From - Tue Jun 05 08:21:35 2001
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Is Sri Krsna Himself

Some things which the followers of the Sri Madhava sampradaya have stated against some of the evidences given by others are true and some things are false. Let's look at the facts.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, after sanyasa, went to Jagannatha Puri and stayed there during His remaining years in this world. He travelled throughout India for 6 years - to South India and in the North.

Gaudiya Vaishnavas mainly lived in Gaura Mandal, Vraj Mandal and Ksetra Mandal. In Assam, Bengal, Bangladesh, Orssa, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, everyone knows and accepts Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. After Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamis of Vrndavan left this world, Srila Narrotama Das Thakur,
Srinivas Prabhu, and Syamananda Prabhu carried on His mission preaching in Bengal, Assam, Manipur, Orrisa, etc. In all these places everyone knows who Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is, Radha-Krsna lila, Hare Krsna maha-mantra, in every village, everywhere. In South India there are fewer who are familiar with Mahaprabhu due to language barriers.

India at that time was under the law of the Muslim regime, which was characterised with fighting with and oppression of the Hindu majority. After the Muslim regime came British rule. During this period the growth of Vaisnava religion progressed slowly. The sadhus in Bengal, Orrisa and U.P., Rajasthan, preached in their own regions, not travelling to other parts. During this period Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and Srila Baladeva Vidyabushana were prominent amongst the devotees. At the end of the British
rule Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura appeared in India and pure Vaisnava religion began to flourish.

Now at the present time, the whole world is becoming familiar with this pure Vaisnava culture following in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. During the Second World War most of the ancient Indian and Vedic texts were taken by the German army for their scientific research. In many German libraries
today one can find these valuable texts, many of which are not easily accessible to the general public. The texts they are presently making available in translated form, have been edited drastically. Forty, fifty
years before in Bombay, Nirnoi Sagar Press published many edition of Sanskrit books. Currently in Gaurakpur, Kalyan Press is publishing concise, summarised editions in Hindi and Sanskrit. In Bengal all Bengali language texts are published widely.

Before Mahaprabhu many sastra-praman, are quoted in books such as Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. Mostly we should consult the Baivaishya Purana where there are many references to Mahaprabhu referring to His divinity, His lila, etc, spoken in sanskrit. I have seen there where it has said in parallel verses:

anarpita carim carat
radha pranay mahima
nadiya upavane sri krsna caitanya

There it is stated that Mahaprabhu is present in this world, not only for the 48 years which were recorded but will remain for 12,500,000 years. Santan-dharma, Harinama sankirtan, vaishnava religion, will be predominate at that time, continuously progressing during the entire period. It is
interesting to note that in this Purana, which is composed entirely in Sanskrit (Mumbai Nis, Press), the history of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life and teachings are given, which confirm his position as Syama Bhagavan Sri Krsna himself.

In the edition of Caitanya Caritamrta by Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj, Adi lila Chapter 3, text 49:

suvarna-varno hemango
varangas candanangadi
sannyasa-krc chamah santo
nistha-santi-parayanah

"In His early pastimes He appears as a householder with a golden complexion. His limbs are beautiful, and His body, smeared with the pulp of sandalwood, seems like molten gold. In His later pastimes He accepts the sannyasa order, and He is equipoised and peaceful. He is the highest abode of peace and devotion, for He silences the impersonalist nondevotees."

This is a verse from the Mahabharata (Dana-dharma, Visnu-sahasra-nama-stotra). In his commentary on the Visnu-sahasra-nama
called the Namatha-sudhabhidha, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana, commenting upon
this verse, asserts that Lord Caitanya is the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to the evidence of the Upanisads.

iti dvapara urvisa
stuvanti jagad-isvaram
nana-tantra-vidhanena
kalav api yatha srnu

"O King, in this way people in Dvapara-yuga worshiped the Lord of the universe. In Kali-yuga they also worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead by the regulations of the revealed scriptures. Kindly now hear that from me.

krsna-varnam tvisakrsnam
dangopangastra-parsadam
yajnaih sankirtana-prayair
yajanti hi sumedhasah

"In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the name of Krsna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krsna himself. He accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions."

This text is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.5.32). Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this verse in his commentary on the Bhagavatam known as the Krama-sandarbha, wherein he says that Lord Krsna also appears with a golden complexion. That golden Lord Krsna is Lord Caitanya, who is worshiped by
intelligent men in this age. That is confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam by Gargamuni, who said that although the child Krsna was blackish, He also appears in three other colours-red, white and yellow. He exhibited His white and red complexion in the Satya and Treta ages respectively. He did not exhibit the remaining colour, yellow-gold, until He appeared as Lord Caitanya, who is known as Gaurahari.

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains that krsna-varnam means Sri Krsna Caitanya. Krnsa-varna and Krsna Caitanya are equivalent. The name Krnsa appears with both Lord Krsna and Lord Caitanya Krsna. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but He always engages in describing Krsna and thus enjoying transcendental bliss by chanting and remembering His name and form. Lord Krsna Himself appears as Lord Caitanya to preach the highest gospel.

jahnavitire navadvipe golokasye dhamni govindo
dvibhujo gourah sarvatma mahapuruso mahatma
mahayogi trigunatita sattyarupo bhakti loke kasyeti
(atharva vediya caitanyopanisad)

"On the banks of the Jahnavi, at Navadvipa which is non-different from Goloka, the omnipresent Supersoul, great personality, great soul, great mystic, beyond triple qualities, fully pure goodness, fully opulent, Sri Govinda, will appear in a two handed golden form and establish bhakti."

eko devah sarvarupi mahatma gouro raktasyamalasvetarupah
caitanyatma sa vai caitany saktir bhaktakaro bhttide bhaktivedyah
namo vedanta vedyaya krsnaya parnamatmane
souva caitanya rupaya caitanyaya namo namah
vedanta vedyam purusam puranam caitanyatmanam
taneva viditva ati mrtumeti nagah pantha visva yogi mahantam
(caitanyopanisad)

"In the transcendental realm of Goloka, the same supreme Lord takes many different forms. In the different ages He appears consequently as white in satya, as red in treta, black in dvapava and golden in kali. Sri Caitanya
Mahaprabhu, who possesses caitanya sakti appears as a devotee. He is the giver of pure divine love.

"I offer my obeisances again and again unto Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is understood by the unprecedented vedante, who is Krsna and the Supersoul."

By knowing this great person, who possesses unlimited qualities, one is able to escape death. Without his direction, one cannot attain his goal; there is no other way. There is no difference between Sir Krnsa and Sri Caitanya.

saptame goavavarna visno vityanena sva saktya caikay metya
prante prataratvativya saha svaih svamanu siksayati
asya vhekha saptum saptuma manvantare vaivasata manou
goura varno bhagavan sasaktya hladinisaktya aikyam
praptya prante ka lauyuge pratah pratams sandhyayam
avatirno bhutva saha svaih saparsadaih swavnanum
hare krsnadi janau siksayati upadisati ityavthah
(athavaveda-purusa bodhinyam)

"In the 7th vaivasvata manvantare at the beginning of the 28th kali-yuga, You will appear accepting the … hladini shakti, accompanied by your associates, instructing everyone to chant "Hare Krsna" mantra and other things.

