When all are doing wrong, be the first to do right or just keep silent. Yes??? - Page 2

tackleberry · 05-16-2008, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

I did not speak out because I had no hard evidence to present to others, and I was afraid that perhaps I am seeing it from a wrong perspective. I also did not want to shatter the tender faith of these new devotees.

He was a very clever man, too. He knew I had a strong sense of honor and he made me promise I will not "drag down others with my maya". Later he tried to ruin my reputation by spreading vicious lies among the devotees who were shocked that I was kicked out. It was a mess... He even tried to take away my service of translating Prabhupada's books. Fortunately Harikesa did not listen to him on that account. I was living alone, working full time, following strict sadhana, and translating Bhagavatam for several hours every day.

I hope he has changed, because he is now a guru and a GBC in Iskcon.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. How did you recover from all this, how long did it take, did any of your friends help you out? I've been hearing these things about iskcon all the time, is this always the case? I mean, the big guys trying make life miserable for the little ones?

And if this person is still around as you say, it seems as if no one's done anything about it. Unless these people are stopped, there won't be a lesson for others to learn, in which case these atrocities will persist.

Kulapavana · 05-16-2008, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tackleberry

Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. How did you recover from all this, how long did it take, did any of your friends help you out? I've been hearing these things about iskcon all the time, is this always the case? I mean, the big guys trying make life miserable for the little ones?

And if this person is still around as you say, it seems as if no one's done anything about it. Unless these people are stopped, there won't be a lesson for others to learn, in which case these atrocities will persist.

It took a very long time to recover. Years. Some of my devotee friends helped me a lot, by secretly visiting me or allowing me to visit the centers they maintained (I was banned from visiting temples). Even today big puffed up leaders can make a lot of trouble for the common devotees, but back then it was a completely totalitarian system.

As to making things better for the future: IMO the key is education of rank and file devotees as to what the real KC should look like, and training them to think for themselves and trust their heart and gut instincts. The top manipulators have the power only because the rank and file devotees LET THEM have that power.

cbrahma · 05-16-2008, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tackleberry

May I ask why you didn't speak out? Was it due to loyalty? Or, was there pressure? Sorry if it's too sensitive an issue.

There are so many reasons for silent acquiescence in ISKCON.

First, there is the material dependancy. If you don't have anywhere to go, no means of support you will be afraid of ending up on the street.

Second, there is philosophical manipulation. 'One should not criticize senior godbrothers' 'Vaisnava apharada' etc...

Although there are other reasons, those two were good enough to cover years of corruption before the top blew off.

shvu · 05-16-2008, 08:07 AM

I recall reading Prabhupada during his last years once said or wrote "demons have entered the Krishna consciousness movement".

Perhaps he was helpless at that point to do something about it. But since he communicated this discovery, why did this not serve as a wakeup call for others?

Cheers

Kulapavana · 05-16-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shvu

I recall reading Prabhupada during his last years once said or wrote "demons have entered the Krishna consciousness movement".

Perhaps he was helpless at that point to do something about it. But since he communicated this discovery, why did this not serve as a wakeup call for others?

I think Prabhupada had so much "fatherly affection bias" for his disciples and so much faith in the purifying nature of KC process that he was not acting on such observations.

In the hindsight, there were very ominous signs in 1975-77 that the movement is in trouble yet no major structural reforms were ordered by Prabhupada. I disagree that he was helpless at that point - he was very much in complete control, and if he ordered for changes to be implemented, they would have been carried out. Instead he issued an order that current GBC's are to hold their position for life (unless they have deviated) and that new GBCs are to be chosen by the existing GBC members. In this way the status quo was preserved.

krsna · 05-16-2008, 11:58 AM

Your life may be the only Bible some people read. ~
Author Unknown

C'mon be like Thakura Haridas, they only look at him and they chant Hare Krsna spontaneously.

Do not repeat anything you will not sign your name to. ~Author Unknown

C'mon be real, genuine ; stop posing, being a pretender , or a con-artist in the guise of a Vaisnava.

krsna · 05-16-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shvu

I recall reading Prabhupada during his last years once said or wrote "demons have entered the Krishna consciousness movement".

