sephirah5 wrote: Well, as to knowing how one has
become "enlightened", I started to get an inkling that "it" had
happened when I happened to read some personal accounts of people
who were "realized" and I found I knew EXACTLY what they were
talking about because similar things had and were happening to me.

Good Morning Sephirah, Thank you.

"Mind is the source of freedom and also of bondage"
[Mind according to Vedanta, Swami Satprakashananda]

A mind can trap us in our own illusion.

Well, someday when it happens to you, maybe then you
will understand what I am saying...
Lilith M.
--- NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...>
wrote:

>
> sephirah5 wrote: Well, as to knowing how one has
> become "enlightened", I started to get an inkling
> that "it" had
> happened when I happened to read some personal
> accounts of people
> who were "realized" and I found I knew EXACTLY what
> they were
> talking about because similar things had and were
> happening to me.
>
> Good Morning Sephirah, Thank you.
>
> "Mind is the source of freedom and also of bondage"
> [Mind according to Vedanta, Swami Satprakashananda]
>
> A mind can trap us in our own illusion.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




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Sephirah5 wrote: Well, someday when it happens to you, maybe then
you will understand what I am saying...

Perhaps Sephire! Perhaps! but again, when it ever happens or will
it ever happen , will I know? To be honest, I rather not want to
know about it. I rather not look forward for that day. To me a state
of realization and enlightment is what others see in you and not
what you see into yourself. Once you start to be conscious of
yourself, that is when delusion begin.

In Tripura Rahasya : Parasurama remarked about Sage Samvarta, "His
greatness was like red hot coal hidden in embers. Every inch of his
body filled one with exhilaration so that I have a refreshing
feeling in his mere proximity."

--- NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...>
wrote:

>
> Sephirah5 wrote: Well, someday when it happens to
> you, maybe then
> you will understand what I am saying...
>
> Perhaps Sephire! Perhaps! but again, when it ever
> happens or will
> it ever happen , will I know? To be honest, I rather
> not want to
> know about it. I rather not look forward for that
> day. To me a state
> of realization and enlightment is what others see in
> you and not
> what you see into yourself. Once you start to be
> conscious of
> yourself, that is when delusion begin.
###############################################
I disagree; Ramakrishna certainly demonstrated that
he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at one
point set out to describe the complete experience to
his devotees, but when he attempted to explain what
happened after achieving the level of "ajna", he kept
slipping into samadhi, and thus was unable to complete
the description! One begins to detach from one's ego
and observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and
thus delusion is not possible. The Mother is there at
all times to prevent this happening; just as
Ramakrishna, possessed by Kali, spun about and slapped
Rani Rasmani's face right in the middle of puja to
correct her for her thinking about worldly matters at
that moment instead of concentrating on the worship,
the Mother stands ready to prevent her faithful
devotee from slipping into delusion and worldliness at
all times. But this happens only after one has proven
to the Mother that one wants Her to the exclusion of
all else!
################################################
>
> In Tripura Rahasya : Parasurama remarked about Sage
> Samvarta, "His
> greatness was like red hot coal hidden in embers.
> Every inch of his
> body filled one with exhilaration so that I have a
> refreshing
> feeling in his mere proximity."
>
>
>
>
>


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Lili Masamura wrote: I disagree; Ramakrishna certainly demonstrated
that he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at one point set
out to describe the complete experience to his devotees, but when he
attempted to explain what happened after achieving the level
of "ajna", he kept slipping into samadhi, and thus was unable to
complete the description! One begins to detach from one's ego and
observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and thus delusion is
not possible.


yes Lili you have just said it : One begins to detach from one's
ego ... Did Ramakrishna Or Amritanandamata publicly tell others :
hey! I am the realise one. I am the enlightened one! They show it by
their actions. That is what I am saying all the time : your action
is the prove of your state of being.

Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are ONLINE here,
and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER
than words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are
circumstances that Ramakrishna and all the other great
saints did not have to contend with! The very best way
to test anyone making such grandiose claims is to ask
pertinent questions, rather than jumping feet first
into ridicule and denigration. Surely you must have
tested your own guru first before you sat at his feet?
If not, well, then, you get the guru you deserve! I am
prepared to share information; in fact I have been
doing this all along. I have even invited people to
talk to me offlist if they wish. I have made no secret
of the methods, but nobody is remotely interested in
further information..one would think people who
express so much interest in attainment would at least
be mildly curious, but no, not at all. This simply
demonstrates the lack of sincere desire for God which
is, of course, the mark of the Kali Yuga.
Lilith M.
--- NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...>
wrote:

>
> Lili Masamura wrote: I disagree; Ramakrishna
> certainly demonstrated
> that he was aware that he had "attained"; he even at
> one point set
> out to describe the complete experience to his
> devotees, but when he
> attempted to explain what happened after achieving
> the level
> of "ajna", he kept slipping into samadhi, and thus
> was unable to
> complete the description! One begins to detach from
> one's ego and
> observe it as it goes about its worldly life, and
> thus delusion is
> not possible.
>
>
> yes Lili you have just said it : One begins to
> detach from one's
> ego ... Did Ramakrishna Or Amritanandamata publicly
> tell others :
> hey! I am the realise one. I am the enlightened one!
> They show it by
> their actions. That is what I am saying all the time
> : your action
> is the prove of your state of being.
>
>
>
>




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Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are ONLINE
here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER than
words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are circumstances that
Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not have to contend
with! ..



Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you want
to consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be. Gosh!
How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!!

Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too

--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "NMadasamy" <nmadasamy@s...>
wrote:
>
> Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't noticed, we are
ONLINE
> here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action" OTHER than
> words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are circumstances
that
> Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not have to contend
> with! ..
>
>
>
> Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you
want
> to consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be.
Gosh!
> How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!!

One of the signs of God-realization is joy.
There is absolutely no hesitancy in such a person,
who is like an ocean in joyous waves.
But deep beneath the surface,
there is profound silence and peace.

---Sri Ramakrishna


These are from Rumi, (I'm pretty sure, some of it may be Hafiz...):

If a torrent of love for spirit has gone by,
where is the streambed? Why are you sour?


Don't be absorbed in the waterwheel's motion
Turn your gaze to the river
.... there are several signs in eyes that see all the way to the ocean.
Bewilderment is one.
Those who look out to sea become the sea,
and they can't speak about that.
On the beach there's desire-singing and rage-ranting,
the elaborate language-dance of personality,
but in the waves and underneath
there's no volition, no hypocrisy,
just love forming and unfolding...


And this from China, no attribution:

Like a stream of music flowing throughout the whole being.


the Book of the Yellow Court:

The great Tao plays! Wonderful peace! Wonderful peace!
Concentrate to the utmost all your willpower
in order to contemplate the true One of the Tao...



And from Lao Tze:

I let my heart revel
where things had their beginning.



Dark! Dark! Mystery! Mystery!
In the center there are Essences, most true Essences.

---Hun-Yuan Huang-Di Sheng-Zhi

M
--
Max Dashu
Suppressed Histories Archives
Global Women's History
http://www.suppressedhistories.net

Mary Ann wrote: Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too


hahhaaaa Mary Ann. No wonder people are running away from us. We
sound like cannibals. What do you like to eat? MEAT.

Maybe time to tell others : Please save yourself from us eh!

Thank you, Nora, I knew you would eventually understand. Have one on me.

Lilith M.

--- NMadasamy <nmadasamy@...>
wrote:
>
> Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you say. Hey! if you want to
> consider yourself as one of the realized one, so let it be. Gosh!
> How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all drink to that !!!!
>
> Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't
> noticed, we are ONLINE
> here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any "action"
> OTHER than
> words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are
> circumstances that
> Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not
> have to contend
> with! ..

Don't forget the fish, parched grain and the "making
whoopee" as well! Might as well cover all bases!
Lilith M.
--- Mary Ann <buttercookie61@...> wrote:

>
>
> Yes, and we can eat some meat to celebrate, too
>
> --- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "NMadasamy"
> <nmadasamy@s...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Lili Masamura wrote: Well, in case you hadn't
> noticed, we are
> ONLINE
> > here, and it is hard to demonstrate by any
> "action" OTHER than
> > words, when nobody can SEE anyone else! These are
> circumstances
> that
> > Ramakrishna and all the other great saints did not
> have to contend
> > with! ..
> >
> >
> >
> > Lili! Lili! My dear darling Lili. Whatever you
> say. Hey! if you
> want
> > to consider yourself as one of the realized one,
> so let it be.
> Gosh!
> > How fortunate we are in Shakti Sadhana. Lets all
> drink to that !!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





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"One of the signs of God-realization is joy."

