What is the value of associating with saints if its not to hear their instructions?

his very unattached nature and bhakthi to the divine brings peace to our heart, that is, if we sit next to him.

I can understand that. But at some point does he give instructions, like "preach to the world"?

And if he does, what do we preach? His instructions on how to come to love God and all the reasons why we should make that choice?

Are his words, instructions, then considered to be on the same level as sitting next to him?

And what if he hands you some written instruction instead of speaking it? Is that somehow less potent?

If the potency remains on that peice of paper why would it not remain if it was reproduced and handed out to others, like in the form of books or commentaries to the books of past acaryas?

I can see how it would diminish by altering those instructions but not by reproducing them.

The life transforming potency is in taking the instructions of the guru to heart, which means following them. Those instructions are an expression of the guru's will.

Why is someone considered a pure devotee? Because he has dovetailed his will to Krsna's. His will is to fulfill Krsna's will.

Why is someone considered a disciple of a pure devotee? Because he has dovetailed his will with the will of his guru.

Its all about fulfilling the guru's will and not the medium that he made his will known to you, as in same room speech, telephone, letter,fax or BOOK.

Hare Krsna

No diff between Krishna/Form/Qualities/Pastimes etc

So His devotees teachings should have the same effect, is it not.

"Its all about fulfilling the guru's will and not the medium that he made his will known to you, as in same room speech, telephone, letter,fax or BOOK."

yes... but do not bring at the excess that "sit next to him" is wrong or irrilevant

it works like the real world.... a school with only books and no masters is not so good

of course we have to speak of pure bona fide spiritual masters..... srila prabhupada books alone are surely better of following a cheater

... is a place of pilgrimage. They make the place Vaikuntha.

"Wherever there is Krsna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion." [The Final Word ,BG]

Hare Krishna

Sorry to harp on about it, but dosen't it all boil down to having faith in Krishna/devotees words.

I have never heard anyone do that.

theist: Its all about fulfilling the guru's will and not the medium that he made his will known to you, as in same room speech, telephone, letter,fax or BOOK....


book is good
book and same room is better

But this whole thing is about eliminating the obstacles to self realization and as Srila Prabhupada said in the Purport to Canto 1. Ch. 2 Text 18

"Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical."


So clearly from what I read you can eliminate the obstacles of self realization simply by coming into contact with the writings of a Bhagavata which clearly Srila Prabhupada's writings are. If you are associating with Srila Prabhupada's writings in a mood of devotion it is no different than associating with him personally because Bhagavata book and person are identical. I realize people tend to overcomplicate this stuff because people are trying to raise some people to the level of devotion that Srila Prabhupada was at but its really not that complicated.

where is the complication?
if i associate with you by your writings is good
if i associate with you by your writings and staying some time with you speaking of krsna consciousness is better..

imagine that prabhupada is in a temple giving a class, i stand up, i go outside and i read a srila prabhupada book.....

i do not want to minimize the value of associating with prabhupada books but more is better than less

"books" is good
direct association with vaishnavas plus "books" is more good
direct association with vaishnavas plus "books" plus diksa initiation and good following (siksa) is more good
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.
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deviations are behind the corner for everyone.. "only books" is a deviation... "books are material" is another one

I agree but in my case I live in the middle of the desert in Eastern Washington and there isn't a Krishna Conscious person that I am aware of anywhere in sight. All I have is Srila Prabhupada's books so unless I am fortunate enough to come across an ascended spiritual master wandering around in the sagebrush the only way I can associate with a Krishna Conscious person is through Srila Prabhupada's books and in this forum because I think there are a lot of Krishna Conscious people in this chatroom.

I am sorry, I am not trying to minimize the value of personal association but these are dangerous times we live in and it is hard to know who to trust and I know I can trust Srila Prabhupada.

"it is hard to know who to trust and I know I can trust Srila Prabhupada."

i completely agree.... let us pray srila prabhupada and gauranga mahaprabhu to send us pure vaishnavas in "human form" to associate with.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

hare krishna!!

Ancient Mariner just said it very clearly and distinctly.

Hare Krsna

of course

I am sorry, I am not trying to minimize the value of personal association but these are dangerous times we live in and it is hard to know who to trust and I know I can trust Srila Prabhupada.
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Very nicely said, I think you are right... getting a true guru is impossible today, it is better to stick with Chaitanya, krishna and prabhupada.

