Vrajanatha: The spiritual rays of the transcendental Krsna-sun and the spiritual atoms within those rays are non-different from the sun, yet at the same time they are eternally different from it. How can both these facts be true simultaneously?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: In the material world, when one object is produced from another, either the product is completely different from its source, or else it remains a part of it. This is the nature of material objects. For example, an egg becomes separate from the mother bird once it is laid, whereas a person’s nails and hair remain part of the body until they are cut, even though they are produced from his body. However, the nature of cid-vastu is somewhat different. Whatever has manifested from the spiritual sun is simultaneously one with it, and different from it. The rays of the sun and the atomic particles in the rays are not separate from the sun, even after they have emanated from it. Similarly, the rays of Krsna’s svarupa, and the atoms in those rays – that is jiva-sakti and the jivas – are not separate from Him, even though they are produced from Him. At the same time, although the jivas are non–different from Krsna, they are also eternally different and separate from Him, because they have their own minute particle of independent desires. Therefore, the jiva’s difference and non-difference from Krsna is an eternal truth. This is the special feature of the cit realm. <o:p></o:p>
The sages give a partial example from our experience of inert matter. Suppose you cut a small piece of gold from a large piece, and use it to make a bangle. From the perspective of the gold, the bangle is not different from the original piece of gold; they are nondifferent. However, from the perspective of the bangle, the two are different from each other. This example is not a completely correct representation of cit-tattva, but it illustrates an important aspect: from the point of view of cit-tattva, there is no difference between Isvara and the jiva, whereas from the perspective of state and quantity, these two are eternally different. Isvara is complete cit, whereas the jiva is atomic cit. Isvara is great, whereas the jiva is insignificant. Some people give the example of ghata-akasa and maha-akasa (the sky in a pot, and the unlimited sky) in this regard, but this example is completely inconsistent with regard to cit-tattva.<o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: If transcendental entities and material objects belong to completely different categories, how can material objects be used as appropriate examples for understanding transcendental entities?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: There are different categories of material objects, and the panditas of the Nyaya school consider them eternal. However, there is no such categorical difference between the cit (transcendental) and jada (material). I have already said that cit is the only reality, and jada is simply its transformation (vikara). The vikara is different from the original source, but it is still similar to the pure, original object in many respects. For example, ice is a transformation of water, and it becomes different from water through this transformation, but the two remain similar in many of their qualities, such as coldness. Hot and cold water do not both have the quality of coldness, but their quality of fluidity is the same. Therefore, the transformed object certainly retains some similarity to the pure object. According to this principle, the transcendental (cit) world can be understood to some extent with the help of material examples. Again, by adopting the logic of arundhati-darsana1, one can use material examples to understand something about the spiritual nature.<o:p></o:p>
Krsna’s pastimes are completely spiritual, and there is not even the slightest scent of a material mood in them. The vraja-lila described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is transcendental, but when the descriptions are read in an assembly, the fruits of hearing them are different according to the respective qualifications of the various listeners. Appreciating the ornamental figures of speech from the mundane perspective, those who are absorbed in material sense gratification hear it as a story of an ordinary hero and heroine. The madhyama-adhikaris take shelter of arundhati-darsana-nyaya, and experience the transcendental pastimes, which are similar to mundane descriptions. And when the uttama-adhikari bhaktas hear the descriptions of those pastimes, they become absorbed in the rasa of pure transcendental cid-vilasa, which is above all mundane qualities. The Absolute Truth is aprakrta-tattva, so how can we educate the jivas about it without taking help of the principles that I have just described? Can the conditioned jiva understand a subject that renders the voice dumb and stops the working of the mind? There doesn’t appear to be any method of explaining these subjects other than the principle of similarity, and the logic of arundhati-darsana1. <o:p></o:p>
