Is Lord Shiva a demi-god? - Page 19

hindustani · 07-15-2008, 02:35 AM

Very well Said Ashokji,if any sence prevails one should stop arguing in this thread else like what you have mentioned will sure going to happen.Let's leave them on their fate,we tried our best in the most polite and practical way but we cannot change the fortune,I rest my case here in this thread.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 03:01 AM

dear asoka,
The vedas are 'apaurusheya'.They HAVE NT BEEN WRITTEN BY ANY1.The vedic knwldge is eternal.It is nt mutilated,interpolated in any way.Simply becoz the vedas r so holy 4 the hindus that they CANNOT dare to change them.
Also,the vedas folow 'paroksh vaad'.
At 1 plce,the ved wil say 1 thing and then a cmpletely difrnt thing elsewhere.Vedvyas declared,''oh humans,do not read the vedas! Vidhi(lord brahma) couldnt understand them,so u wil only ruin ur intelligence by trying to read them.''
At another place vedvyas says that the ved is bhagvad swarup and only the vedas knw brahm.
So hw are these pple quoting profusely frm the vedas ?...is the real question v shud be asking.
Its ok till 1 point,bt then 1 smarta 'thinks' that 1 veda mantra was smething difrent originally and he declares that another sect has manipulated the veda .He is clearly applying his material intellect to the subject.YOU CANNOT SPECULATE IN MATTERS OF THE VEDAS ! The knwledge of the vedas emerged when the 1st purusha incarnation exaled.It is Brahm-shvas.The knwledge is divine.It has to be understood via a realisd mahatma.Kshotriya Brahm nisht mahapurush.

Eg...suta gosvami taught maharaj parikshit.
Narada taught veda vyas.

Ravindran Kesavan · 07-15-2008, 03:05 AM

Washing one face of Vishnu and spiting on his other face.

Hi Supercow,

Are you originally a cristian? I am curious to know because cristians have the same prejudice towards snakes , as you , as snake has a evil connotation in that religion. (Satan came as a serpant to corrept Eve) I have met Cristisans who showed this prejudised negative reaction to live snakes. They think snakes are evil creatures.

In Hinduism there is no such negative connotation. Snake is a holy symbol. Kundalini Shakti , which is a spiritual energy, is represented as a snake. Hindus Worship Snake.

Hence wearing a snake is not some thing negative or evil in Hinduism It is the most holy thing .

Even if you are not a Cristian , you still could havev other sourses of prejudices. You could have acquired from prejudiced stories and movies.
Star war and other such movies are made by cristians who fundamentally think that all other religions and gods are satanic in any case.

Your feeling that Siva is evil is completely a wrong prejudiced view. He is just the Opposite. He is the Good principle incarnet. The word meaning of 'Siva' in sancrit, is Auspiciousness, Good. He is a destroyer of all evils.
Rudra is highly adored in Veda.

I dont know which god you worship now? But assuming you are now a Vishnavate, note Krishna has a viswarupa form - (Universal form - shown to Arjuna) In that form he has ananda (infinite) heads ( some consider it to be be 1000 head, but technically ananda is infinity not thousand). Every god's face appears as a face of krisna in this form. One of the head is Siva's head.
Hence worshiping Vishnu and dispising Siva - or any other god for that matter - is equivlant of doing abhishaka (wahing with pure holy water) Vishnus one face while spitting on Vishnu's other face.

Dont foolishly hope for your salvation for you with that kind of act of Spiting on one face of Vishnu.

Here is the dictum form "horse mouth" on this issue:

Siva Ninda is the greatest sin. There is no salvation for any one who commits it even by million and millions of yagas, and other meritorious deeds. Vishnu will not grace that fool even if such a fool worship Vishnu for ananda kalpa ( infinite Kalpas) . Ignorance is no escuse for such a grave sin.
- Hayagriva upadesa sutra.

(Hayagriva is one of visnu's form with a horse head - a teacher incornate).

