contraindications and hues

[Guest guest]

Dear Sharon,

 

I'm glad that you grasped the thought behind what I was asking.  Of course, I

know of these herbs used together in classical formulas.  But again this is a

problem that I have with the absolutism that one senses in many of the English

language Chinese medical texts and translations. The idea of certain herbs

being incompatable or contraindicated, negates the unique, specific

properties and individual characters that each medicinal substance conveys and

imparts,  and gives one the sense that either together they will do the patient

harm or will negate any benefit by prescribing these herbs

together.  Again, as is so important to teach students, Chinese medicine is

an art form, like sculpting, painting or creating music,  so unmechanical. 

And often the shades and hues that small doses of  " incompatable " herbs add to

a formula exquisitely harmonize the formula with the patient.      

 

You are indeed blessed to have the opportunity to connect with a teacher who

understands this principle.  But unfortunately, even supposed " masters "  

who have spent years memorizing herbal formulas and indications rarely dare to

go deeper, to question the subleties of why a particular herb works in a

formula, whereas another herb that seems to fit perfectly, and is almost

identical in properties, temperatures  and channels, doesn't. 

 

One final personal note of interest.  I had been including in my wife's

formula Huang Qi (as well as Tai Zi Shen, Bai Shao Yao and Zhi Gan Cao), and Shu

Di Huang.  Though she had been doing OK,  and has now gone 48 days without a

seizure (the second longest time in 20 years), she has been nervous, irritable,

spasmy, weak and phlegmy.  I took out of the formula Huang Qi, and replaced Shu

Di Huang with Huang Jing, and the spasms have decreased by at least 50%, shes

quieter and happier, isn't choking on phlegm, and is walking more erect. 

Pretty amazing, huh? 

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

sharon weizenbaum <sweiz

Chinese Medicine

Fri, April 16, 2010 3:50:25 AM

Re: Tonification with exterior patterns

 

 

Yehudah asks: 1. According to what you present in the name of Dr. Huang Huang,

does that mean that Huang Qi would be contraindicated in the presence of Bai

Shao and Gan Cao, and that a patient with muscular hypertonicity should never be

given Huang Qi even though they may also be Qi vacuous?

 

Sharon: Yikes! I don't means to present " in the name of Dr. Huang Huang " !! To be

clear, I only write what I understand and work with and this has been influenced

by Dr. Huang Huang. Other influences and even misunderstandings might color how

I work and what I express so I would not want to give any impression that I am

speaking for Dr. Huang Huang.

 

That said....There are classic formulas (Huang Qi Gui Zhi Wu Wu Tang, Huang Qi

Jian Zhong Tang etc.) that contain both Huang Qi, Gui Zhi and Bai Shao so, no,

it is not contraindicated to combine these by me or by Dr. Huang Huang. Also,

clinically, a person can have tight muscles and loose skin. But, more

importantly, a person does not necessarily need to have a lax exterior to use

Huang Qi. For me, this would be more of a requirement if the formula is led by

Huang Qi. For example, in a formula like Shi Quan Da Bu Tang, I see Huang Qi and

being used to help blood production in combination with Dang Gui as the main

reason it is used here. The person I would use this for would not necessarily

have a lax exterior. If they did, I would probably use more Huang Qi and

probably use a different formula strategy.

 

Yehuda asks: 2. You mention that he describes herbs such as Ren Shen, Xi Yang

Shen, and Gan Cao, as treating constitutional types who are skinny and dry. How

does he differentiate the usage of Hong Shen, Ren Shen, Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen

and Tai Zi Shen other then by temperature?

 

Sharon: As for Ren Shen, Xi Yang Shen, Tai Zi Shen and Dang Shen and how they

are differentiated by Huang Huang, I don't know. Gan Cao and Hong Shen are quite

different from these those.