Material objects can be either different or non-different from each other, so difference and non-difference are not visible in them at one and the same time, but this is not the case with paramatattva. We have to accept that Krsna is simultaneously different and non-different from His jiva-sakti and from the jivas in it. This bhedabheda-tattva (simultaneous difference and oneness) is said to be acintya (inconceivable) because it is beyond the limit of human intellect.<o:p></o:p>
1 Arundhati is a very small star, which is situated close to the Vasistha star in the Saptarsi constellation (the Great Bear). In order to view it, its location is first determined by looking at a bigger star beside it, then if one looks carefully one can see Arundhati close by.“Similarly, the madhyama-adhikari, although taking help from the senses and the language of the material world in describing the spiritual world, realizes and sees the aprakrta-tattva after having applied the anjana, ointment, of prema to the eyes of bhakti.” <o:p></o:p>
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Vrajanatha: What is the difference between Isvara and the jiva? <o:p></o:p>
Babaji: First you should understand the non-difference between Isvara and the jiva, and after that, I will explain their eternal difference. Isvara is the embodiment of knowledge (jnana-svarupa), the knower (jnata-svarupa), one who considers or reflects (mantasvarupa) and the enjoyer (bhoktr-svarupa). He is self-effulgent (svaprakasa) and He also illuminates others (para-prakasa). He has His own desires (iccha-maya), and He is the knower of all (ksetra-jna). The jiva, too, is the form of knowledge, the knower, and the enjoyer; he too, is self-effulgent, and he illuminates others; and he too, has desires, andis the knower of his own field (ksetra-jna). From this perspective, there is no difference between them.<o:p></o:p>
However, Isvara is omnipotent, and by dint of this omnipotence, He is the basis of all these qualities, which are present in Him in full. These qualities are also present in the atomic jiva, but only to a minute degree. Thus, the nature and form of Isvara and the jiva are eternally different from each other because one is complete and the other is minute; and at the same time, there is a lack of distinction between Isvara and the jiva because of the similarity between their qualities.<o:p></o:p>
Isvara is the Lord of svarupa-sakti, jiva-sakti and maya-sakti because of the completeness of the internal potency (atma-sakti). Sakti is His maidservant, and He is the Lord of sakti, who is activated by His desire; this is the svarupa of Isvara. Though the qualities of Isvara are present in the jiva to a minute degree, the jiva is nonetheless under the control of sakti.<o:p></o:p>
The word maya has been used in Dasa-mula not only to indicate material maya, but also to indicate svarupa-sakti. Miyate anaya iti maya, “Maya is that by which things can be measured.” The word maya refers to the sakti that illuminates Krsna’s identity in all the three worlds, namely, the cit-jagat, acit-jagat, and jiva-jagat. Krsna is the controller of maya and the jiva is under the control of maya. Therefore, it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (4.9-10):<o:p></o:p>
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Paramesvara is the Lord of maya, He has created the entire world wherein the jivas are bound in the illusion of material identification. It should be understood that maya is His prakrti, and He is Mahesvara, the controller of maya. This entire world is pervaded by His limbs.<o:p></o:p>
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In this mantra, the word mayi is used to indicate Krsna, the controller of maya, and prakrti is used to indicate the complete sakti. His great qualities and nature are the special characteristics of Isvara; they are not present in the jiva, and he cannot attain them, even after liberation. It is stated in Brahma-sutra (4.4.17), jagatvyapara- varjjam prakaranasannihitatvat, “The creation, maintenance and control of the entire transcendental and inert world is the work of brahma only, and no one else.” Except for this activity in relation to the cit and acit worlds, all other activities are possible for liberated jivas. The sruti states, yato va imani bhutani jayante (Taittiriya Upanisad 3.1): “He is that by which all the jivas are created and maintained, and into which they enter and become unmanifest at the time of annihilation.” These statements have only been made in relation to brahma, and they cannot be applied to the jiva by any amount of manipulation, because there is no reference to liberated jivas here. The sastras state that it is only Bhagavan, and not the liberated jiva, who performs activities of creation, maintenance and annihilation. One may suppose that the jiva can also perform these activities, but this gives rise to the philosophy of many isvaras (bahv-isvara-dosa), which is defective. Therefore, the correct siddhanta is that the jiva is not qualified for the above-mentioned activities, even when liberated.<o:p></o:p>
This establishes the eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara, and all learned people support this. This difference is not imaginary, but eternal; it does not disappear in any state of the jiva. Consequently, the statement that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna should be accepted as a fundamental statement (maha-vakya).

