Dekhite Dekhite
Srilla Bhaktivinoda Thakura

dekhite dekhite, bhuliba va kabe, nija-sthula-paricaya
nayane heriba, vraja-pura-sobha, nitya cid-ananda-maya (1)

When I will forget my gross bodily identity, then I will behold the exquisite beauty of Vraja, full of eternal spiritual bliss and cognizance.

vsabhanu-pure, janama laiba, yavata vivaha ha’be
vraja-gopi…-bhava, haibe svabhava, ana bhava na rahibe (2)

I shall take birth in Vrsabhanu Maharaja’s town and will marry in the nearby village of Yavat. My sole disposition and nature will be that of a cowherd maiden.

nija-siddha-deha, nija-siddha-näma, nija-rupa sva-vasana
radha-krpa-bale, labhiba va kabe, krsna-prema-prakarana (3)

When will I obtain, by the power of Radha's mercy, my own eternal spiritual body,my own realized name and dress embellishing my real form? And when will I receive initiation into the techniques of expressing divine love for Krsna?

yamuna-salila-aharane giya, bujhibo yugala-rasa
prema-mugdha ha’ye, pagalini-paya, gaiba radhara yasa (4)

As I go to draw water from the Yamuna, I will understand the confidential mellows of Yugala-Kisora’s loving affairs. Being captivated by prema, I will sing Radhika’s glories just like a madwoman.

You already have and always have had a nitya-siddha body, that is fixed in Goloka. The process is regaing memory of who you really are, from whence you are dreaming this material world
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence (the ability to choose) as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence". 67-08-27. Letter: Jananivasa
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Srila Prabhupada - "All tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krishna, and that will be realised when one is liberated.
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Hansadutta: So that's fixed already.
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krishna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krishna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?
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Hansadutta: I see.
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita. Why don't you see?
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Hansadutta: And Nectar of Devotion.
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krishna is the best."
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Hansadutta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some--
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.
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Srila Prabhupada – ‘Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve Krishna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krishna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur
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Foremost is the soul, then the intelligence, then the mind, & the least the body. Some of as here may have reached the soul level, others the intelligence level, while the rest in the mental and physical levels. If you have finally realized you`re soul then you are liberated. Because many have died not knowing they are still situated in the intelligence level or mental level. In the soul level one does not come back to the material world whereas in the intelligence and mental levels they acquire again material bodies after death.

Quote:

..When will I

The problems of translating into a mundane language based on a material time conception are seen in this verse translation. How could one obtain what they already have, "my own eternal spiritual body" and "my own realized name?" Thus we go around and around in circles chasing our own tail, quibling about words.

While meditating under a tree, Narada Muni realized he is simultaneously different from Krsna and yet he feels the Lord and he are one. This is the characteristic of a self-realized soul.

The difficulty with this conversation is the notion of time and form. Mahaprabhu has stated: jiver swarup haya nitya krishna das
krishner tatastha shakti bhedabhed prakas.
Our swarup is Krishna Das and we are tatastha shakti. Will you uncover your true nature or discover your true nature? Even though the two words are close in meaning they are generally accepted to be subtley different.

Both are true ontologically, simultaneously, inconceivably one and different. But the experience of meeting Krsna is always like finding a long lost friend and the experience of His abode is one of returning home. What are we really interested in? Theoretical knowledge of every aspect of Reality or the direct experience of Reality.

You carefully steer clear of the direct controversy (at least in this immediate thread, in others I don't know) of whether the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion or not. Does this issue fall under "theoretical knowledge"? In geometry, we are taught that the slightest variation in trajectories will lead to an exponential increase in the difference of two destinations.

Can you still remember what you did when you were an infant? Of course not. But certainly you laughed at the stimulus, " cuchi cuchi co, " when your parents toyed with you and cried when you wanted something. My point here is that Narada Muni considered his awakened state and the corresponding motions he made as unreal while the things that he did in the dreaming state as real.

You may dream you are a big King or a humble beggar, but when you wake up, you regain the memory of your present body - like that as Prabhupada would say

It is indeed incorrect to state that "the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion." Yet, from the angle of vision of "the present moment", it may be said that the fallen jiva is not really "fallen" but is merely "dreaming" going from one material body to another. These are different angles of vision. I do not believe that Sarva gattah has properly harmonized these two angles of vision. All the acaryas accept both. The bottom line is to understand that the eternal parishads of Krsna never fall down; And this is true although some free will exists for all souls. Such eternal parishads servitors always remain in the realm where Maha Maya's illusory powers cannot exist.