"Gentlemen! The all merciful Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has no comparison. The Vedas have described Him.

ito ham krta sannyaso avartarisyami saguno
nirvedo niskamo bhugivani stiva stho alakanandeyah kalau
catah sahasrabdopari pamcasahasrabhyantave gaua varno
dighangoh sarva laksnayeikla isvara pravtito
nija rasasvado bhakta rupo nisrakoh vidityogah yama
(atharvaveda 3rd kauda brahma vibhagantaram)

"Krsna answering the Deva's prayers: Between 4,000 and 5,000 years into kali-yuga, on the special request of Siva incarnate Sri Adwaita Acarya, He appears as a transcendental Brahman. I will take sannyasa. I will have a
golden complexion. Bearing many auspicious signs of a great person, I will taste my own sweetness."

visvambara visvena mahi pahi svaha
(atharva veda)

" I offer myself unto the lotus feet of Visvambara who gives pranam to the three worlds."

jyotiviva dhamaka
(kathopanishad 2/1/13)

"The form of the lord is like fire covered by smoke."

hiranyasmasvah hiramyakesah apranachat
sarva eva suvarnah
(chandogya upanishad (1/6/6))

"The lord has a golden complectioned form and hair. From His toes to His head He is golden."

atra brahmapuram nama pundarika yaducyute
tade vastadalam padma sanivam pura madbhutam
tanmadhye daharam saksat mayapuranamitiryate
tatra vesma bhagavatas caitanyesya paratmanah
tasmin yastvantavakaso hyantarduipah sa ucyate
(chandogya upanisad)

"In My heart there is an amazing petalled lotus. In My centre there is a place called "pahava" in Mayapura. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lives here at Antardvipa."

yada pasyah pasyate rukonakarna
katarimisam purusam brahmayonim
tada vidvan punyaspape vidhuya
niranjanah paramam samyamu paiti
(mundaka upanisad 3/1/3)

"When the living entities have audience of the Supreme Lord, then, whether they are pious or sinners, they will become friends of that Lord. The complexion of that Super Soul is golden and He is the cause of everything."

vedahametam purusa mahantaviadityavarna
tanieva vidituati amrtyumetinanya tamasah parastat pantha
vidya te ganaya
(svetasvuava Upanisad 3/9)

mahan prabhurvai purusa satvasyaisa pravartaka
sunirmalamimain praptimisano jyotirauyayah
(svetasvata Upanisad 6/12)

"That supreme lord Sri Mahaprabhu is spotless. He is the bestower of
causeless mercy for the jivas."

bhaktapriyo bhaktidata damodara ibhaspatih
indradarpaharo nanto nityananda cidatmaka
caitanya rupascaitanyas cetana gunor jitah
advaita cava nipune dvaita parama hayakah
nilah svetah sitah krsna goura pitambarachadah
sacisuta jayapradah
(Narada pancatratra/jnanamrtasar/ratra4/chapter8 balakrsna sahasva
namstotra116-117, 84,154)

Here it is clearly mentioned the different names of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu such as bhakta priya, bhakti data, daniodara, caitanya, caitanyerupa, nityananda, advaitacaranipuna, advaita, gour krsna, sacisuta.

iti smarananantaram sri-guror ajnaya sriman-mahaprabhum sodasopacaradibhih
tan-mula-mantrenaiva pujayet. sriman-mahaprabhu-manrtoddharo yatha
urddhvamnaye sri-vyasam prati sri-narada-vakyam (3.14-16)

aho gudhatamah prasno
bhavata parikirtitah
mantram vaksyami te brahman
maha-punya-pradam subham

Then, by the order of his guru, the sadhaka shall offer puja to Sriman Mahaprabhu with the sixteen articles of worship and the six-syllable gaura-mantra. In the Urddhavamnay-samhita, there is a statement concerning this gaura-mantra, wherein Sri Vedavyasa says to Sri Narada: "Oh Brahmana,
you have asked which mantra is used in worshipping Bhagavan Sri Gauranga. This question is very profound. I shall speak of this greatly pious and auspicious mantra to you."

klim gauraya namah' iti
sarva-lokesu pujitah
maya-ramananga-bijaih
vag-bijena ca pujitah

sadaksarah kirtito 'yam
mantra-rajah sura-drumah

mantro yatha-klim gauraya namah; hrim, srim, klim, aim gauraya namah

"This gaura-mantra (gauraya namah) is worshipped using the bija-mantras of Maya, Rama, Ananga and Sarasvati. For example, just as we say klim gauraya namah, similarly we may also say hrim gauraya namah, srim gauraya namah, etc. In this way this six syllable mantra is honoured. When the people of the world combine gauraya namaha with the kama bija and chant klim gauraya namaha, they receive the gift of divine love. I have chanted to you this sadakshara-mantra-raja, which is like a kalpa-druma because it fulfils all of one's desires."

Dear Prabhu, I think here, while I am travelling here in England and Holland I don't have access to many books for reference. If you'd like I will give
all sastric quotations, referenced, stated as they are, when I return to India. In our Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti, the sastra praman, quotations, are available. When I return to Mathura I will be able to send them to you in
July when I return. Then I can give you a full answer with all quotations.

Please send me any questions you have. I am happy you remembered me. Please
accept my dandavat pranams.

Jaya Sri Radhe!

Your servant,

Tridandi Swami Bhaktivedanta Tirtha Maharaja

Unfortunately all the evidences mentioned in this letter posted by Puru das are only a fake. They were already discussed in these forums for a long and no one could proof their authenticity.

Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda was the Gaudiya theologian from last century who made the shape of the Gaudiya's sect in the present, including Iskcon. He has written and published many books on theology, including "Sri Caitanya Upanisad." He fond a single copy of that manuscript, he has published it and the original has disappeared forever, and no one else could ever seen it.

This Caitanya Upanisad (linked to Atharva Veda, according to Bhaktivinoda ) is the main sruti proof of Sri Caitanya's divinity present by Gaudiyas even nowadays.

Even if someone may accept Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda as a bona fide source of new srutis, surpassing the old and dark Sri Krsna Dvapayana Vyasa in the ability of to compile srutis texts, most of people would like to appreciate as an evidence srutis mantras written before Sri Caitanya avatara, not after His advent.

In the same manner, all smrti texts present in this letter are from interpolated texts in several Puranas sucha as Padma and Sakanda, and from an obscure Upa-Purana named Bhavisya-Purana, whose autethenticity is denied by most of Gaudiyas themselves.

The Tantric evidences quoted from Tantra, Agamas and Pañcaratras may be accept as bona fide, as Sri Caitanya is actually to be considered as a Tantric God and nothing else.

Some scholars state that Sri Caitanya is a typical Tantric god. Advaita Acarya invoked Him with Ganga's water, mantras and tulasi leaves following the Tantric system and dismissed Him by sending Him a letter in Puri according the rules on how to dismiss Tantric vibhutis. For certain that is not scholars' exclusive viewpoint, as anyone who has a little understanding of Tantra will attain the same conclusion on Sri Caitanya avatara.
Even Dr. Kapoor, a very learned Gaudiya-vaisnava writer has deffended this thesis in some of his books aproved by Swami Prabhupada.

In Tantra god is the combined aspect of male and female. All saktis came from the male aspect who is the potent but not the potency. The male and female counterpart are eternally in sexual activities. Devotes want to serve these sexual activities and feel the orgasm that they call prema. In Gaudiya's Tantra the worship of Radha is a sakta worship of the female aspect of the Tantric god, very common in Bengal's heritage. Krsna is worship as the male aspect of this Tantric god. This is purest Tantra. It has nothing to do with Vedanta no matter how hard they try to proof otherwise. That's why they can never quote any Vedic evidence on Radha, Caitanya and all of their thesis, and methods of worship coming from sruti texts, itihasas and sattvik-smrtis.

In this kind of Tantra one should adopt a dvaita philosophy, since one may observe dualism to worship separately the male aspect and the female aspect of the Tantric God, or even His combined aspect as Caitanya. That is why they are so averse to advaita-vada in all of its forms, that sees no dualism in Hari's aspect and this kind of result (orgasm as felt by the female aspect, krsna-prema) would be impossible to be attained.