Vrajanatha: If one can only prove the eternal difference between Isvara and the jiva, how can one accept the oneness? Another point is that, if there is oneness, do we have to accept a state of merging with Isvara (nirvana)?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: No, not at all. The jiva is not one with Krsna at any stage.<o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: Then why have you spoken about acintya-bhedabheda (inconceivable oneness and difference)?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: From the qualitative perspective of cid-dharma, there is oneness between Krsna and the jivas, but from the quantitative perspective of their essential nature and individual personalities (svarupa), there is eternal difference between them. Despite the eternal oneness, it is the perception of difference that is eternally prominent. Though the abheda-svarupa is an accomplished fact, there is no indication that any such state has independent existence. Rather, it is the manifestation of nitya-bheda (eternal difference) that is always prominent. In other words, where eternal difference and eternal oneness are present simultaneously, the perception of bheda is stronger. For example, let us say the owner of a house is called Devadatta, his house is simultaneously a-devadatta (independent of Devadatta) and sa-devadatta (identified with Devadatta). Even though from some points of view it may be considered independent of Devadatta, still its specific characteristic of being identified with Devadatta eternally exists. Similarly, in the case of Isvara and the jivas, non-difference, or oneness, is not part of the essential identity, even at the stage of svarupa-siddhi, just as the house can be called both a-devadatta and sa-devadatta.From one perspective it may be viewed as a-devadatta, but still, the real identity is sa-devadatta.<o:p></o:p>
Let me give you another example from the material world. Sky is a material element, and there is also a basis for its existence, but even though the basis is present, only the sky is actually visible. Similarly, even within the abheda existence, the distinctive nityabheda, which is real, is found, and that is why nitya-bheda is the only definitive characteristic of the essential reality (vastu). <o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: Please explain the eternal nature of the jiva even more clearly.<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: The jiva is atomic consciousness and is endowed with the quality of knowledge and is described by the word aham (‘I’). Heis the enjoyer, the thinker, and the one who comprehends. The jiva has an eternal form which is very subtle. Just as the different parts of the gross body, the hands, legs, nose, eyes and so on combine to manifest a beautiful form when established in their respective places, similarly a very beautiful atomic spiritual body is manifest, which is composed of different spiritual parts. However, when the jiva is entangled in maya, that spiritual form is covered by two material bodies. One of these is called the subtle body (linga-sarira) and the other is called the gross body (sthulasarira). The subtle body, which is the first to cover the atomic spiritual body, is unavoidable (apariharya) from the beginning of the jiva’s conditioned state until his liberation. When the jiva transmigrates from one body to the next, the gross body changes, but the subtle body does not. Rather, as the jiva leaves the gross body, the subtle body carries all its karmas and desires to the next body. The jiva’s change of body and transmigration are carried out through the science of pancagni (the five fires) which is delineated in the Vedas. The system of pancagni, such as the funeral fire, the fire of digestion and rain, has been described in the Chandogya Upanisad and Brahma-sutra. The jiva’s conditioned nature in the new body is the result of the influences from his previous births, and this nature determines the varna in which he takes birth. After entering varnasrama, he begins to perform karma again, and when he dies, he repeats the same process. The first covering of the eternal spiritual form is the subtle body, and the second is the gross body.<o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: What is the difference between the eternal spiritual body and the subtle body?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: The eternal body is the actual, original body, and it is atomic, spiritual, and faultless. This is the real object of the ego – the real ‘I’. The subtle body arises from contact with matter, and it consists of three vitiated transformations, namely, of the mind, intelligence and ego.<o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: Are mind, intelligence, and ego material entities? If they are, how do they have the qualities of knowledge and activity?<o:p></o:p>
Babaji:<o:p></o:p>
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My separated eight-fold apara or maya-prakrti consists of the five gross elements – earth, water, fire, air and space – and the three subtle elements – mind, intelligence and false ego. Besides this, O mighty-armed Arjuna, I have a tatastha-prakrti, which can also be called para-prakrti (superior nature). That prakrti is in the form of consciousness, and the jivas. All the jivas who have manifested from this para-prakrti make the inert world full of consciousness. The jiva-sakti is called tatastha because it is eligible for both worlds; the spiritual world, which is manifest from My antaranga-sakti; and the material world, which is manifest from My bahriranga-sakti. <o:p></o:p>
Since all created entities are manifested from these two types of prakrti, you should know that I, Bhagavan, am the sole original cause of creation and destruction of all the worlds of the moving and non-moving beings.<o:p></o:p>
These slokas of Gita Upanisad describe the two types of prakrti of sarva-saktiman Bhagavan. One is called para-prakrti (the superior energy) and the other is called apara-prakrti (the inferior energy). They are also known as jiva-sakti and maya-sakti respectively. The jiva-sakti is called para-sakti, or srestha-sakti (the superior sakti), because it is full of spiritual atomic particles. The maya-sakti is called apara (inferior) because it is material and inert (jada).<o:p></o:p>
The jiva is a completely separate entity from the apara-sakti, which contains eight elements: the five gross elements – earth, water, fire, air, and space – and the three subtle elements mind, intelligence and ego. These last three material elements are special. The aspect of knowledge that is visible in them is material, and not spiritual. The mind creates a false world by basing its knowledge of sensual objects on the images and influences that it absorbs from gross subjects in the mundane realm. This process has its root in mundane matter, not in spirit. The faculty that relies on that knowledge to discriminate between real and unreal is called buddhi, which also has its root in mundane matter. The ego, or sense of ‘I-ness’ that is produced by accepting the above knowledge is also material, and not spiritual.<o:p></o:p>
These three faculties together manifest the jiva’s second form, which acts as the connection between the jiva and matter, and is called ‘the subtle body’ (linga-sarira). As the ego of the conditioned jiva’s subtle body becomes stronger, it covers the ego of his eternal form. The ego in the eternal nature in relationship to the spiritual sun, Krsna, is the eternal and pure ego, and this same ego manifests again in the liberated state. However, as long as the eternal body remains covered by the subtle body, the material self-conception (jada-abhimana) arising from the gross and subtle body remains strong, and consequently the abhimana of relation with spirit is almost absent. The linga-sarira is very fine, so that the function of the gross body covers it. Thus, identification with the caste and so on of the gross body arises in the subtle body because it is covered by the gross body. Although the three elements –mind, intelligence and ego – are material, the abhimana of knowledge is inherent in them because they are vitiated transformations of the function of the soul (atma-vrtti).<o:p></o:p>
Vrajanatha: I understand the eternal svarupa of the jiva to be spiritual and atomic in nature, and within that svarupa is a beautiful body composed of spiritual limbs. In the conditioned state, thatbeautiful spiritual body remains covered by the subtle body, and the material covering of the jiva-svarupa in the form of the jadasarira causes its material transformation (jada-vikara). Now, I want to know whether the jiva is completely faultless in the liberated state.<o:p></o:p>
Babaji: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the jiva’s spiritual form may be covered through association with the powerful maya-sakti.<o:p></o:p>
It is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.2.32),<o:p></o:p>
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O lotus-eyed Lord, non-devotees, such as the jnanis, yogis and renunciants, falsely consider themselves to be liberated, but their intelligence is not really pure because they lack devotion. They perform severe austerities and penances, and achieve what they imagine to be the liberated position, but they still fall from there into a very low condition due to neglecting Your lotus feet.<o:p></o:p>
This shows that the constitution of the jiva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jiva may achieve. That is the inherent nature of jiva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Isvara is the controller of maya, whereas the jiva remains eligable to be controlled of maya in all circumstances.<o:p></o:p>
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THUS ENDS THE FIFTEENTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA,<o:p></o:p>