 

I don't want to go into great detail here as to how I see these herbs or what

I've learned from Dr. Huang Huang but I think it may be important to say that,

for any herb, the various functions and characteristics of it are brought out by

how it is combined with other herbs in formula. So, for example, Dr. Huang Huang

teaches that Gan Cao acts in its ability to clear toxic heat for mouth or other

mucous membrane sores (in skinny weak people) when it is used in Gan Cao Xie Xin

Tang. (This is part of what makes it a great formula to use for weak patients

who are getting mouth sores as they undergo chemo or radiation). When Gan Cao is

used with Bai Shao in larger doses, it stops pain from spasms (in patients with

tight musculature) Gan Cao and Jie Geng are combined in lots of cough formulas

and they help prevent lung abscess and sooth sore throats. Of course we know

that Gan Cao in small doses is used to harmonize formulas and when it is

combined with Fu Zi

it helps to detoxify the Fu Zi toxin...etc. etc.

 

This is just using the example of Gan Cao. Of course the same is true of Huang

Qi....When it is combined in large doses with Tao Hong Si Wu Tang and Di Long -

numbness. Combined with Fang Ji - water swelling. etc.

 

Best

 

Sharon

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

www.whitepinehealin garts.com

Topics in Blog

sweiz

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

Heiner Fruehauf in his Gu article state the Daoist use Huangjing to ward off

parasites and calm the nervous sytem.

Ross

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Friday, April 16, 2010 11:20 AM

contraindications and hues

 

 

 

Dear Sharon,

 

I'm glad that you grasped the thought behind what I was asking. Of course, I

know of these herbs used together in classical formulas. But again this is a

problem that I have with the absolutism that one senses in many of the English

language Chinese medical texts and translations. The idea of certain herbs being

incompatable or contraindicated, negates the unique, specific properties and

individual characters that each medicinal substance conveys and imparts, and

gives one the sense that either together they will do the patient harm or will

negate any benefit by prescribing these herbs together. Again, as is so

important to teach students, Chinese medicine is an art form, like sculpting,

painting or creating music, so unmechanical. And often the shades and hues

that small doses of " incompatable " herbs add to a formula exquisitely harmonize

the formula with the patient.

 

You are indeed blessed to have the opportunity to connect with a teacher who

understands this principle. But unfortunately, even supposed " masters " who

have spent years memorizing herbal formulas and indications rarely dare to go

deeper, to question the subleties of why a particular herb works in a formula,

whereas another herb that seems to fit perfectly, and is almost identical in

properties, temperatures and channels, doesn't.

 

One final personal note of interest. I had been including in my wife's

formula Huang Qi (as well as Tai Zi Shen, Bai Shao Yao and Zhi Gan Cao), and Shu

Di Huang. Though she had been doing OK, and has now gone 48 days without a

seizure (the second longest time in 20 years), she has been nervous, irritable,

spasmy, weak and phlegmy. I took out of the formula Huang Qi, and replaced Shu

Di Huang with Huang Jing, and the spasms have decreased by at least 50%, shes

quieter and happier, isn't choking on phlegm, and is walking more erect. Pretty

amazing, huh?

 

Thank you,

 

 

 

 

________________________________

sharon weizenbaum <sweiz

Chinese Medicine

Fri, April 16, 2010 3:50:25 AM

Re: Tonification with exterior patterns

 

 

Yehudah asks: 1. According to what you present in the name of Dr. Huang Huang,

does that mean that Huang Qi would be contraindicated in the presence of Bai

Shao and Gan Cao, and that a patient with muscular hypertonicity should never be

given Huang Qi even though they may also be Qi vacuous?

 

Sharon: Yikes! I don't means to present " in the name of Dr. Huang Huang " !! To

be clear, I only write what I understand and work with and this has been

influenced by Dr. Huang Huang. Other influences and even misunderstandings might

color how I work and what I express so I would not want to give any impression

that I am speaking for Dr. Huang Huang.

 

That said....There are classic formulas (Huang Qi Gui Zhi Wu Wu Tang, Huang Qi

Jian Zhong Tang etc.) that contain both Huang Qi, Gui Zhi and Bai Shao so, no,

it is not contraindicated to combine these by me or by Dr. Huang Huang. Also,

clinically, a person can have tight muscles and loose skin. But, more

importantly, a person does not necessarily need to have a lax exterior to use

Huang Qi. For me, this would be more of a requirement if the formula is led by

Huang Qi. For example, in a formula like Shi Quan Da Bu Tang, I see Huang Qi and

being used to help blood production in combination with Dang Gui as the main

reason it is used here. The person I would use this for would not necessarily

have a lax exterior. If they did, I would probably use more Huang Qi and

probably use a different formula strategy.

 

Yehuda asks: 2. You mention that he describes herbs such as Ren Shen, Xi Yang

Shen, and Gan Cao, as treating constitutional types who are skinny and dry. How

does he differentiate the usage of Hong Shen, Ren Shen, Dang Shen, Xi Yang Shen

and Tai Zi Shen other then by temperature?

 

Sharon: As for Ren Shen, Xi Yang Shen, Tai Zi Shen and Dang Shen and how they

are differentiated by Huang Huang, I don't know. Gan Cao and Hong Shen are quite

different from these those.

 

I don't want to go into great detail here as to how I see these herbs or what

I've learned from Dr. Huang Huang but I think it may be important to say that,

for any herb, the various functions and characteristics of it are brought out by

how it is combined with other herbs in formula. So, for example, Dr. Huang Huang

teaches that Gan Cao acts in its ability to clear toxic heat for mouth or other

mucous membrane sores (in skinny weak people) when it is used in Gan Cao Xie Xin

Tang. (This is part of what makes it a great formula to use for weak patients

who are getting mouth sores as they undergo chemo or radiation). When Gan Cao is

used with Bai Shao in larger doses, it stops pain from spasms (in patients with

tight musculature) Gan Cao and Jie Geng are combined in lots of cough formulas

and they help prevent lung abscess and sooth sore throats. Of course we know

that Gan Cao in small doses is used to harmonize formulas and when it is

combined with Fu Zi

it helps to detoxify the Fu Zi toxin...etc. etc.

 

This is just using the example of Gan Cao. Of course the same is true of Huang

Qi....When it is combined in large doses with Tao Hong Si Wu Tang and Di Long -

numbness. Combined with Fang Ji - water swelling. etc.

 

Best

 

Sharon

 

Sharon Weizenbaum

86 Henry Street

Amherst, MA 01002

www.whitepinehealin garts.com

Topics in Blog

sweiz

 

[Guest guest]

Yehudah,

What's your thinking process of how Huang Jing has reduced Chana's spasms by

50% over the inclusion of Shu di huang?.. and the deletion of Huang qi.

This is very interesting. Both jing tonics seem to be sticky, but Shu di

could be steamed with a grain alcohol... not sure about Huang jing.

 

What about Huang qi... aggravating the spasms and the phlegm? Too much Qi

tonifying? Tonifying the yang over the yin? Was the Shu di the major

factor in the phlegm?

It seems that you've really had to refine your treatment protocols over the

years in balancing yin and yang for Chana.

 

From yin to yang... does this seem right?

Gui ban, E jiao, Shu di, (stickiest herbs)....Bai shao, Gou qi zi, Dang gui,

Huang jing...

Xi yang shen, Tai zi shen, Bai Ren shen, Ci wu jia, Dang shen, Bai zhu, Tu

si zi...

Gan jiang, Rou gui, Hong Ren shen, Lu rong, Fu zi, Wu tou

 

K

 

 

 

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Sharon,

>

> I'm glad that you grasped the thought behind what I was asking. Of course,

> I know of these herbs used together in classical formulas. But again this

> is a problem that I have with the absolutism that one senses in many of the

> English language Chinese medical texts and translations. The idea of certain

> herbs being incompatable or contraindicated, negates the unique, specific

> properties and individual characters that each medicinal substance conveys

> and imparts, and gives one the sense that either together they will do the

> patient harm or will negate any benefit by prescribing these herbs

> together. Again, as is so important to teach students, Chinese medicine is

> an art form, like sculpting, painting or creating music, so unmechanical.

> And often the shades and hues that small doses of " incompatable " herbs add

> to a formula exquisitely harmonize the formula with the patient.

>

> You are indeed blessed to have the opportunity to connect with a teacher

> who understands this principle. But unfortunately, even supposed " masters "

> who have spent years memorizing herbal formulas and indications rarely dare

> to go deeper, to question the subleties of why a particular herb works in a

> formula, whereas another herb that seems to fit perfectly, and is almost

> identical in properties, temperatures and channels, doesn't.