This kind of Tantric god is not a new creation. It is actually very ancient. One may find His evidences in the temples at Khajuraho, in Vaisnava Maha-Tantra, Pañcaratras, and many Agamas.

So, they have a Tantric god, that must to be dual. But the Vedic god is non-dual. Trying
to harmonize both conceptions of God they made the philosophy of acintya-bedha-abheda-tattva. But obviously no one can find any evidence in sruti about a hybrid god like that.

Tantra literally means "to expand the mind". Tantric teachings allow a person to experience the "absolute" through excess of the flesh. Recent sex gurus have tarnished the purity of Tantra, but the ideal of a Tantric society is the one where the mind and
body were in unison with the spirit. A society in which art and science combined happily with spirituality and sexuality. A society that believe in dealing frankly and openly with all aspects of life, including sex. Sex too has a role to play in life, over or under representation of sex is eventually harmful to any society. Frank depiction of uninhibited sex speaks of a liberated society which is open minded in its views concerning sex and sexuality. Tantric Texts seems to graphically and realistically illustrated scenes of love.

All aspects of love, from seduction to copulation, enticement to separation are carefully described.

Tantra does not deny any aspect of life, because that would mean denial of God himself. It finds the divine spark in both beauty and ugliness, transcending both, desire and aversion, is its ultimate goal. Tantric cosmos is divided in to the male and female principle. Male principle has the form and potential, female has the energy.
According to Tantric philosophy, one can not achieve anything without the other, as they manifest themselves in all aspects of the universe. Nothing can exist without their co-operation and coexistence. Hence, the whole universe is based on the union of male and female, why feel ashamed of it!

The bliss and joy of a union between soul and god is so intense, it is almost impossible to describe this feeling except as an intense and prolonged orgasm. In the ultimate union, one sees love overflowing the body and soul.

According to Tantra, sexual enjoyment is complementary to the moral, material and
spiritual well-being of a person. Sex is as natural as sunshine and rain, as food and drink, as sight and scent. It is not something to be hidden in shame and then brooded on with guilt. Pleasure is as essential as food for our existence, yet it must be pursued with moderation and caution. The whole point of Tantras is to regulate and become perfect masters of sex, rather than be a slave to it. Enjoyment is an essential step to renunciation, as detachment is achieved only by going through and overcoming all attachments.

So, Sri Caitanya is the perfect Tantric God, were the male (potential ) principle and the
female (active) principle are both combined in an eternal orgasm called mahabhava. Very
interesting indeed, but then there was the Muslim and also the Christian influence during the medieval India. Part of this Tantric god was somewhat mutilated.

Nowadays the theology by Kedharanatha Bhaktivinoda and the saffron police created by Gaudiya-math has castrated this Tantric god. If one is to relish this Tantric god the only way seems to drive by the old and nasty sahajiya road.

If one is seeking after any evidence from sruti on a Tantric god he is simply wasting his time. One will never find any relationship with a Tantric god and Hari in sruti texts. Many of Gaudiya gurus are very clear in that point: Tantra is the basis of all of Gaudiyas practices, beliefs and aim. Sruti text and smrti text are only interpolations into Tantric-god's organism.

A basic understanding on Tantra may be fond in the 'Vaisnava Maha-Tantra' that is a supplement of Narada Purana. A very clear and scientific approach on all kind of Tantras,
tamasic, rajasic and sattvic.

In essence Tantra explains you that one may invoke vaibhavas, or the powers given by the saktis of the vibhuti. No one but Siva may invoke a vibhuti (saktiman), what to say the maha-vibhuti (Supreme Saktiman).

According to Tantras one may invoke all kinds of vaibhavas, or simple bhavas given by very powerful saktis such as Devi, Lalita, Radha, and so on. One may have some their attributes, aspects, feelings, etc. by Tantric methods.

But these are not the real mystic experience that one may have when he faces Hari, that cannot be invoked by Tantra (only Siva can do it, not even Brahma).

So, what kind of mystic experience is that krsna-prema? It is only the orgasm that the
saktis may have while dealing with their vibhutis. It is not the same experience described by Vedic (orthodox) seers such as
Tulsidas, Vallabhacarya, Mirabai, Surdas, San Juan de La Cruz and countless others saints.

Therefore one may easily conclude that the whole system as taught by Gaudiya-vaisnavas will lead to another aim, that is not exactly union with Hari. They consider such union as undesirable, as sayujiya-mukti, because their aim is to attain sakti and not saktiman. So, they are saktas, not real Vaisnavas.

Vaisnavas are seeking after Hari, not after Hari's saktis.

The Fourth Jewel
Gaura-tattva
The Gauranga Principle

The evidence of Sruti in connection with Sriman Mahaprabhu

4. 1
mahan-prabhur vai purusam sattvasyesu pravarttakam
surnimalam imam santisano jyotiravyam
The Personality of Godhead [Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu] is brilliantly effulgence [like molten gold], and he is imperishable. He is
the Supreme Controller. He controls the mode of goodness and [through the performance of sankirtana] he bestows upon theliving beings [the] spiritual intelligence [by which they can understand devotional service]. [In his acarya-lila, as a sannyasi] Heis the source of spiritual purity and of liberation. He is therefore known as "Mahaprabhu." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 2.12)

The Sruti establishes that The Supreme Lord
will appear in a golden form as Sri Gauranga

4. 2
yada pasyam pasyate rukma-varnam kartaram isam purusam brahma-yonim
tada vidyan punya-pape vidhuya nira-janam pramam samyam upaiti
When one realizes the golden form of that Lord [Sri Gauranga] who is the ultimate actor and the source of the Supreme Brahman, he attains the highest knowledge, transcends both pious and impious activities, becomes free from wordly bondageand gains entrance into the divine abode of the Lord. (Mundaka Upanisad 3.3)

The evidence of Srimad-Bhagavatam

4. 3
krsna-varnam tvisa-'krsnam sangopangastra-parsadam
yajnaim sankirtana-prayair-yajanti hi sumedhasam
In the age of Kali, Krsna appears in a golden form, [as Sri Gauranga] chanting the two syllables krsna. He descends along with
his weapons [The holy name of Krsna, Srimad-Bhagavatam, kirtana, and mahaprasada ], His limbs [His expansions and
avataras such as Nityananda, Advaita, and His divine energies (saktis) such as Gadadhara, Svarupa Damodara, andRamananda Raya ], and eternal confidential associates [like Srivasa hakura, Haridasa hakura, and other devotees]. Those whoare advanced in transcendental intelligence worship Him by performing sankirtana. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.32)

4. 4
"krsna" - ei dui varna sada ya-'ra mukhe
athava krsnake ti-ho varne nija sukhe
dehakantye haya ti-ho akrsna-varana
"akrsna" - varane kahe pita-varana
The two syllables "krsna" are always in His mouth, or He always describes Krsna with great pleasure. These are two meanings
of the words "krsna-varna." Indeed, nothing but Krsna issues from His mouth. If someone tries to describe Him as being of blackish complexion, the next adjective, "tvisakrsnam" immediately restricts him. His complexion is certainly not blackish.Indeed, His not being blackish indicates that his complexion is golden. (Caitanya Caritamrta-Adi 3.53,56)

4. 5
asan varnastrayo'hyasya grhnato'nuyugam tanum
suklo-raktas-tatha-pita idanim krsnatam gatam
This boy, Krsna, has three other colors: white, red, and yellow, as he appears in different ages. Now, in this Dvapara-yuga, he
has appeared in a transcendental blackish color. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.8.13)