There is no past or future IN Goloka, only the present, then we are all in a perpetual state of originality. Remember, the living entity leaves Goloka not as ones eternal svarupa body, but via their sub-conscious dream, thought and imagination.

Im this way, just as ones material body never changes while one is dreaming they are a King, ones ‘svarupa’ body never changes while one is living out their dreams in the material world.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is fixed, eternally established and secured perpetually within the ‘eternal present, which is an eternal state of 'originality’ that has no past and future. This means when one finishes their dreams within the material world and again become ‘aware’ of their full potential ‘svarupa body, it is like waking up from a dream and finding themselves as the body they always were and always have been. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada explains it this way –“There is nothing to be gained in Goloka, only regained” <o:p></o:p><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

In relation to the Material World, there is no time is the Spiritual World - no material time with its birth, death disease and old age. But just like there is spiritual sex-life there, so there is spiritual time. It is said that Srimati Radharani worshiped the time when She was with Krsna. Spiritual time is within the realm of Yoga Maya whereas material time is within the realm of
Maha Maya. Yet it is said by the acaryas that there is really only one Maya or energy and that energy has different functions. So all these ideas represent the duality of our present dream-like illusory existence and what exists beyond the maya jala or veil of illusion in the present moment. The proper harmony between these two dualities - the Krsna Conscious view from our present, relative existence or the Krsna Conscious view from eternity has been given by the Six Goswamis and their followers and is known as Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta. In this siddhanta these opposites have been explained, so that future practitioners would have a guideline on how to think about these things in a favorable manner. It is never favorable for a practioner in this world (or dreaming that one is in this world) to view onself on the level of the nitya-siddha, eternal servitors of the Lord who are infallable or never fall down. It is like-wise unfavorable to think that such parishad devotees would ever even dream of leaving their rasik seva to Sri Krsna. Even if one can develop their own logic based on the reality of the "Present Moment" and come up with opposite conclusions to proper siddhanta it is really meaningless. We are discussing a topic which is far beyond the logic and reason of our "puppy brains". Without proper siddhanta there cannot be proper sambandha jnana, knowing what is what in relation to Krsna. Srila Narayana Maharaja has said that without real sambandha jnana our sadhana will not have much of an effect.

ours own desire to be here.......thats why we are here and now................
everyone is the creator of his destiny......its true

This issue seems very much related to sambandha jnana

yeah, think so too. these are foundations to build sadhana upon. the foundations enter our heart and color it, bringing forward subtle nuances in realization...these nuances if cultivated in bhajan, eventually open the door to rasa (our true position in relationship). rather than just technical dogma in itself. instead, the bhajan becomes an intimate affair in our consciousness - krsna consciousness. our guru-marga knows this well..

I don't know but it is an insane asylum here for the most part. Beam me up Scotty!

This interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statements seems to say that actually we are in lila but that we have a dream to be an exploiter and we are trying to act upon it.

Would this understanding incorporate the same sadhanas to "wake up" as the other understanding would incorporate to achieve the prayojana? Basically, we have a formula as follows. I am at Point A (sambandha), I want to get to Point B (prayojana), the path I need to travel is Line X (abhideya).

So what is the prayojana? What is the nature of that prayojana? Is it one in which we are not saturated with prema in which every word is a song, every step is a dance, every stone is cintamani, every tree is wish fulfilling, every cow is surabhi. I can only begin to wonder what every dream is... OOOOPS It is a miserable dream in which we suffer endlessly. (Sounds like a little salt fell in the sweet rice.) What incentive would there be for anyone to develop bhakti if they are under the impression they have it already, just that they need to wake up. The analogy of a dream can be misleading in that one must assume they will wake up from a dream with no special endeavor.

I'm sure Sarvah and Theist will likely qualify their analogies with need for sadhana and bhakti but this is an unnatural "argument". Afterall, I know that when I fall asleep I will wake up with no extra endeavor.

The Glory of Vaikuntha is in its Perfection. Even the Goswamis in their prakata forms slept very little and while sleeping, dreamt only of their Istha Devatas. They cursed their eyelids for even blinking. One would think that taking the most worshipable place as of utmost importance one would not be able to tolerate the thought of its fallibility in that regard, nor tolerate the notion that they themselves could forget Rasaraj/Mahabhava for even a moment. This mood is given authority by our Goswamis and Mahaprabhu.