“PRAMEYA: JIVA-TATTVA”

1) Vigraha is correct
2) Kula is ________. [deleted by Bhaktajan for brevity].
3) You guys just can't read thoroughly anyone's posting, without missing the main point!
4) And because guys just can't read thoroughly you miss what Srila Prabhupada has said on the topic---it's all over the Gita as-it-is without need of word jugglery! Read Srila Prabhupada's Gita and you'll find this point [as Vigraha has posted many times] will be found repeatedly!

5)

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NOTE: To me, the use of the name "newcomer" signifies that the shared rules for hanging out with the boys of Vrindavana must be re-learnt.<o:p></o:p>
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NOTE: To me, the use of the name "new recruit" signifies there are rules to be imparted and followed —that may or may not be known to the "new recruit" who was recruited by an outside agent.<o:p></o:p>
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And, this last term, "new recruit" seems to be a reiterated segue description used by the translator in this prose text [rather than the rendering of a Sanskrit shloka's word—I may be wrong here]

6) Just kidding about the Leonardo Man--Don't touch it, it's a classic meant for display and contemplation of the greater world below our feet.
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A projection, hologram, dreaming or telecasting thoughts to the mahat-tattva, whatever it takes to explain we are dreaming from our marginal identity thats full potential and permanant bodily identity(nitya-siddha) is in Goloka

This secondary self (nitya-baddha) is a living holographic countefeit projection of the living entity that enables one to enter the mahat-tattva, that is just as real as Vaikuntha, but temporary and always fades due to decay, and attempt to fulfil their dreams to achieve anything they want, hence, you can have anything, it just may take you a billion life times in the mahat-tattva to achieve it.

And then it fades and becomes as if it never was, just like an illusion, moving on again within the cycle of birth and death.

The majority of the marginal living entities or jivas, who are naturally ALL devotees of Krishna in their full potential, never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha to be compromised or covered by the selfish nitya baddha sub-conscious cloud or dream state that all living entities can activate, due to their unique free will and abilty to choose. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Such erroneous self centred desires and dreams only place them in the transitory mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The living entities natural constitution and perpetual position is serving Krishna, or one of His Vishnu tattva expansions in Goloka or Vaikuntha as nitya-siddha.<o:p></o:p>
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Therefore most marginal living entities do NOT allow themselves to be covered by non Krishna Conscious desires that manifest their baddha-jiva consciousness because their desire is to always put Krishna first by being absorbed in serving Him as nitya siddha. Such inconceivable statements are mind-boggling because how is it possible to calculate % of a % in an endless Spiritual creation?<o:p></o:p>
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So it is important to understand that ALL nitya-siddhas never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine, think or dream they do, BUT NEVER AS THEIR NITYA SIDDHA BODY THAT NEVER LEAVES GOLOKA. Most living entities therefore never enter the world of imagination (the mahat-tattva) and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.<o:p></o:p>
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Therefore it is only due to the cloud covering (the baddha-jiva dreaming sub-conscious state of the living entity) we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness.<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada often emphasized the dream-like quality of our mayik existence because it is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity as their secondary non Krishna Conscious jiva-baddha state. <o:p></o:p>
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Once we awakened to the real spiritual nature of our consciousness, which is eternally in Goloka as nitya-siddha, the dream-like mayik existence created by our baddha-jiva consciousness will dissolve like the sunlight dissipates the darkness<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada – 'So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada clearly says we in the material condition of existence, is just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. <o:p></o:p>
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There are two states of existence called nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The free state of is eternally in a Krishna Conscious bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self, while the non-free state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that creates the various dream identities. <o:p></o:p>
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The nitya-baddha state is only activated when the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to forget their perpetual original identity as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p>
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This eternal abode of Krishnas is beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the maha-tattva and is the genuine Kingdom of God way beyond the heavenly world within the mahat-tattva (material creation).<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse”. Lecture washington DC Temple 1976 <o:p></o:p>

How have we fallen in this material world? Acute attraction.



"There is a very good example, that some people, they keep that driti bird (falcon), and they are trained up to walk on the field and again come in the cage. So the master gives him the chance, “Now, get out. Come in the free field.” So if he likes, he can go away, fly away. But his attraction is so acute that after some times, walking on the field, again the master says, “Kit, kit, kit, kit.” Again he enters. He could fly away. This is a chance. Similarly, the mother material nature, or Durgā-devī… Durgā means the superintendent of this prison house, material, Durgā. Dur-gā: “You cannot go out.” That is called durgā. Durgā means fort also. Very difficult, dur-gā, to go out. So the superintendent is called Durgā. The mother Durgā is the superintendent of this material world. Sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā [Bs. 5.44]. Very powerful, she has got ten hands. Ten hands means ten direction: east, west, and north, south, and the four corners, eight, and up and down, ten direction, dik, daśa-dik. So she is watching all sides: “You cannot get out.” Therefore she is called Durgā-devī. Or this material world is called Devī-dhāma, “the place where the Devī, mother Durgā, is the superintendent.” Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī, māyā [Bg. 7.14]. She is called also Māyā, Daivī-māyā.
Māyā…, whose māyā? It is Kṛṣṇa’s māyā. Māyā means something wonderful, mystic. Or māyā means illusion. So many, there are meaning. Māyā means affection also. So some way or other, this Durgā-devī, Māyā, is Krishna’s māyā. Just like prison house. Prison house is also government house, but it is not as good as the government house. It is government… The proprietor is the government. It is looked after by the government. You can call it government house, but government house is different, rāja-bhavan. Similarly, everything belongs to Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam. Everything belongs to Him. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mama māyā. Mama māyā. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14]. That is creation of Krishna. It is necessary.
Somebody… The question is asked, “Why Kṛṣṇa created this material energy which is so miserable condition?” Duḥkhālayam aśāśvatam [Bg. 8.15] So it is not Krishna willingly created. But He gave the chance to the living entities who forgot Kṛṣṇa. He forgot Krishna’s service and wanted to enjoy this material world."

