For a long time I have heard some explanations about the nature of the atma, and a doubt come to my mind.

What is the logical explanation about the position of the atma in worms ...

Because if you cut the worm in two the material body continues with movement, and apparently life. ??? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

There are myriads of ways to ask this same question - here's another example just to illustrate the point:

How can we understand the culturing of cells outside the human body and the immortilization of some of the cancer cell lines?

The answer to this question is that wherever there is life there is spirit, or atman.

So, if the individual cell has all the characteristics of life - birth, growth, generating by products, dwindling, death - obviously the atman is present.

The basic issue for spiritualists is to understand the definition of life - spirit. Without spirit then matter will not be animated. So in the example of the worm - since both halfs go on to live and reproduce as individuals it is quite obvious that each body is animated by an atman.

Your question may be - how did the atman get there if there was only one atman prior to division and now there are two?

These are interesting theological questions and I suppose they would pose as stumbling blocks to some people whose faith is weak and tender and who need to have logical answers to everything.

Life is mysterious both to the scientist and the spiritualist. Even the best of metanarratives will not be able to adequately explain everything.

I work as a biochemist and have had plenty of time to ponder such questions. My feeling is that any cell that reproduces does so because it has life - not just the biochemical machinery to enable it to do so. That view is at odds with the general scientifiic community who understand cellular processes as chemical processes that don't require an atman to function.

What we are really talking about is consciousness. Without consciousness matter will not be animated. Just like your computer will not funtion without the required electricity.

As far as the bifurcating of a worm and how both halves can continue to live, I would like to make a contribution to the discussion.

When a worm is cut in half, the non-atman containing half continues to show signs of life due to the nervous reflexes of electrical energy in the nervous system of the invalid half. But, because this half of the worm has all the prerequisites for sustaining life, a jivatama quickly finds this situation as being conducive and supportive of life and moves in to make this his body.

The Paramatma is an unlimited source of life and energy and as such is constantly emitting jivatmas much in the same way that a light bulb emits light particles or the Sun emits light particles. As such there is an endless supply of unlimited jivas seeking to take form in the material energy.

As the subjetive evolution of the soul is always in progress, there is always a jiva waiting in the wings to take his body in the evolutionary stage of a worm. As such, when a worm is cut in half, a jiva is placed in that body by the material energy under the supervision of the Paramatma, according to the laws of nature governing the worm species.

This is the best explanation I can find according to the general principles of subjective evolution and the laws of material nature as they are carried out under the supervision of Paramatma.

I don't like to see these complicated questions go unanswered properly when a sincerely curious person wants answers.

A piece of string in half. See what happens. lol.

the sleeping souls are everywhere, and they are not limited by material space and time. when a suitable body becomes available (such as separated half of a worm's body), one of such sleeping souls is awakened to consciousness. bacterias and micro-organisms in general, routinely reproduce by sidelong division. that is as common process as it gets in nature.

In the Vedanta Sutra there is a discussion about different types of beings. The discussion looks at the fact that not all beings are born from other living beings. For instance, Draupadi was born from a fire, a rishi was born from water in a pot, and insects such as gnats are seen to emerge from water (in the old days people believed insects were born directly from water, not from microscopic eggs). The Vedanta says that beings born from water such as mozzies are in the same category as plants, which produce new plants by bifurcation, such as when you take a piece of bamboo and grow a new bamboo cluster from it.

So, a worm bifurcates just like a plant "cutting" that you grow in your garden. Where does the soul come from? According to the Bhagavad gita (and science) there are souls everywhere, such as amoeba and germs. A sperm cell can evolve quickly from a tadpole shape to an egg shape and then into a human shape in the space of about 100 days. So what is so surprising about a worm that can become two worms by bifurcation?

awesome reply...i am a biologist too, and have struggled to understand this...your reply is a good way to put things in perspective!

With this:

When you get a plant, you can plant this [somewhere else] in your Garden. The point I was thinking also is, if I cut my hand of it's dead. So to analize this, and the worm part, I'd say for me the conclusion is souls exsist everywhere [Gita]. So of-cource they can adapt [they have to!]. Thx a lot for this thread hehe.

I have read that some yogis could be in two bodies at one time. What happened to the soul then? Did the same soul exist in both the bodies?

the other body of a yogi (and there can be several) is controlled by the same soul. these other bodies are actually an illusion, yet they seem very physical to others. they are often manifested only when the yogi in his original body is in a yogic trance. consciousness makes reality manifest physically.

But isn't it true that other bodies also work as if they are real?

This subject is discussed in Vedanta Sutra, pada 4

the two bodies move and do things in synch with each other.

Does it mean that if the left hand of one body moves, then the left hand of another body moves too?

yes, these other bodies move and can perform physical tasks such as fetching material objects to the yogi.