Perhaps he was helpless at that point to do something about it. But since he communicated this discovery, why did this not serve as a wakeup call for others?

Cheers

I am intolerant, supremacist, a bully and violent.

I am highly inflammable and can explode if I am not treated preferentially and with respect.

At the same time, I abuse others and violate the rights of people of other faiths.

This makes me a demon.

Now the real miracle would be to turn me into a devotee.

The guru can perform such a miracle; I've simply have to give him my heart so that he can change me!

bhaktajan · 05-16-2008, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

...Prabhupada had..."fatherly affection bias"...in the purifying nature of KC process...there were very ominous signs in 1975-77...he was helpless at that point...he was very much in complete control...he issued an order...(unless they have deviated) that ... GBCs are to be chosen by...GBC members. In this way the status quo was preserved.

You poor poor man, how you have suffered.

Just see how you cannot think coherently.

All because you can't be a MONK!

If you want to pray somewhere and do your missionary work you should go do it your self.

Nobody has ever restrained you from your monastic path. No they really have not my friend.

But we all pine for being a recluse and being a reknowned recluse is even better.

One day we can slip into obscurity of a back woods samadhi and then recall the Passion of Kulapavana.

tackleberry · 05-16-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhaktajan

You poor poor man, how you have suffered.

Just see how you cannot think coherently.

All because you can't be a MONK!

If you want to pray somewhere and do your missionary work you should go do it your self.

Nobody has ever restrained you from your monastic path. No they really have not my friend.

But we all pine for being a recluse and being a reknowned recluse is even better.

One day we can slip into obscurity of a back woods samadhi and then recall the Passion of Kulapavana.

Bhakta Jan, I think you should be a little more sensitive and compassionate. Your attitude sucks, and most of the time, it's not even clear what you're trying to say.

bhaktajan · 05-16-2008, 02:30 PM

"Bhakta Jan, I think you should be a little more sensitive and compassionate. Your attitude sucks, and most of the time, it's not even clear what you're trying to say."

BUT THIS TIME IT"S CLEAR--IF THE KITCHEN IS TOO HOT... Get you own kitchen.

Kulapavana is lamenting for his lost youth and lost dream of leading a world revolution--but actually this chap is pining for a life of prayer and solitude --and he is NOT aware of this!

He waxes about living in a monastic order that asked him to leave?

Just go pray.

You can't understand my prose? Listen here punky-brewster. If I printed out Kulapavana dirty laundry and sought out real life devotees to read it to--I would be told the same thing you say about me above, by every devotee. You know why? Because it's "mental". Sounds like me? If my writtings are 'mental'--then count your self an expert in decerning "mental" babbling.

Now your duties include defending monks with out a cause?

OK OK I surrender--NOT!

battling babbling babes and boobs when I can,
Bhaktajan

I'm soo gonna give Kulapavana "nooggies" if ever I could . . .

cbrahma · 05-16-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

I think Prabhupada had so much "fatherly affection bias" for his disciples and so much faith in the purifying nature of KC process that he was not acting on such observations.

In the hindsight, there were very ominous signs in 1975-77 that the movement is in trouble yet no major structural reforms were ordered by Prabhupada. I disagree that he was helpless at that point - he was very much in complete control, and if he ordered for changes to be implemented, they would have been carried out. Instead he issued an order that current GBC's are to hold their position for life (unless they have deviated) and that new GBCs are to be chosen by the existing GBC members. In this way the status quo was preserved.

Kula. once again is mirepresenting the facts of ISKCON history and Prabhupada whose authority and credibility he therefore subtly undermines.

