is reduced. This can affect the heart when there is any problem with the heart . It is better to rule out that possibility. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Justrish, Do analise that the heaviness is due to the emotion that arise in your heart for the god. If no such direct correlation exists then it could be understood in termes of the pranic energy dynamics introduced by meditation. It is also a good idea too have a medical check up of the heart. just to rule out any cardiac symptoms. If there is no emotional explanation as well as medical cause then There is a third way to understand these phenominon. There are three bodies. The physical cellular body, (Stula sarira in sanskrit. Stula = gross) the Energy meridian body ( Prana sarira . Prana = vital energy Chi or qi energy in chinese) and mantra body (pranava sarira . Pranava = Sound in Sanskrit) Pranava body is the causal boidy. When we alter this layer of our being it results in the changes in prana energy nmmeridian and that results in physical phenominon. Hence when you act on your mantra body it shows up in the physical phinominon. Little more of these three bodies I am discussing in the forum "Does free will exist" You can read it in my today's and yester day's posts in that forum. (They are little longish posts and I am not repreting them here. ) Regards, K.Ravindran

I guess that you mean that your chanting is silent in the mind not the shivering, right? Shoivering is verymuch physical right? In fact Silent chanting is supposed to be more potent in mantra science . It acts on kundalini that way. (However Bhakti yoga has a different perscription . Mantra is chanted loud as in singing the lord's song. No neecd to get confused over it. They atre different paths leading to different results. In bhakti yoga usually there is no kundalini raising, though it can happen in intense bhakti.) Regartds, K.Ravindran

It is normal and happens wqhen kundalini is activated. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, Let me now depart from the more or less scientific insights to religious insights proper that I gained in my experience. I shall provide the link between the science and religious experience through the concept of Neurogram. Though I am trying my level best to make sense through rational concepts still many of my ideas in this post might sound bizarre. Do forgive me for my inability to communicate my direct experience more clearly. Though there are many varieties of neurograms and each composes the world differently, generally, to adopt a grand classification system, neurogram has three qualitatively distinct hierarchical structures. The lowest structure takes up the external stimulus, computes and outputs the sensory phenomenal world. This is the type of neurogram that we human have, and is the type we share with the entire variety of species on earth right from protozoa. While the complexity increases as the level of evaluation is higher, the quality remains the same. That is all the neurograms of all the creatures outputs a phenomenal world in terms of senses: Visual, Auditary, Somatosensory , Olfactory and gustatory, as a response to the real world. Not that all creatures have all five, but the general quality of experience of all creature is the same. They all experience the world through these set of sensory modes. Next level of neurogram is qualitatively different from this. It takes the input from the world and outputs an energy configuration. At this level one sees the world as energy configurations, in terms of five fundamental energies. (Present science tally with the energy view. Where it differs from my experience is as to the number of fundamental forces. Science recognizes four fundamental forces, instead of five, as the foundation of the universe). <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> The third level neurogram is qualitatively different from this even. This highest level neurogram outputs sound patterns- Mantras. The world is experienced as a system of mantra strings. (This might have something intimate to do with the string theory view of the universe) These mantra strings are made up of five elementary sounds. (They are H, Y, R, V, and L.) In addition to these five , which are closely associated with the material world , there are five more associated with the inner reality pertaining to mind and consciousness , these are the five the sounds A, I , Ri, U and Lri.) Everything in the universe could be perceived as made up of these sounds in complex permutations and patterns. Though these elementary sounds are foundational the actual perception was more complex. These elementary sounds by combination generate more sound codes and form the whole code system resulting in to a universal language that closely resembles the Sanskrit language. These sound codes are the bases of the universe. I perceived the entire universe to be a symphony, of a celestial song, in a primordial and universal language very close to that of Vedas. I heard Veda like chants from the very universe – nay the universe was this very Veda like chant. I am qualifying it as ‘Veda like’ because what I heard is more perfect in form and