The material DREAM is the insane asylum and so is scotty

The following is concluding confirmation, as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that all jiva/souls are originally existing perpetually in their full devotional bodily form, which is the full potential and expression of all marginal living beings, that are all enclosed by the eternal ‘present’ of time and space within Gods eternal Kingdom known as Goloka Vrndavana or Krsnaloka.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Within that perpetual world, all living entities are perpetually existing, which means they are always present there as their bodily (vigraha) svarupa (devotional personality) form, that is an eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna. Therefore the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.<o:p></o:p>
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“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia<o:p></o:p>
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No one like a cowherd boy, lays down and sleeps in Goloka, then dreams they are in the material world. No, it is not like that. <o:p></o:p>
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WHY??<o:p></o:p>
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The cow herd boy laying down sleeping and then dreams, in no way represents how the living entity comes down 'sub-consciously' from their perpetual nitya-siddha body to the material creation as their baddha-jiva dreaming conscious state. <o:p></o:p>
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Actually because of the ‘concept of time’ there is really no two states of consciousness which means there is really no sub conscious secondary self, even though it is explained that way. Within the 'eternal presents' there is only one 'concept of time' and 'one eternal nitya siddha form of each marginal living being' that is eternally present in Goloka or Krsnaloka.<o:p></o:p>
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What is really going on is to do with time, the time that separates the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p>
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This sentence is very important to understand.<o:p></o:p>
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There is no 'laying down sleeping in Vaikuntha or Goloka, and then dreaming' ones material existence, it is not like that.<o:p></o:p>
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What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire and imaginations happen on the sub conscious level out of sync with the 'eternal present' that is eternally existent in Goloka. <o:p></o:p>
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Therefore the ONLY thing that happens is that the living entity leaves the spiritual Vaikuntha atmosphere of eternal time that is devoid of past and future. <o:p></o:p>
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The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time. That restricted state of awareness, due to the living entities alertness being out of sync with ones natural environment of the ‘perpetual present in Krsna-loka, then enters the divided time of past, present and future of the mahat-tattva.<o:p></o:p>
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The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'<o:p></o:p>
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What’s more is, it's almost as if the awareness of the living entities nitya siddha body is suspended (at least to those who have fallen) but actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of 'eternal time' in relation to 'divided time' - hence it is not a division of consciousness ,but rather a division of time.<o:p></o:p>
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In this way it is incorrect to think a nitya-siddha devotee lays down and sleeps and dreams their baddha-jiva material existence, no it is not like that.<o:p></o:p>
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Actually when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dream state never existed. On return to the 'eternal present' it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.<o:p></o:p>
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FALLING TO THE MATERIAL WORLD<o:p></o:p>
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For a living entity to transmigrate through the lower species to again reach the human body, means the living entity has FIRST chosen to fall down previously, long, long, long ago from Vaikuntha, as their secondary lower baddha-jiva consciousness to the heavenly planets, then further to the middle planets, then the hellish planets and the then to lower species of biological life. Some also take shelter in the dormant aspect of their own Brahman baddha-jiva consciousness that, along with other nitya-baddha souls, is a collective of souls known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of their individual Brahman or nitya-siddha consciousness however, that 'inactive' state of individual consciousness is also temporary and one falls down from there again to the mahat-tattva or material creation to the enclosure of ethereal and biological vessels.<o:p></o:p>
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Unfortunately many foolishly believe that this impersonal Brahmajyoti is their origin, but it is really just another dream state (A DREAMLESS DREAM IN THIS CASE) of the baddha-jiva.<o:p></o:p>
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Its the way that Sarva gattah describes all this that is clumsy and therefore apasiddhantic. But he is really trying to describe a very deep truth; he just doesn't properly harmonize the logical contradictions. The mistake that those on the opposite end of the spectrum (on this is issue) sometimes make is to polarize the issue to the extreme, which I believe that I once was guilty of.
In one Western Math I am familiar with, they never talk about, "forgeting Krsna" or "how our material existence" IS a dream and are quick to point out that we were never with Krsna. They also are trying to describe a very deep truth in a clumsy way, but although it appears they are in harmony with siddhanta they neglect a signficant area of the transcedental ontology, unlike their gurus who for some reason they can no longer properly hear. One side is falling off the razors edge to the right and the other side is falling off to the left (and I am not refering to left-wing gopis, here). We are all falling off the razors edge of pure devotional service without any tinge of selfish desires. So this really needs to be the focus. How can we move towards this goal, that was really Srila Prabhupada's focus and the focus of all bonafide acaryas. But in our present dream-like state, we find such a topic to be boring. I know that I do. Who wants to really admit all the dirty, unwanted things in our polluted hearts. And maybe that's why we really don't have much interest in Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas.