Reg. Gayathri Mantram and ISKCON

01-08-2006, 12:47 PM

initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if
it is western influence, or implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on
this regard. 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from
western-born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating all
their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi Chandanam
which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse, I know of so-called
SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN during socio-religious occasions but
immediately revert to the Gopi-Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable
condition of our sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young
unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated" in ISKCON,
thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi
about the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism so much, why should they
initiate disciples from SV, instead of just asking them to just follow the
Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was, disciples even from Srivaishnava families
unconditionally surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he
initiates them only then. I couldn't doubt Him. 3) Granted, there are many
positively influential points in ISKCON that we learn from - food-style,
commitment, etc. Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and
old alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices orthogonal
to ours. Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.

01-10-2006, 06:08 AM

and the Gopi goes, before thiruman during the times of ram and Krsna they wore
only sandal on their heads. This was taught to me by one SESHADRI swami during
my pratmic class. 4. Yes we have to save our culture as it explains the
travails of the sould from the Jada jivan to this level. This way of living and
culture needs to be preserved by explaining the significance of each of our
rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam sustain. PLS DO CORRECT IF I
AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY. DASAN/raghavanvimalkumar ranganathan
wrote: SrI: Dear Sri Mohan Swamin,
Whilst your points are indeed effective, I would like to ramble
a couple of my thoughts, as somebody who had been deeply attached to ISKCON in
the past: 1) When it is accepted that becoming a Vaishnava is paramount and
not the varna-affiliation, I am not able to reconcile with the fact that ISKCON
gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry (including Women!!!) which has no
prior vedic pramanas, even in our Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with
the varna system, granted they made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava
is more important. Brahmana initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri
in ISKCON - I don't know if it is western influence, or implicitly vEdic. I
would love to be corrected on this regard. 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars"
take "initiation" from western-born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus
symbolically relegating all their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham,
sporting the Gopi Chandanam which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam.
Worse, I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN during
socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to the Gopi-Chandanam at home
- which reflects the pitiable condition of our sampradayam. Also, I can't
understand the logic beyond young unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava
families being "initiated" in ISKCON, thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I
once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi about the same - if they respect
Srivaishnavism so much, why should they initiate disciples from SV, instead of
just asking them to just follow the Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was,
disciples even from Srivaishnava families unconditionally
surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he initiates them only
then. I couldn't doubt Him. 3) Granted, there are many positively
influential points in ISKCON that we learn from - food-style, commitment, etc.
Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and old alike to a
different sampradayam with philosophies and practices orthogonal to ours.
Dasan, Kidambi Soundararajan.
Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.

01-10-2006, 12:12 PM

Dear members,

I would like to clear up a couple of points that I made in my
original mail on this subject, and to clarify my intention for
posting it.

My purpose was to highlight the differences in approach of the
two sampradaayams in giving gaayatri initiation - prompted by Sriman
Pritesh's insight that gaayatri initiation is only given through 'a
bona fide guru'. I was not trying to read in any Vaishnava
significance to the Gaayatri mantra, merely pointing out the
different approach that two different Vaishnava sampradaayas have on
it (we could have replaced 'Shaiva' or 'Smaarta' with 'Vaishnava'
there).

As a side comment, I noted that those who are given gaayatri
initiation in the Gaudiya tradition seem to treat it a lot more
seriously than many of our own 'birth brahmins'/'Iyengars'.

In relation to this I noticed there were a number of points
made about the Gaudiya sampradaaya's use of Gaayatri:

'I am not sure how or why the Gayatri mantra found its way into
ISKCON' - Sriman Mohan Sagar,

'ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry' - Sriman
Kidambi Soundararajan,

'I dont think they make evrybody brahmins...Only difference is
the initiation of women which is purely a retrogade step and they
will learn by themselves' - Sriman Vijaya Raghavan

Regarding all these, I understand (and share) the deep
attachment we all will have to Sri Sampradaayam. But some of the
above statements could be taken as being unfairly harsh to the
Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaayam. Granted, I have often found myself
disagreeing with some of Gaudiya sampradaayam's views but I have
come to respect their stance on these issues. Let me explain why:

Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the gaayatri
mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see
themselves as a fully Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has closely
observed an ISKCON worship service will notice that their poojaris
(often non-Indians, who have been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite
vedic mantras during worship including Purusha suukta, Vishnu suukta
and others, and if you ask them about their practice you will find
that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam. This isn't
just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail a
couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in the
UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu
families.

Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that they
don't subscribe to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in Sri
sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth
brahmins. Your observation that the chanting of Vedas is restricted
by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas,
but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the
Gaudiyas on this. They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam
stating that 'individuals displaying the required characterists are
eligible for gaayatri'. Any further discussion of this would
probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which
has happened too many times on other lists. My point is that
recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and sampradaayic
position in ISCKON which we should respect.