music, then the presently available Vedas and its intonated singing practiced by the Vedic priests. . Veda is an approximation to the song of the Universe. <o:p> </o:p> On three worlds<o:p></o:p> I saw the world in three distinct perspectives depending on the neurogram that was active. I saw the world as matter. I also saw world as an energy pattern - as force field. I also saw world as pure mantra structure. Everything in the world was mantra, a mere sound pattern – not the sound heard by the ears, but the sound of vibrating energy of some sort of strings. Ultimately everything is mantra – vibrating sounds. These sounds appear to be energy at a lower level and finally as matter at lowest level of perception. On three bodies <o:p></o:p> Just like there are three realms of the world I found three bodies in me. The first was the cell body made up of chemical element and compound. The next was the prana body made up life energy (Prana) meridians. And I saw myself possessing a pure mantra formmadeup of pure sound frequencies. This is called Pranava Body (Pranava = sound, in Sanskrit). Of the three, Mantra body is the cause. (The Pranava body is made up of five elementary sounds A, I , Rri , U and Lri ) <o:p> </o:p> Once mantra body undergoes a change for whatever reason, it soon alters the prana body and finally the cellular body. I say the possibility of application of this in healing practice. It is a belief in some system of healing that diseases could be cured my prana therapy or by pure mantra. There ios a possibility of this because much before the disease manifest in the physical body, it originates in the mantra body by way of distortions in the mantra structure, and descends to pranic level and finally to physical level. <o:p> </o:p> I also saw the possibility of completely transmuting the physical body in to pranic body and finally in to mantra body. I say visions of being living in certain advanced worlds doing this feat when they die. That is they don’t die but transmute their physical cellular body in to pure mantra body. On evolution <o:p></o:p> I noticed evolution occurs at three qualitatively distinct phases. The first phase of evolution is the cellular body evolution dictated the laws of nature. This lasts till one reaches human form. The present human form and human neurogram is not the final level of evolution. There a little more to be evolved but the general neurogram quality will not change though complexity will increase. The next post-human evolution is characterized by technological progress. In the near future human race will progress tremendously in science and technology, would discover a Unified Theory and invent Space Ship would migrates to different planets in space, would solve food and the energy scarcity. And would construct and live in technological paradises. That would be the end of the physical evolution- evolution with cellular body. The physical body would stop evolving then. <o:p> </o:p> The next phase is the evolution is of prana body and is dictated by the laws of karma. This develops the race of Adepts – with superhuman powers to levitate travel everywhere at will becoming as big as a galaxy or as universe or as a particle living as long as one desire etc. All these powers are natural to the prana body, disembodied from the gross material cellular body. <o:p> </o:p> The third phase is the evolution of the mantra body resulting in god race. Gods have only pure mantra form. Evolution of this form depends on god’s grace and mantra initiation by guru and practice. Laws of Mantra dictates the evolution of this form. <o:p> </o:p> On Beings and Realms These three kinds live in three realms. The material beings live in various material realms – real planets of various kinds. Depending on the level of advancement in evolution of the inhabiting beings the worlds have various levels of beauty abundance, some resembling very much like earth some like heavens and paradises of mythologies. They are realms that are more perfect and joyous. They could be compared to the heavens of religions. I am qualifying with the word ‘comparable’ cautiously to make a distinction that these realms I saw were heavenly as there were abundance and joy but I dint see any river of honey and sea of milk anywhere in the realms I witnessed. And I really think that these religious mythological descriptions of honey and milk flowing everywhere with golden mud and <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Gem</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Mountains</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> are metaphoric of abundance - not literal – based on human wishes. . What I saw actually was a beautiful world with very advanced and intelligent being with super human powers, living there like gods of mythologies. Consider them as super human civilizations. Some of the worlds are technologically advanced with space ship and the like, and created their abundance and beauty and joy with technology. These are real material worlds – real planets. There is a difference between these kinds of material heavens and the spiritual heavens described below. <o:p> </o:p> There were other realms of no