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.5
by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda
Bombay, December 17, 1974

By being ourselves fallen.

I like that the above.The following makes more sense than all the ramblings that we come from the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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<TABLE style="MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 0.75pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 0.75pt solid">Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. ". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
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Comment - All marginal living entities in Vaikuntha can project a hologram version of themselves known as the nitya-baddha consciousness to the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu where the baddha-jiva, described here as a holographic projection or extension of the marginal living entities sub-conscious thoughts and dreams, that imagine oneselves in a world without serving Krishna, and the perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form (who they really are ETERNALLY in Krishna Lila) they are dreaming and projecting all their selfish dreams from. Such nonsense dreams expressed as the baddha-jiva consciousness, are then given bodily vessels of mahat-tattva origin so they can live out their dreams as if they where real.

That holographic dream world creation is the mahat-tattva. However unlike the English meaning of the word hologram, than means an unreal illusion, this new meaning of the word hologram means it is very real, but temporary

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It is the duty of the guru to chastise and it is not up to others to imitate. If one mistakenly takes the strategy of being a chastiser and is not a realized soul then there is a price to pay, as a reaction to our offenses. Of course the principle reaction is that we will never become realized souls so long as we continue with our offenses.

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Originally Posted by Beggar It is the duty of the guru to chastise and it is not up to others to imitate.

So stop listening to the nonsense we came from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti. This offensive idea only pollute all new seekers of truth

Our eternal father Krishna, that we ALL long, long, long ago, had memories of always being with, is certainly not a clear bright impersonal light.

It is not only offensive to think that way, but also an insult to the personal form of Krishna that we are eternally with in OUR eternal nitya-siddha bodily form, that we have presently forgot

Amazing here we go again. I've really been trying to diffuse the animosity involved in the controversy over the origin of the soul, but I guess it's of no use. Some are just hell bent on offending maha bhagavatas, madhyama adhikaris and any kind of Vaisnava. Whatever statements are there in the scriptures and Prabhupada's writings and talks, NONE of them are meant to inspire persons to engage in religious politics, into which is what this always seems to degrade. Rather all these statements are there to inspire us to engage in Krsna's service. It's time to put all this infighting on the back burner and inspire ourselves and others in this way. But when we are addicted to external consciousness then we have no real taste or attraction we loose our merciful nature. Then we just want to damn devotees who see things in a different way as a way of avoiding looking at how we our wasting our lives without a real taste for Krsna Consciousness. This is how I spend most of my waking ours also, but just like we are not are bodies, we are also not our minds. It would seem that a mental approach to bhakti would be at least better than nothing, since we are engaging our mind. But without a real change of heart we will be deceived by our minds that we really know what Krsna Conciousness is, when it reality our chanting is full of the ten offenses to the holy name.

looks like the Moron-Express just pulled into the station.. :/

Our eternal father Krishna, that we ALL long, long, long ago, had memories of always being with, is certainly not a clear bright impersonal light.