4. 6
sukla, rakta, krsna, pita - krame cari varna
cari varna dhari' "krsna" karena yugadharma
In the four ages, (yugas) Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali, Krsna accepts four different colors: white, red, black, and yellow respectively. These are the colors of the different incarnations of Krsna in different milleniums.
(Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.330)

4. 7
itham nr-tiryag-rsi-deva-jhasavataraair
lokan vibhavayasi hamsi jagat-pratipan
dharmam mahapurusa pasi yuganuvrttam
channam kalau yad-abhavas tri-yugo 'tha sa tvam
[Prahlada said] O Krsna! In this way you appear in various incarnations: as a human being, an animal, a great saint, a demigod,
a fish, or a tortoise. Thus maintaining the entire creation in different planetary systems. In this way, according to the age,You protect the principles of religion. But O, Mahaprabhu! In the age of Kali, [when you come to preach the holy name of Krsna,
you do so as a devotee and therefore] You do not assert Yourself as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because your
Godhood is hidden in the age of Kali You therefore known as Triyuga, or the Lord who manifests his Supremacy in only three
ages. [And for this reason many sastras have also kept your appearance in Kaliyuga a secret.] (Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.38)

The evidence of Mahabharata

4. 8
suvarna-varna hemango varangas-candanangadi
sannyasa-krcchamam santo nistha-santi-parayanam
[The following explanation of this verse is given by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat and is based on the commentary by
Baladeva Vidyabhusana on the Visnu-sahasra-nama-stotram found in Mahabharata. These remarks are mentioned by A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami in his translation of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati hakura's anubhasya commentary on Caitanya
Caritamrta Adi 3.49 - 52)] When the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna appears as Sri Gauranga, in his early pastimes
His complexion is gold (suvarna-varna ), his limbs are are the color of molten white gold (hemanga), his body is extremely
beautiful (varangas), and he is decorated with sandalwood pulp (candanangadi). [These four are the symptoms of Hisgrhastha-lila.] Another meaning of the description of the Lord as having a golden hue is that Lord Caitanya's personality is as fascinating as gold is attractive. Sri Caitanya accepts the sannyasa order of life (sannyasa-krt), and shows equanimity (sama) in different ways: by describing the mysteries of devotion to Sri Krsna, and by satisfying everyone by knowledge and attachment to Krsna. (santa). He is peaceful because he renounces all topics not related to the service of Krsna. His mind is always fixed on Krsna, and thus He is fixed (nistha ) in performing the great sacrifice of the holy name of Krsna. He silences the nondevotees and impersonalists who are opposed to the service of the Lord, by promoting the cause of devotion. Thus he distributes real peace. He is therefore an
abode of the highest spiritual peace and devotion (mahabhava-parayana).(Mahabharata, Tadanadharma 149)

The evidence of the Puranas

4. 9
aham eva kvacid brahman sannyasnasramamnasritam
hari-bhaktim grahayami kalau papa-hatan-naran
[The Supreme Lord said to Sri Vyasadeva] O learned brahmanas, sometimes I accept the renounced order of life to induce
the fallen people of the age of Kali to accept devotional service to the Lord. (Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 3.81)

4. 10
aham eva dvija-srestha nityam pracchana-vigraham
bhagavad-bhakta-rupena lokan raksami sarvada
O best of the brahmanas! My disguised form is eternal. In this way, with my own form hidden from ordinary sight, I take the form of a devotee and appear among the people in general in order to establish and protect religious principles. (Adi Purana )

The glories of the mercy of Sri Gauranga and Nityananda

4. 37
caitanya nityanande nahi ei' saba vicara
nama laite prema dena, bahe asrudhara
svatantra-isvara prabhu atyanta udara
ta-'re na bhajile kabhu nahaya nistara
If one only chants with some slight faith the holy names of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and
Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Thus, as soon as he chants the Hare Krsnamantra, he feels the ecstasy of love of Godhead. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the independent Supreme Personality of Godhead is greatly magnanimous. Unless one worships Him, one can never be liberated. (Caitanya Caritamrta-Adi 8.31-32)

The unfortunate position of those who cheat themselves out of Sri Gauranga's mercy.

4. 38
caitanyavatare bahe premarta-vanya
saba jiva preme bhase, prthivi haila dhanya
ei-vanyaya ye na bhase, sei jiva - chara
koti kalpe tabe ta'ra nahika nistara
There is now a flood of the eternal nectar of love of Godhead, because of the incarnation of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. All living entities are floating in that flood. The entire world is now thankful to the Lord. Anyone who does not float in this inundation is most condemned. Such a person cannot be delivered for millions of lifetimes of Lord Brahma.
(Caitanya Caritamrta-Antya
3.252-253)

4. 39
avatara sara, gaura-avatara
kena na bhajili ta're
kari' nire vasa, gela na piyasa,
apana karama phere
kantakera taru, (sri) gauranga amara,
tahare bhavili vise
saurabhera ase, palasa su-kili,
nasate pasila kita
iksudanda bhavi' katha cusili,
kemane paibi mitha
hara baliya, galaya parili,
samana-kinkara-sapa
sitala baliya aguna pohali,
paili bajara-tapa
samsara bhajili, (sri) gauranga bhulili,
na sunili sadhura katha
iha-para-kala, du'kala khoyali,
khaili apana matha
Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu is the essence of all avataras. Why didn't I worship Him? It is as if I was surrounded by water and dying of thirst but I denied myself a drink. I chewed the thorns on the tree of worldly life and took the blood that flowed through my mouth to be nectar. When I was offered the nectarine fruits of love of Godhead distributed by Sri Gauranga, however, I
turned them away, thinking them to be poison. Wishing to smell perfume I sniffed at what I
thought was the fragrant flower of material enjoyment. Alas, that flower was odorless, like the palasa flower. And when I tried to sniff its illusory aroma, a bee flew up my nose and stung me. Thinking material life to be as sweet as sugarcane, I tried to taste its nectar. Instead, as I sucked, I found it juiceless and dry. In this way, I found that all my attempts at enjoyment proved false. In
this way, all my attempts at enjoyment proved false. Admitting defeat, wasted and worn out, I await the snake of death. Declaring it to be cool and soothing, I have embraced the fire of material life, only to suffer intense miseries, as if struck by lightning. Worshiping family and material life I forgot Gauranga and didn't listen to the words of the saints. Now, in my final days I realize that I am twice dead, for not only am I casting off this mortal body, but I am dead while living, having wasted my life in material indulgence
(Mahajana-giti).

Sri Gauranga appears in the form of His holy name and as His deity

4. 40
ara dui janma ei sankirtanarambhe
haiba tomara putra ami avilambe
mora arca-murti mata, tumi se dharani
jihvarupa tumi mata, namera janani
ei dui janma mora sankirtanarambhe
dui tha-i tora putra avilambe
[Sri Caitanya told Saci] Birth after birth you are my mother. Again, in this birth, I have come tobegin the sankirtana movement, and so I have become your son. My appearance in this world is twofold: I appear as the arca-murti, the deity form of the Lord, and as the holy name. In this way I appear upon the tongue in the form of sound, and as the deity made from the elements drawn from earth. In both of these forms I am worshiped, and in these two features I have appeared in
order to spread the sankirtana movement.
(Caitanya-Bhagavata Madhya 27.47)

The teachings of Sri Gauranga in a nutshell

4. 41
aradhyo bhagavan brajesa-tanayas-tad-dhama vrndavanam
ramya kacid-upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena ya kalpita
srimad-bhagavatam pramanam-amalam prema pumartho mahan
sri caitanya mahaprabhor-matam-idam tatradaro nam param
It is the conclusive opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu that: Sri Krsna, who is
Vrajendra-nandana, the son of the king of Vraja, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, the topmost worshipable Deity; Vrndavan-dhama which is an expansion of Sri Krsna and is nondifferent from Him is the highest worshipable abode; The gopis of Vrndavana are the highest example of the worship of Sri Krsna Srimad-Bhagavatam is the spotless evidence for knowing the absolute truth; Krsna-prema is the fifth and highest goal of life. These are the teachings of Sri
Caitanya in a nutshell.
(Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura)
Thus ends the fourth jewel of the Gaudiya Kanthahara entitled Gaura-tattva

GAUDIYA KANTHAHARA page

Gaura-tattva: the Gauranga principle page

**********************
Anyone so foolish to not accept the words of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura deserves to live with his own mind,instead.
pda

Holy Smokes Puru,

What suddenly happened to Satyaraj. This new Satyaraj makes me appreciate the old Satyaraj much better. He flip flops quite a bit so perhaps we can expect the old Satyaraj back at any time. We should pray for his recovery.