aging no disease and no death, with eternal youth with many super human powers. These beings are basically the second kind - Pranic beings. <o:p> </o:p> Some are realms of pure mantras with no materiality. They are realms of gods. <o:p> </o:p> The realms of prana and mantra are not realms that are located at some far away place from earth. Pranic being have no particular place and can live anywhere. Mantric beings live everywhere. In fact spatial consideration does not apply to them. They exist here and now in earth. We with lower level of evolution and equipped with lower neurogram cannot perceive these realms. When we change our neurogram this very earth becomes those heavens. Depending on which pranava body we embody the earth reveals as the corresponding heaven. <o:p> </o:p> When I chanted a particular mantra for a particular period of time my neurogram changed to a particular kind and my pranava body changed, to become similar (if not same) of a body of the god whose mantra it was and the world transformed to the heaven of that god. Everything around is divinized. I experimented with different mantras of gods. And the world transformed (Intuitively) in to those heavens. When I chanted the Krishna mantra my soul became like <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the very earth became Goloka. Thus Goloka and Satya loka and Siva loka are not some far away places but states of perception of the very world where we live right now. <o:p> </o:p> Thus by simply chanting the mantra one can convert the world in to the respective heaven. It is simply done by the work of transmuting the awareness by transmuting the neurogram, and neurograms are the aspects of mantras. I guess this is the task that ISKON is involved with. <o:p> </o:p> Regards, K.Ravindran

The connotation of very long period of time for a yuga is of puranic view. In Veda, the woed Yuga refer to a62 full moon and 62 new moon ihat is about five years. By puranic concept we are just at the bugining of kali -a long long way to go.By the vedic notion we have already crossed many many kaliyugas already. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, I perhaps can agree on this with you . I used the word strings not very literlally though there are lots of similarity between strings of the string theorist and what I saw. If You are tollerent of some bizarre stuff, I can right away introduce what my exact perception was. What I saw can be more adequately described as mantras. - sound vibrations. Everything in the universe is ultimately sounds - this is the perception. And these ultimate sounds basically very few. Five vovals ( from the sanscrit vovals) and five consonents. To be specific the vowels are A, I , U , Ri Lri and the consonents are H, Y, V , R , L. Of course these are the basic sounds of the entire existence They construct other sounds by combinations and the compunds thus formed permute to form strings of sound paterns to generate very complex patterns . This is what I called srtrings. I called it strings because they are vibrating things much like vibrations of a guitar strings. I shall post some more on this soon. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> The discussion prompts me to jump of quickly the sequence that I planed for my presentation of the mystical experience. Let me present certain material that I thought I will present latter, though at the cast of thoroughness and adequate clarity. What I present is a little sketchy as I am not presenting the ideas fully is a detained manner, and jumping off the sequence of ideas. . <o:p></o:p> It is true that the circuits of the past that fall out of use in evolution lies dormant in our neural structures. Nothing is lost. On this I have direct experience. Based on this fact to consider that that all dormant portions are to do with the past seems unlikely. I have reasons to believe that certain dormant portions have to do with future potentials, rather than with the past relics. <o:p></o:p> My reasons are: (1) Sequence of experience: In my regression of the evolution sequence I did not notice these neural circuits and programs at any subhuman stage. I noticed they came to be effective in the progressive stage after the human stage. (2) Complexity: I noticed the neurogram of subhuman stages are less complex than the human neurogram and the neurogram that I found associated with the dormant state that unfolded latter than human were higher in complexity than the present human neurogram. (3) Knowledge: The neurogram is responsible is generating knowledge of the world. While the pre human neurogram are much simpler and primitive in schemes of knowing the world and the knowledge generated by the neurogram that unfolded at the post human stage as I experienced is more sophisticated and tally with the lattest scientific view of the world. For example while in my regressive stage no where I found the world to be as science describes it, and seen it as sense experience of a simpler kind, when the post human neurogram unfolded I found the world to be a pattern of energy and latter when still more complex higher neurogram unlashed, I found the world to be strings of vibrating things – mantras. I saw the world as a web of mantras which tally with the string theory notion of the universe and this I could find nowhere in the lower species that I witnessed. ( I did not know any thig about the scientific string theory when I experienced this vision) My logical understanding also changed with the unfolding of these neurograms. I could naturally think with quantum logic rather than the Aristotelian logic (which I used in the more mundane human phase and at animal level of existence I did not find any conscious use of logic at all). (4) Power: I found that the power increased along with knowledge as natural application of knowledge. I found that the new neurogram that unfolded in my brain is associated with technological and super human powers, which no animals possess. For example during this phase I intuitively gained knowledge on how to trigger and unlash fission in ridiculasly simple ways , how to invent space ships, how to harness the power from the black hole, etc. ( All of which I feared and I prayed to god to errase these knowledge from my brain. Latter I forgot them neatly and unrecoverably - But I vouch that these are real posibilities , not my imagination - more of it perhaps latter) I also saw the possibility of super human (Yogic) feats like clairaudience, clairvoyance, x- ray vision telekinesis, transmigration to another body, etc. (5) Extra terrestrial and heavenly worlds: When the neurogram of what I call future potentials unfolded I simultaneously also experienced corresponding worlds where creatures of the appropriate neurograms lived. They were all creatures far advanced in science and technology and spiritual wisdom with worlds more beautiful and perfect than ours, which they seems to have created by their knowledge. There is a perfection and advancement that this new neurograms are associated with that the old animalistic one does not share. <o:p></o:p> Though the idea that future development is all already coded in the organism is against the essential teaching of Darwinian evolution, and makes evolution a teleological process – that is evolution is nor a random chance causal processes but a intelligent purposive teleological process – my experience strongly suggests such a possibility. <o:p></o:p> But I am not natural scientists and have no empirical experimental evidence for what I am saying. There is a possibility That I could be wrong and there are other possible explanations for my experiences. <o:p></o:p> Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear milly, I dont know whether that is a complaint . (Some religious mind have problem with science. I dont know you are refering to that 0 As to myself I am more of a mystic. I dont have the split between science and spirituality. I have seen it in my mystical experience most of science is trrue but only limited. There is no contradiction between science and religion as my understanding of science and religion. After all there3 is only one reality. Everything is spiritual Even material is spiritual. I dont mean that you have a problem of science - spirituality split. Only I am clarifyinmg my position in case you have a problem. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bija, Thanks for sharing. I can empathise with you on your pure simple bakt, as many of my mystical experience in fact came to me by bakti of goddess. I dint do much of yogic and tantric practice. It is all a showering grace of the goddess. I can understand you, though I am differently made and following a different path now. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bija, Thanks for sharing that. I know this inner way of knowing the universe or any knowledge for that matter is a true fact. Do you have any ideal of how this is working out? Any explanation? Conjectures? Conjectures from your own direct experience is more valuable. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Thanks for your clarification. In fact there is an experience of various relative scales of time in different frames of the world perceptions. I shall deal with that little latter, in these sequence of my experiences. Your point of one single dimensionless point generating the entire universe is also is an experience, though I did not experience it as a Point in the strict Geometric sense. But I did experience a single source beyond space and time generating space, time and the universe more of that latter. Your conjectures are well supported by my direct experience. Let me move on to some more of my experience. But before that, let me summarize the first three days essential insight as these fight insights provided the schema to comprehend the rest of my mystical experiences. <o:p></o:p> (1) I saw my body as an assemblage of cells evolved over a period of time right from protozoa to human. Let me call the body of cells the Cell body – the cell body is made up of gross chemical elements, (and the compounds of them). (2) I saw the entire evolution sequence in terms a Life energy meridian structure. Let me call it the Pranic meridian. (3) I saw the evolution sequence in terms a neural software programming. I have a Nerogram. Each species has a specific neurogram and that specific neurogram is responsible for generating a phenomenal (and conceptual) world for the creature. The neurogram is the central concept that helped me to comprehend all the rest of my experience. The world is relative to, or contingent upon, the neurogram. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I saw that, in the case of a human brain (I mean my brain), the brain is yet unused neural networks presently nonfunctional. These dormant neural nets can be opened up and activated. I saw clearly when I chanted the mantra this was happening to my brain. That is, the mantra has an intimate link with the neurogram. I saw how the mantra that I was chanting is altering my usual neurogram and completely newer versions of neurogram came to effect. Depending up on the type of neurogram , I saw the world differently. In fact day by day I saw (i.e., perceived and conceived) the world differently. My familiar world dissipated to give rise to newer and newer worlds. This is the crux of the following many many days of my mystical experiences. Some of the visions I had can be describable in already familiar words. Some required completely new vocabularies as the worlds I say are not the normal ones and nothing in those experiences corresponded to the normal words and language we presently possess. Some were completely out of the realm of language, that part of my experience is Mystical in the sense it is Ineffable. <o:p></o:p> Perhaps these dormant potentials belong to the future evolutionary states. I thought that these belong to future evolution of human. That is, not only the past record is preserved in the brain even future blueprint is already present. Though I am not objectively sure of this but there are reasons to believe that these experiences belong to future human kind. The reason is that I saw these states as a natural sequence of unfolding of the experience in my forward phase of the evolution sequence in the fourth day on wards. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The fourth day on wards<o:p></o:p> In my fourth day, I found that my dormant portion of the neural network opening up and activating new neurograms then I say an amazing vision I saw my body – my skin boundry - growing in size and it included the entire universe. Now I say the universe inside my body. Everything that existed in the universe existed in my body. The five elements, the earth, the oceans, the fire, the air the space, the stars, the galaxy and the black hole…, everything. My body contained the entire macrocosm and I witnessed the emergence and evolution and dissolution of the universe in side my body. This I call the Viswaupa the universal form. <o:p></o:p> This mega experience continued day after day to reveal me many aspects of the universe some known to the scientists as scientific cosmology some yet to be found in science but could be found in religious writings and some completely new – At least I did not read of them so for any where. (I shall come to these, latter some other time) <o:p></o:p> Apart from the scientific cosmology, which I will not describe and waste your time, as you know it, I shall note two facts. One: that mystic claim: Whatever is there out side – the entire macrocosm is there in the body – the macrocosm. And hence all that is there to know in the universe could be known through a mystical trance – an internal intuitive vision. Entire science could be learned by a non empirical mode of knowing from with in one’s own body. Two: the inner vision is more broader and deeper than the scientific method of empiricism could reveal. There are many aspects of reality that I found in my direct intuitive experience that empirical method cannot reveal. For example, consider the Visva rupa (Universal form) in the body. Not only the entire evolutionary memory is contained in the body (which I learn from now that science could account for) but the entire history of the evolution of the universe is contained in the body. I don’t know how to make sense of this with scientific rigor. Here I have a choice: Either I accept the scientific tenet and assume that what I saw is an illusion, as there is nothing like that in the body. Or I assume that science is inadequate and some how the body mirrors the universe in the mystic’s style. Well I know now for certain that the mystic experience exists as I witnessed myself. But what I am still not clear about is that it is just a vision produced by my brain program, or there is a real basis to it. <o:p></o:p> Right now the only case for science of religion is that, what I saw is still comes under the preview of science, as the vision is not a nothing, sprang out of nowhere but the product of a neurogram. There is a basis of the vision in terms of my brain processes. But this is still not a perfect justification for the vision being objectively real, as it could be a truth merely existing in the mind alone. <o:p></o:p> What do you think of this issue? Is it possible that our brain or the cells or the DNA molecule could contain the entire history of the evolution of matter itself from the big bank onwards, with all the chemical evolution preceding forming DNA? To my mind this seems to be impossibility. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Eshwar, Technically the word Coma refers to the state of complete unconsciousness. No mental activity of any sort. Only vegitative functions like heart beat, and breathing goes on. Mentally the person is as good as dead. Regards, K.Ravindran