It is not only offensive to think that way, but also an insult to the personal form of Krishna that we are eternally with in OUR eternal nitya-siddha bodily form, that we have presently forgot

When dogs bark, you don't bark with them

Ha! Such nonsense fear tactics of being called a moron were used to shut us up for years in the bogus version of ISKCON by the 'proud' so-called guru's and sanyasis of that 'cult' mentality time of imitators pretending to be a version Prabhupada <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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They also treated us like mushrooms by feeding our brains cow dung to keep us subservient, brain-dead and just do what we tell you to do and think what we tell you to think. In the same way –<o:p></o:p>
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Stop believing the nonsense from Sridar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaj we originate from a plain sheet of consciousness from the impersonal portion of the Brahmajyoti!!!!!!!!!!

or else I'll throw a tantrum

Actually both Sridhar Maharaj and Narayana Maharaja were always very tactful when dealing with Srila Prabhupada, which is not always true for the other side. Srila Prabhupada did not follow the teachings of his own guru and shastras when it came to the issue of the jiva's origin, that is quite obvious to everyone. Yet these two Vaishnavas did not criticize Prabhupada for that, chosing instead to attribute that departure from siddhanta to his particular "preaching strategy" aimed at Westerners. They put the best possible spin on this issue, in order not to shake the faith of Prabhupada's followers in their guru.

Srila Prabhupada was often extremely critical towards his godbrothers and as a direct result many of his disciples like your good self became Vaishnava-aparadhis. In their ignorance, they think this is a proper way to act. It is very embarassing to watch such displays.

For clarification of language - Moron: A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education.

Extremely apposite, Kulapavanaji. It is to be hoped that Svarupa is in possession of sufficient grey matter to understand and appreciate what you just wrote. I don't think we ought to bank on it, though.

Namaskar

What disgraceful envious nonsense!! PRABHUPADA WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO FOLLOWED HIS SPIRITUAL MASTERS ORDER!! As a result, you know about Krishna. His lazy Godbrothers could not understand the preaching mood of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Lord Caitanya.

