Forums may be closing soon

[RadhaMukunda]

When I registered on this forum, I was a little annoyed of the childish posts and I made fun of some discussions. But after having browsed on the forums, I see there are a some interesting debates going on. This forum is a survivor among all other Hindu forums. It would be a shame to close this forum down. Jahnava Nitai Das, you are a benefactor of us all, I beg you not to leave us wandering online.

[theist]

Originally Posted by --- A new forum " I am dumber than you" should be created. If only one person on any of the threads in any of the forums is abusive, he should be banned from that thread. If many people are arguing too much than that particular thread should be moved to "I am dumber than you " forum where the argumentative people can let their frustrations out and leave the original forum in peace. bottom line ... many of the forums are quite useful ...so please dont shut them down,a request...cheers!

Not bad. A cyber stockade. The humiliation factor.

=

[srikanthdk71]

Originally Posted by bhaktajan Originally Posted by srikanthdk71: "when you are the experiencer, you need not look upto anybody to confirm that it is right." .................................................. ........................... Therefore we do not need this Forum? Because we should not confer with anyone --but only listen to our own imperfect senses? When a stranger gives wrong travel directions, just so the stranger can feel like he has magnanimously contributed something of great value --even while knowing that he does not know 'the directions' --is such a digression.

Dear Bhaktjan, I am here to share my thoughts and experiences. I believe that everybody has something different to offer in their quest for truth. Atleast I am not here to find a Guru or direction. I am only here to share and comprahend with my experiences.

I completely agree that stranger concept of yours. Where is the stranger. Outside you or within you? It is always outside you. If you consider yourself a stranger, then we get lost in soul searching.

Secondly about the listening to imperfect senses. Have you already decided all your senses are imperfect. If so, there wouldnt be the words called clairvoient and clairaudient. You can make your senses perfect. Everything is perfectly manufactured. Only it needs fine tuning.

Lastly about the knowledge of directions. Outside you - many (confusing & also thrilling to the senses) and inside you, only one (convincing).

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Thank you for all the opinions and suggestions.

Just to clarify, as some people have brought up the idea of charging members to keep the forum open. The problem really isn't a financial matter, and we wouldnt want to charge people to participate in a spiritual forum. In case anyone is curious, we pay around $250 a month for the server to host these forums. It started at $10 a month when we first opened the forums in 2000 (a few of the present posters were around back then), and due to increases in trafic we have had to upgrade about once a year. Eventually we needed a seperate server to run it, then a more powerful server, and then again a more powerful server. In addition to that there are all sorts of other expenses, like $120 a month for a suitable internet connection to do server maintenance (just 1mbps, but they are expensive here), and software fees.

More important than the money is the amount of time people have to put in to keep the forums running properly. I had already mentioned the moderator's, who have to spend a lot of time watching posts, trying to ban trouble makers who keep coming back under different names, and of course the hardest part of trying to keep everyone "satisfied" while remaining impartial.

Then there is the technical aspect of server administration, which unfortunately I am stuck with myself. As the forums grew bigger I had to learn it all from scratch, unix, mysql, managing server loads, php programming, html designing, etc. It takes up a lot of time, but lately I am having less free time to work on it. And it's no longer looking like the best possible use for the time I have.

In the beginning I could justify spending the time and effort on the forums because there was the hope that the forums would help people spiritually. I am sure some people have benefitted from the forums, but not nearly as many as could have if it were a more peaceful place. Plus many people have been turned away as well, so we can't see it really as a success.

Already people complain about too much censorship, so I don't think being more strict is going to make anyone happy. Perhaps there could be new zero tolerance rules where no one is allowed to insult other members. But for that we would need a lot of new moderators, and those moderators would have to be impartial. I'm not sure if it's possible to find impartial moderators who will not align their moderation with their personal beliefs.

If the forums do close down, the time frame will likely be around 2 months.

One possibility would be to lock all the forums, but create a private forum here for regular members, but then there will be no visitors participating and posts will likely be very few. A second option is to just lock the spiritual discussions forum like theist suggested, and then find moderators for each individual forum from followers of that school. That way outsiders cannot interfere in each forum's posts. But again there may be far fewer visitors to each individual forum, and no generally inquisitive people.

Another option would be to moderate all posts before they are posted. This would slow down communication a lot, but the forums would be fully clean. It would also require many moderators to screen all the posts. The benefit of this would be a completely peaceful forum.

A final possibility would be to lock the forums but allow visitors to submit questions to a "help desk system" where volunteers (some of the long time members) would personally reply and carry on conversations one on one with the visitor through email using the help desk system. This would offer the best chance for spiritual cultivation, but then there would be no public discussion.

