I am new to this group, and have been mostly reading and absorbing the
interesting things people have been writing. So please pardon if I do not have
the best grasp of the matter at hand; I am only offering my opinion on what I
see. I hope I am not offending anyone by doing so.

In the above statement, I see another example of what looks to me like
blindered western thinking - that is, a willing disinterest and ignorance in
the cultures that do not behave as ours. We allow our cattle to be mindlessly
slaughtered in factory circumstances, so it must always have been so and be
so now around the world. There is no allowance in this opinion for something
like the Jewish kosher method of slaughter, which must take care to keep the
animal as calm and pain-free as possible, or the way of certain American tribes
of honoring the spirit before, during, and after the kill, and asking the
animal if it is willing to be part of the slaughter. In India, my understanding
is that cows still are not slaughtered at all, so some other animal would be a
better example; in some African countries where they are needed more as a
continuing resource, cattle are merely carefully bled and the blood drunk, and
not often slaughtered.

I do not know whether Kali would be an appropriate goddess for butchers
in some cultures or belief systems. I see the point made in that a worshipper
of a goddess of vengeance would have to reach very far to find a need
vengeance on a docile cow, but I am certainly not aware of all the aspects of
Kali, nor whether her influence as a destructive force for greater good might
come into play in the mindful slaughter of a food animal. But using
illustrations that highlight this constant inablility to see other ways of
looking at things points to an irritating conceit that holds Westerners back and
makes us look like unseeing children to others around the world.

CC ^..^


---In a message dated 10/5/04 11:05:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
SophiasHeaven@... writes:

> She does not slaughter mindlessly as a butcher in a meat packing
> plant, where 1000 cows an hour go down a conveyor belt. She is a perfect
> balance
> of many qualities, has been my perception of her.
> Powerful and capable of great destruction. Formidable when her wrath
> is evoked. But not without rhyme or reason.
>

In a message dated 10/5/2004 3:35:03 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
CelticCoyote@... writes:

> We allow our cattle to be mindlessly
> slaughtered in factory circumstances, so it must always have been so and be
> so now around the world.

THis is ludicrous.
I grew up on a farm.
My mother and brother slaughtered chickens and a goat.
I read a book about the meat industry which is factual. It is a statement
about our blood hunger for meat in America.
And I know Something about India and this culture, being multi-cultured
myself and having learned to see with other cultures not just one, I think India
in
general, religion aside, has no doubt many more vegetarians than we do here
in America.
Excuse me sir. But I live here.
I assume if there are slaughter houses in India, they are not less gruesome,
and I assume perhaps wrongly that there are in some big cities at any rate.
How often do you hear of spiritual leaders arising in AMerica who don't eat
meat? I've never haerd of one -- not until recently. And we do see a trend in
that direction.
Still and all, I SUSPECT that in India individuals east Much Less Meat than
Americans do.
Somebody who is of that culture, please not another American, correct me if I
am wrong.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My statements were not ludicrous at all. I pointed out that your
personal worldview is not necessarily how the world is, and that when it comes
to
taking the life of an animal, one version of slaughter for food is not
necessarily the same as every other. To cry that my position is "ludicrous" in
the face
of facts that I have pointed out to the contrary seems a bit unreasonable,
defensive and frankly disrespectful. I have seen chickens and other animals
slaughtered on many small family farms growing up in rural Indiana - yes, in my
own family as well - and have slaughtered animals myself for food.

You cannot pretend that is the same as the current factory-farm method of
major producers like Tyson and Perdue just because to do so would serve your
argument, especially on the basis of one book that you read. For all I know,
your family followed practices closer to factories than traditional farms. I
know that the two are as different as night and day. What bothers me about
factory farms, I will come right out and say, is not that animals die, but how
they are forced to live.

My pointing out a certain conceit seems justified given your later
assumption, in calling me "sir," that I am male, as well as your assertion that
you
have a stronger position because you live "here," with an assumption everyone
on this worldwide list will know you mean the United States. You kind of make
my point for me, that you are too quick to make assumptions and unwilling to
hear something contrary to the opinion you have formed. By the way, I live in
the United States as well, so you are not showing me anything of which I am
already unaware.

I also disagree about whether the reason for the current sorry state of
US factory-farms can be dismissed as simply as "blood hunger for meat." The
issue of agriculture is a broad and complex one. It would be well-served to
bring an element of the divine into it, as many Pagan organic farmers are trying
to do. The major problem seems to be not some blood-hunger, as though we were
barely-civilized savages waiting for an opportunity to give in to our basest
lust for killing. If that were the case, how does it explain other atrocities
like rendering unwanted dogs and cats into cheap pet food, and rendering dead
cattle and chickens into cheap livestock feed? Factory farms are the sad
result of a slow and sure divorce from the realization that the animals
slaughtered are indeed living, feeling beings and not some prepackaged hamburger
or
spicy wings that just appear magically in the supermarket, and that the sort of
energy we put into raising our food is the same energy that we reap.