And this should be a lession to us that we should always appreciate those who are trying to love and serve Mahaprabhu dispite their faults and demeanor.

And Puru nice essay and info thanks, Brahma

Bhavishya Purana is not an Upapurana. It is one of the 18 maha-puranas. Please refer Vishnu Purana 3.6.20-23. Neither is it obscure. The sanskrit text is readily available to anyone who has interest in it. Perhaps it is obscure in the sense that there is no English translation of the text, but that is quite irrelevant regarding the authenticity of the text itself.

Bhavishya Purana is not an Upapurana. It is one of the 18 maha-puranas. Please refer Vishnu Purana 3.6.20-23. Neither is it obscure. The sanskrit text is readily available to anyone who has interest in it. Perhaps it is obscure in the sense that there is no English translation of the text, but that is quite irrelevant regarding the authenticity of the text itself.

"....A diseased person cannot cure himself. He must be under the care of a physician. Just as the anger of a diseased person is
pardonable, the improper behavior of the ignorant should also be excused. This attitude is known as mercy. The ignorant
have many misconceptions, such as faith in karma-kanda, occasional inclination toward jnana, worshiping the Deity with ulterior motives, faith in yoga, indifference toward the association of pure Vaisnavas, attachment to varnasrama, and many other things. By association, mercy and good instructions, these misconceptions can be dispelled and the
kanistha-adhikari can quickly become a madhyama-adhikari suddha-bhakta."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura
Jaive Dharma
***************

No one who becomes a guru tyagi can heal himself from his anarthas, only dive deeper into the ocean of birth and death. Also Srila Rupa Gosvami clearly explains in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu:

sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratra-vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate

"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanishads, Puranas and Narada Pancaratra is
simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."
(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101).

Philosophical discussions with those who reject our acaryas, the puranas and the Srimad Bhagavatam are a waste of time and in fact ill advised.

"The fourth characteristic of the madhyama is neglect of those who are inimical. It is necessary to define here what is meant by
the inimical, and to describe their different types. Dvesa, enmity is a particular attitude which is also known as matsarata, envy.
That attitude which is exactly the opposite of love is known as dvesa. The supreme Lord is the only object of love. The attitude a person bears toward the Lord which is in direct opposition to love is known as dvesa.
This divesa is of five different
types: absence of faith in God; the belief that God is nothing more than a natural potency which brings about the results of all
action; the belief that God has no particular form; the belief that the jivas are not eternally subordinate to the Lord; and the
absence of mercy.

"Individuals whose hearts are contaminated by these inimical attitudes are absolutely bereft of suddha-bhakti Haridas Babaji said. They are destitute of even prakrta-bhakti, the rudimentary devotion represented by the
neophyte devotee's worship of the Deity, which is the doorway to suddha bhakti. The five types of enmity just described are found to co exist with attachment of material sense enjoyment

....How should a suddha-bhakta behave
toward such inimical people? The should avoid them.

"....Spiritual association means to meet together for the purpose of spiritual advancement, to discuss topics of
eternal truth, and to render reciprocal service and welfare which awakens one s devotional sentiments. To avoid
the association of people with whom such types of exchanges are not possible is called upeksa.

"When an inimical person who has adopted divergent opinions hears glorification of suddha bhakti, or virtuous instructions regarding bhakti, he will immediately retort with some futile argument, beneficial neither for you nor for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments and interact with such people only so far as routine social
dealings are concerned. If you say it would be best to include inimical people among the ignorant and bestow mercy upon them, then far from helping them, you will only harm yourself. Benevolence should be applied but it should be done with caution.

"Madhyama-adhikari suddha-bhaktas should certainly carry out these four types of behavior. Any negligence on their part in
this regard makes them guilty of improper behavior and failure to do that for which they are qualified. This is considered as a
serious defect."
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura
Chapter Eight, Vaishnava Behavior
Jaiva Dharma

*****************

Therefore I will post positive coments from shastra and our acaryas but will not dialogue with Satyaraj Prabhu directly, because his attitude has devolved into one of enmity toward his own guru varga and warrants upeksa.

[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 06-29-2001).]

Wonder what Tantric book he read that started his new trip on?

Remind me to avoid it like the plague.

Puru has posted a enormous list of sastric 'evidences' on Caitanya avatara. He has wasted his time. They are all fakes from different srmits and Tantras, mainly after Caitanya's advent . Not evidences from sruti collected before Caitanya's advent.

Jagatji, who is thousands of times more learned than Puru, while solicited to give some sastric evidences from sruti texts and before Caitanya's advent, has said that he would post several meters of evidences like that of Puru's, but not even a single one really powerful and under the usual criteria for establishment of an avatara.


We do not discard that many sastras before Caitanya's advent may have descriptions of Kali-yuga
and also may mention a yuga avatara. In every Kali-yuga there is an avatar, and we may accept this fact, but one should also consider the follow argument: "Of the 4 Vaisnava-sampradayas of Kali-yuga, none of them had accepted that Sri Caitanya was the Yuga-avatara. Not even Madhva-sampradaya accept this fact, what to say the other sampradayas. This fact is only mentioned by Gaudiyas and by no one else. So, they have to prove it with sound sastric evidences (collected before His advent and easily available nowadays) and irrefutable logic arguments. They cannot simply state that those who don't accept Sri Caitanya as an avatara are only atheists and deluded incredulous."

Therefore it is a duty of the Gaudiya-vainavas to find out their sastric evidences on Sri Caitanya avatara with
solid and irrefutable quotes following a standard acceptable by most of the sanatana-dharma darsanas including all other Vaisnava-sampradayas, to fulfil the most basic premise of their preachings.

Bhavishya Purana is not an Upapurana. It is one of the 18 maha-puranas. Please refer Vishnu Purana 3.6.20-23. Neither is it obscure.

Supposedly Gaudiyas follow the Bhagavata Purana, not Visnu Purana. In Bhagavata's 12th Canto (published by BBT) there is a list of the 18 maha-puranas, and this Bhavishya Purana is not included.

Jndas has mentioned Visnu Purana 3.6.20-23 as a reference. But he did not mention the edition and published by whom. The most popular publication of Visnu Purana is the one translated by H. H. Wilson, circa 1840. Sir Wilson states that he got at least 14 different manuscripts on that Purana whose authenticity were very dubious and the content very different, so he has decided to make a 'balanced' translation of that Purana. Is that source absolutely bona fine?

There are other lists of Puranas in Narada Purana and Vahara Purana published by UNESCO, where in some of these lists this Bhavisya Purana appears as an Upa -Purana.

Anyway, the authenticity of Bhavisya Purana is discussed by Gaudiya themselves, as many of Gaudiyas' paribharas do not accept it as a bona fide evidence of anything.