Sriman Kidambi Soundararajan, you lament that they give gaayatri
initiation to 'all-and-sundry'. I can tell you that the gentleman I
mentioned above is probably more strict than any brahmin in my
family. He does three times daily gaayatri, doesn't eat non-
saattvik food, gets up at Brahma muhuurtam - what percentage
of 'birth brahmins' do all of that nowadays? And what's more they
are tested severely before being accepted for gaayatri initiation,
and it is only a small fraction of people who are actually given
yagnyopaveetam, not all devotees as you may have thought. They are
definitely not indiscriminate.

I think we should be more worried about the fact that a huge
percentage of the birth brahmins given 'pooNal' these days just do
it as a social function, with no intention of ever performing
sandhyaavandanam or chanting gaayatri. We surely all know people
who fall into this category - I myself was one once upon a time.
Which is greater apachaaram to the Holy Vedas - teaching it to
people who might be 'forbidden' but have the enthusiasm to learn it -
or teaching it to people, who are 'allowed' to learn it but have
no real interest in respecting it? It's a tough question I agree.

It is also a two-edged sword, if we accept our birth status, we
have to also acknowledge that we can fall from it, according to
dharmashaastras. The learned members will know that so many of us
will not even qualify for being brahmins any more, despite our
birth, due to some transgression of some dharmashaastra rule or
another (take a look at Manu Smriti!). Again, discussion of this
could descend into the old caste debate, but as far as it's relation
to the topic of gaayatri and ISCKON, my point is to note the
*colossal* respect they afford to gaayatri. Rest assured that those
in ISCKON who do receive gaayatri (whether men or women) do it after
a lot of serious thought, introspection and self-discipline -
probably much more than the vast majority of Iyengar/Iyer/Smaartha
boys these days. So please let us be less judgemental of their
sampradaayam which has its own philosophy, history and tradition -
regardless of whether we agree with them or not.

namO nArAyaNAya
aaNDaaL tiruvaDigaLE sharaNam

with praNaamams, apologies for any offences

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
Ranjan

01-10-2006, 10:40 PM

sri rama jayam
srimathe ramanujaya namaha

namaskaram to all.
i think this is my first mail in this forum after being a member for
more than 3 months.i have been following most of the discussion
sincerely and i hav also learned alot.

i thought of adding few words to this subject about ISKCON.its true
that there are many things going on which is against our sampradaya
and if we vaisnavites tend to correct,then we are labelled as cast
conscious etc etc.expecially in the place that im born and brought up
(malaysia)this beleive is almost in every corner of the country.im
proud that it is following bhagavatham and bhagavad gita in close
but certain things are very strange.i beleive probably its to suit
western vaishnavites but then i think certain things are causing
confusion and even i would say great dosham.

il give few examples from what i know besides what has been pin
pointed.firstly women cahnting gayatri japam has been dealt in
detail and we know the reason why it should not be said why
women.adiyen being a pattar brahmin,do not tell in spite of knowing
in and out of it but then some of my college friends are having
cassetes and cd's out of it and in western music pattern which is
composed by ISCKON(not sure which center). the gayatri mantra told
with english slang is jus unexplanabile...it sounds like a mixture
of many things loosing its originality.

beside this,girls or women with menses can take part in all pooja in
the temple.the explanation given are sometimes unbeleivable,(radha
with sri krishna is always with him in spite of she being women
having all hormone changes.some even have agrued with me that once
in isckon,all women are gopikas',so they will always be with god.
when we say part of explanation,we are claimed to be orthodox,etc
etc.

the concept in ISCkon is noble and need to be saluted but at the
smae time if these corrections are done it will be perfect for all
the followers.they should not confuse vaishnavism and brahminism.
brahmanan is by birth and by not by any initiation.one can argue
that lifestyle is also a parameter,agreed.taking into that in
consideration,i believe that is more suitable for any man who si
leading a vedic life.

what is the hunger into getting initiated being a brahmin when god
is not looking at any of these when it comes getting his blessings.
he accepts everyone. basically people should love themself,live and
improve lifestyle towards vedic life than trying to change identity.
this mails not meant to hurt any party but its jus to make few
comments and suggestion on how to be a perfect society.
may god bless all the noble work of all people towards sri vaishnavam

adiyen,
shamini gayatri krishnan

--- In ramanuja (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Vijaya Raghavan wrote:
>
> Swamin,
>
> These are some of thughts collected from different kalakshepams.
>
> 1. Iskon, initiates every one into vaishnavism, though a
different form. They do this as initiation to vaishnavism. I dont
think they make evrybody brahmins. Again though this we can say is a
western concept, is actually a process started by our own
emperumanar even.
>
> Only difference is the initiation of women which is purely a
retrogade step and they will learn by themselves.
>
> 2. Even bagwan says " Sarva dharman parityajya....." Swami
Desikan says "Anyatha saranam nasti ....." . As longas any sould
surrenders to him and him alone we have to welcome that. Mukur swami
use to tell 'My lord carries the padam of the beloved on his head".
This we have to celebrate the lord in them as he would like to
handle them solely and follow them.
>
> 3. As for as the Thiruman and the Gopi goes, before thiruman
during the times of ram and Krsna they wore only sandal on their
heads. This was taught to me by one SESHADRI swami during my pratmic
class.
>
> 4. Yes we have to save our culture as it explains the travails
of the sould from the Jada jivan to this level. This way of living
and culture needs to be preserved by explaining the significance of
each of our rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam sustain.
>
> PLS DO CORRECT IF I AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY.
>
> DASAN/raghavan
>
> vimalkumar ranganathan wrote:
>
> SrI:
> Dear Sri Mohan Swamin,
> Whilst your points are
indeed effective, I would like to ramble a couple of my thoughts, as
somebody who had been deeply attached to ISKCON in the past:
>
> 1) When it is accepted that becoming a Vaishnava is paramount
and not the varna-affiliation, I am not able to reconcile with the
fact that ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and sundry
(including Women!!!) which has no prior vedic pramanas, even in our
Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with the varna system,
granted they made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava is
more important. Brahmana initiation for ladies and ladies chanting
Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if it is western influence, or
implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on this regard.
>
> 2) Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from western-
born SwAmis and Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating
all their responsibilities to our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi
Chandanam which is different from Sri Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse,
I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport fantastic thirumaN
during socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to the Gopi-
Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable condition of our
sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young
unmarried males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated"
in ISKCON, thus accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very
nice ISKCON sannyasi about the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism
so much, why should they initiate disciples from SV, instead of just
asking them to just follow the Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was,
disciples even from Srivaishnava families unconditionally surrender
to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he initiates
> them only then. I couldn't doubt Him.
>
> 3) Granted, there are many positively influential points in
ISKCON that we learn from - food-style, commitment, etc.
Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen - young and old
alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices
orthogonal to ours.
>
> Dasan,
> Kidambi Soundararajan.
>
>
>
> Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam
> http://www.vedics.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> ramanuja-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in
your hands ASAP.
>

01-11-2006, 05:52 AM

what is the vEdic pramAna? - Is it consistent with the sAstrAs? 2) Their
allowing women to temples and even do deity worship during untoward days -
again, what is the history, what is the pramAnA? The philosophy that they
preach - being a brAhmAnA is not the goal, but becoming a vaishnava is.
Becoming a vaishnava supercedes the varna system, according to GV (even SV, for
that matter). Then why should they give brahmana initiation to everyone? Again,
I don't mean to be casteist here. Becoming a brahmana is not a caste-related
theory btw, atleast in the modern day. We have had excellent devotees in our
sampradaya who didn't belong to the brahmana caste, right from many of the
AzhwArs to excellent AchAryAs like vilAnchOlaip piLLai. None of them desired to
become brahmanas - they just glorified the Lord and his devotees, that is all.
As the days progress, synthesis of religion and
liberal ideologies - I don't know if it is going to have a happy ending or not.
-adiyEn dAsan, Kidambi Soundararajan.
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01-11-2006, 08:02 AM

all.i think this is my first mail in this forum after being a member for more
than 3 months.i have been following most of the discussion sincerely and i hav
also learned alot.i thought of adding few words to this subject about
ISKCON.its true that there are many things going on which is against our
sampradaya and if we vaisnavites tend to correct,then we are labelled as cast
conscious etc etc.expecially in the place that im born and brought
up(malaysia)this beleive is almost in every corner of the country.im proud that
it is following bhagavatham and bhagavad gita in close but certain things are
very strange.i beleive probably its to suit western vaishnavites but then i
think certain things are causing confusion and even i would say great dosham.il
give few examples from what i know besides what has been pin pointed.firstly
women cahnting gayatri japam has been dealt in detail and we know the reason
why it should
not be said why women.adiyen being a pattar brahmin,do not tell in spite of
knowing in and out of it but then some of my college friends are having
cassetes and cd's out of it and in western music pattern which is composed by
ISCKON(not sure which center). the gayatri mantra told with english slang is
jus unexplanabile...it sounds like a mixture of many things loosing its
originality.beside this,girls or women with menses can take part in all pooja
in the temple.the explanation given are sometimes unbeleivable,(radha with sri
krishna is always with him in spite of she being women having all hormone
changes.some even have agrued with me that once in isckon,all women are
gopikas',so they will always be with god. when we say part of explanation,we
are claimed to be orthodox,etc etc.the concept in ISCkon is noble and need to
be saluted but at the smae time if these corrections are done it will be
perfect for all the
followers.they should not confuse vaishnavism and brahminism. brahmanan is by
birth and by not by any initiation.one can argue that lifestyle is also a
parameter,agreed.taking into that in consideration,i believe that is more
suitable for any man who si leading a vedic life. what is the hunger into
getting initiated being a brahmin when god is not looking at any of these when
it comes getting his blessings. he accepts everyone. basically people should
love themself,live and improve lifestyle towards vedic life than trying to
change identity.this mails not meant to hurt any party but its jus to make few
comments and suggestion on how to be a perfect society.may god bless all the
noble work of all people towards sri vaishnavamadiyen,shamini gayatri
krishnan--- In ramanuja (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Vijaya Raghavan wrote:>>
Swamin,> > These are some of
thughts collected from different kalakshepams.> > 1. Iskon, initiates every
one into vaishnavism, though a different form. They do this as initiation to
vaishnavism. I dont think they make evrybody brahmins. Again though this we can
say is a western concept, is actually a process started by our own emperumanar
even.> > Only difference is the initiation of women which is purely a
retrogade step and they will learn by themselves.> > 2. Even bagwan says "
Sarva dharman parityajya....." Swami Desikan says "Anyatha saranam nasti ....."
.. As longas any sould surrenders to him and him alone we have to welcome that.
Mukur swami use to tell 'My lord carries the padam of the beloved on his head".
This we have to celebrate the lord in them as he would like to handle them
solely and follow them.>
> 3. As for as the Thiruman and the Gopi goes, before thiruman during the
times of ram and Krsna they wore only sandal on their heads. This was taught to
me by one SESHADRI swami during my pratmic class.> > 4. Yes we have to save
our culture as it explains the travails of the sould from the Jada jivan to this
level. This way of living and culture needs to be preserved by explaining the
significance of each of our rituals as that alsone can make our sampradayam
sustain.> > PLS DO CORRECT IF I AM WRONG PARTLY OR FULLY.> >
DASAN/raghavan> > vimalkumar ranganathan wrote:> >
SrI:> Dear Sri Mohan
Swamin,> Whilst your points are indeed
effective, I would like to ramble a couple of my thoughts, as somebody who had
been deeply attached to ISKCON in the past:> > 1) When it is accepted that
becoming a Vaishnava is paramount and not the varna-affiliation, I am not able
to reconcile with the fact that ISKCON gives "brahmana initiation" to all and
sundry (including Women!!!) which has no prior vedic pramanas, even in our
Sampradayam, our AchAryAs never tampered with the varna system, granted they
made it a strong point that being a Srivaishnava is more important. Brahmana
initiation for ladies and ladies chanting Gayathri in ISKCON - I don't know if
it is western influence,
or implicitly vEdic. I would love to be corrected on this regard. > > 2)
Worse, many of our "Iyengars" take "initiation" from western-born SwAmis and
Goswamis of ISKCON - thus symbolically relegating all their responsibilities to
our Ramanuja Matham, sporting the Gopi Chandanam which is different from Sri
Vaishnava sampradayam. Worse, I know of so-called SrivaishnavAs who sport
fantastic thirumaN during socio-religious occasions but immediately revert to
the Gopi-Chandanam at home - which reflects the pitiable condition of our
sampradayam. Also, I can't understand the logic beyond young unmarried
males/females from Srivaishnava families being "initiated" in ISKCON, thus
accepting Gaudiya Sampradayam. I once asked a very nice ISKCON sannyasi about
the same - if they respect Srivaishnavism so much, why should they initiate
disciples from SV, instead of just asking them to just follow the
Srivaishnava Matham? His answer was, disciples even from Srivaishnava families
unconditionally surrender to Him explaining their lack of interest in SV, he
initiates> them only then. I couldn't doubt Him. > > 3) Granted, there
are many positively influential points in ISKCON that we learn from -
food-style, commitment, etc. Unfortunately we are losing many of our brethen -
young and old alike to a different sampradayam with philosophies and practices
orthogonal to ours. > > Dasan,> Kidambi Soundararajan. > > > >
Azhvar EmberumAnAr JeeyAr ThiruvadigalE Saranam > http://www.vedics.net> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > Visit your group "ramanuja" on the web.> > To unsubscribe
from this group, send an email to:> ramanuja-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > >
> ---------------------------------> > > > > > >
---------------------------------> Yahoo! Photos> Got holiday prints? See all
the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.>
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01-11-2006, 08:41 AM

01-11-2006, 10:59 AM

Dear Sri Kidambi Soundararajan,

Thanks for your reply, of course I understand that you too hold
Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that I in no way am
trying to find fault with you or others, but I merely feel that
their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue (although
perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe I have a soft
spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being
brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point
without bias.

Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful
of this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas"
debate but since you asked I am suggesting some references. I don't
know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess.

Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of the
figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were instrumental in
bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they are
in, they asked the very questions that needed to be answered.

As a result this would obviously imply that since these women
were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would claim
that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas.
Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess.
Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika
Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the
bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an account in the Vedas
of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the 'rishikas'
(female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain
Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would
have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume
that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be
presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use
the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very
convincing (although as with everything, needs to be discussed by
the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth).

Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to
everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail
in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give
it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and
they are made to show their committment to living the vedic life.
Which is much more than can be said for today's birth brahmin
community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives who got rid of
their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was looking! I am
sure many of you can relate similar experiences.

In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do
deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. Again like I
said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic
lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and
the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact
the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those
with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees don't even know any
quotes from the Vedas!!!

It seems to me your worry is with the idea that they give
brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at
all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this: take a look at the
Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what more
authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the
former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was
given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher.
Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status
isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is my view (I
haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying - there are certainly
arguments to support the ISCKON view.

This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think
we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I
think we need to be careful that our cultural upbringing doesn't get
projected onto our expectations of what we think shaastras *should*
say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and shaastras is a
complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic scholars
and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON
doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't
for sure?

If you are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying
only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every
one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every single rule of
every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins
are even getting close to succeeding in this), then I will agree
that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on
this. But not until then.

Again I submit this with the utmost respect for yourself and the
other learned members and hope that it is taken in the spirit of
enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence is caused.

sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
namO naaraayaNaaya
aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam

with praNaamams,
Ranjan

01-11-2006, 10:09 PM

Dear Bhagwathas,

As i know about Iskcon, they follow
Pancharathra aghama vidhi in doing deity worship at
temples. Only intiated brahmins are allowed to do
arthi, deity decorations etc. and not other devottees
who are not given brahmin initiation.Entry to the
temple room is restricted only to the brahmin
initiated devottees.I think this can clarify why they
give brahmin initiation to the selected devottees who
are very sincere,pure and honest in devotional
service.

Krishna dasee
Vedavalli Ranganathan.
>
> Thanks for your reply, of course I understand
> that you too hold
> Gaudiyas in high respect. Let me make it clear that
> I in no way am
> trying to find fault with you or others, but I
> merely feel that
> their sampradaayam deserved defending on this issue
> (although
> perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe
> I have a soft
> spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due
> to being
> brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and
> make my point
> without bias.
>
> Coming to your point on women and
> yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful
> of this descending into the usual "why women
> shouldn't chant vedas"
> debate but since you asked I am suggesting some
> references. I don't
> know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON use but
> it's a guess.
>
> Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will
> know of the
> figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were
> instrumental in
> bringing about the existence of the respective
> upanishads they are
> in, they asked the very questions that needed to be
> answered.
>
> As a result this would obviously imply that
> since these women
> were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps
> they would claim
> that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting
> the Vedas.
> Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this
> is my guess.
> Also you may be able to find articles on "Women and
> the Vaidika
> Matham" or some similar title by Sriman Sadagopan
> Swami on the
> bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an
> account in the Vedas
> of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the
> 'rishikas'
> (female rishis) responsible for receiving the
> revelation of certain
> Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying
> that women would
> have chanted these mantras (However, I do not take
> this to presume
> that Sriman Sadagopin Swami's views agree with
> ISCKON's, it would be
> presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON
> wanted to use
> the above as a shastraic justification, I think this
> is very
> convincing (although as with everything, needs to be
> discussed by
> the acharyas of the respective mathams in depth).
>
> Again your statement "why should they give
> brahmana initiation to
> everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went
> into some detail
> in my previous email describing that they most
> certainly do not give
> it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very
> strictly vetted and
> they are made to show their committment to living
> the vedic life.
> Which is much more than can be said for today's
> birth brahmin
> community, as a whole. I certainly know relatives
> who got rid of
> their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was
> looking! I am
> sure many of you can relate similar experiences.
>
> In the ISKCON community, I think it is only the
> people who do
> deity worship that are given brahmana initiation.
> Again like I
> said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the
> *strict* Vedic
> lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana
> initiation, and
> the only mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna
> mantra. In fact
> the Gaudiya matha are so good at safeguarding Vedas
> only to those
> with brahmana initiation that many lay devotees
> don't even know any
> quotes from the Vedas!!!
>
> It seems to me your worry is with the idea that
> they give
> brahmana initiation to any non-Indian/brahmin jaati
> people *at
> all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for this:
> take a look at the
> Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad
> (what more
> authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika
> upanishad. In the
> former, Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable
> parentage, was
> given upanayanam and studied the Vedic wisdom with
> his teacher.
> Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as proving that
> brahmaNa status
> isn't only by birth. Again, I am not saying this is
> my view (I
> haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am saying -
> there are certainly
> arguments to support the ISCKON view.
>
> This is what I mean by a firm shastraic footing -
> I don't think
> we can claim that the Gaudiyas don't have this
> shastraic backing. I
> think we need to be careful that our cultural
> upbringing doesn't get
> projected onto our expectations of what we think
> shaastras *should*
> say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and
> shaastras is a
> complex issue and needs to be done with the help of
> Vedic scholars
> and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume
> that ISCKON
> doesn't have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we
> know they don't
> for sure?
>
> If you are referring to the dharmashaastra
> injunctions saying
> only birth-dvijas and men should chant Vedas - ok
> then, once every
> one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every
> single rule of
> every dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual
> birth brahmins
> are even getting close to succeeding in this), then
> I will agree
> that we are in a position to criticise the ISCKON
> sampradaayam on
> this. But not until then.
>
> Again I submit this with the utmost respect for
> yourself and the
> other learned members and hope that it is taken in
> the spirit of
> enquiry and debate, please forgive me if any offence
> is caused.
>
> sarvAparAdhAn kShamasva
> namO naaraayaNaaya
> aaNDaaL tiruvaDigalE sharaNam
>
> with praNaamams,
> Ranjan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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01-12-2006, 03:27 AM

in high respect. Let me make it clear that I in no way am trying to find fault
with you or others, but I merely feel that their sampradaayam deserved
defending on this issue (although perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!).
Maybe I have a soft spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to
being brought up in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point without
bias. Coming to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful of
this descending into the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" debate but
since you asked I am suggesting some references. I don't know if this is the
exact pramANam ISKCON use but it's a guess. Anyone familiar with the major
upanishads will know of the figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were
instrumental in bringing about the existence of the respective upanishads they
are in, they asked the very
questions that needed to be answered. As a result this would obviously imply
that since these women were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they
would claim that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas.
Like I said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess. Also you may
be able to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika Matham" or some similar
title by Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the bhakti list archives, in which he even
gives an account in the Vedas of women performing yagnyas. In this article,
the 'rishikas' (female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of
certain Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would have
chanted these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume that Sriman
Sadagopin Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be presumptuous of me to
make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use
the above as a shastraic justification, I think this is very convincing
(although as with everything, needs to be discussed by the acharyas of the
respective mathams in depth). Again your statement "why should they give
brahmana initiation to everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into
some detail in my previous email describing that they most certainly do not give
it to *everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and they are made
to show their committment to living the vedic life. Which is much more than
can be said for today's birth brahmin community, as a whole. I certainly know
relatives who got rid of their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was
looking! I am sure many of you can relate similar experiences. In the
ISKCON community, I think it is only the people who do deity worship that are
given brahmana initiation. Again
like I said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic
lifestyle. Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and the only
mantra they will chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact the Gaudiya matha
are so good at safeguarding Vedas only to those with brahmana initiation that
many lay devotees don't even know any quotes from the Vedas!!! It seems to me
your worry is with the idea that they give brahmana initiation to any
non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for
this: take a look at the Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what
more authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the former,
Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was given upanayanam and
studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher. Therefore, ISCKON may cite this as
proving that brahmaNa status isn't only by birth.
Again, I am not saying this is my view (I haven't made my mind up yet!) but I am
saying - there are certainly arguments to support the ISCKON view. This is
what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think we can claim that the
Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I think we need to be careful that
our cultural upbringing doesn't get projected onto our expectations of what we
think shaastras *should* say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and
shaastras is a complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic
scholars and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON doesn't
have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't for sure? If you
are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying only birth-dvijas and
men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every one of us birth brahmins is
actually keeping every single rule of every
dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins are even getting
close to succeeding in this), then I will agree that we are in a position to
criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on this. But not until then.Again I submit
this with the utmost respect for yourself and the other learned members and
hope that it is taken in the spirit of enquiry and debate, please forgive me if
any offence is caused.sarvAparAdhAn kShamasvanamO naaraayaNaayaaaNDaaL
tiruvaDigalE sharaNamwith praNaamams,Ranjan
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01-12-2006, 03:54 AM

your reply, of course I understand that you too hold Gaudiyas in high respect.
Let me make it clear that I in no way am trying to find fault with you or
others, but I merely feel that their sampradaayam deserved defending on this
issue (although perhaps it is presumptuous of me to do so!). Maybe I have a
soft spot for their 'liberal values' as you call them due to being brought up
in the UK, but hopefully I will try and make my point without bias. Coming
to your point on women and yagnyopaveetam: I am fearful of this descending into
the usual "why women shouldn't chant vedas" debate but since you asked I am
suggesting some references. I don't know if this is the exact pramANam ISKCON
use but it's a guess. Anyone familiar with the major upanishads will know of
the figures of Gargi and Maitreyi. These women were instrumental in bringing
about the existence
of the respective upanishads they are in, they asked the very questions that
needed to be answered. As a result this would obviously imply that since
these women were the first to utter these veda mantras, perhaps they would
claim that there cannot be a blanket ban on women chanting the Vedas. Like I
said, I don't know their pramaaNam, but this is my guess. Also you may be able
to find articles on "Women and the Vaidika Matham" or some similar title by
Sriman Sadagopan Swami on the bhakti list archives, in which he even gives an
account in the Vedas of women performing yagnyas. In this article, the
'rishikas' (female rishis) responsible for receiving the revelation of certain
Veda mantras are also discussed - again implying that women would have chanted
these mantras (However, I do not take this to presume that Sriman Sadagopin
Swami's views agree with ISCKON's, it would be
presumptuous of me to make such a guess). If ISCKON wanted to use the above as
a shastraic justification, I think this is very convincing (although as with
everything, needs to be discussed by the acharyas of the respective mathams in
depth). Again your statement "why should they give brahmana initiation to
everyone" that troubles me somewhat, I think I went into some detail in my
previous email describing that they most certainly do not give it to
*everyone*. Those who get it are very strictly vetted and they are made to
show their committment to living the vedic life. Which is much more than can
be said for today's birth brahmin community, as a whole. I certainly know
relatives who got rid of their 'pooNal' as soon as they were sure no-one was
looking! I am sure many of you can relate similar experiences. In the
ISKCON community, I think it is only the
people who do deity worship that are given brahmana initiation. Again like I
said, the ones who are fully prepared to live the *strict* Vedic lifestyle.
Most lay devotees do not get brahmana initiation, and the only mantra they will
chant is the Hare Krishna mantra. In fact the Gaudiya matha are so good at
safeguarding Vedas only to those with brahmana initiation that many lay
devotees don't even know any quotes from the Vedas!!! It seems to me your
worry is with the idea that they give brahmana initiation to any
non-Indian/brahmin jaati people *at all*. Well, I have seen their pramANam for
this: take a look at the Satyakaama Jabala episode in Chaandogya upanishad (what
more authority do they need?) and the Vajrasuchika upanishad. In the former,
Satyakama Jabala, though of questionable parentage, was given upanayanam and
studied the Vedic wisdom with his teacher. Therefore,
ISCKON may cite this as proving that brahmaNa status isn't only by birth.
Again, I am not saying this is my view (I haven't made my mind up yet!) but I
am saying - there are certainly arguments to support the ISCKON view. This is
what I mean by a firm shastraic footing - I don't think we can claim that the
Gaudiyas don't have this shastraic backing. I think we need to be careful that
our cultural upbringing doesn't get projected onto our expectations of what we
think shaastras *should* say. Needless to say, understanding the Vedas and
shaastras is a complex issue and needs to be done with the help of Vedic
scholars and achaaryas themselves - but let us not presume that ISCKON doesn't
have any Vedic scholars of its own - do we know they don't for sure? If you
are referring to the dharmashaastra injunctions saying only birth-dvijas and
men should chant Vedas - ok then, once every
one of us birth brahmins is actually keeping every single rule of every
dharmashaastra (I bet less than 1% of actual birth brahmins are even getting
close to succeeding in this), then I will agree that we are in a position to
criticise the ISCKON sampradaayam on this. But not until then.Again I submit
this with the utmost respect for yourself and the other learned members and
hope that it is taken in the spirit of enquiry and debate, please forgive me if
any offence is caused.sarvAparAdhAn kShamasvanamO naaraayaNaayaaaNDaaL
tiruvaDigalE sharaNamwith praNaamams,Ranjan
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01-13-2006, 02:27 AM

Sri Ranjan,

My sincere apologies for conveying the wrong message. Please be rest
assured that I have utmost respect for ISKCON and have served as an
active member of our local temple's advisory board for several years. I
also consider several devotees as close, personal friends.

I hope with this in mind, you can better understand the intent of my
concerns. What I have been observing in the subsequent postings is the
misrepresentation that Sri sampradayam is mainly comprised of Brahmin
(Iyengars) and that the Gayatri mantra somehow plays some significant
role in becoming a Sri Vaishnava. The varna system - whether we
believe is birth-based or not - is a state of the body. One's being a
brahmana by birth or choice obligates that person to certain rules and
codes of conduct that exclude him from the society at large. The
practice of Vaidika rituals and proper observation of sastra is also
important. Whether or not the Iyengars of today follow this is another
story, but we all must agree that this what Vedas say - at least from
our understanding of it.

But, from the Sri Vaishnava perspective, which I would agree only
accepts the birth-based varna concept, caste is really a condition of
the body. Being a Vaishnava, as our Acharyas say, is a condition of the
soul. It involves the realization of "dasatvam" in ISKCON or
"seshatvam" in the Sri sampradayam, the feeling that one lives to serve
the Lord for His Pleasure. Such a psychological/spiritual position is
expressed quite differently, through chanting the Holy Name, serving
fellow devotees, and so on. Such activities have nothing to do with
varna or gender. Even the role of Vaidika rituals change for those who
regard themselves to be Brahmin because they are done in His Service
without expectation of personal reward. . Therefore, I am of the
opinion that if one follows a Vaishnava school, the role of this
dastavam/seshatvam should be emphasized, keeping the Vaidika rituals in
proper context as being the svadharma of those who wish to engage in
rituals for the Lord's Service. It is in keeping this mood of servitude
that I see ISKCON serving as a model to other Vaishnava schools of thought.

I hope this helps to clarify my position.

adiyen
Mohan

> Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the gaayatri
>mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see
>themselves as a fully Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has closely
>observed an ISKCON worship service will notice that their poojaris
>(often non-Indians, who have been given yagnyopaveetam) do recite
>vedic mantras during worship including Purusha suukta, Vishnu suukta
>and others, and if you ask them about their practice you will find
>that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam. This isn't
>just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail a
>couple of times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in the
>UK who also performs priestly duties for many Indian Hindu
>families.
>
> Any student of Gaudiya sampradaayam will also know that they
>don't subscribe to the 'birth' based view of varna prevalent in Sri
>sampradaayam - hence their giving of yagnyopaveetam to non-birth
>brahmins. Your observation that the chanting of Vedas is restricted
>by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas,
>but I think we should respect the strongly held conviction of the
>Gaudiyas on this. They too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam
>stating that 'individuals displaying the required characterists are
>eligible for gaayatri'. Any further discussion of this would
>probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate which
>has happened too many times on other lists. My point is that
>recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and sampradaayic
>position in ISCKON which we should respect.
>
>
>

01-13-2006, 07:26 AM

Soundararajan. AzhwAr emperumAnAr jeeyar thiruvadigaLE Saranam.Mohan Sagar
wrote: Sri Ranjan,My sincere apologies for
conveying the wrong message. Please be rest assured that I have utmost respect
for ISKCON and have served as an active member of our local temple's advisory
board for several years. I also consider several devotees as close, personal
friends.I hope with this in mind, you can better understand the intent of my
concerns. What I have been observing in the subsequent postings is the
misrepresentation that Sri sampradayam is mainly comprised of Brahmin
(Iyengars) and that the Gayatri mantra somehow plays some significant role in
becoming a Sri Vaishnava. The varna system - whether we believe is
birth-based or not - is a state of the body. One's being a brahmana by birth or
choice obligates that person to certain rules and codes of conduct that exclude
him from the society at large. The practice of Vaidika rituals and proper
observation of sastra is also important. Whether or not the Iyengars of today
follow this is another story, but we all must agree that this what Vedas say -
at least from our understanding of it.But, from the Sri Vaishnava perspective,
which I would agree only accepts the birth-based varna concept, caste is really
a condition of the body. Being a Vaishnava, as our Acharyas say, is a condition
of the soul. It involves the realization of "dasatvam" in ISKCON or "seshatvam"
in the Sri sampradayam, the feeling that one lives to serve the Lord for His
Pleasure. Such a psychological/spiritual position is expressed quite
differently, through chanting the Holy Name,
serving fellow devotees, and so on. Such activities have nothing to do with
varna or gender. Even the role of Vaidika rituals change for those who regard
themselves to be Brahmin because they are done in His Service without
expectation of personal reward. . Therefore, I am of the opinion that if one
follows a Vaishnava school, the role of this dastavam/seshatvam should be
emphasized, keeping the Vaidika rituals in proper context as being the
svadharma of those who wish to engage in rituals for the Lord's Service. It is
in keeping this mood of servitude that I see ISKCON serving as a model to other
Vaishnava schools of thought.I hope this helps to clarify my
position.adiyenMohan> Sriman Mohan, as to why ISKCON has adopted use of the
gaayatri >mantra, I am sure anyone who asks them will know that they see
>themselves as a fully
Vaidika sampradaayam. Anyone who has closely >observed an ISKCON worship
service will notice that their poojaris >(often non-Indians, who have been
given yagnyopaveetam) do recite >vedic mantras during worship including Purusha
suukta, Vishnu suukta >and others, and if you ask them about their practice you
will find >that they do in fact perform trikaala sandhyaavandanam. This isn't
>just my guess, I happen to have discussed these issues in detail a >couple of
times with a prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava academic in the >UK who also performs
priestly duties for many Indian Hindu >families. >> Any student of Gaudiya
sampradaayam will also know that they >don't subscribe to the 'birth' based
view of varna prevalent in Sri >sampradaayam - hence their giving of
yagnyopaveetam to non-birth >brahmins. Your observation that the chanting of
Vedas is restricted
>by birth may be the understanding of most Sri Vaishnava acharyas, >but I think
we should respect the strongly held conviction of the >Gaudiyas on this. They
too will be able to quote vedic pramaaNam >stating that 'individuals displaying
the required characterists are >eligible for gaayatri'. Any further discussion
of this would >probably spiral into the caste-by-birth-or-qualities debate
which >has happened too many times on other lists. My point is that
>recitation of Gaayatri and Vedas has a very secure, and sampradaayic >position
in ISCKON which we should respect.>> >
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