Any thing related to material existence is wery well explained by science rather than religion. Evolution theory is correct There cannot be any doudt on this now in the 21st centuary, though there are some still debate about science. What possibvly could still be doubted in darvin's theory is Darvin's assumption that the evolution is determined by random chance process of survival of the fittest. There is valied doubt on this view. It is more reasonable to assume that evolution is governed by a very purposive integent teleological purpose. This is where Darvin went wrong not in the details of evolutionary history - there are solid proof to the verasity of the evolutionary sequence now. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Dev, My appologies if I have offended your religiopus sentiment . I was only replying generally to Dasanudas's wonder of how one can feel like having sex in a presion. The answer was not meant for Vasudeva. It was a general one. In any case my appology again for I was not sufficiently sensitive to the religious sentiments. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Srikanth, Nice to have known you. Do keep in touch once in a while. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Milly, I too have a masive Mystical experience. I am discussing this in the forum "Does free will exist?"from post no. 107 onwords. Regards, K.Ravindran

On my Mystical experience <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Bart, I am introducing some early part of my prolonged massive mystical experience. This experience is just introductory ones and strictly cannot be called Mystical.. True Grand mystical Experience followed latter. But these are parts of the total grand Mistical Experience that I had. I will introduce slowly part by part. So has to keep the posting short enough. Also I have certain questions for you from the present selection. <o:p></o:p> First day <o:p></o:p> My first mystical experience occurred one day when I was meditating on the mantra of Goddess to which I was formally initiated. That particular day I felt while meditating that something soft descended on my crown. This disturbed my meditation and a thought occurred to me that some thing like a mesh of spider web must have fallen on my head from the roof. Or some moth like creature must have came and sat on my head. I touched my head and opened my eyes to check in the mirror. There was nothing physical on my head. But the feeling persisted. And when I closed my eyes again and looked internally at the top of my crown mentally, I saw a pair of female feet. And as my mind was fixed in it I felt heat arising all over my body. I also became intensely aware of all the minute parts of my body. I also felt like lying down. I thought I was developing a high fever. Since that was already late night, I decided to go to the physician next day, stopped meditation and lied down. The aware ness of my body intensified. I became aware of every cell of my body. Then I saw clearly that my body was undergoing a transformation in its form. I felt I have an animal body of some sort. And that animal form was not stable. . It was going continuous transformation. In a very short time I became different different animal forms. I got jittered by this and opened my eyes to check. But when I opened my eyes I found every thing is normal with my body- it didn’t became an animal of any sort physically. But as soon I closed my eyes I could see and feel that I possess a different body. I got very anxious about all this weird experience. I thought I am going mad and I Prayed to the goddess, helplessly. As soon as I prayed for help from the crown of my head goddess’s voice arose: “ Do not get scared. You are not sick or mad. You are seeing what all the past seers – Rishis - have seen. You are having a grand mystical experience. I am showing you grand secrets - don’t fear. Just relax and be open to that experience and learn”. As soon as I heard goddess voice I became reassured and relaxed. I knew goddess is always with me and would never let me down. Then I started enjoying the show. My form went on transforming to many many animals. Initially it was confusing but soon it became clear to me that I was going through the entire evolution sequence in the reverse direction. I became all the creatures in the evolution chain from human form to a Protozoa. My experience of the external world also has been undergoing corresponding changes. For example when I became protozoa – a sort of creature with one cell like a jelly filled balloon, all that I could experience was Vibrations felt kinesthetically from a liquid (or water) medium around me. That was the world for me. A warms world was different from a moth’s world from a bats world and from a human’s world. <o:p></o:p> This was my first day’s experience and I went to sleep as a protozoa. Next morning