It is obvious by some of the disrespectful OFFENSIVE comments like the above, there is a polarisation going on. It is now very clear, that not only do genuin devotees have to expose the envious mayavadis, but also those so-called Vaishnavas who have been cheated by the offensive members of the present day impersonally polluted Gaudiya math.
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It is therefore very clear, that ISKCON, even with all its pioneering faults or growing pains, is the ONLY bonafide representative of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. As Prabhupada said "None of my Godbrothers are qualified or fit to be GURUS"
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Sri Caitanya-caritamrita Madhya 22.10
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"Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens
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Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of Maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.”
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Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.
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Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva, which was existent prior to its contact with matter, is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]
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The jiva has chosen to forget that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna; for this fault Maya has tied him at the neck. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 44]
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“Jiva takes recourse to chit
i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha”
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But many cannot understand distinctly how karma has no beginning. Time pertaining to matter is only material reflection of chit-time and is a material thing suited to the performance of karma. Jiva takes recourse to chit i.e. transcendental everlasting time in Vaikuntha, where there is no past and future; only the present exists.
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When Jiva in bondage enters in material time [it] becomes subject to past, future and present and, being server of Trikala, suffers pleasure and pain.
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Material time originating from Chit kala and Chit kala having no beginning, the origin of Jiva’s Karma—i.e., aversion to God—is coming even prior to material time. Therefore judged impartially with regard to Jadakala, the root of Karma lies prior to this time and therefore Karma has been designated as Anadi, i.e. without any beginning. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam p. 158]
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The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarupa as servant of God. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 160]
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“When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna”
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This translation of the Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda Thakura quotes Lord Caitanya from Caitanya-caritamrta:
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The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krsna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-consciousness exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity.
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In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the selfish nitya-baddha conscious condition to exist.
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The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from his nitya-siddha body that has no beginning as it dates perpetually before his nitya-baddha manifestation within the mahat-tattva, divided time and space. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 8)
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Srila Prabhupada - "Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition". - Letter, June 13, 1970.
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Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." (Sri Isopanisad 11)
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Srila Prabhupada teaches us - "These spirit souls and ALL spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities". [letter to Jagadisa das, 1970]
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Srila Prabhupada: "So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. lecture Washington DC Temple 1976
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It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s Lila.
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By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements.
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The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s Lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna because his perpetual nitya-siddha bodily form is permanently in Goloka. In the same way, we are never out of GOLOKA, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere in the mahat-tattva or material impermanent creation.
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Srila Prabhupada clearly says here we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. (baddha jiva) And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position (nitya-siddha jiva).
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There are two conditions or states of consciousness, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha.
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The free state of consciousness is eternally in a bodily form and is called the nitya-siddha authentic self.
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The covered state is the nitya-baddha consciousness that is actually the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the marginal living entity that forgets their perpetual or endless nitya-siddha bodily self serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, beyond the restricted realm of divided time and space only found in the mahat-tattva.
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This Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness, known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is also a temporary dreaming dreamless state.
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In other words this Impersonal inactive condition of consciousness known as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti is the temporary dreaming dreamless state of the marginal living entity.
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In other words the free state (nitya-siddha) is perpetually with Krishna and the covered state (nitya-baddha) is with either Maha-Vishnu in the impermanent mahat-tattva (material creation), or merged as a dormant state of individual consciousness (only after going through mahat-tattva bodily vessels).
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This dormant characteristic of individual consciousness formulates their nitya-baddha perceptiveness appear like a ‘spark of effulgence’ that IS, along with other dormant nitya-baddha consciousnesses, the collective Impersonal feature we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.
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This is what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti really is – simply the marginal living entities inferior nitya-baddha consciousness existing in a dormant inactive dreamless state of individual awareness.
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The safest thing is to follow Srila Prabhupada.
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So somebody might say the Sastras and Acaryas say souls are eternally conditioned, but we can always say with complete confidence, yes, that might be true, yet at the same time it can also be said with equal confidence that such souls have forgotten their eternal service to Krishna and thus become conditioned.
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The way that the contradiction is resolved, is the way that Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, and others have done, by saying that the conditioning is called nitya, because it took effect outside material time, which is divided into past, present, and future.
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Everything said by Srila Prabhupada is completely in line with the parampara system.
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1. We can confidently say that the soul is constitutionally the eternal servant of Krishna. (Nitya-siddha)
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2. The jiva soul has minute independence. (That allows their nitya-baddha consciousness)
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3. The jiva soul, although eternally the servant of Krishna, is eternally jiva tatastha that is not a place or plain, but the position of the marginal living entity that means one can always choose between the Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva material energies (that can lead to a further choice of entering the dormant Brahman effulgence.
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4. The jiva soul that exercises its independence properly remains with Krishna.
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5. The jiva soul that misuses its independence is placed in the material world.
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6. Such conditioned souls can be said to be eternally conditioned, because the inner event that led to their conditioning took place outside the material time, with its divisions of past, present, and future, so originally all living entities are eternally nitya-siddha.
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"The Lord tells Uddhava that his question is unnecessary because the soul is never really bound by the material nature. It is simply an illusion to think that the material body, which is created by the influence of the three modes of material nature, is the self. Only due to such illusion does the living entity suffer, just as one experiences distress in a dream.
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Of course, material nature is not an illusion—it actually exists, just as the living entities also exist, both being potencies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
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It is the dream that he is a part of the material nature that constitutes the illusion of the living entity. Thus, the soul is never actually bound because his existence is always superior to that of matter”. Commentary (Srila Vishvanatha Cackravarti Thakur)
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Where there is light, darkness does not exist
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Similarly, when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.
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Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious.
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So it is due to the marginal living entitles non-Krishna conscious desires that ones secondary dreaming conscious characteristic of their marginal identity enters the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.
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This is made possible by ones choice to use their God given free will not to be with or remember Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha form or body.
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Such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness known as the nitya-baddha lower self’ to the temporary material manifestation known as the mahat-tattva, where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by Maha-Vishnu, the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming.
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Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:
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Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga



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'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.
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Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.
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We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka,
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We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation however; no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation.
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We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)
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Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia
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Question – “Could this mean as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, as the awareness of our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?”
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Answer – “Yes, through our Krishna Conscious endeavour and selfless humble service, even while we are so called 'eternally conditioned' (nitya-baddha consciousness), our pathway back home can begin.
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In this way while confined or trapped in our dreaming nitya-baddha comatose consciousness, we all have the opportunity to again re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha.
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This fullness of the marginal living entity is a transcendental body without beginning or end blossoming within the devotional personal pastimes of Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or Vishnu beyond mundane time and space.
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The mundane realm is outside the Personal active pastimes of Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. Such impermanence is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and also within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (Brahma-sayuyja etc).
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In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna”.
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Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Well agreed, but who would have entered a ship like the Jaladuta?