>we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual
>differentiation exist at every realm of society and even Shakthi is
>not spared.

Yes, humans have a way of distorting things!

If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot
out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the
Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. He goes into a whole series
of stories in which Shakti resists being thrust into subordinate
roles, acts out female sovereignty, or demonstrates her potency and
omnipresence to Shiva. "Many of the Mahavidyas seem to mock the
pativrata ideal and to present an alternative social role that is
almost its exact opposite." These tales assert that truth and justice
trump man-made hierarchies.

Max
--
Max Dashu
Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History
http://www.suppressedhistories.net
Paintings of bold and spirited women
http://www.maxdashu.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There you are priya. Another set of books for you to read on. I have
several collections of David Kinsley's book including the one
mention by Max. Now you understand why its best for you to come to
KL.



--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Max Dashu <maxdashu@...>
wrote:
>
> >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual
> >differentiation exist at every realm of society and even Shakthi
is not spared.
>
> Yes, humans have a way of distorting things!
>
> If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot
> out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the
> Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. He goes into a whole
series
> of stories in which Shakti resists being thrust into subordinate
> roles, acts out female sovereignty, or demonstrates her potency
and
> omnipresence to Shiva. "Many of the Mahavidyas seem to mock the
> pativrata ideal and to present an alternative social role that is
> almost its exact opposite." These tales assert that truth and
justice
> trump man-made hierarchies.
>
> Max
> --
> Max Dashu
> Suppressed Histories Archives Global Women's History
> http://www.suppressedhistories.net
> Paintings of bold and spirited women
> http://www.maxdashu.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi I have that book and you are indeed very right!

thanks
priya

--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Max Dashu <maxdashu@...>
wrote:
> > Priya wrote:
> >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual
> >differentiation exist at every realm of society and
> >even Shakthi is
> >not spared.
>
> Yes, humans have a way of distorting things!
>
> If you are interested in tracking this dynamic, you will get a lot
> out of David Kinsley's Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine: the
> Ten Mahavidyas, UC Berkeley Press, 1997. [....]

Dear Priya
If i have understood you right your question is also concernend with
the historic development of Shaktism, since the order of the quoted
scriptures seem to suggest a timeline pointing to more acceptance
of the importance of devi during the course of time.
I dont think this reflects actual facts though one can come to this
conclusion basing the judgement on literary evidence.
But to understand the historical development of the status of the
goddess compared with the male gods, it is insufficent to rely on the
shastras only.
Only a small percentage of the inhabitants of India cared about
writing, the majority did not, and these who did care came from a
specific strata of society only, they were mainly involved in an
aniconic worship of prominently male deities, with a few female
exceptions that slipped through the system, but these female deity
were in an inferior position.
That is why the evidence in the shastras only mirrors the prevailing
state, in that historic moment, of the acceptance or non acceptance
of shakti in this learnend community only, and does not indicate the
role of shakti in all the differing strata of society. We do not know
what the majority of the simpler people where occupied with on the
basis of the evidence provided in the shastras, even if we would
consider all of them (much less can we judge the historical timeline
from the few examples you mentionend)

Scriptural evidence seems to indicate that the godess is a late
addition to the indian pantheon or at least rose to prominence at
a later date, while archeological evidence and survey of the still
existing traditions that are transmitted orally and by diverse
customs, shows that the iconic worship of the goddess in India
originated from earlier neolithic traditions and it seems to be a
considerably more widespread common human heritage, the Indians
shared with at least the early iranian sumerian and maybe other
inhabitants of western asia.
It is only that the worship of the male aniconic gods was more
widesprad in that community that transmitted the written documents
that are available to us now.
The Cult of the Goddess was never that much embraced by the learnend
in India,than by the majority of Asians, neither in the past nor
today, that is why the evidence in written documents can only
reflect a partial picture of the Goddess. Maybe a picture where she
and her role in indian society is not accurately described and maybe
she was more prominent in the actual religious practice and life of
the majority of the people than it is suggested by her presence in
the shastras.
There are many people that are not learnend and cannot read or write
but that nonetheless transmit vital elements of the goddess religion.
Because they are not learned the goddess is teaching them directly
and is present amongst them. Here knowledge often is derived from
the deity not the shastra or the guru.
This is described in an interview, a simple newari woman, a bhakta of
Harati Devi says about her way to become a healer:
Raj Kumari: [My] guru is Dhana Tatà.(daughter of Harati) After Dhana
Tatà came into [mybody], the god explained everything to my mother's
brother [pàju]. "This has to be done and that has to be done in this
way, and this has to be said", all this was explained to my pàju.
Consequently, my pàju has to come every Tuesday and Saturday to offer
rice spirit. Everything was explained [like that at that time]
..(…) And if there is anything now to tell, Dhana Tatà says it all to
my pàju. (…)Afterwards he repeats it all to me. "Today, [the goddess]
Tatà told me this:`Today, you have to follow the rule [niyam] in this
way'". That's how it is said."Today, you shouldn't eat this. Today
you should only eat fruit. Today you should only drink milk. Today
you should eat rice only once", my pàju repeats every detail to me.
[I] do not have any other teacher [guru]. Nobody has given a
mantra [to me]. Nothing [has been given to me].Shamsher: When you
were given the àsan, was there nobody [like a guru]?
Raj Kumari: [There was] nobody. Only the mother [Hàratã]. Only Dhana
Tatà. Only the mother. (…) I do not have any teacher [guru]. I follow
whatever is said by the goddess. Whatever is said [by goddess], I
simply follow. I don't know about other things.

Hàratã: (the goddess speaking while in the body of raj kumari) We
[gods] are not here [on earth] just to give darsana without any
reason. [There is a reason] to give darsana in this [distinct and
visible] form.
Nowadays, in the Iron age [Kaliyuga] children [the people] think,
that there is no god, people commit unjustice and ordinary people
can't live that way; sin and greed increases [and] thus in order to
help those children who suffer, to help others, to give knowledge, to
[those who are] uneducated [I] came to speak in a clear form to the
children."

Chandika (another newari woman healer): "The mothers [goddesses] do
not come where there isn't any suffering [dukha]. I have thought a
lot [about this]. The mothers come only to places where there is
suffering through either sickness, poverty, or any other kind of
obstacle".

quoted from:
(Bhakti und Shakti,Brigitte Merz)

I recommend Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas books : "The indian Mother
goddess" and "History of the tantric religion" these books consider
shastric as well as archeological evidence.
Mahahradanatha


>Here is my qsn again and I can see Nora has already posted it: Shiva
>was seen as supreme in the Svetasvatara Upanishads while in the
>Markndeya Purana, Shakthi is glorified and regains her status as the
>Supreme Mother Goddess.
>Then again in Devi Bhagavata Purana, it marks the ascendancy of
>Shakthi into the Puranic genre of Devi, the Goddess as the supreme
>matrix."
>Which is it?

> > > Priya wrote:
> > >we are living in an earthly space and gender bias and sexual
> > >differentiation exist at every realm of society and
> > >even Shakthi is
> > >not spared.

--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "mahahradanatha"
<mahahradanatha@...> wrote:

> I recommend Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas books : "The indian Mother
> goddess" and "History of the tantric religion" these books consider
shastric as well as archeological evidence.
> Mahahradanatha


Narendra Nath Bhattarchayas another book worth reading for those
wanting to get an understanding of the Shaktas: History of the Sakta
Religion.