Dear List,

As per discussion on East West astrology,
Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
and clear.

I do not consider western astrology an astrology
no longer.

It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study
of personality traits and psychological make-up
according to the time of the year they are born.

I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly.

Astrology means connection with stars and
constellations.

Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
the stars and constellations any more?

No!

It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
has nothing to do with the stars.

Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call
them something like March, April so on or some other name.

It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided
from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case.

Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve.

When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries?

No, it is in Pisces.

So then why should they call it Aries?

And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in
are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees
by 30 degrees).

And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged
against.

What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed
the back drop in a play?
The whole play will be skrewed up.

It may have bearings on the person's temperment
such as if the person is born in spring time he/she
is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and
so on, but that's about the size of it.

If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should
they call it astrology?

It may be something else but not astrology.

Hari Om
Haridas

Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate
expression of them.

The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star.
The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through
aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but
it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine.
It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like
to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western
astrology as an astrology

FYI
Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:

The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies
interpreted as an influence on human affairs.

c

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gee Sunn" <siva1008@...>
To: "GJ" <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


> Dear List,
>
> As per discussion on East West astrology,
> Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
> and clear.
>
> I do not consider western astrology an astrology
> no longer.
>
> It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study
> of personality traits and psychological make-up
> according to the time of the year they are born.
>
> I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly.
>
> Astrology means connection with stars and
> constellations.
>
> Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
> the stars and constellations any more?
>
> No!
>
> It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
> has nothing to do with the stars.
>
> Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call
> them something like March, April so on or some other name.
>
> It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided
> from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case.
>
> Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve.
>
> When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries?
>
> No, it is in Pisces.
>
> So then why should they call it Aries?
>
> And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in
> are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees
> by 30 degrees).
>
> And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged
> against.
>
> What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed
> the back drop in a play?
> The whole play will be skrewed up.
>
> It may have bearings on the person's temperment
> such as if the person is born in spring time he/she
> is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and
> so on, but that's about the size of it.
>
> If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should
> they call it astrology?
>
> It may be something else but not astrology.
>
> Hari Om
> Haridas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> http://www.goravani.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Dear Cynthia,
Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western Astrology.
What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets without signs, or the
lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to Ayanasha.
In India some Astrologer practice Red Book Astrology.
In this signs are not used.
A planet in ascendant will be considered like in Aries.
With the inter relationship of planets one can also predict.
This is why western is still working with the lost relationship of the
zodiac.
A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of Vedic will give lot of
capabilities in Astrology.
But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not describe personality, in fact
with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of individual to a very
great depth which western lack.
regards,
Inder Jit Sahni
House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town,
Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hanskpvedic

----- Original Message -----
From: "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@...>
To: <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


> Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate
> expression of them.
>
> The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star.
> The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships
through
> aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but
> it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to
examine.
> It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I
like
> to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western
> astrology as an astrology
>
> FYI
> Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:
>
> The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial
bodies
> interpreted as an influence on human affairs.
>
> c
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gee Sunn" <siva1008@...>
> To: "GJ" <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM
> Subject: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology
>
>
> > Dear List,
> >
> > As per discussion on East West astrology,
> > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
> > and clear.
> >
> > I do not consider western astrology an astrology
> > no longer.
> >
> > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study
> > of personality traits and psychological make-up
> > according to the time of the year they are born.
> >
> > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly.
> >
> > Astrology means connection with stars and
> > constellations.
> >
> > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
> > the stars and constellations any more?
> >
> > No!
> >
> > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
> > has nothing to do with the stars.
> >
> > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call
> > them something like March, April so on or some other name.
> >
> > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided
> > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case.
> >
> > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve.
> >
> > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries?
> >
> > No, it is in Pisces.
> >
> > So then why should they call it Aries?
> >
> > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in
> > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees
> > by 30 degrees).
> >
> > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged
> > against.
> >
> > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed
> > the back drop in a play?
> > The whole play will be skrewed up.
> >
> > It may have bearings on the person's temperment
> > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she
> > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and
> > so on, but that's about the size of it.
> >
> > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should
> > they call it astrology?
> >
> > It may be something else but not astrology.
> >
> > Hari Om
> > Haridas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > http://www.goravani.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> http://www.goravani.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi All,
I am also not as esteemed as all of you are. Thought I'd just jump
in, though. I think interpretation of psychological characteristics has
been enhanced by Western Psychology, using the archetypes of Greek
mythology and how they relate to psychic forces that interact and
compel/impel human beings. They use images to explain things that words
are inadequate in doing. That doesn't mean that they are without merit
because they do not reflect life on the normal waking plane.
In other words, just because a painter does not paint an image that
looks like a photograph, does not mean the painter is wrong in what he
sees, or his painting is incorrect. It is a perception of reality, that
will or will not resonate with the viewer.
Some people have really been helped by the relationship of planets
explained to them whether or not the planets were in the correct sign or
not. A Mars aspecting negatively your Moon, means something no matter what.
The pantheon of Vedic gods have their own subtle and powerful
images, as well. I love how Das explains things, using Mars as a
general, etc. Still Mars, and Mangala DO have the same warlike
attributes, and Venus in both do mean luxury, beauty of things, etc.
A willingness to see the merits of both systems should be a virtue.
Not an agreement, just a willingness to see the others' standpoint and
see why it continues to flourish because of a need it fulfills.
By the way, there have been astrologers (western) who have made
correct, public predictions. There was even a trial of an astrologer in
the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of
someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by
drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her
the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a
drowning accident.
Thanks,
chrys333