K.Ravindran

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 03:25 AM

hey,the guy who just wrote the post b4 ashok...A-M-Azing ! ! !
I personaly cudnt hav put words in even close to what u hav done...unless,the gr8 god rudra replies along the lines of acepting Sri purusha sukta as it is,i dnt think u shud take him seriously.
Although i am nt an iskcon folower,i dnt knw why u shud say that no
1 cares bout iskcon.I hav all the reverence in the world 4 srila prabhupad....he's 1 of the nitya siddhas.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 03:31 AM

in the previous post i meant to say,
''u shud NOT take him seriously.''
And supercrow,come on...grow up...by offending param bhagvata,lord shiva,ur only bringing ur own demise...its actualy vrv sad 4 vaishnavas.they smetimes unitentionaly ofend shiva and so do shaivites ofend vishnu.Bt bhagvan Himself states that He may 4giv ofense at His holy feet bt nt against His bhakta...v r doomed,oh vaishnav brethren..lol.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 03:40 AM

theres 1 litle snag i came across...shiva shakti are jeevas..?
Thats seriously a tad bit stretching of the reality.
Shiva or shankar or i dnt knw wich 1 is definitely nt jiva tattva...There is the mahesa dham beyond the material jagat,mahat...Shiva is the embodiment of qualites which cme to bout 86% of divinity.lord Brahma is 74%.so also are jeevas,bt their qualities are suppresed...Sri Narayana ? Do u hav to ask -96%.
100% is who ? Govinda of course.
Note percentage implies presence of qualities.This doesnt mean that Sri narayana is less powerful.He just doesnt display those powers(e.g. Display of Leela ).Just as Brhamjyoti doesnt display any power at all.Only Satta is there.Brahmjyoti is udaaseen...it doesnt do anything..

Amlesh · 07-15-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matarisvan

ramanujacharya [jagadguru]
prabhupada[1000 jagadgurus]

prabhupada is 1000 times better than ramanujacharya? please provide some data to support this. your personal sentiment is not acceptable data.

He didn't mean that, you've perceived it in some other way. Your comparative mechanism is wrong.

There won't be any further addition on my behalf, I know you are intelligent to draw the right meaning.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 03:53 AM

it is the same tattva
Brahm-paramatma-bhagvan.

Read.
The spiritual effulgence emanating frm lord Govinda-
Sri Narayana in the superexcellent vaikunthas-
Sri Shyamsundara.

All 3 are indifferent.But due to retention or display of sme powers,they appear different.
Brahm doesnt display aishwarya or leela madhurya.
Vaikunthas dont enshrine leela madhurya.They hav opulence.grandeur.
Goloka displays the ultimate form of madhurya rasa...eg...the rasa displayd by gopis of vraja...Shankara pleaded his wife to dress him up as a gopi and take him to rasa lila.Parvati relented and thus shiva is cald as gopesvara...he was so anxious to becme a gopi,..becoz thats the highest,unimaginable state of love of Godhead...
Lord Govinda had a good chuckle at the bearded 'gopi' bt obviously aceptd him in the lila.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 04:02 AM

thank u amlesh 4 putting words frm my mind in ur post..,
Jai siya Ram...
Tulsidas gosvami says,
Taraee na !Bin Seye mam swami..
Ram namami namami namami.

Its my challenge,gosvami says,that NO ONE can cross the material ocean of birth and death without serving his master,Sri Ramacandra.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 04:05 AM

he further describes Parabhramn,
''Ram hai naam tumhar,
Vachan agochar buddhi para...
Binu hari bhajan na bhav tareeya,
Yeh siddhant apela.''
That brahmn's name is Sri Ram.He is BEYOND your buddhi ! Do nt try to understand Him with ur intellect !

Ravindran Kesavan · 07-15-2008, 04:08 AM

Hi All,
Sigmund Freud has an excellent observation to make on love. Which throughs light on what is happening on this forum.

If some one is in love the thing they love is blotted out of proposion. The object on which libido is cathexed (invested) swells. This observation can easily be verified with people in love. For a man who is in love his beloved is a beauty quin and an angel . But for all others she is very ordinary and even ugly, and very ordinary in morals too -nothing angelic. A women who loves a man describes him to be very special , very intellegent - an Einstin, but for all others he ramain to be very ordinary and foolish even.