One poster in this thread mentioned about people posting "misinformation", and that leading to arguments. I agree with him that this is one of the main problems which is hard to deal with. When someone posts misinformation about your lineage's teachings it is hard not to get involved in an argument. Also the amount of misinformation being posted is sometimes so much that its impossible to reply to all of it. If its not replied to (and most of the time its not) it results in people being misled, which is the complete opposite of what this forum is meant for.

Right now I see the forums as being very useful for experienced members who have the knowledge to sort out the good from the bad, but the real purpose of the forums was meant to be for the newcomers.

[suchandra]

Originally Posted by Jahnava Nitai Das Thank you for all the opinions and suggestions. Just to clarify, as some people have brought up the idea of charging members to keep the forum open. The problem really isn't a financial matter, and we wouldnt want to charge people to participate in a spiritual forum. In case anyone is curious, we pay around $250 a month for the server to host these forums. It started at $10 a month when we first opened the forums in 2000 (a few of the present posters were around back then), and due to increases in trafic we have had to upgrade about once a year. Eventually we needed a seperate server to run it, then a more powerful server, and then again a more powerful server. In addition to that there are all sorts of other expenses, like $120 a month for a suitable internet connection to do server maintenance (just 1mbps, but they are expensive here), and software fees. More important than the money is the amount of time people have to put in to keep the forums running properly. I had already mentioned the moderator's, who have to spend a lot of time watching posts, trying to ban trouble makers who keep coming back under different names, and of course the hardest part of trying to keep everyone "satisfied" while remaining impartial. Then there is the technical aspect of server administration, which unfortunately I am stuck with myself. As the forums grew bigger I had to learn it all from scratch, unix, mysql, managing server loads, php programming, html designing, etc. It takes up a lot of time, but lately I am having less free time to work on it. And it's no longer looking like the best possible use for the time I have. In the beginning I could justify spending the time and effort on the forums because there was the hope that the forums would help people spiritually. I am sure some people have benefitted from the forums, but not nearly as many as could have if it were a more peaceful place. Plus many people have been turned away as well, so we can't see it really as a success. Already people complain about too much censorship, so I don't think being more strict is going to make anyone happy. Perhaps there could be new zero tolerance rules where no one is allowed to insult other members. But for that we would need a lot of new moderators, and those moderators would have to be impartial. I'm not sure if it's possible to find impartial moderators who will not align their moderation with their personal beliefs. If the forums do close down, the time frame will likely be around 2 months. One possibility would be to lock all the forums, but create a private forum here for regular members, but then there will be no visitors participating and posts will likely be very few. A second option is to just lock the spiritual discussions forum like theist suggested, and then find moderators for each individual forum from followers of that school. That way outsiders cannot interfere in each forum's posts. But again there may be far fewer visitors to each individual forum, and no generally inquisitive people. Another option would be to moderate all posts before they are posted. This would slow down communication a lot, but the forums would be fully clean. It would also require many moderators to screen all the posts. The benefit of this would be a completely peaceful forum. A final possibility would be to lock the forums but allow visitors to submit questions to a "help desk system" where volunteers (some of the long time members) would personally reply and carry on conversations one on one with the visitor through email using the help desk system. This would offer the best chance for spiritual cultivation, but then there would be no public discussion. One poster in this thread mentioned about people posting "misinformation", and that leading to arguments. I agree with him that this is one of the main problems which is hard to deal with. When someone posts misinformation about your lineage's teachings it is hard not to get involved in an argument. Also the amount of misinformation being posted is sometimes so much that its impossible to reply to all of it. If its not replied to (and most of the time its not) it results in people being misled, which is the complete opposite of what this forum is meant for. Right now I see the forums as being very useful for experienced members who have the knowledge to sort out the good from the bad, but the real purpose of the forums was meant to be for the newcomers.

Thanks for clarification, yes, this makes lots of sense, the complexity to properly run a forum demands first class posts and first class dealings among the members. And even when all members would come up with a perfect perfomance while posting, there would be still the costs and unpaid work to run a forum.
What seems the solution for me is what many websites are already doing, to have a team of writers who compose well researched articles. Well written articles with qualified information content and in this way have a website with hopefully lots of readers who can write letters to the editor but not post comments instantly. How and if such a website can pay all the monthly bills remains again an uncertainty factor like with any other investment activity, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[srikanthdk71]

Dear Jahnava Nitai Das, you gave a shocker for all of us when you pinned in this article. This is the one and only forum which I enjoy posting on. People here know the subject, they are really seekers of truth and willing to comprehend on any aspect even with a bit of tutu-maimai here and there including me. I must admit that there should be personal care to people where they shouldnt loose heart like Brahmoham,cbrahma who are inactive now a days. Even theist,shvu is absent for a long time. We just love to be among these people with different thought speaking the same language of spirituality.

[Amlesh]

Originally Posted by srikanthdk71 I must admit that there should be personal care to people where they shouldnt loose heart like Brahmoham,cbrahma who are inactive now a days. Even theist,shvu is absent for a long time. We just love to be among these people with different thought speaking the same language of spirituality.

kaiserose = shvu
shvu = kaiserose
Don't worry srikant he is still here.

But seriously, I'm missing cBrahma.

...and I'm wondering where is bija.

[mahak]

haribol. I, for one, have always been leaning toward the newcomer who may stumble upon this site. It reminds me, cyberly, of the mid sixties where I stumbled upon devotees, and gradually became influenced by them, both in good ways and even the baggage that is surely present in fellow kanistha adhikaris.

So I appreciate Sri Jahnava Nitais similar leanings. If this were just a site for burnt out ex hare krsnas to spout their thirty year old gripes, Id say shut it down.

But then I think of the wonderful associations that are impossible otherwise. How would a fifty eight year old ex hippie living in the wasteland of the american dream obtain association with a teenaged wonderful devotee like Indulekhadasi? Or get the level headed interpretations of the Hindu community and their better understandings of the interrelationships between the personalities like Siva and Ganesha and how our Lord Krsna is actually their servant, bound by their devotion to Him.

There arre so many options of what we can do, but alas, Kali is a very hard time. We cannot and will not go anywhere else. How long did most of us go from the end of VNN to finding this site? How many never did? I still remember the names of the personalities there, like the best of all poets Pracetana devi dasi, and sooo many others never heard from again?

Gotta run, a bus to catch, but the clock seems to be running. Im going to start a new thread, one for us all to say goodbye to each other. Maybe its a non-issue, because the kali yuga events are very swift as we read and write. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[indulekhadasi]

Oh please...don't put me on a pedestal. I am young and do not know good from bad. I am (was?) so fortunate to get all of YOUR association.

[kaisersose]

Originally Posted by Amlesh kaiserose = shvu shvu = kaiserose Don't worry srikant he is still here. But seriously, I'm missing cBrahma. ...and I'm wondering where is bija.

Right, As I mentioned elsewhere, I changed my screen name. I was not banned or anything, but shvu had become too old and it was time for a change.

Cheers

[theist]

Originally Posted by Jahnava Nitai Das Thank you for all the opinions and suggestions. Just to clarify, as some people have brought up the idea of charging members to keep the forum open. The problem really isn't a financial matter, and we wouldnt want to charge people to participate in a spiritual forum. In case anyone is curious, we pay around $250 a month for the server to host these forums. It started at $10 a month when we first opened the forums in 2000 (a few of the present posters were around back then), and due to increases in trafic we have had to upgrade about once a year. Eventually we needed a seperate server to run it, then a more powerful server, and then again a more powerful server. In addition to that there are all sorts of other expenses, like $120 a month for a suitable internet connection to do server maintenance (just 1mbps, but they are expensive here), and software fees. More important than the money is the amount of time people have to put in to keep the forums running properly. I had already mentioned the moderator's, who have to spend a lot of time watching posts, trying to ban trouble makers who keep coming back under different names, and of course the hardest part of trying to keep everyone "satisfied" while remaining impartial. Then there is the technical aspect of server administration, which unfortunately I am stuck with myself. As the forums grew bigger I had to learn it all from scratch, unix, mysql, managing server loads, php programming, html designing, etc. It takes up a lot of time, but lately I am having less free time to work on it. And it's no longer looking like the best possible use for the time I have. In the beginning I could justify spending the time and effort on the forums because there was the hope that the forums would help people spiritually. I am sure some people have benefitted from the forums, but not nearly as many as could have if it were a more peaceful place. Plus many people have been turned away as well, so we can't see it really as a success. Already people complain about too much censorship, so I don't think being more strict is going to make anyone happy. Perhaps there could be new zero tolerance rules where no one is allowed to insult other members. But for that we would need a lot of new moderators, and those moderators would have to be impartial. I'm not sure if it's possible to find impartial moderators who will not align their moderation with their personal beliefs. If the forums do close down, the time frame will likely be around 2 months. One possibility would be to lock all the forums, but create a private forum here for regular members, but then there will be no visitors participating and posts will likely be very few. A second option is to just lock the spiritual discussions forum like theist suggested, and then find moderators for each individual forum from followers of that school. That way outsiders cannot interfere in each forum's posts. But again there may be far fewer visitors to each individual forum, and no generally inquisitive people. Another option would be to moderate all posts before they are posted. This would slow down communication a lot, but the forums would be fully clean. It would also require many moderators to screen all the posts. The benefit of this would be a completely peaceful forum. A final possibility would be to lock the forums but allow visitors to submit questions to a "help desk system" where volunteers (some of the long time members) would personally reply and carry on conversations one on one with the visitor through email using the help desk system. This would offer the best chance for spiritual cultivation, but then there would be no public discussion. One poster in this thread mentioned about people posting "misinformation", and that leading to arguments. I agree with him that this is one of the main problems which is hard to deal with. When someone posts misinformation about your lineage's teachings it is hard not to get involved in an argument. Also the amount of misinformation being posted is sometimes so much that its impossible to reply to all of it. If its not replied to (and most of the time its not) it results in people being misled, which is the complete opposite of what this forum is meant for. Right now I see the forums as being very useful for experienced members who have the knowledge to sort out the good from the bad, but the real purpose of the forums was meant to be for the newcomers.