Therefore I will post positive coments from our acaryas but will not dialogue with Satyaraj Prabhu directly, because his attitude has devolved into one of enmity twoard his own guru varga and warrants upeksa.(Puru)

At first I should confess that I had abandoned a guru who is always slandering great Vaisnavas. Thereafter I could notice that his 'guru-varga' was also a fake, as he was always trying to proof their link with Madhva-sampradaya. If the link were to be considered so important and absolute bona fide, why to spend a lot of time and to write a lot of arguments repeatedly trying to proof it?

For certain I known very well all the arguments that are employed to 'proof' this link, but anyone who may has a healthy mental condition, should also verify another sources of evidences, such as the arguments of the Madhva-sampradaya itself. Their arguments for that link between Gaudiyas and Madhva-sampradaya are as follows;

"In the Upanishads, the sacred Vedanta texts of yore, one finds in more than one place the well known metaphor of a blind person leading other blind people astray, to illustrate what happens when an incompetent, styling himself a learned man, attempts to teach others what he knows not himself. This metaphor is very apt to describe Prabhupada's translation and purport for the Bhagavad Gita. For while he claims that his translation and purports follow a "disciplic succession" (see bottom of Prabhupada's Introduction) of traditional commentaries and understanding of the work deriving from the dualistic school of Vedanta of Madhva (number 5 on Prabhupada's claimed list of succession), they in fact show a great divergence and opposition to the traditional understanding found in the latter's works.

"In fact, given the evidence, it is far more correct to say that Prabhupada's interpretations derive from Shankara's than from Madhva's. For instance, in explaining XI-47, Shankara clearly says `tvadanyena tvattaH anyena kenachit.h na dR^ishhTapUrvam.h' -- none other than you had ever seen this (Universal Form of Krishna) before.

"Prabhupada follows suit by saying, in translation: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, happily have I shown you, by My internal potency, this supreme universal form within the material world. No one before you has ever seen this primal form, unlimited and full of glaring effulgence."

"Here's what Madhva says in explaining XI-47 in the gItA-tAtparya: there he anticipates the mistaken exposition, and explains the correct interpretation of `tvad.h anyena na dR^ishhTapUrvam.h' --

mayA prasannena tavA.arjunedaM |
rUpaM paraM darshitamAtmayogAt.h |
tejomayaM vishvamanantamAdyam.h |
yanme tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvam.h || 47 ||

tAtparya --

`vishvanAmA sa bhagavAn.h yataH pUrNaguNaH' iti pAdme |
`tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM' ityanena tenaivendrasharIreNa
dR^ishhTamiti j~nAyate | tvadanyeneti tvadavarApexayA |
tairapi tadvanna dR^ishhTamityeva |

`vishvarUpaM prathamato brahmA.apashyachchaturmukhaH |
tachchhatAMshena rudrastu tachchhatAMshena vAsavaH |
yathendreNa purA dR^ishhTumapashyat.h so.arjuno.api san.h |
tadanye kramayogena tachchhatAMshAdidarshanaH ||'

-- iti brahmANDe || 47 ||

"He, the Lord, is called Vishva, for being of complete attributes,"
says the Padma. By `tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM' is
indicated the fact that you (Arjuna) alone, in the body of Indra,
had seen it before. By `tvadanyena', people lower than you are
indicated. That they did not see as you saw, thus only.

"The vishva-rUpa was first seen by the Chaturmukha-Brahma;
a hundredth of that by Rudra, and a hundredth of that by the
deities; as had been seen by Indra previously, so too was seen by
Arjuna; other than he, according to worth, was seen a hundredth,
and so forth," says the Brahmanda.

"Therefore, Madhva's reading of `tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM' is to say, "they, the people less than you in worth, did not see as you did." This is stated by Sri Raghavendra as:

tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvamityasya tvatto.adhamairadR^ishhTa-
pUrvamityarthaH | tairapi svayogyatAnurodhena dR^ishhTatve.api
arjunavanna dR^ishhTamityadR^ishhTatvoktiH | tathA tvayA tu
indrasharIreNa dR^ishhTapUrvamityapi tvadanyeneti visheshhaNAllabhyate |

" By saying `tvadanyena na dR^ishhTapUrvaM', that it had never been seen by people lower than you in worth, thus is the meaning. While even such people had seen according to their worth, they had not seen as Arjuna did (i.e., did not have the same grasp), so [by his standard], non-sight is stated. Also, by you (Arjuna), this had been seen previously through the body of Indra -- for that reason, too, "none other than you," such a qualification applies.

"Therefore, Madhva says, as clarified by his commentator, that "none other than you had seen this" means "none who were less than you ever saw as you did," and also that "it was none other than you, who saw this previously [as Indra]."

"While followers of Prabhupada may have any number of objections against this interpretation, it is important to remember that our purpose here is only to establish an irreconcilable difference in this matter between Madhva and Prabhupada, and that is achieved. Egregious as Prabhupada's error in this instance is, it is not the only one; his explanation of the Bhâgavata's `kR^ishhNastu bhagavAn.h svayam.h' is radically opposed to what Madhva has said in his commentary on Bhagavad Gita X-41 and elsewhere. It is clear that Prabhupada lied through his teeth in claiming that his purports followed a "disciplic succession" as claimed.

"In addition, Prabhupada's lack of understanding of even the most basic facts of science and astronomy is manifest, so much so that one wonders if he ever passed high school. Consider for instance what he says under X-21: "There are fifty varieties of winds blowing in space," and later, "It appears from this verse that the moon is one of the stars; therefore the stars that twinkle in the sky also reflect the light of the sun. The theory that there are many suns within the universe is not accepted by Vedic literature. The sun is one, and as by the reflection of the sun the moon illuminates, so also do the stars. Since Bhagavad-gita indicates herein that the moon is one of the stars, the twinkling stars are not suns but are similar to the moon." Incidentally, Madhva reads the verse to say that the moon is not like the stars, so Prabhupada's grand delusion that he is in accordance with a "disciplic succession" of understanding "Vedic literature" cannot be taken seriously.

"In all, a very poor work, which is to be read and understood only for what it most certainly is not -- a qualified, balanced representation of the meaning of the Bhagavad Gita. It is indeed a travesty that it is often taken seriously by those believing it to have the sanction of Madhva. "

(from Dvaita-vada site)

Tantra & Caitanya

There are three chapters given on 'The Meanings of Love' in the research publication : 'The Sacred and Profane Dimensions of Love in Indian Traditions As Exemplified in the Gita Govinda of Jayadeva' by Lee Siegel.Chapters -

1. Caitanya
2. Tantra
3. Sahajiyaa

The chapter on Lord Caitanya is very devotional. Here are some excerpts from the second chapter- Tantra:

A passage in the 'Tantras' instructs the initiate to indulge in forbidden, sexual, incestuous, blasphemous activity in order to secure liberation:

Quote: 'mAtRyonau lingaM kSiptvA bhaginI stana mardanam kRtvA
guror mUrdhni pAdaM dattvA punarjanma na vidyate.'

"...inserting his organ into the mother's womb, pressing his sister's breasts, placing his foot upon his 'Guru's' head, he will be reborn no more."

Perhaps this means simply that he who is liberated is beyond all morality, all good and evil, beyond even 'Dharma'; but the verse is also taken by commentators to be written in a code language, the 'twilight language' or 'intentional language', 'sandhyA-bhASa:

In Hindu tantric practice, the 'organ' is the contemplating mind, the 'mother's womb' is the 'mUlAdhAra' or the base centre of the Yoga body, the 'sister's breasts' are the heart and the throat centre (anAhata and AjJA) respectively, and the 'guru's head' is the brain centre (i.e. the thousand-petalled lotus 'sahasrAra-cakra', also called 'zUnya-cakra'), and the implied instruction is thus translatable: he practices mental penetration through the successive centres, and reaches the uppermost centre, he will not be reborn, as he has there by attained 'nirvikalpa samAdhi'.