> --- In gjlist@y..., "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@w...>
>
> The solstices and equinoxes are using the
> luminaries:


Understanding of making panchaangam, working out
adhika/laya maasa, place of yugaadi,
manvaadi(manvatara starting point), etc., all of which
are based on Sun AND moon positions in the sky with
respect to the nakSatra divisions. For example,
paurNami location also fixes Sun's location wrt
nakSatra-s.

> the Sun is a star. The Earth is a planet.

"planet" is not translation for the word "graha". Does
any Vedic text have a word that speficically means
"planet", i.e., that goes around Sun or any star? Any
specific word for "moon", i.e., that goes around any
planet?

An extended outlook on the above para can be had from
the following:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vedic-.../message/16494


VR


> Western astrology looks at
> the relationships
> through
> aspects of the relative positions. It may not be
> the sidereal
> zodiac, but
> it is still an effective tool which you may choose
> to disdain or to
> examine.
> It really depends upon which type of astrology you
> wish to practice.
> I like
> to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary
> would include
> western
> astrology as an astrology
>
> FYI
> Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:
>
> The study of the movements and the "relative"
> positions of celestial
> bodies
> interpreted as an influence on human affairs.
>
> c



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a source for this
case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for practitioners to
cite to.
Sarva Mangalam,
JIA
In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrys333 (AT) attbi (DOT) com writes:
There was even a trial of an astrologer in the United States in the 1920's or
1930's who was given a chart of someone and asked to make a prediction. She
said the person was dead by drowning and would have no future. She was correct.
The judge gave her the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just
died in a drowning accident.

Re to Gee's points.

I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't
think that way.

The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
external natural earth based life. The stars are not
present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.

They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to
the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such
thing. They are, Gods, to pagans.

Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may
be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some
way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was
said by another:

The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly
patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly
"aster-ology".

The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination.....



Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the
relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way
the waves hit the earth. I do.



Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing.



--


Das Goravani , President
Dancing Moon, Inc.
2852 Willamette St, #353
Eugene, Oregon, 97405
USA

Voice:
800-532-6528
or 541-485-8453
Fax: 541-343-0344
mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>

http://www.goravani.com
Home of "Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic Astrology Software , and more...

Evangaline Waters?
Darn, will look up the case and give you details.
Thanks,
chrys333

Hi Roik,

How are you?

I did not say the equinoxes do not matter.
They do matter but it's a different matter.

But 'Stars are not there, they are far away' ???????????

Excuse me, but you've got me lost.

Stars do not matter?

What do you mean by stars are not there?

You gotta be joking.

How about Nakshatras?

Jyotish is supposed be more of a cosmic astrology dealing
with subtle energy vibrations emanating from
stars(signs, constellations), the deep recesses of
comic mind, not just being confined to our tiny solar system.

At least that's how i understand it.

You are right about that divination part though.

Hope you are doing OK.