This is the alchemy of love. It blots the object.

You all must have heard the story of Laila and Majunu? For Majunu Laila was the most beautiful women - (Actually she was supposed to be ugly) .

There is another story of Agbar and Birbal which demonstrates this principle:
Once Agbar and Birbal were taking a strole in the busy market place, where they found a women weeping and pleeding for help. Akbar asked what was the matter . The women said that she lost her baby in the crowd. She pledded to find her baby. Akbar asked for the description of the child . She described it part by part vividly. It turned out to be a stunningly beautiful baby - extreemly good looking. Then akbar asked his attendends to search for such a baby. Every body failed to locate her baby. there was no baby of the discription in the whole market place. Then birbal took up ther task himself and soon returned with a very ugly and dirty child, and gave it to the women She was on the top of the world - very happy and started fondling that very ugly and dirty child with superlative attributes.

Akbar was very purplexed . "She said it is a very beautiful baby but is is quite opposite in reality" how did you know that it is her baby? and how come she is giving false discription al the first place?". Birbal explained "My lord, For a crow its own baby is a golden baby". For a mother her own baby is very beautiful - the best.

There is another mechanism of love that Siogmund Freud reports. Libido is a limited energy and obeys the law of conservation. that is if a full amount of libidinal energy is to be cathexed on an object, then the energy must be withdrawn from elsewhere where it was previously cathexed, owing to limited and finate energy available. It is not possible to love equally every thing . Love energy is is not infinate, but finate. (this is called the economic principle of libido) This also can be easily verified . those who fell in love some time in ther llife can easily validate this truth. Recall when you fell in love with a person of opposite sex. If you introspect you would notice that at the same time you fell in love, your love towerds the previous people whome you loved before - like parrends or friends -reduced. They became less significant for you.

Love energy is limited. If you love one thing then that love must be withdrawn from other things.

This two laws of will explain what is happening in this forum. Vishnavite think their god is the greatest - (swelling of the amorous obljct ) - every religion thinks that way. Jews think YHVH or Adoni is the greatest and only god worthy of worship. Muslims think the same about Allah. Visnavite's demotion of all other gods as demigod status is the natural consiquence of the withdrawing of their libido from all other gods to place it on Vishnu. this is the same reaspon that many religions are prejudicied against other religions.

It is the sign of love sickness . This is the problem of every lover. Love is blind after all. Dont give too much importance than what it deserves.

Of course serious form of prejudices which are distructive in nature cannot be tollerated as that could lead to religious war and bloodshed . Earth has witnessed it before. We cannot allow our civilised and spiritual existence to be regressed to that kind of degradation.

Regards,
K.Ravindran

Amlesh · 07-15-2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ranjeetmore

thank u amlesh 4 putting words frm my mind in ur post..,
Jai siya Ram...
Tulsidas gosvami says,
Taraee na !Bin Seye mam swami..
Ram namami namami namami.

Its my challenge,gosvami says,that NO ONE can cross the material ocean of birth and death without serving his master,Sri Ramacandra.

Satya Vachan.

It's truth to the highest perfection.

What you've said is the ultimate conclusion, to know it is something great, to experience it even greater, and to be His servant, we need his grace and the grace of his nears and dears.

Any words against Shiva will be taken into account by Sri Ram... Confirmed by Goswami Tulsidas.

"One cannot attain my grace, if there is despise for Shiva."

The same is for Shiva when Ram is not shown respect.

Jai Sita Ram.
Jai Sri Hanuman

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 04:16 AM

and gr8 god rudra,hav u forgotten Lord Hanuman ? His service to Sri Bhagvan ? How he ripped his chest to show that he saw the entire world as Seeta Ram ?
Tulsidas describes how his spiritual master,Hanuman would simply see Sita Ram in every atom ! Hanuman wasnt hallucinating.he was seeing Godhead in His paramatma feature.evrywhere ! This is how he cud kill crores of pple.Tulsidas writes a beautiful verse in this regard.
And hanuman is nitya siddha.He is 4ever a servant of the Supreme lord.He is an incarnation of lord Shiva.You very well describe how the various incarnations worshipd lord Shiva.Apart frm being a leela of the Lord,did any of these incarnations tear their chest with yogmaya ?
Did any of these leave their wives,like lord shiva left sati,coz she was hindering his devotional process toward lord Ramachandra ? No.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 04:30 AM

