> This is not a record of a certain outlook it is a record of man.
And don't forget all wars before christianity. The Roman Empire and
Djingis Kahn and Alexander the Great.
>
> We also have Japan during ww2 not to mention all wars of communism.
>
We are talking about a religion and a philosophy and there is
something especially sinister about a religion claiming that all
these sadistic torturings and killings and man hunts with mostly
children and woman and innocent civilians that died just because
they where not of christian faith, while the Christians claimed that
these are good religious deeds and were even proud of killing
chilren and woman. The killings done in a war are something
different.
And please look at the numbers of victims again: (and this is only a
small excerpt ( http://ethnikoi.org/terror.html )

When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the
Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were
dead.

60 millions !

Jerusalem was conquered in 15/07/1099 with more than 60,000 victims
(Jewish and Moslem, men, women and children). [WW37-40] In the
words of one witness: "There [in front of Solomon's temple] was such
a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our
foes", and after that "… happily and crying for joy our people
marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt
of gratitude."

The Archbishop of Tyre who was an eyewitness wrote: "It was
impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror;
everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was
covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle
of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that
roused the horror of all that looked upon them. Still more dreadful
was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from
head to foot. An ominous sight, which brought terror to all who met
them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about
ten thousand infidels perished

Until the fall of Akkon in 1291 there were probably 20 million
victims of the crusades, in Palestine and the Moslem territories
alone.
The Albigensians, or Cathars viewed themselves as "good Christians",
but did not accept Catholicism, church-taxes, and the prohibition of
birth control. [NC] The terror began in 1209, on Pope Innocent
III's command; he was the greatest single pre-Nazi mass murderer.
Beziers, France was destroyed (22/07/1209) and all its inhabitants
slaughtered. Victims included Catholics refusing to turn over their
heretic neighbours. 20,000-70,000 died.
In the witch-hunting era (1484-1750), according to modern scholars,
several hundred thousand (80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]

> I think it is wrong to cathegorize people as you do.


Yes it is wrong.

But the whole planet will be destroyed if the 3 in 1 : Christianity
plus globalization plus US domination suceeds.

That is why one must by all means bring these matters up even if it
means to provoke and categorize

> But there was a long-standing tradition of the US
> government providing assistance for the poor and
> handicapped.

Not so long-standing. Some of this began in the 1930s, and got much
larger in the 1960s, but nothing older than that.

>Why is the Bush administartion
> eliminating this? ...
> The United States Constitution is founded on a notion
> called "separation of Church and State." The current
> administration seems especially bent on eliminating
> the separation.

You answered your own question. Mr. Bush wants power transfered from
the government to the churches. He wants his own narrow brand of
Christianity making the laws for the country.
It is important to note that not all Christians agree with Mr.
Bush. Some of the more liberal groups such as Methodists and
Congregationalists have been openly opposing his policies, trying to
stop him.

> I have friends who are atheists. It doesn't seem a
> sensible attitude to me, but aren't they allowed to
> believe (or dis-believe) whatever they want?

Traditionally, yes, but their rights are under attack. In much more
serious position are the moslems. The government has been persecuting
moslems in direct violation of the constitution.

>Will
> they be left without any recourse for assistance?

Possibly.

> Bush's insistance that T-cell rsearch be forbidden,
> when the fetuses the T-cells will be taken from are to
> be destroyed, anyway -- does that make sense? If he's
> so concerned with preserving human life, pull the
> troops out of Iraq!

I certainly agree. Invading Iraq was a stupid and immoral action.
Many many Americans agree.

Sister Usha

> If Hindus do not do what they are supposed to do, the fault is not in
Hinduism.

I was just rereading your posts and found this very wise statement that
I had overlooked. This is very true and very astute.
But can you blame Jesus and Christianity if people claiming to be
Christians have ignored Jesus and his teachings? It is the fault of the
followers, not the founder and not of his faith.
Let me repeat. Yes, people claiming to be Christians have done
some horrible things in history. But Jesus taught peace and love and
charity. Some Christians follow his teachings and therefore you
overlook them in your listings of the crimes that alleged Christians
have committed. There are other wonderful things that true Christians
have done that you overlook.

Sister Usha

Sister Usha Devi <sisterusha@...> wrote:

I am greatly saddened by hearing such hatred coming from people who profess to
be Hindus. I think of Hinds as being above this sort of thing, but perhaps I am
mistaken.


Hindus are far above these things; but it comes to a stage where we have to
speak ot.

Do ou think putting Hindu Gods on Toilet seats and wipes and shoes are random
actions ? I do not think so, it is part of a concerted campaign. What do we do?
Turn the other cheek? I am fed up with this subtle propaganda. I am also fed up
with harping on our tolerance while that tolerance is absent among the
Christians.


I have had much more experience with Christians than you, having lived in a
predominately Christian country for many years and visited many of their
churches. I already said in my previous post that I have seen some examples of
Christians acting badly but other examples of them acting nobly and charitably.
Perhaps you have not seen their charity and their kindness, but this does negate
the fact that I have
seen it myself.