Songs, 'carya padas', bearing lose formal resemblance to the 'Gita Govinda', were written by Tantric Buddhist
'siddhAcAryas' from the eighth century on in Bengal in this secret language and one such verse is attributed to
Jayadeva. This is NOT to suggest that the Gitagovinda is written in 'sandhyA bhASa', but Jayadeva was most
likely well aware of Tantric doctrine, practice and language, a language which has an allegorical quality, a kind of transperency, a polydimensional, multi-referential, vitality.

This kind of ambiguity between the sexual and the ascetic is typical of the 'Gitagovinda'.

The basic structure of of the 'Gitagovinda'- the union, separation and reunion of male and female - lends itself to Tantric interpretation, for the Tantrism absolute reality is conceived as a unity which in the process of phenomenalization becomes separated into two, the male and the female. the goal is liberation from phenomenal existence by uniting the male and female, both within and without, both physiologically (the union of the 'kuNDalinI' and the brain)and cosmically (the union of 'Sakti and Shiva).

Radha goes to Krishna for union with Him, just as the 'kuNDalinI goes to the thousand-petalled lotus in the brain; Radha is active, as is the Sakti in Hindu Tantrism. Pandit Sadashiv Rath Sharma of the Jagannath temple in Puri explained to me that the 'Gitagovinda' is understood by the 'Yogins' of Orissa to be a Tantric text:

Radha is the realization of the fourth 'cakra' which is shaped like pillar and situated in the heart. When the 'Yogi' realizes the lig ht in this centre he realizes the great pleasure of Supreme Cheerfulness. Radha is the manifestation of light. Radha is the 'sudarzana cakra'. The 'Gitagovinda' describes the 'maithuna' of Tantra. 'Maithuna' is not just the union between man and woman; when 'kuNDalinI' unites with the centre of selfrealization that is 'maithuna. And the 'UddiSa Tantra' says that when the tip of the tongue touches the tonsil that is also 'maithuna'.

Pandit Rath Sharma had explained also that the 'Gitagovinda' is a great devotional work, 'pure bhakti'; I asked him how Tantrism and 'bhakti' could be reconciled (as the two systems seem to me fundamentally so different);the question did not make a great deal of sense to him(as the two systems seemed to him fundamentally so similar):

In 'bhakti' everything is 'zuddha-prema' purelove. Without 'zuddha-prema' there is nothing. No relatioship with God.

There are two types: 'zArIrika-prema (carnal love) and 'Atmika-prem' (spiritual love).'zAririka-prema can lead to supreme realization when the devotee contemplates the 'maithuna' of Radha and Krishna. When the 'yogi'
meditates this combination in his mind it is the 'maithuna' of superhuman thought. It is the 'maithuna of Tantra'.That is also 'rasa' Such 'rasa' is in the 'Gitagovinda'. Jayadeva related to Krishna as Radha to Krishna. Jayadeva Goswamin was a great 'yogi' and he was full of devotion to Lord Jagannatha.

Historically the reconciliation and coalescence of Krishna bhakti and Tantrism seems to have occured in the Sahajiya-cult.

The Jews STILL don't accept Jesus Christ--so what? The proof is in TASTING the pudding. The trick is, we can only taste fully by feeding EACH OTHER and considering ALL others before ourselves. Then our own lives become the LIVING proof. JAI GAURANGA! JAI RADHE!

[This message has been edited by amanpeter (edited 06-30-2001).]

4. 14
bhagavata-bharata-sastra agama purana
caitanya krsna-avatara prakata pramana
pratyakse dekhaha nana prakata prabhava
alaukika karma, alaukika anubhava
dekhiya na dekhe yata abhaktera gana
uluke na dekhe yena suryera kirana

"Srimad-Bhagavatam, Mahabharata, the Puranas, and other Vedic literatures all give evidence to prove that Sri Caitanya is the avatara or descent of Krsna Himself. One can also directly see Sri Caitanya's manifest influence in His uncommon deeds and uncommon Krsna conscious realization. But faithless unbelievers do not see what is clearly evident, just as owls do not see the
rays of the sun.
(Caitanya Caritamrta-Adi 3.83 - 85)

Who are the self realized acaryas, and who are owls can be left unstated, but still understood. If there is a choice of taking shelter of and listening to the analysis of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura or university professors we know which choice makes spiritual sense and which does not. In Bg. Krsna clearly states that He is only understood by the non envious and by those who render pure devotional service,otherwise not. The absolute truth,His name fame form and pastimes cannot be either approached or comprehended through the materially conditioned senses, including the mind and intellect, let alone so called scholars. Reconciliations of transcendental topics by conditioned souls has little value except to promote further confusions concerning the nature of the absolute truth. Whose critiques of shastra explanantions concerning Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu will actually deliver us from the cycle of birth and death? Those of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura or university professors?

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah!

A new section has been added to our website:

www.gaudiya.net/sahajiya

To counter the rising wave of sahajiyaism, we have compiled several essays, which address and defeat the prominent misconceptions presented by various prakrta-sahajiya groups and other diverted lineages around the pure Gaudiya-sampradaya. Some of them are written by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja,
some by Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja, one by Thakur Bhaktivinode, and some by ourselves. Let the pure Gaudiya lineage be understood in favor of apasiddhantic confusion.



[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 06-30-2001).]

Satyaraja,

I strongly suggest you spend more time studying and less time speaking. You spend too much time jumping through books like a grasshopper, a little here and a little there. As a result your 'understanding' is really a confused mess. I only choose to reply to certain of your posts because you will mislead innocent people with your false statements. Whether your statements are intentionally false, or you are just in a confused state, only you know. I would suggest you find a sat-guru to clear your confusion. Without a spiritual master your grasshopper reading of Vedic literatures will just increase your confusion.

That aside, I had said:

Bhavishya Purana is not an Upapurana. It is one of the 18 maha-puranas. Please refer Vishnu Purana 3.6.20-23. Neither is it obscure.

And Satyaraja replied:

All lists of the Puranas state Bhavishya Purana to be a maha-purana, including that found in the Srimad Bhagavatam. Rather than accepting you are wrong and you don't know the subject, you create a non-existant evidence. This is a very low tactic. Humilty would have been a much better choice of action. Perhaps this is part of the problem with you and your guru. You are unable to accept there is a flaw in your own understanding; and instead you consider the guru to be flawed. That is certainly your personal problem, but do not intentionally mislead people here.

Regarding the Bhagavatams list of Puranas which you claim does not include the Bhavishya Purana, I offer you the following text from the listing of the 18 Puranas (12th khanda, Chapter 13, verse 6):

catur-dasha bhavishyam syat
tatha panca-shatani ca

Thus we see within the Bhagavatam that the Bhavishya Purana is mentioned as one of the 18 maha-puranas containing 14,500 verses. Your statement that the Bhagavatam does not include Bhavishya as one of the 18 maha-puranas is absolutely false and intentionally misleading. Your claim that Bhavishya Purana is an upa-purana is also false. You like to pretend you know many topics, but you just talk in circles without any understanding of what you are saying. 90% of what you post, both when you accepted the Gaudiya view, and when you rejected it was nothing but other people's articles copied and pasted while passing it off as your own material. I can show you where you got each and every of your messages you posted, whom you copied them from, and which websites you took them from. This is certainly not the activity of a scholar. It is actually unethical.