Hari Om
Hari Das

----------
>From: Das Goravani <das@...>
>To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology
>Date: Sun, Sep 8, 2002, 4:34 PM
>

>
>
> Re to Gee's points.
>
> I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't
> think that way.
>
> The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
> external natural earth based life. The stars are not
> present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
> friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.
>
> They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to
> the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such
> thing. They are, Gods, to pagans.
>
> Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may
> be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some
> way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was
> said by another:
>
> The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly
> patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly
> "aster-ology".
>
> The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination.....
>
>
>
> Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the
> relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way
> the waves hit the earth. I do.
>
>
>
> Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Das Goravani , President
> Dancing Moon, Inc.
> 2852 Willamette St, #353
> Eugene, Oregon, 97405
> USA
>
> Voice:
> 800-532-6528
> or 541-485-8453
> Fax: 541-343-0344
> mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>
>
> http://www.goravani.com
> Home of "Goravani Jyotish"
>
> Vedic Astrology Software , and more...
>
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> http://www.goravani.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

excuse me
does indian astrolgy needs definition & recognition
from oxford?
"ignorance is bliss"
i agree with u inder.
indians can tell characterstics more accurately. i've
noticed that we may not b that good at filling pages
like linda goodman.
those who think the other way can take a test
prashant
--- Inder Jit Sahni <isawhney@...> wrote:
> Dear Cynthia,
> Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western
> Astrology.
> What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets
> without signs, or the
> lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to
> Ayanasha.
> In India some Astrologer practice Red Book
> Astrology.
> In this signs are not used.
> A planet in ascendant will be considered like in
> Aries.
> With the inter relationship of planets one can also
> predict.
> This is why western is still working with the lost
> relationship of the
> zodiac.
> A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of
> Vedic will give lot of
> capabilities in Astrology.
> But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not
> describe personality, in fact
> with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of
> individual to a very
> great depth which western lack.
> regards,
> Inder Jit Sahni
> House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town,
> Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hanskpvedic
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@...>
> To: <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology
>
>
> > Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and
> respect your passionate
> > expression of them.
> >
> > The solstices and equinoxes are using the
> luminaries: the Sun is a star.
> > The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at
> the relationships
> through
> > aspects of the relative positions. It may not be
> the sidereal zodiac, but
> > it is still an effective tool which you may choose
> to disdain or to
> examine.
> > It really depends upon which type of astrology you
> wish to practice. I
> like
> > to use both. It would appear the Oxford
> Dictionary would include western
> > astrology as an astrology
> >
> > FYI
> > Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:
> >
> > The study of the movements and the "relative"
> positions of celestial
> bodies
> > interpreted as an influence on human affairs.
> >
> > c
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Gee Sunn" <siva1008@...>
> > To: "GJ" <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM
> > Subject: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology
> >
> >
> > > Dear List,
> > >
> > > As per discussion on East West astrology,
> > > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
> > > and clear.
> > >
> > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology
> > > no longer.
> > >
> > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a
> study
> > > of personality traits and psychological make-up
> > > according to the time of the year they are born.
> > >
> > > I am not being biased and am stating facts
> plainly.
> > >
> > > Astrology means connection with stars and
> > > constellations.
> > >
> > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
> > > the stars and constellations any more?
> > >
> > > No!
> > >
> > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
> > > has nothing to do with the stars.
> > >
> > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they
> should call
> > > them something like March, April so on or some
> other name.
> > >
> > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa
> coincided
> > > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is
> the case.
> > >
> > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year
> by twelve.
> > >
> > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in
> Aries?
> > >
> > > No, it is in Pisces.
> > >
> > > So then why should they call it Aries?
> > >
> > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets
> are in
> > > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24
> degrees
> > > by 30 degrees).
> > >
> > > And the sign are the background of the planets
> are lodged
> > > against.
> > >
> > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly
> changed
> > > the back drop in a play?
> > > The whole play will be skrewed up.
> > >
> > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment
> > > such as if the person is born in spring time
> he/she
> > > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative
> and
> > > so on, but that's about the size of it.
> > >
> > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why
> should
> > > they call it astrology?
> > >
> > > It may be something else but not astrology.
> > >
> > > Hari Om
> > > Haridas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om
> Tat Sat
> > > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > > http://www.goravani.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat
> Sat
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > http://www.goravani.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat
> Sat
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

I wrote:

The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
external natural earth based life. The stars are not
present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.