I hope this has not gone too far afield of the topic. So many in this
group are so knowledgeable about esoteric things - at present I feel qualified
only to offer my take on the more mundane aspects of these discussions.

CC ^..^

--- In a message dated 10/5/04 3:19:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
SophiasHeaven@... writes:

> THis is ludicrous.
> I grew up on a farm.
> My mother and brother slaughtered chickens and a goat.
> I read a book about the meat industry which is factual. It is a statement
> about our blood hunger for meat in America.
> And I know Something about India and this culture, being multi-cultured
> myself and having learned to see with other cultures not just one, I think
> India in
> general, religion aside, has no doubt many more vegetarians than we do here
> in America.
> Excuse me sir. But I live here.
>

In a message dated 10/5/2004 6:00:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ellen.mcgowen@... writes:

> I worked with many Indians in the software industry in California and
> (remotely, as a consultant) in Bangalore. Perhaps a hundred.
> I only knew two who ate meat. One lived in the US for a long and forced
> himself to learn to eat chicken and shrimp. He use to coat his lunchtime
> cafeteria salad with Tabasco sauce in an effort to make it taste like
something. The
> other was from Kerala. He said he would eat anything, but we used to go out
> to lunch together for dosa and sambar.
>
> [Why do I see Kali smiling as she shakes mad cow disease into those
> slaughterhouses?]..
>
> Jai Ma,
> Ellen

Thanks !
Not to mention the practice of feeding cow body parts back to cows:
blood and diseased body parts are heating ( rendered ) and fed back to the cows,
supposedly heated so hot no germs can survive ( "Dooon't eat it" one cow says
to the other "Sooylent Greens is COWS !!!" ( and the recent scandal about
how chicken slaughter houses kicked and abused their poultry ))
Your experience supports my preconceived notions.

Blessings,
Cathie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am sorry Ellen; buy many is how many? a 100 in one Billion? a 1000? I am an
Indian and even while in India my family - very devout - has been meat eaters. I
know thousands - brahmins; Kshatriyas; vaishyas and Shudras who eat meat.
IMHO your statements are like it's like "listening to an art critic rant about
how awful this Matisse watercolor is, rather he's pointing at a Picasso oil".

Ellen McGowen <ellen.mcgowen@...> wrote:

I worked with many Indians in the software industry in California and (remotely,
as a consultant) in Bangalore. Perhaps a hundred.
I only knew two who ate meat. One lived in the US for a long and forced himself
to learn to eat chicken and shrimp. He use to coat his lunchtime cafeteria salad
with Tabasco sauce in an effort to make it taste like something. The other was
from Kerala. He said he would eat anything, but we used to go out to lunch
together for dosa and sambar.

[Why do I see Kali smiling as she shakes mad cow disease into those
slaughterhouses?]..

Jai Ma,
Ellen


----- Original Message -----
From: SophiasHeaven@...
To: Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Shakti_Sadhana] Re: Kali and the Gunas?


In a message dated 10/5/2004 3:35:03 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
CelticCoyote@... writes:

> We allow our cattle to be mindlessly
> slaughtered in factory circumstances, so it must always have been so and be
> so now around the world.

THis is ludicrous.
I grew up on a farm.
My mother and brother slaughtered chickens and a goat.
I read a book about the meat industry which is factual. It is a statement
about our blood hunger for meat in America.
And I know Something about India and this culture, being multi-cultured
myself and having learned to see with other cultures not just one, I think India
in
general, religion aside, has no doubt many more vegetarians than we do here
in America.
Excuse me sir. But I live here.
I assume if there are slaughter houses in India, they are not less gruesome,
and I assume perhaps wrongly that there are in some big cities at any rate.
How often do you hear of spiritual leaders arising in AMerica who don't eat
meat? I've never haerd of one -- not until recently. And we do see a trend in
that direction.
Still and all, I SUSPECT that in India individuals east Much Less Meat than
Americans do.
Somebody who is of that culture, please not another American, correct me if I
am wrong.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shakti_Sadhana/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Shakti_Sadhana-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shakti_Sadhana/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Shakti_Sadhana-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Today more and more people go veg - it is sad to see to remark in the mail. We
all know that our thoughts and behaviour mostly governed by what we eat. It is
for every Devi Upasak essentially needs tohave Satvik food and way living.

Iyer

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz@...> wrote:

> I am an Indian and even while in
> India my family - very devout - has been meat
> eaters. I know thousands - brahmins; Kshatriyas;
> vaishyas and Shudras who eat meat.

"I pointed out that your personal worldview is not necessarily
how the world is"

Not one person in this club knows how the world is. Or, even if
there is a world.