>

> One final personal note of interest. I had been including in my wife's

> formula Huang Qi (as well as Tai Zi Shen, Bai Shao Yao and Zhi Gan Cao), and

> Shu Di Huang. Though she had been doing OK, and has now gone 48 days

> without a seizure (the second longest time in 20 years), she has been

> nervous, irritable, spasmy, weak and phlegmy. I took out of the formula

> Huang Qi, and replaced Shu Di Huang with Huang Jing, and the spasms have

> decreased by at least 50%, shes quieter and happier, isn't choking on

> phlegm, and is walking more erect. Pretty amazing, huh?

>

> Thank you,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> sharon weizenbaum <sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>>

> To:

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> Fri, April 16, 2010 3:50:25 AM

> Re: Tonification with exterior patterns

>

>

> Yehudah asks: 1. According to what you present in the name of Dr. Huang

> Huang, does that mean that Huang Qi would be contraindicated in the presence

> of Bai Shao and Gan Cao, and that a patient with muscular hypertonicity

> should never be given Huang Qi even though they may also be Qi vacuous?

>

> Sharon: Yikes! I don't means to present " in the name of Dr. Huang Huang " !!

> To be clear, I only write what I understand and work with and this has been

> influenced by Dr. Huang Huang. Other influences and even misunderstandings

> might color how I work and what I express so I would not want to give any

> impression that I am speaking for Dr. Huang Huang.

>

> That said....There are classic formulas (Huang Qi Gui Zhi Wu Wu Tang, Huang

> Qi Jian Zhong Tang etc.) that contain both Huang Qi, Gui Zhi and Bai Shao

> so, no, it is not contraindicated to combine these by me or by Dr. Huang

> Huang. Also, clinically, a person can have tight muscles and loose skin.

> But, more importantly, a person does not necessarily need to have a lax

> exterior to use Huang Qi. For me, this would be more of a requirement if the

> formula is led by Huang Qi. For example, in a formula like Shi Quan Da Bu

> Tang, I see Huang Qi and being used to help blood production in combination

> with Dang Gui as the main reason it is used here. The person I would use

> this for would not necessarily have a lax exterior. If they did, I would

> probably use more Huang Qi and probably use a different formula strategy.

>

> Yehuda asks: 2. You mention that he describes herbs such as Ren Shen, Xi

> Yang Shen, and Gan Cao, as treating constitutional types who are skinny and

> dry. How does he differentiate the usage of Hong Shen, Ren Shen, Dang Shen,

> Xi Yang Shen and Tai Zi Shen other then by temperature?

>

> Sharon: As for Ren Shen, Xi Yang Shen, Tai Zi Shen and Dang Shen and how

> they are differentiated by Huang Huang, I don't know. Gan Cao and Hong Shen

> are quite different from these those.

>

> I don't want to go into great detail here as to how I see these herbs or

> what I've learned from Dr. Huang Huang but I think it may be important to

> say that, for any herb, the various functions and characteristics of it are

> brought out by how it is combined with other herbs in formula. So, for

> example, Dr. Huang Huang teaches that Gan Cao acts in its ability to clear

> toxic heat for mouth or other mucous membrane sores (in skinny weak people)

> when it is used in Gan Cao Xie Xin Tang. (This is part of what makes it a

> great formula to use for weak patients who are getting mouth sores as they

> undergo chemo or radiation). When Gan Cao is used with Bai Shao in larger

> doses, it stops pain from spasms (in patients with tight musculature) Gan

> Cao and Jie Geng are combined in lots of cough formulas and they help

> prevent lung abscess and sooth sore throats. Of course we know that Gan Cao

> in small doses is used to harmonize formulas and when it is combined with Fu

> Zi

> it helps to detoxify the Fu Zi toxin...etc. etc.

>

> This is just using the example of Gan Cao. Of course the same is true of

> Huang Qi....When it is combined in large doses with Tao Hong Si Wu Tang and

> Di Long - numbness. Combined with Fang Ji - water swelling. etc.

>

> Best

>

> Sharon

>

> Sharon Weizenbaum

> 86 Henry Street

> Amherst, MA 01002

> www.whitepinehealin garts.com

> Topics in Blog

> sweiz <sweiz%40rcn.com>

>

>