I meant:

The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox,
etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal
with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc.

Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are
very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a
Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun,
and we are so close to it, so very close.

Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't
notice.



As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well.

I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on
bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by
some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay,
wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top,
tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from
India, with my own native culture.

I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects,
over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid
fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was
in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving,
Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with
India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's,
incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason.
Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to everyone.

If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural
issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My
realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change.
I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer
Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology,
so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now,
I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced.
No more Hindu fanatic.

Peace
--


Das Goravani , President
Dancing Moon, Inc.
2852 Willamette St, #353
Eugene, Oregon, 97405
USA

Voice:
800-532-6528
or 541-485-8453
Fax: 541-343-0344
mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>

http://www.goravani.com
Home of "Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic Astrology Software , and more...

I cannot wholesale condemn Western astrology. I view it as an incomplete
system, ravaged by the Dark Ages, and the contempt of materialistic
society. We may never know what Western astrology was.

I do know that sidereal placements work very well, the whole Vedic system
works more simply and directly.

I do not question the importance of the Sun and the seasons, but I do
question the assumption that the seasons are de facto a basis for a
(hypothetical) zodiacal astrological system. The stars seem to me to be a
cosmic indicator of karmic energy patterns going very deeply. A seasonal
based astrology seems to me to "surface" oriented.

Good to hear that Das has rejoined the land of the semi-sane. Ha, ha he's
going Celtic now; him and I have that same blood flowing through our
veins. No one can second-guess black-haired, white-skinned, wayward
males....except each other

I think he knows that he's got at least Jyotish Studio 3 coming out of him
yet....

Curtis


At 08:54 PM 9/8/02 -0700, you wrote:



>I wrote:
>
>The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
>external natural earth based life. The stars are not
>present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
>friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.
>
>
>
>I meant:
>
>The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox,
>etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal
>with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc.
>
>Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are
>very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a
>Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun,
>and we are so close to it, so very close.
>
>Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't
>notice.
>
>
>
>As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well.
>
>I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on
>bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by
>some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay,
>wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top,
>tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from
>India, with my own native culture.
>
>I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects,
>over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid
>fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was
>in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving,
>Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with
>India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's,
>incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason.
>Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to everyone.
>
>If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural
>issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My
>realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change.
>I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer
>Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology,
>so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now,
>I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced.
>No more Hindu fanatic.
>
>Peace
>--
>
>
>Das Goravani , President
>Dancing Moon, Inc.
>2852 Willamette St, #353
>Eugene, Oregon, 97405
>USA
>
>Voice:
>800-532-6528
>or 541-485-8453
>Fax: 541-343-0344
>mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>
>
>http://www.goravani.com
>Home of "Goravani Jyotish"
>
>Vedic Astrology Software , and more...
>
>
>
>
>
>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
>To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
>http://www.goravani.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Thank you Cynthia. I was afraid I was "fighting" this one all by myself...

hehehe

Best Regards,
Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: cynthia novak [mailto:c.a.novak@...]
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 11:04 PM
To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate
expression of them.

The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star.
The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through
aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but
it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine.
It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like
to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western
astrology as an astrology

FYI
Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:

The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies
interpreted as an influence on human affairs.

c

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gee Sunn" <siva1008@...>
To: "GJ" <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM
Subject: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


> Dear List,
>
> As per discussion on East West astrology,
> Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
> and clear.
>
> I do not consider western astrology an astrology
> no longer.
>
> It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study
> of personality traits and psychological make-up
> according to the time of the year they are born.
>
> I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly.
>
> Astrology means connection with stars and
> constellations.
>
> Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
> the stars and constellations any more?
>
> No!
>
> It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
> has nothing to do with the stars.
>
> Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call
> them something like March, April so on or some other name.
>
> It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided
> from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case.
>
> Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve.
>
> When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries?
>
> No, it is in Pisces.
>
> So then why should they call it Aries?
>
> And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in
> are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees
> by 30 degrees).
>
> And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged
> against.
>
> What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed
> the back drop in a play?
> The whole play will be skrewed up.
>
> It may have bearings on the person's temperment
> such as if the person is born in spring time he/she
> is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and
> so on, but that's about the size of it.
>
> If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should
> they call it astrology?
>
> It may be something else but not astrology.
>
> Hari Om
> Haridas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> http://www.goravani.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
http://www.goravani.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Inder,

Again, thank you. My experience in Vedic astrology is, admittedly,
somewhat more limited as opposed to Western astrology. But I have
found that while it is possible to deduce personality traits using
Vedic, it is a great deal easier with Western.