"getting a true guru is impossible today"

difficult , not impossible.... chaitanya mahaprabhu wants to spread mahamantra in any town and village, he does not leave this world without pure sadhu sanga

it is not easy, we must have a very strong desire, gaura govinda swami says that we have to cry

saying that it is impossible to find a pure devotee is like to say that harekrsna/gaudya vaishnava movement is finished

if now is impossible to find pure devotees.. why it was possible from 1965 to 1978 ?

If we want to advance we must pray for good company. We need to associate ourselves with those whose very lives are reflections of what we find in the books. The books implore us on practically every page to seek out good company. The idea that there are no elevated devotees to associate with is a very unfaithful idea and one which is certainly offensive to the Lord. The Lord is present is different features - one of which is in his devotees. We call ourselves Vaishanvas - that means worshippers of Vishnu - but can we think he is alone? Vishnu also means his devotees. And or course Lord Chaitanya taught us to take the humble position of servant of the servant of Krsna.

My Guru Maharaja gave a nice example that is worth repeating here. He likened the jiva soul trying to get a glimpse of Krsna (or to become Krsna conscious) to someone trying to see the moon. Someone may say - I don't need any help, I can see the moon with my own two eyes. But with the unaided eye what will a person see? So the seeker may be offered a telescope with which to 'get closer' to the moon. He is told to look through the small end - but our foolish observer says - no, I want to look through the 'Big' lense. Again, what will the person see? You have to go through the proper process to get clear vision. In this context Guru Maharaja also cited the example of Ragunatha dasa Goswami who asked Lord Chaitanya for personal instructions and he told him that Svarupa Damodara knew more than him and that if he was anxious to learn that he should go to him. The only personal instructions given by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to Ragunatha dasa Goswami that are recorded for us in the historical literatures have Lord Chaitanya instructed him on what to avoid - no gramya katha, don't speak prajala - don't listen to prajalpa - don't eat fancy food, don't eat too much - like that - like in the first and second verses of Upadeshamrita. So what is the point? We have to follow the process - we must seek the help of vaishnavas and pray for their assocation and the possibility of serving them.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that one who is serious about spiritual life will get a spiritual master. He also said that if we search sincerely for a long time and still we don't find anyone who is qualified to help us that we need to look more closely at ourselves - to become more introspective about who we are, where we are at, etc.

Here is a nice sanga about sadhu sanga and why it is so important to our spiritual advancement:
http://swami.org/sanga/archives/pages/earlier/m30.html

Your servant,
Audarya-lila dasa

is that if you accept Lord Chaitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead you will be blessed by the combined mercy of guru and Krsna.

Prabhupada taught that. That does not preclude guru appearing to you in other forms. Books or "embodied" realized jivas.

These ideas are not in opposition to each other. If you are reading AND following Prabhupada's instructions on what is Krsna and how to worship Him you have guru.

If the Lord in the heart directs you to someone else presently embodied and instructs you to learn from him then you have guru.

Guru is not limited to a certain form. Why is this simple thing a subject of debate?

"Guru is not limited to a certain form. Why is this simple thing a subject of debate? "

because we cannot see and speak with paramatma..

and guru comes as a representative of paramatma..

and, when one step of parampara is disappeared, we have to take shelter in his representative successor ....

this is due our inability to have a relationship with paramatma and with the people out of our plane of existence

this is a very simple concept..

shastra.. guru ... sadhu

why there is this classification if everything is into books?

....

"is that if you accept Lord Chaitanya as the universal guru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead you will be blessed by the combined mercy of guru and Krsna."

assuming that you are a normal person like me... chaitanya and jagannath do not chastise you when you do something bad and it is not possible to have an "interactive( = asking questions, submitting doubts, seeking verifications, counseling..) " relationship with them, like you can have with me or other people you meet every day or, obviously a pure devotee acting as your guru

also

jagannath (krsna) has a spiritual master.. sandipani muni

chaitanya mahaprabhu has a spiritual master.. isvara puri

........

it is very difficult to serve a "living(in the current meaning)" spiritual master, a lot of humbleness is required, he cuts our attachements, he chastize ourselves, he make us feel silly in front o him... but it is necessary... we have to be very humble to enter the kingdom of god

it is very easy to read a book or folio and choose the answers that we like more... today i like more the answer given to jadurani, tomorrow i will follow the one given to jayapataka swami.. the result is that we are the real guru, not prabhupada neither paramatma

the bhagavad gita is krsna, the spiritual master, who correct the mistakes of arjuna who, knowing vedas, thinks that his duty is the one of a brahmana, a sannyasi, instead of the one of a ksatrya, a king

please do not take it as an offence, i express only my thoughts, i assume that you are very nice devotees and you are very sincere even if we have a different understanding of the krsna conscious philosophy