From now on, if anyone is going to copy and paste material from other websites, they must admit to this in the beginning of the message. They must give credit to the author and the website where it was taken from. In the event you are copying word for word from a book, you should mention which book you are quoting from and who the author is.

Also, the same message may not be posted repeatedly to multiple threads. If you do this I will delete the message on all the threads. The same message may not be reposted from time to time for no valid reason. Anyone who violates these rules will be removed.

It is fine to post articles by other people, but the author must be given credit for the material.

Again, in regards to Bhavishya Purana being a maha-purana, please refer to Bhagavata Purana 12.13.6 and Vishnu Purana 3.6.20-23. Every edition of these two Puranas will contain the same list, so it does not matter which recession of the Purana you check.


[This message has been edited by jndas (edited 06-30-2001).]

. . . This fact is only mentioned by Gaudiyas and by no one else. So, they have to prove it with sound sastric evidences (collected before His advent and easily available nowadays) and irrefutable logic arguments. They cannot simply state that those who don't accept Sri Caitanya as an avatara are only atheists and deluded incredulous."


We most certainly can, because it has been so stated by Srila Krsnadas Kaviraj Gosvami. Also in the purport to Adi lila 5.14 from his translation of the Cc. my gurudeva, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written:

". . . Everything, in fact, is inconceivable, for the truth is revealed only to the proper persons. Although there are varieties of personalities, from Brahma down to the insignificant ant, all of whom are living beings, their development of knowledge is different. Therefore we have to gather knowledge from the right source. Indeed, in reality we can get knowledge only from the Vedic sources. The four Vedas, with their supplementary Puranas, the Mahabharata, the Ramayana and their corollaries, which are known as smrtis, are all authorized sources of knowledge. If we are at all to gather knowledge, we must gather it from these sources without hesitation.
Revealed knowledge may in the beginning be unbelievable because of our paradoxical desire to verify everything with our tiny brains, but the speculative means of attaining knowledge is always imperfect. The perfect knowledge propounded in the revealed scriptures is confirmed by the great acaryas, who have left ample commentations upon them; none of these acaryas has disbelieved in the sastras. One who disbelieves in the sastras is an atheist, and we should not consult an atheist, however great he may be. A staunch believer in the sastras, with all their diversities, is the right person from whom to gather real knowledge. Such knowledge may seem inconceivable in the beginning, but when put forward by the proper authority its meaning is revealed, and then one no longer has any doubts about it."
HDGACBSDP
Cc. Adi lila 5.14 purport

We are not bound by the calculations and laukika sraddha of a disobedient disciple who thinks he has the realization that he is correct and his guru was wrong. What was his guru guilty of? Trying to protect him (satyaraj) from prematurely broaching the delicate and advanced subject matter of Radha and Krsna's conjugal lila as outlined by some of the Gosvamis in books like Govinda lilamrta. etc.; His gurudeva also cautioned him that the author and disciple who translated these books are not in line with our guru varga, but come from the sahajiya camp,and if we touch the material they are presenting we should do so with great caution.

Satyaraj says:
Therefore it is a duty of the Gaudiya-vainavas to find out their sastric evidences on Sri Caitanya avatara with
solid and irrefutable quotes following a standard acceptable by most of the sanatana-dharma darsanas including all other Vaisnava-sampradayas, to fulfil the most basic premise of their preachings.
[/QUOTE]

We are not obligated to do anything except try to develop pure bhakti,increase our guru nistha and guru seva. Krsna says in Bg. 4.34 what we are obligated to do if we want to advance in Krsna consciousness. We certainly are not bound by the calculations of a disobedient disciples who has lost faith in his guru varga. All should know the reason, since he wants to attack with avengance the efficacy of our faith in the advent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and our belief in His divinity and theefficacy of the writing of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Sraddha is not something that can be proven to skeptical intellectuals on their terms. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's life example and writing speak for themselves.Realization of the absolute truth is not a subject for debate on the internet. We point the reader to this essay from the introduction to Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's book, Sri Ksna Samhita:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~aryan/SNM/SBTP/nsvd.html

In the past the members of the Sri Sampradaya made similar complaints about the Gaudiya line and challenged its connection to Madhva. IN Jaipura as the siksa disciple and representative of Visvanatha Cakravaty Thakura, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana not only answered all of their doubts but also composed Govinda Bhasya to satisfy their proposal that the guaidyas did not have their own commentary of vedanta Sutra.The Srimad Bhagavatam is accepted by Gaudiyas as the natural commentary on vedanta-sutra.by the author of the veas himself, Dvaipayana Vyasadeva.

We do not accept satyaraj's premise that only evidence from sruti is acceptable concerning Mahaprabhu's divnity. We are followers of the six Gosvamis of Vraja, and in particular Srila Rupa Gosvami. He has stated:

sruti-smrti-puranadi-
pancaratra-vidhim vina
aikantiki harer bhaktir
utpatayaiva kalpate

"Devotional service of the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literatures like the Upanishads, Puranas and Narada Pancaratra is
simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."
(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.101).


Satyaraj's calculations arise from his own frustration in prior failed attempts to "defeat" so called repesentatives of Madhva and others here on indiadivine.
The blunt fact is that you cannot either convince or defeat atheism from the platform of kanistha or even madhyama adhikari. Such "debates" are ill advised. Such forums may satisfy the intellectual curiosity of those so bored and distracted by cyberspace that they negelct sahdana but what can be done?

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises neophyte Vaisnavas to exercise caution in either interacting or discussions with those who maintain an inimical attitude toward our guru varga. He tells us :

"The degree of friendship that madhyama-bhaktas establish with other devotees should be in accordance with the degree of those devotee's avdancement in bhakti. The degree of mercy that the madhyama-bhaktas bestow upon the ignorant depends on the degree of enmity within such people. "
SBT
Jaiva Dharma

But because Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura does not so much try to explain suddha-bhakti to faithless persons and Satyaraj thinks it is our obligation to do so, therefore we can deduce the conflict. Both his gurudeva and our predeccessor acaryas have different ideas than he does and he is not willing to give up his own conceptions in favor of those who have considerably higher realization. Simple matter of attachment to mind and intellect and lack of love and faith.

It is not impossible to extablish the divinity of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to somone with an open and receptive mind, who wants to understand the topic but impossible to even discuss the topic with envious persons.

There are some very clear and inciteful analysis of rasa by Srila Bhaktivnoda Thakura also found in his introduction to Sri Krsna Samhita. If we take note of his historical perspective on how rasa has developed throughout theological history, it becomes apparant why not all the sampradayas are necessarily followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

If there is any interest on this forum I can reproduce a few of the pages in which the Thakura outlines our spiritual history, starting from the sacrifice of Daksa to the present era, but not if others will take that as an opportunty to vilify and minimize the contribution and perspective of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, our preceptor.


[This message has been edited by Puru Das Adhikari (edited 06-30-2001).]

What our Gaudiya Acharyas have done has been to synthesize all the conclusions of the revealed Truth. To extract the essence which is really quite simple, just surrender to God, Love God and serve God and those connected to Him. It's not complicated. It's been a refining process, from the endless volumes of shastra right down to 8 simple prayers of Siksastakam, that is a joyous process of practical experience, that when followed sincerely gives a more than fullfilling and satisfactorary result. It's not a mental gymnasium.
Is it nessacary to take chanting the Holy Names of the Lord back into the broadlands of confusion and argument when these Acharyas have sacrificed their lives to mercifully make this divine gift available to one and all in an approachable form.
If we spend so much time discecting and analyzing every single point, turning every detail into a bone of contention, it will steal our time and energy in extending this grace to the environment where it is truly needed.