Best regards,
Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Inder Jit Sahni [mailto:isawhney@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:10 AM
To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


Dear Cynthia,
Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western Astrology.
What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets without signs, or the
lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to Ayanasha.
In India some Astrologer practice Red Book Astrology.
In this signs are not used.
A planet in ascendant will be considered like in Aries.
With the inter relationship of planets one can also predict.
This is why western is still working with the lost relationship of the
zodiac.
A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of Vedic will give lot of
capabilities in Astrology.
But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not describe personality, in fact
with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of individual to a very
great depth which western lack.
regards,
Inder Jit Sahni
House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town,
Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hanskpvedic

----- Original Message -----
From: "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@...>
To: <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


> Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate
> expression of them.
>
> The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star.
> The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships
through
> aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but
> it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to
examine.
> It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I
like
> to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western
> astrology as an astrology
>
> FYI
> Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary:
>
> The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial
bodies
> interpreted as an influence on human affairs.
>
> c
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gee Sunn" <siva1008@...>
> To: "GJ" <gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM
> Subject: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology
>
>
> > Dear List,
> >
> > As per discussion on East West astrology,
> > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest
> > and clear.
> >
> > I do not consider western astrology an astrology
> > no longer.
> >
> > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study
> > of personality traits and psychological make-up
> > according to the time of the year they are born.
> >
> > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly.
> >
> > Astrology means connection with stars and
> > constellations.
> >
> > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with
> > the stars and constellations any more?
> >
> > No!
> >
> > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but
> > has nothing to do with the stars.
> >
> > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call
> > them something like March, April so on or some other name.
> >
> > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided
> > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case.
> >
> > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve.
> >
> > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries?
> >
> > No, it is in Pisces.
> >
> > So then why should they call it Aries?
> >
> > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in
> > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees
> > by 30 degrees).
> >
> > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged
> > against.
> >
> > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed
> > the back drop in a play?
> > The whole play will be skrewed up.
> >
> > It may have bearings on the person's temperment
> > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she
> > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and
> > so on, but that's about the size of it.
> >
> > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should
> > they call it astrology?
> >
> > It may be something else but not astrology.
> >
> > Hari Om
> > Haridas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> > http://www.goravani.com
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
> To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
> http://www.goravani.com
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>




Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
http://www.goravani.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

THANK YOU!!!!


-----Original Message-----
From: Das Goravani [mailto:das@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:34 PM
To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology




Re to Gee's points.

I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't
think that way.

The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
external natural earth based life. The stars are not
present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.

They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to
the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such
thing. They are, Gods, to pagans.

Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may
be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some
way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was
said by another:

The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly
patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly
"aster-ology".

The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination.....



Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the
relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way
the waves hit the earth. I do.



Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing.



--


Das Goravani , President
Dancing Moon, Inc.
2852 Willamette St, #353
Eugene, Oregon, 97405
USA

Voice:
800-532-6528
or 541-485-8453
Fax: 541-343-0344
mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>

http://www.goravani.com
Home of "Goravani Jyotish"

Vedic Astrology Software , and more...





Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
http://www.goravani.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

It is simple...too simple really...

The seasons reflect the "breathing" (the rhythm) of the energies
you speak of - the rhythm of the universe. I should say ONE of the
rhythms, as there are as many rhythms constantly going - it is the
"universal orchestra", constantly playing.

I see it like this, Astrologers are like audience members, listening
to different parts of the orchestra. Your thought, Curtis, that the
"seasonal" based astrology seems surface oriented goes to what I have
been saying. To ignore one part in favor of another might be compared
to say leaving out the French horns. They don't say a whole lot in and
of themselves. But leave them out, and the music seems less flavorful.

Best regards,
Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Curtis Burns [mailto:curtisburns@...]
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 5:38 AM
To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology


I cannot wholesale condemn Western astrology. I view it as an incomplete
system, ravaged by the Dark Ages, and the contempt of materialistic
society. We may never know what Western astrology was.

I do know that sidereal placements work very well, the whole Vedic system
works more simply and directly.

I do not question the importance of the Sun and the seasons, but I do
question the assumption that the seasons are de facto a basis for a
(hypothetical) zodiacal astrological system. The stars seem to me to be a
cosmic indicator of karmic energy patterns going very deeply. A seasonal
based astrology seems to me to "surface" oriented.

Good to hear that Das has rejoined the land of the semi-sane. Ha, ha he's
going Celtic now; him and I have that same blood flowing through our
veins. No one can second-guess black-haired, white-skinned, wayward
males....except each other

I think he knows that he's got at least Jyotish Studio 3 coming out of him
yet....

Curtis


At 08:54 PM 9/8/02 -0700, you wrote:



>I wrote:
>
>The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our
>external natural earth based life. The stars are not
>present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal
>friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real.
>
>
>
>I meant:
>
>The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox,
>etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal
>with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc.
>
>Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are
>very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a
>Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun,
>and we are so close to it, so very close.
>
>Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't
>notice.
>
>
>
>As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well.
>
>I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on
>bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by
>some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay,
>wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top,
>tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from
>India, with my own native culture.
>
>I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects,
>over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid
>fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was
>in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving,
>Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with
>India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's,
>incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason.
>Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to
everyone.
>
>If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural
>issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My
>realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change.
>I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer
>Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology,
>so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now,
>I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced.
>No more Hindu fanatic.
>
>Peace
>--
>
>
>Das Goravani , President
>Dancing Moon, Inc.
>2852 Willamette St, #353
>Eugene, Oregon, 97405
>USA
>
>Voice:
>800-532-6528
>or 541-485-8453
>Fax: 541-343-0344
>mailto:das@... <mailto:das@...>
>
>http://www.goravani.com
>Home of "Goravani Jyotish"
>
>Vedic Astrology Software , and more...
>
>
>
>
>
>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
>To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
>http://www.goravani.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
To unsubscribe, send an email to: gjlist-unsubscribe (AT) egroups (DOT) com
http://www.goravani.com


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Dear Akk
I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting
my Mercury <great grins>

The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure
your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it
was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City.

Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged
with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed
with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and
her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL.

In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to
pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story.

cynthia





- In gjlist@y..., Jiabbot@c... wrote:
> Dear chrys333,
>
> Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a
source for
> this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for
> practitioners to cite to.
>
> Sarva Mangalam,
>
> JIA
>
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> chrys333@a... writes:
>
>
> > There was even a trial of an astrologer in
> > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart
of
> > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was
dead by
> > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge
gave her
> > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died
in a
> > drowning accident.
> >

--
Dear Akk
I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting
my Mercury <great grins>

The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure
your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it
was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City.

Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged
with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed
with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and
her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL.

In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to
pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story.

cynthia





- In gjlist@y..., Jiabbot@c... wrote:
> Dear chrys333,
>
> Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a
source for
> this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for
> practitioners to cite to.
>
> Sarva Mangalam,
>
> JIA
>
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> chrys333@a... writes:
>
>
> > There was even a trial of an astrologer in
> > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart
of
> > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was
dead by
> > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge
gave her
> > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died
in a
> > drowning accident.
> >

Absolutely fascinating - I had heard of her in another context
when I was younger. But I had no idea of her influence. I
guess (hope) this will silence those who slam Western astrology
as false. If not, then it is their loss for ignoring a different
but no less valid field of study.

Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: cynthianovak2002 [mailto:cynthianovak@...]
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:46 PM
To: gjlist (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: [GJ] Re: Jyotish v. Western astrology


--
Dear Akk
I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting
my Mercury <great grins>

The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure
your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it
was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City.

Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged
with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed
with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and
her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL.

In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to
pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story.

cynthia





- In gjlist@y..., Jiabbot@c... wrote:
> Dear chrys333,
>
> Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a
source for
> this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for
> practitioners to cite to.
>
> Sarva Mangalam,
>
> JIA
>
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> chrys333@a... writes:
>
>
> > There was even a trial of an astrologer in
> > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart
of
> > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was
dead by
> > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge
gave her
> > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died
in a
> > drowning accident.
> >




Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat
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