Why do you assume I know less of Christianity? I was taught Christianity by a
person who later became a Cardinal. Poor man faced isolation beause he advocated
inter-religious dialoge. I come from a State that has a sizable population so I
know them.




And I have seen much tolerance of people of other faiths among Christians.
********

*****************

I have seen good Christians and bad Christians. But I am not talking of
individuals but of the organized monolith that used things like the vatican Bank
to launder drug money and mafia money.




Let me further ask you this question: What good comes from you continuing
to say such hateful things about the members of other faiths? Does it make the
world a better place to keep telling everyone how evil Christians are? Does this
help bring peace to the world? No. Quite the contrary, it fosters mistrust and
further animosity. Do you wish to be known as the spreader of hatred?

Very nice; what are you asking? That Hindus e tolerant while the Churh continues
its depradations?



*******************
Sister Usha







__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What is the toll now ? I think something like 15 % of the world
population is using aroud 85 & of ALL the world resources?

...and they still need more all other countries in econmic dependence
(globalization=modern colonialism) and debt and agrressive wars against
iraq ..maybe . iran and what then?
>

Being tolerant is commendable. But allowing onesself
to be abused and mistreated is not going to improve
things.

Lars complimented me for my honesty -- he said most
people would be ashamed of being poor, and keep quiet
about it. I believe in crying out about injustice,
and fighting for the rights of the underpriviledged.
It is the squeeky wheel that gets the grease.

-- Len/ Kalipadma


--- sankara menon <kochu1tz@...> wrote:

>
>[from Sister Usha]
> Let me further ask you this question: What good
> comes from you continuing to say such hateful things
> about the members of other faiths? Does it make the
> world a better place to keep telling everyone how
> evil Christians are? Does this help bring peace to
> the world? No. Quite the contrary, it fosters
> mistrust and further animosity. Do you wish to be
> known as the spreader of hatred?
>
> Very nice; what are you asking? That Hindus e
> tolerant while the Churh continues its depradations?
>



__________________________________
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Hi, guys. I have been watching this silly argument and laughing. You
guys are shouting at each other but not listening to each other. Let
me give you a fresh perspective from a former Chrisitian.

Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde and of
Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the Lutheran
variety. She is very, very conservative and very strict about
Christian moral values. I came to resent this when I was a teenager,
and by the time I was 15 I passionately hated my mother and her
religion.

Fortunately, years ago, my uncle visited India and met a beautiful
woman there named Usha. Wisest woman in the entire history of the
world. He married her and brought her home to the USA. I decided I
wanted to join her and worship Kali instead of Jesus, so my Auntie
Usha started teaching me years ago. Wonderful teacher she is.

One thing my Auntie Usha taught me is that nobody has a monopoly on
wisdom. Everybody has something to teach and only a fool thinks he or
she has nothing to learn. Every religion has to have something
positive to teach. Nobody would believe in it otherwise. My Auntie
Usha practices this herself. Even if she dislikes somebody's faith,
she will sit there listening patiently, trying to learn everything
she can. Nothing will change her own faith in Kali, she says, but by
studying other religions she can come to understand Kali better.
Jesus and Allah and all the thousands of other names people have used
for the divine are all different names for the great and glorious
Mother Kali.

Now, as for what you guys have been saying about the evils of
Christianity, that is just silly. Yes, there were horrible things
that happened centuries ago, but everybody else in the world at that
time did things like too. How many people did the Mongols kill? The
Chinese during all their civil wars and such? The Turks? I could go
on and on. I don't give a damn who did what centuries ago. Ask what
is going on now.

And don't blame Christianity for what that imbecile cowboy in the
White House is doing. There are many Christians who oppose Bush and
join our prostest rallies trying to stop him. He is twisting
Christinity for his own purposes. Even my conservative minister
mother agrees with that.

My mother always quoted Jesus in church every Sunday when she was
preaching. She taught love and peace and charity. There was always
some sort of charity drive raising money for the poor. And people did
give lots of money. I don't think any of it left the country. I think
it all went to the other side of our city, to help poor people right
here in America, people with no jobs and no food. And we just passed
the stuff out to the poor people without even asking what church they
went to. No proselytizing. Just pure charity. My mother taught that
we would be rewarded in heaven if we gave without asking for anything
in return.

This is not what I hated about my mother's religion. I hated the part
about her telling me what to wear and where I could go and what I
could do with my friends, espeically the boys. That I hated.

My auntie Usha said that there are hundreds of Christian groups
around, and it is silly to blame all Christians for what some bad
people calling themselves Christians have been doing. Right as usual,
my wise Auntie Usha. Maybe there are some bad people in India calling
themselves Christians but ignoring the teachings of Jesus. I don't
doubt that. But there are millions of other Christians who do follow
Jesus and do good things that you people are ignoring.

I don't hate my mother's religion now. My Auntie Usha taught me not
to. I am not Christian and never will be again. But I accept that
that is what works for my mother, so let her do whatever makes her
happy.

So you guys please stop all this silly name-calling and talk about
something more positive.

Jai Mahakali!

Yvonne

Yvonne wrote: Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde
and of Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the
Lutheran variety. She is very, very conservative and very strict
about Christian moral values. I came to resent this when I was a
teenager, and by the time I was 15 I passionately hated my mother and
her religion.