when I awoke I find myself perfectly fit and normal. There was no need to visit a physician. <o:p></o:p> Second day<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I finished all my regular work in my office thinking of the evening eagerly. When I reached home in the evenings, I quickly finished my early simple sativic dinner in small quantity, waited for an hour or two for the food to digest and sat for meditation. As soon as I fixed my attention on my crown and chanted the mantra, the body heat arose and awareness increased. This time I saw my own internal body structure minutely. I became minutely aware of all the cells of my body and the interconnecting web of energy flow circuits. I say a very complex system of Energy flowing web, that the Hindus call Nadi . The life energy which the Hindus call prana , that the Chinese call Chi was flowing through a very complex system of billions of path ways. All the pathways from the billions of cells went to the center of the body and passed to the inside of my skull. Inside the skull there was another structure of mind boggling complexity of a web. That was my body. <o:p></o:p> Once I saw clearly these billions of nerve system as my body, then once again I started regressing in the evolution sequence as in the first day. But this time I say the entire evolution sequence in terms of the transformation of the pranic network. The network became simpler and simpler as I approached the protozoa. My brain neural net too were becoming simpler and simpler. I should say that I did not loose any nadi as such. But the path ways just closed down and nonfunctional as I regressed. <o:p></o:p> Then I progressed in the forward direction from protozoa to human. In this phace I saw how the nadis opened up and functional to grow and reach the complex billion pathway structure of human. I noticed that the present human brain is not completely opened up yet. There are massive portions of the neural web that lay dormant- nonfunctional. I saw their functions in a later mystical experience and I shall talk about this structure latter, when I come to that. <o:p></o:p> Third Day<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The third day I say a very strange fact about the brain, which I have never heard anywhere before. I saw that the brain is not only is a very complex structure of neural network which we all know, but also as a system that has a software program running in it. Just like a computer. I called this software running in our brain as Neurogram to mean Neurological Program. It is this software program of the brain is responsible for computing or composing our experience. <o:p></o:p> The third day I saw once again the evolution but in terms of Neurogram evolution. Each creature is endowed with a specific neurogram and that accounts for its experience of the world. A worm’s neurogram is different from that of a bat and is yet different from that of human. <o:p></o:p> It is the neurogram which computes the phenomenal world, given the input of energy pattern from the real world. <o:p></o:p> These three days of experience were the basis for the rest of the days of experience It is as if there three days are so arranged to provide the fundamentals for understanding the rest of my experience in the coming days. With out these introductory experiences the other experiences would make no clear sense to me and I would have concluded I am gone crazy - more of those experiences latter. <o:p></o:p> ************************ <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Dear Bart, I have a few queries now. (1) Is there any scientific basis that the entire evolutionary history is retained in the brain as some sort of biological memory? Or it is retained in the Genetic code? Even if there is no scientific theory at present do you think it is a possible idea given our brain structure? (2) Do you know any work or theory that confirms or even rudimentarily suggestive of the idea of a biological soft were program of the brain? What do you think of such an idea? Is it a possible hypothesis? <o:p></o:p> Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Milly, Garba dance has notking to do with Siva. It is the dance related to Shakti Durga who is of course the wife of Siva. The experiences you narated points out that you have deep spiritual connection with godess Durga. Regards, K.Ravindran

Dear Bart, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> I really don’t know anything of the external fractal world. All that I can be sure of is that brain design being fractal all that we experience could be only experienced in fractal designs perhaps. Let me illustrate the point that we don’t experience anything of the external world. (What I am going to say in this post is too elementary stuff for you and you know them already due to your science background. I am only being elementary to avoid isolated dialog between you and me in a public forum. Forgive me for my simplistic or trivial discussion in what follows.) <o:p></o:p> When I look through the window right now I see the green grass meadow out side my office. But is the grass really green? High school Physics told me that the grass a