Uterine fibroids

[Guest guest]

, " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...> wrote:

> Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment of

> late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs?

 

Blue Poppy Press publishes at least two Research Reports on the CM

treatment of uterine myomas. I know for sure #32 and #173 deal with

this topic.

 

Bob

 

P.S. To the entire list, I just recently realized that some people

have e-mailed me at the address I had to set up when I became a

member of this group. I never check this address. So if anyone wants

to e-mail me " off-list, " my address is:

 

bob

[Guest guest]

I have found this condition to be successfully treated on manyoccasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 gramsper day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day).

>>>What do you mean by successfully treated

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...> wrote:

> Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment of

> late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs?

 

I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many

occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 grams

per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). I have never seen it

resolve with patent meds unless they are superconcentrated to give a

dose equivalent to this. Whatever else is going on, the branch often

involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually

involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu

yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression and

blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to address

the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic

recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have

described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang may

be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as the

branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I would

say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And

this can be confirmed with s/s. Women in these cases usually have a

history of liver depression which is evidenced with their menstrual

patterns. And dark, distended sublingual veins are quite common to

confirm blood stasis. (or maybe I just attract the livery ones!)

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many

> occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15 grams

> per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day).

> >>>What do you mean by successfully treated

 

based on ultrasound, fibroids were either reduced or disappeared.

symptoms also went away such as pain and bleeding

 

 

[Guest guest]

based on ultrasound, fibroids were either reduced or disappeared. symptoms also went away such as pain and bleeding>>>>>I have seen many successes and failures. I have an acupuncture colleague hear is the bay area that did everything finally she was tired of being anemic and did surgery. By the way one of the first patients I had in privet practice had fibroids with a bleeding problem. She did very well on Sun Tian wen jing tang 6g per day, a fairly low dose.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Todd et al.,

 

Being a gynecological specialist, I have quite a bit of experience

treating uterine myomas with CM. In addition, because so many women in

the patient population I serve have uterine myomas, I consciously and

deliberately make an effort to read as much in Chinese as I can on

this topic. Based on my personal experience and my research of the

Chinese literature, I think we need to be careful about the assumption

that there is either blood stasis and/or phlegm nodulation in all

cases of uterine myoma. This is a popular opinion among many Chinese

doctors in China who, like many of us, have trouble keeping their

apples and oranges in separate baskets. Many contemporary Chinese

doctors assume that uterine myomas correspond to the traditional

Chinese disease category of concretions and conglomerations (zheng

jia) and, from there, make the assumption of blood stasis as a major,

in some cases, omnipresent disease mechanism. However,it is debatable

whether or not a myoma which is not palpable from the outside of the

abdomen should, in fact, be classified as a concretion and

conglomeration.

 

In many women in their mid to late forties, the clinical symptoms of

their uterine myoma are only lower abdominal downward sagging,

fatigue, polyuria, and chronic leukorrhea. Typically, these patients

present a spleen-kidney dual vacuity pattern. Most, in my experience,

do not present clinically significant symptoms of blood stasis.

Whether or not the leukorrhea qualifies as a sign of phlegm is a

judgement call. There are arguments for seeing it merely as dampness.

However, there are proemodern cites supporting this as a sign of

phlegm. Other women in the same age group with uterine myomas mostly

present with profuse mentruation or flooding and leaking. In this

case, there is typically a spleen-kidney qi vacuity often complicated

by some sort of heat evils. Frequently, in these women, there are also

no marked signs or symptoms of blood stasis.

 

What I am getting at here is that, in my experience and according to

the famous contemporary Chinese doctor and gynecological specialist,

Liu Feng-wu, the best approach to the CM treatment of uterine myomas

is to base treatment on each individual patient's pattern and to not

make any a priori assumptions about CM disease mechanisms. I have seen

uterine myomas grow in response to blood-quickening therapy in

patients who did not have the signs and symptoms of blood stasis, and

for sure I have seen numerous myomas not shrink when treated for a

disease mechanism the patient did not present.