keshavan,u you seek refuge in a empiric speculator's philosophy?..
I challenge sigmund freud's philosophy.
Love is never blind.You love sme1 becoz he/she gives you happiness..If ur mother wer to slap u today,wud u go and kiss her on the cheeks ? There is no unconditional love.And there is nothing cald as love energy.It is non existent,nt to say it is limited.When u r attachd to a person,u cal it love.Why this attachment? Bcoz that person gives u joy in return of happiness.Giv and take.Shaivites 'love' Rudra,shiva coz they see the destructive nature of the deity and r attractd to it.After all,tamo guni pple lik destruction.Similarly,pple 'love' other deities 4 their own beliefs.If that deity fits in that person's way of thinking,he is immediately attractd.But a certain handful of pple come across genuine mahatmas and the mahatma explains who is jeeva,brahm and maya.Nw that the persn knws who he is and what is his goal(brahm),he wil obviously work towards that goal. E.g...the followers of the 4 sampradayas.

Dark Warrior · 07-15-2008, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Vishnavite think their god is the greatest - (swelling of the amorous obljct ) - every religion thinks that way. Jews think YHVH or Adoni is the greatest and only god worthy of worship. Muslims think the same about Allah. Visnavite's demotion of all other gods as demigod status is the natural consiquence of the withdrawing of their libido from all other gods to place it on Vishnu. this is the same reaspon that many religions are prejudicied against other religions.

It is the sign of love sickness . This is the problem of every lover. Love is blind after all. Dont give too much importance than what it deserves.

Sigmond Freud, Akbar and Birbal, etc. are quite irrelevant to the discussion.

Vaishnavas are Vaidikas, ie, those who follow the Vedas perfectly. If you do not have a pramana to refute the Vedic stance of Vishnu being Supreme, then do not post irrelevant banter.

And Ranjeetmore, please stop posting. In truth, you are not helping either Vaishnavism or Shaivism with your posts.

ranjeetmore · 07-15-2008, 04:41 AM

the mahatma explains,with the help of the ved,shastras,that jeeva is an ansh of jeeva vishisht brahm and being so,his goal is Ananda/brahm.
How to achieve ananda/brahm ?
The genuine mahatma says that witout the mercy of Brahm,maya cant be eliminatd and thus bhagvad jnyan cant be attained.
How to attain mercy of Bhagvan ?
By devotional service cald bhakti.
Any other process or way of thinking is just a concoction becoz Sri Bhagwan Himself confesses to Uddhav paramhamsa,that His 'vaani' i.e. 'Ved vaani' is meant to only point towards Him.Nothing else is given in the vedas,than the knwledge of Bhagwan.
Uddhav then enquires how so many beliefs and philosophies came about ?
Sri Bhagwan said,my ved vaani is transcendental,unfathomable.These pple took my vedic knwledge,twisted it and convertd it to for their own gain.Some were sattvic,some rajasic and others were tamasic.Depending on their nature,they took out the meaning of my transcendental knwledge in their own way.Thats y there are so many difrnt ways of religion

Ravindran Kesavan · 07-15-2008, 05:33 AM

Dear Dark warrior,
Freud's theory , and Akbar-birbal stories , are not irrelevent for explaining human behaviour. They are very pertnant to throw light on how people behave. I am only using them to throw light on what is happening to the quality of the discussion in this so called spiritual forum. Rather than declaring my line of argument irrelevent show me with your rational argument how this is irrelevent and not applicasble to the behaviour of people in this forum. Geting angry is hardly the way of a discussion. Argue out your case man.

If you claim to follow vedas perfectly then do that perfectly. then you should be propounding Indra as the greatest god Every other are demigods.

Shall we have a desent discussion on Veda? A true true Vedic discussion. I am ready for that stuff. No freud, no Akbar nothing else othewrthan the Veda. Are you ready? Only Veda .No purana and all that stuff.

Ravindran