structure of molecules with out any colour. The colour is not in the grass but in the sun light When the light with all seven colours falls on the grass some colours are absorbed some scattered depending the molecular arrangement . In the case of grass all other colours of sun light except green are observed, only green being scattered . Hence I see grass as green. <o:p></o:p> Now that story is only tentative. In college we learn the colour is neither in the light. What light consisted of is electromagnetic waves. A wave is not colourful thing but just a movement. What I have been calling ‘Green’ is really a motion - a frequency band falling between495-570 nm <o:p></o:p> Now when this electromagnet wave reaches my eve the cells are so designed to differently respond to different range of frequency by emitting a neuro-electric pulse. There is no colour there either. When this neuro electric impulse reach a place in the brain called visual cortex and trigger a specific area I suddenly see a green colour. That the colour green is nowhere in the world it is a response of my brain to an electromagnetic frequency. This is true of all other colours as well. There are no colours in the world . Colours are the brain’s response to otherwise colourless electromagnetic vibrations, given by the correspondence schema : <o:p></o:p> Violet : 380-450 nm Blue : 450 -495 nm Green : 495-570 nm Yellow: 570-590 nm Orange : 590-620 nm Red : 620-750 nm <o:p></o:p> What I argued abour colour is true in the case4s of other sense experience too. There no sounds in the world. What we call sounds are actually silent movement patterns outside. I move my vocall card Air molecules pick up that motion and conduct to another’s eardrom which vibrate and is converted in to neuro electric pulse which goes to the auditory cortex of the brain where one suddenly hears the sound. <o:p></o:p> The phenomenal world that we experience is a response of our brain not what is actually there as it is in the real world. And it is our predicament that we can never experience the world as it is, as we cannot get out of our brain and see directly the world. Hence what we know is all our own brain states. Or rather Mind states – because the colour is not in the physical brain either. If you cut open my skull when I see the green grass meadow you will see no green colour in my visual, cortex. It is simply nowhere in the physical realm including my physical brain! <o:p></o:p> Hence I cannot for certain maintain that what I saw is a real physical structure. But What I know is that it is the way the brain or rather the mind is organized and creates the experience. On this Cognitive realm I have a lots and lots to say, due to my direct experience. The problem is that the experience is very vast, and I cannot discuss such immensity in a short forum like this. However I have a few enquiries for you and I need clarification from you on certain issues. I am in the process of systematizing my thought. I will share certain aspects of my experience and pose few questions soon. I hope I have answered your previous post. If I have not do let me know. <o:p></o:p> Your post helps me a lot. Perhaps we together could develop a new descipline of scientific spirituality. <o:p></o:p> Regards, K.Ravindran

Sex - reproductive urge - Survival instinct of the species - is much more stronger than anything else I guess. Ravindran

Dear Milly, It simply means that your mind is in siva and are cut out for Siva bakti. You must do sadana on which your mind naturally gets absorbed for complete benifit. No harm in experimenting and trying different things , but in duecourse settle on one mantra and stabilise in it. There is a reason for it. Every time you change your mantra you are changing the subtle formation that the mantra forms at a spiritual level. Every mantra has a consciousness associated with it. It is called its devada. The devada does not get formed if you keep changing the mantra. Mantra sastra prescribes chanting one mantra for millions of time for it's siddhi. Some mantras are prescribed for a life time even with out change. Do experiment initially, to discover what suits you the most. But then do settle down with one. Your other post on your strange experience with the garba dance on the wall as well as your dream of your mother as goddess confirmes that you are deeply attracted siva and Parvati from the depth of your mind. (Garba dance is gurga's dance) There is no point in fighting with your mind. Follow its intution and inclination in the mater of spiritual sadana. You will be richly rewarded. Everey one is uniquely cut out for a unique davada and mantra, according to mantra sastra and that devada and mantra will manifest in dreem, in visions and in reality as omens. I think Siva is calling you. His mantra camme to you isint it? And he is not leaving you. Listern to him. He is a very great god. He is a grand teacher. In case you need some other mantra he himself will instruct you that. For the time being Just surrender to him and follow him. He is truely truely wonderful teacher. You are very lucky and in safe hands,spiritually. I am talking from my direct experience. Regards, K.Ravindran