 

If anyone would like to read more about this topic, Liu Feng-wu has an

excellent essay on exactly this subject in The Essence of Liu

Feng-wu's Gynecology available from Blue Poppy Press. In fact, I

picked this book for publication largely because of this signle

important essay. In addition, many years ago, the Journal of the

American College of TCM published an issue with two articles on the CM

treatment of uterine myomas. One article was a clinical audit based on

a standard blood-quickening formula. While a significant proportion of

the patients in this study experienced some improvement, the cure rate

was, if I remember correctly, significantly less than 50%. This

article was followed by another by an author who was identified as

" old Chinese doctor " so and so. His article emphasized that one should

not treat myomas on the basis of any assumptions about blood stasis

but rather should be based on the patient's personal presenting

patterns. This old Chinese doctor's article took the form of case

histories, in one of which the patient's myoma disappeared after the

adiminstration of Liu Wei Di Hang Tang because the patient's clinical

signs and symptoms were that of yin vacuity. (This article was

seminally instrumental in my own development as a doctor of CM.)

 

If a uterine myoma is diagnosed by bimanual palpation and/or

ultrasound but the myoma is not palpable from the outside of the

abdomen alone, then, according to the logic of CM disease diagnosis

(bian bing), the woman's CM disease is not necessarily zheng jia but

may be dai xia (abnormal vaginal discharge), yao tong (low back pain),

fu tong (abdominal pain), duo niao (profuse urination), beng lou

(flooding and leaking), or some combination of these.

 

Just as not all Chinese doctors practicing in the U.S. are equally

knowledgable or skilled, not all Chinese doctors in China are equally

educated and intelligent. Point being, there are some common

assumptions among mediocre Chinese practitioners in the PRC which are

not necessarily correct, and one has to be very careful about

accepting whatever a native Chinese doctor says as gospel. While some

may argue that this undercuts the utility of reading the Chinese

medical literature from China, I believe it argues for exactly the

opposite. Unless one reads that literature widely, one may come across

a single point of view which may or may not be correct. It is only by

reading widely that one comes to see that there is a multiplicity of

views and begins to be able to judge the merits of each one.

Currently, our English language literature has been created mostly by

accident, meaning that the selection of specific books and articles

for publications has been relatively serendipitous. One of the

benefits of erudition is a more panoramic view of the field, and it is

only by seeing all the possibilities that one can then deliberately

judge and choose.

 

Bob

 

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " sjeevanjee " <sjeevanjee@a...>

wrote:

> > Is there anyone with information/articles regarding the treatment

of

> > late stage uterine fibroids with chinese herbs?

>

> I have found this condition to be successfully treated on many

> occasions with the use of high dose powdered extracts (about 15

grams

> per day) or raw herb formulas (about 100 g/day). I have never seen

it

> resolve with patent meds unless they are superconcentrated to give a

> dose equivalent to this. Whatever else is going on, the branch

often

> involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually

> involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu

> yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression

and

> blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to

address

> the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic

> recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have

> described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang

may

> be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as

the

> branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I

would

> say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And

> this can be confirmed with s/s. Women in these cases usually have a

> history of liver depression which is evidenced with their menstrual

> patterns. And dark, distended sublingual veins are quite common to

> confirm blood stasis. (or maybe I just attract the livery ones!)

>

 

[Guest guest]

beng lou (flooding and leaking),

>>>Usually the only problem that really needs treatment

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " pemachophel2001 "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

Based on my personal experience and my research of the

> Chinese literature, I think we need to be careful about the assumption

> that there is either blood stasis and/or phlegm nodulation in all

> cases of uterine myoma.