Hare Krishna Jahnava Nitai das,

There is yet another possibility. This site has something for almost everyone it seems. This no doubt came about by your nature to be all-inclusive. But that is a big job. Maybe it is time to be a bit more specific, get lean and trim away alot of boards. I would think 2/3's of the boards are unnecessary. And yes I am biased in which ones. I would keep all the Vaisnava boards from all the different Vaisnava sampradayas and Iskcon Internal for those whose interest is specifically in that organization.

Also the health and wellbeing forum, world review, jokes forum (Prabhupada once said that gentleman must have a sense of humor), and a few others and let the Advaitins and religionists find their own outlets.

I definetly agree with the idea of keeping the boards for open for newcomers. The last thing I want to do is put time in on a forum just talking to other long time spiritual slackers like myself. Propagating the Holy Names and the reality of God to new souls is the heart and soul of the Krishna consciousness movement as it comes down through Srila Prabhupada.

I abhor all cliques. In fact I have not been back to Iskcon Berkeley since they started locking the doors to the public during the weekdays. It doesn't matter that they might let me in because I am known to them or not. When the general populace is locked out I stay outside with them because I know the spirit of Srila Prabhupada is then also locked out.

I met the devotees on a street corner and joined the street chanting long before i went to the temple. I see the forums here as a type of cyber street corner. Harassers will always show up but what is needed is an effective way to deal with them.

I remember when some religious fanatics (so-called Christians) started comeing to the street chantings daily carrying big placards denouncing us and using those signs to block the kirtan party from being seen by others. We started circumabulating the Lord in their heart and them dancing and chanting circles around them like the old westerns showing the Indians encircling a wagon train. It then became ecstatic (and funny) as small crowds would form laughing at the plight of the poor fanatics whom came to harass us. They stopped coming back after the fourth day.

Can't do that with a forum so some strict moderation needs to be applied. And even some favoritism. We have to choose on the matter of is poly-theism and Advaita on the same level as Vaisnavism or not?You have made that choice in your personal life and no harm in reflecting that on your forums.

Maybe it's time to be a forum that only entertains the Vaisnava vviewpoint.

Dandavats prabhu

[Sarva gattah]

Originally Posted by Jahnava Nitai Das Another option would be to moderate all posts before they are posted. This would slow down communication a lot, but the forums would be fully clean. It would also require many moderators to screen all the posts. The benefit of this would be a completely peaceful forum. Right now I see the forums as being very useful for experienced members who have the knowledge to sort out the good from the bad, but the real purpose of the forums was meant to be for the newcomers.

These are very good points, remember this is only the beginning of the this kind of communication facility for encouraging Spirituality. Nothing like it has been seen in the recorded history of at least the last 5000 years.

[kaisersose]

I was browsing this thread and here is a gem...

Originally Posted by theist Learn something then share it. Then Krishna will be more inclined to give us more to learn and share. No jiva is an island unto themselves. "Krishna is alone..." This is mayavadi nonsense.

And the Mayavada expert is at it again!

Like I said earlier, this scholarly gentleman cannot keep his nose out of Mayavada for more than a few days at a stretch. A single example of how flame wars have been initiated on this forum.

And if he can have his way, this is what he would like to present to new comers. By removing Advaitins from the forum (as he has proposed above), he becomes free to post all kinds of junk on Mayavada and remain unchallenged. Applying such a strategy to newcomers is commonly known as brainwashing.

First step -> Remove Advaitins.
Second Step -> Remove Hindus as they are hateful of Hare Krishnas who find it critical to label Jesus as a Vaishnava without evidence.
Third Step -> Remove all Vaishnavas who are non-Gaudiya Vaishnavas because they are Aparadhis.

And Bingo! We have a clean HK forum where Mayavada is poison, Jesus is a pure Vaishnava and Hinduism is not a religion because Hindu is not a Sanskrit word!

Perfect….this is what newcomers have been missing and this is exactly what they need to read.

Cheers