Quote:

DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS, INCORPORATED FOUNDER-ACHARYA: HIS DIVINE GRACE A. C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA DIRECTION OF MANAGEMENT

The GBC oversees all operations and management of ISKCON, as it receives direction from Srila Prabhupada and His Divine Grace has the final approval in all matters.
His Divine Grace will select the initial 12 members of the GBC. In the succeeding years the GBC will be elected by a vote of all Temple presidents who will vote for 8 from a ballot of all Temple presidents, which may also include any secretary who is in charge of a Temple. Those 8 with the greatest number of votes will be members for the next term of GBC. Srila Prabhupada will choose to retain four commissioners. In the event of Srila Prabhupada's absence, the retiring members will decide which four will remain.
The commissioners will serve for a period of 3 years, and they may be re-elected at the end of this period.
The chairman is elected by the GBC for each meeting. He has no veto power, but in even of a vote tie, his vote will decide. The same will apply for votes cast by mail between regular meetings.
Throughout the year, each of the commissioners will stay with His Divine Grace for one month at a time and keep the other commissioners informed of His Divine Grace's instructions.
The primary objective of the GBC is to organize the opening of new Temples and to maintain the established Temples.
Advice will be given by the GBC in cases of real property purchases, which will be in the name of ISKCON, INC. (Trucks or other vehicles will be purchased in the name of the local president).
Removal of a Temple president by the GBC requires support by the local Temple members.
The GBC has no jurisdiction in the publication of manuscripts, which will be handled by a separate committee; profits to be returned to Srila Prabhupada."

So far my books are concerned, I am setting up a different body of management known as the BHAKTIVEDANTA BOOK TRUST. The trustees of this body are also members of the GBC, but their function is not dependent on the GBC.
ISKCON Press was created for the exclusive publication of my books and literatures and should be continued in that way.
During my absence no one shall live in my apartment.
ACB
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Witnessed by:
Date July 28th 1970 (Robert F. Corens)
Rupanuga das Adhikary (William R. Ehrlichman)
Bhagavan das Adhikary (Kelly Gifford Smith)
Karandhar das Adhikary Date July 28th, 1970 At the World Head Quarters
3764, Watseka Avenue Los Angeles, California 90034

Kulapavana · 05-16-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhaktajan

Kulapavana is lamenting for his lost youth and lost dream of leading a world revolution--but actually this chap is pining for a life of pray and solitude --and he is NOT aware of this!

He waxes about living in a monastic order that ask him to leave?

When one speaks from the heart on public forums, one accepts a risk of being ridiculed, criticized, misunderstood, and so on. I have been writing here long enough to know that.

I do not really care what your take is on most things you write about, because very little of what you write makes any sense to me. Nor do I care about what your take is on me as a person, or as a devotee. There are people on this forum whose opinion I deeply respect and value because throug their posts I can see what kind of people they are. And I do take their criticism to heart.

As to the revolution: It has only just begun, and I am glad I'm still taking part in it, with all guns blazing. I am not a general in this revolution, just a front line machine-gunner.

bhaktajan · 05-16-2008, 03:01 PM

YEAH YEAH YEAH YADA YADA YADA!

This is why "WE" and all us other tax paying citizen don't live in the temple--because there are others who will berate our babblings right or wrong.

Yeah. But you know the "nooggies" will be there for you when you get home my brother.

Kulapavana · 05-16-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbrahma

Kula. once again is mirepresenting the facts of ISKCON history and Prabhupada whose authority and credibility he therefore subtly undermines.

and once again you show your ignorance of the FACTS:

In 1977, Srila Prabhupada stated that those already GBC should remain for life:

Satsvarupa: So our first question is about the GBC members. We want to know how long should they remain in office?
Prabhupada: They should remain for good.
Tamala Krsna: They should remain for good.
Prabhupada: Selected men are chosen, so they cannot be changed. (Room Conversation, May 28th, 1977)

theist · 05-16-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krsna

Your life may be the only Bible some people read. ~
Author Unknown

C'mon be like Thakura Haridas, they only look at him and they chant Hare Krsna spontaneously.

Do not repeat anything you will not sign your name to. ~Author Unknown

C'mon be real, genuine ; stop posing, being a pretender , or a con-artist in the guise of a Vaisnava.

Ouch! That hits home.