 

Bob

 

No one appreciates the points you made in your post more than me. My

pet peeve is knee jerk reactions in TCM diagnosis (like nightsweats =

yin xu). I think everyone needs to take to heart the very important

points you raised. I am not an GYN specialist, but I have been

personally involved in the successful treatment of about 30 cases over

the years. I tried to make the point in my post that pattern

diagnosis was of utmost importance. And that in the cases I was

referring to, blood stasis was justified not by the mere presence of

fibroids, but by signs and symptoms. So while I have no doubt that

you are correct about the occurrence of fibroids without blood stasis,

the vast majority of cases I have seen do involve such a pattern. If

anyone took my post to mean that one should treat fibroids always as

blood stasis or phlegm, that was not my intention. However, in the

event that your patient presents with liver spleen disharmony and

blood stasis, my only point was that I have found xue fu zhu yu tang a

useful base formula. If you cannot justify blood stasis, then I

certainly do not advise treating fibroids as such.

 

[Guest guest]

The palpable uterine fibroids which present with signs of blood

stasis can really start bleeding during periods depending on how they

are treated with blood movers. I once thought, in my ignorance, that

the profuse material with clots that exited during menstruation might

mean that the fibroid was dissolving. (How else does it go away-does

the body just re-absorb it?)I more recently learned that those are

fibroids in the endometrium itself, as opposed to the intramural (in

the muscle wall) fibroids. The bright red blood with clots indicates

the fibroid is disrupting the small arteries that feed the

endometrium.

 

So while blood movers may be appropriate depending on presentation,

it's good to back them off right before the period (2 to 3 days). San

Qi and Yunnan Bai You are used during the period in some cases,

(heavy bleeding, but with sharp stabbing cramps and signs of

stagnation)as they both unblock stasis and stop bleeding. In my

limited experience, I've been pleased incorporating those herbs

during menstruation.

 

 

Whatever else is going on, the branch often

> involves blood stasis and or phlegm stagnation. The root usually

> involves the liver and spleen to varying degrees. I find xue fu zhu

> yu tang to be a good base formula in cases where liver depression

and

> blood stasis predominate. However, it needs to be modified to

address

> the spleen and perhaps phlegm. NOTE: this is not a generic

> recommendation for fibroids, only if the presentation is as I have

> described. If there is cold or yang xu, then shao fu zhu yu tang

may

> be a better base. Other people work around gui zhi fu ling wan as

the

> branch rx. But it always comes down to pattern dx. However, I

would

> say that most of my cases are liver/spleen plus blood stasis. And

> this can be confirmed with s/s.

[Guest guest]

So while blood movers may be appropriate depending on presentation, it's good to back them off right before the period (2 to 3 days). San Qi and Yunnan Bai You

>>>>Wu ling zhi pu huang are a nice combo for this

Alon

[Guest guest]

Ariel,

You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion,

usually have underlying vacuity conditions. Much of the time,

however, it is accumulation of cold evil in the lower burner, not qi

vacuity, that is the issue, and warm medicinals such as rou gui, wu

zhu yu and fu zi are required to treat them. As you point out, qi

supplementing medicinals may aggravate the condition unless clear qi

vacuity signs exist. Another pattern to consider with fibroids is

disharmony of the chong and ren, which uses a he fa/harmonization

method.

 

Look at prescriptions such as wen jing tang and shao fu zhu yu

tang that are often used in patients with fibroids. They have lots of

warming medicinals in them.. . .

 

 

On Jun 11, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

 

>

>

> I was taught that fibroids are excess conditions. I find in my

> practice, however, that fibroids are usually excess conditions with an

> underlying deficiency. In cases where the fibroid is primarily

> dampness, I find a good deal of spleen qi deficiency. I cases where

> there is blood stagnation, there is usually some combination of

> speen qi

> def/ liver blood def. In cases where there is qi stagnation, I find

> there is often liver blood and/ or yin deficiency.

>

> Even in mixed cases, I hesitate to add tonic herbs to formulas like

> Gui

> Zhi Fu Ling Tang for fear of creating more stagnation. I am concerned,

> however, that without addressing the underlying deficiencies, herbal

> treatment will actually create larger problems in the long run.

>

> I am wondering what other people's experiences with mixed def/ excess

> fibroids have been. Has anyone used more balanced moving/ nourishing

> formulas with success?

>

> Thanks!