Interesting. Ive read that introduction many times and how often you
come here praising your aunty usha all the time etc.... It seems to
me like some self promotion strategy. Now I want to ask : are you
what you claim yourself to be? I have this image keeps on coming to me
is that behind these two character there is that some young aspiring
fiction character trying very hard to convince the list here that such
character as Sister Usha and Yvonne exist. They both makes a very
interesting character dont you agree. The real person behind all this
is sitting in silence watching having a good laugh.

Oh! he is indeed with us here in the group!

--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, sankara menon <kochu1tz@y...>
wrote [to Sister Usha]:
> [....]
> Do ou think putting Hindu Gods on Toilet seats and
> wipes and shoes are random actions ? [....]

You forgot stockings. Also on stockings and socks. And beer bottles!

> I do not think so;
> it is part of a concerted campaign. [....]

Rather than "random", I'd use the word "stupid" or "ignorant."
I wouldn't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity or
ignorance. It's not quite a cheerful thought, but ignorance *is* the
more common commodity.

--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Len Rosenberg
<kalipadma108@y...> wrote:

> But there was a long-standing tradition of the US
> government providing assistance for the poor and
> handicapped. Why is the Bush administartion
> eliminating this?

Thought you might appreciate the following quote, off-topic though
it might be:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security,
unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs,
you would not hear of that party again in our political history.
There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you
can do these things. Among them are [...] a few [...] Texas oil
millionaires and an occasional politician or businessman from other
areas. Their number is negligible and THEY ARE STUPID."

[Emphasis added]

[U.S. President] Dwight D. Eisenhower
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/ike.asp

> [....] And don't forget the
> negative effects of greed. Desire for oil, desire for
> control, desire for power-over. [....]

Would you mind elaborating a little further?

This sudden love of CATHOLICISM had me wondering too. Mind you what was being
defended was not CHRISTIANITY but catholicism!!

And when the questions and details became too uncomfortable and irrefutable,
there was a withdrawal and entry of a new charector with an air of superiority
(the basic charecterestic of a missionary or evangelist). but everything comes
with a triad no? who is the third? is it a teacher or is it a bookseller? I am
not sure. The seedy bookshop seems closed most of the time though.

As someone said, on the net one can masqurade as anything. Not that it matters.
Let us look at the writing and not the writer. So it does not matter whether it
is Curazon, Usha or Yvonne or the part time lecturer or seedy bookseller. Lets
look at the writing.


NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...> wrote:
Yvonne wrote: Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde and of
Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the Lutheran variety.
She is very, very conservative and very strict about Christian moral values. I
came to resent this when I was a teenager, and by the time I was 15 I
passionately hated my mother and
her religion.


Interesting. Ive read that introduction many times and how often you come here
praising your aunty usha all the time etc.... It seems to me like some self
promotion strategy. Now I want to ask : are you what you claim yourself to be?
I have this image keeps on coming to me is that behind these two character there
is that some young aspiring fiction character trying very hard to convince the
list here that such character as Sister Usha and Yvonne exist. They both makes a
very interesting character dont you agree. The real person behind all this is
sitting in silence watching having a good laugh.

Oh! he is indeed with us here in the group!





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Would you mind elaborating a little further?

This sudden love of CATHOLICISM had me wondering too. Mind you what was being
defended was not CHRISTIANITY but catholicism!!

And when the questions and details became too uncomfortable and irrefutable,
there was a withdrawal and entry of a new charector with an air of superiority
(the basic charecterestic of a missionary or evangelist). but everything comes
with a triad no? who is the third? is it a teacher or is it a bookseller? I am
not sure. The seedy bookshop seems closed most of the time though.

As someone said, on the net one can masqurade as anything. Not that it matters.
Let us look at the writing and not the writer. So it does not matter whether it
is Brother Curazon, Usha or Yvonne or the part time lecturer or seedy
bookseller. Lets look at the writing.


NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...> wrote:
Yvonne wrote: Hi! My name is Yvonne. I am 22, American, tall, blonde and of
Norwegian ancestry. My mother is a Christian minister of the Lutheran variety.
She is very, very conservative and very strict about Christian moral values. I
came to resent this when I was a teenager, and by the time I was 15 I
passionately hated my mother and
her religion.


Interesting. Ive read that introduction many times and how often you come here
praising your aunty usha all the time etc.... It seems to me like some self
promotion strategy. Now I want to ask : are you what you claim yourself to be?
I have this image keeps on coming to me is that behind these two character there
is that some young aspiring fiction character trying very hard to convince the
list here that such character as Sister Usha and Yvonne exist. They both makes a
very interesting character dont you agree. The real person behind all this is
sitting in silence watching having a good laugh.

Oh! he is indeed with us here in the group!





---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shakti_Sadhana/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Shakti_Sadhana-unsubscribe (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mahahradanatha wrote:

>
>
>And please look at the numbers of victims again: (and this is only a
<small excerpt ( http://ethnikoi.org/terror.html )

Don't forget that the murderers were of male sex...

What is your comment to that?

Lars


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]