Our information about 'out there' is conditioned by our senses.
Senses are imperfect and flawed and have very narrow
threshholds. A lot lies outside of the range of the sense. So
while we think of a tree, we are not aware of what that 'tree' truly
is. Where do its boundaries lie. Does it have boundaries. We
are also conditioned by our past experience, our emotions, our
desires such that we create (i.e. imagine) what is not there.

At the prannic level, our perceptions are coloured by our karmic
influences that impede the flow of prana and distort the
operation of the chakras. We are conditioned by our ego and
senses to believe that there actually is an 'out there'.

As we change our consciousness, hopefully to a finer vibration,
we access other, astral planes of existence, from the vantage
point of each one is derived an entirely different concept of the
world, the 'out there'.

But there is no 'out there', no 'inner life'. There is only Brahman.

The purpose of Sadhana, spiritual practice, is remove our
conditioning, to use our senses in a more sophisticated way,
and to channel our prana so that as we access higher and
higher astral planes we eventually come to see ourselves as
Brahman, to see everything and everyone as Brahman, to see
only Brahman. When that happens there is no space or time, no
conditions of any kind.


Omprem








--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, CelticCoyote@a...
wrote:
>
> My statements were not ludicrous at all. I pointed out that your
> personal worldview is not necessarily how the world is, and
that when it comes to
> taking the life of an animal, one version of slaughter for food is
not
> necessarily the same as every other. To cry that my position is
"ludicrous" in the face
> of facts that I have pointed out to the contrary seems a bit
unreasonable,
> defensive and frankly disrespectful. I have seen chickens and
other animals
> slaughtered on many small family farms growing up in rural
Indiana - yes, in my
> own family as well - and have slaughtered animals myself for
food.
>
> You cannot pretend that is the same as the current
factory-farm method of
> major producers like Tyson and Perdue just because to do so
would serve your
> argument, especially on the basis of one book that you read.
For all I know,
> your family followed practices closer to factories than
traditional farms. I
> know that the two are as different as night and day. What
bothers me about
> factory farms, I will come right out and say, is not that animals
die, but how
> they are forced to live.
>
> My pointing out a certain conceit seems justified given your
later
> assumption, in calling me "sir," that I am male, as well as your
assertion that you
> have a stronger position because you live "here," with an
assumption everyone
> on this worldwide list will know you mean the United States.
You kind of make
> my point for me, that you are too quick to make assumptions
and unwilling to
> hear something contrary to the opinion you have formed. By
the way, I live in
> the United States as well, so you are not showing me anything
of which I am
> already unaware.
>
> I also disagree about whether the reason for the current
sorry state of
> US factory-farms can be dismissed as simply as "blood
hunger for meat." The
> issue of agriculture is a broad and complex one. It would be
well-served to
> bring an element of the divine into it, as many Pagan organic
farmers are trying
> to do. The major problem seems to be not some
blood-hunger, as though we were
> barely-civilized savages waiting for an opportunity to give in to
our basest
> lust for killing. If that were the case, how does it explain other
atrocities
> like rendering unwanted dogs and cats into cheap pet food,
and rendering dead
> cattle and chickens into cheap livestock feed? Factory farms
are the sad
> result of a slow and sure divorce from the realization that the
animals
> slaughtered are indeed living, feeling beings and not some
prepackaged hamburger or
> spicy wings that just appear magically in the supermarket, and
that the sort of
> energy we put into raising our food is the same energy that we
reap.
>
> I hope this has not gone too far afield of the topic. So many
in this
> group are so knowledgeable about esoteric things - at present
I feel qualified
> only to offer my take on the more mundane aspects of these
discussions.
>
> CC ^..^
>
> --- In a message dated 10/5/04 3:19:43 PM US Mountain
Standard Time,
> SophiasHeaven@a... writes:
>
> > THis is ludicrous.
> > I grew up on a farm.
> > My mother and brother slaughtered chickens and a goat.
> > I read a book about the meat industry which is factual. It is a
statement
> > about our blood hunger for meat in America.
> > And I know Something about India and this culture, being
multi-cultured
> > myself and having learned to see with other cultures not just
one, I think
> > India in
> > general, religion aside, has no doubt many more vegetarians
than we do here
> > in America.
> > Excuse me sir. But I live here.
> >

My dear Iyer:

isit not a personal choice?

K S Iyer <ksimani@...> wrote:

Today more and more people go veg - it is sad to see to remark in the mail. We
all know that our thoughts and behaviour mostly governed by what we eat. It is
for every Devi Upasak essentially needs tohave Satvik food and way living.

Iyer

--- sankara menon <kochu1tz@...> wrote:

> I am an Indian and even while in
> India my family - very devout - has been meat
> eaters. I know thousands - brahmins; Kshatriyas;
> vaishyas and Shudras who eat meat.




Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shakti_Sadhana/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Shakti_Sadhana-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]