> Ariel

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It could be a chicken and egg kind of problem. On the one hand, its possible

aetiologically for Spleen Qi and Liver Blood Def to lead to blood stasis in the

uterus - but on the other hand, if a woman has had uterine fibroids for a long

time and this blood stasis has lead to heavy and prolonged menstrual bleeding

for many years, its entirely possible that the Spleen Qi Def and Liver Blood Def

you are observing is a secondary effect of the ongoing tremendous loss of Blood

over many years. So it can get difficult to tease that what has led to what out

of the situation.

 

 

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Ariel,

> You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion,

> usually have underlying vacuity conditions. Much of the time,

> however, it is accumulation of cold evil in the lower burner, not qi

> vacuity, that is the issue, and warm medicinals such as rou gui, wu

> zhu yu and fu zi are required to treat them. As you point out, qi

> supplementing medicinals may aggravate the condition unless clear qi

> vacuity signs exist. Another pattern to consider with fibroids is

> disharmony of the chong and ren, which uses a he fa/harmonization

> method.

>

> Look at prescriptions such as wen jing tang and shao fu zhu yu

> tang that are often used in patients with fibroids. They have lots of

> warming medicinals in them.. . .

>

>

> On Jun 11, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > I was taught that fibroids are excess conditions. I find in my

> > practice, however, that fibroids are usually excess conditions with an

> > underlying deficiency. In cases where the fibroid is primarily

> > dampness, I find a good deal of spleen qi deficiency. I cases where

> > there is blood stagnation, there is usually some combination of

> > speen qi

> > def/ liver blood def. In cases where there is qi stagnation, I find

> > there is often liver blood and/ or yin deficiency.

> >

> > Even in mixed cases, I hesitate to add tonic herbs to formulas like

> > Gui

> > Zhi Fu Ling Tang for fear of creating more stagnation. I am concerned,

> > however, that without addressing the underlying deficiencies, herbal

> > treatment will actually create larger problems in the long run.

> >

> > I am wondering what other people's experiences with mixed def/ excess

> > fibroids have been. Has anyone used more balanced moving/ nourishing

> > formulas with success?

> >

> > Thanks!

> > Ariel

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine ,

<zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Ariel,

> You are absolutely correct. Fibroids, while a local repletion,

> usually have underlying vacuity conditions.

 

Z'ev is absolutely right with his observations here. There are some good

articles on uterine fibroids on the Blue Poppy blog, at:

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/09/uterine-myomas-ebm-aamp\

-chinese-medicine

 

and

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/10/uterine-fibroids-and-tc\

m

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Anyone know what to do to eliminate fiboids? A friend is facing uterus removal

if there is no solution. thanks in advance

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

I am so glad that to be on this board today as I rarely get a chance to, so I

can answer your post. Dr. Ronald Hoffman (on Health Talk radio show 570 am) was

talking about EGCG green tea extract as a treatment for uterine fibroids. I

found this article for you.

 

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=112724

 

My prayers for your friend.

 

Thanks

 

, Michael Forrest <a57ngel

wrote:

>

> Anyone know what to do to eliminate fiboids? A friend is facing uterus removal

if there is no solution. thanks in advance

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In Jin Shin Jyutsu, there is an 'application' that is of particular help with

this project. If you are not familiar with Jin Shin Jyutsu, you could get help

from doing this combination:

 

the main central, which you find here :

http://jsjinc.net/pagedetails.php?id=maincentral-flow

 

AND

holding index and little finger, one at a time, one hand at a time.

(if someone else holds, he can meanwhile hold the first thoracic (lower neck)

with the other hand).

 

I have heard cases that completely solved the case. Focus on the position step

3 : sternum (hold longer than the other steps)

 

___________________________

 

Another good hold for uterus is sandwiching the ankles (one hand on outer ankle,

one on the inner).

 

When you apply on yourself, there is no time limit. When friends treat, then no

longer than one hour, and leave 8 hours between treatments. Don't press, just

hold.

 

Hope this might help.