All this is true, of course. But the essential personality remains as well.
Realized people, despite being filled with joy, do not necessarily behave
towards others in a "saintly" fashion. The great Ma Tara devotee and saint
Bamakhepa ("Crazy saint") would behave in antisocial ways, throwing shit at
people, insulting and verbally abusing them, never wore clothes, and smoked his
chillum (hashish pipe) incessantly, while wandering around in the cremation
ground where he lived all his life. One of Ammaji's devotees, in "Women Saints
of India" describes encountering an avadhuta who merely sat in a corner, and
would spit on and insult people who came for his darshan. Ammaji would sit there
with him while he would spit on her, and then remark after they left, "He's
really in the Supreme state!", and the devotees would all chorus, "Oh! If that's
the "supreme state" I don't want anything to do with it!", and Mother would
respond, "You cannot understand until you yourself have realized, why he is like
that!"

Ammaji herself went through the avadhut state, wandering alone around in the
jungle, eating any old thing she was given or able to find, and sitting
motionless or dancing in the torrential monsoon rains for hours. Ramakrishna
would wander about naked, oblivious to his condition, or indeed, to anything
else, when he was going through the early part of his samadhi. So, hanging on to
the illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a physical embodiment
of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular definition will
seriously hamper one in the recognition of the "realization" of
one's own self, or of others!

Lilith M.

--- Max Dashu <maxdashu@...> wrote:

> One of the signs of God-realization is joy.

In a message dated 2/7/2005 7:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lars@... writes:
I for one wouldn't choose what appears as an idiot as my teacher.
It's a tough call isn't it!

I mean if a person totally manifested a type of "white light" flowery
consciousness people could call him realized, BUT

What if someone manifested a totally "evil" consciousness, would people say
the same things about them? Was Hitler enlightened? Of course, we would all say
NO!

There is something terrifying when we se the divine manifest destructively,
even recently we can see the damage done by the Tsunami and everyone wonders
why? It's easy to see the death and destruction and forget that we wouldn't be
here if it wasn't for Ma's creative aspect in the first place. Thank you Ma
Kali!

Well nature carries me to awestruck levels of delight and terrifies me also!
So what are the signs of a realized person? How do you judge? Would they be
full of love, or hate, or perhaps something completely other? I have never met a
realized person to that degree to answer.

How do I even find a Guru knowing there are so many varieties about?! I
certainly always try to follow my heart on these things, but I dont think it can
be
easily defined at all.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lili wrote:

"So, hanging on to the illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a
physical embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular
definition will seriously hamper one in the recognition of the "realization" of
one's own self, or of others!"


But how do we know that the persons you refered to are realized and not
suffering from psychic illness?

I for one wouldn't choose what appears as an idiot as my teacher.


Lars


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swastik108@... wrote:

"So what are the signs of a realized person? How do you judge? Would they be
full of love, or hate, or perhaps something completely other? I have never met a
realized person to that degree to answer."

The best book I have read describing Self-realization or Enlightment is The
Three Pillars of Zen: Teaching, Practice, and Enlightenment by Philip Kapleau
Roshi.

Reda more:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...comasia/103-4\
454492-4431059

Whne you read it it's almost so you get a foot in the state of Enlightment.

In his "Bible" about yoga Feuerstein describes enlighted persons who behave odd
showing that they are not any longer slave to cultural values.

But that is one thing, behaving like a complete idiot another.

Regards

Lars


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swastik108 wrote: "So what are the signs of a realized person? How
do you judge? Would they be full of love, or hate, or perhaps
something completely other? I have never met a realized person to
that degree to answer."


In Tripura Rahasya, Parasurama commented about Sage Samvarta.
"I have noticed that Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being
completely free from any sense of obligation to act and its
disastrous results. He seems to laugh at the ways of the world, to
stride unconcerned up the road of fearlessness, like a majestic
elephant refreshing itself in a lake of melted snow when the
surrounding forest is on fire. I found him absolutely free from any
sense of obligation and at the same time perfectly happy in his
realization of Eternal Being."

NMadasamy wrote:

"I have noticed that Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being
completely free from any sense of obligation to act and its
disastrous results. He seems to laugh at the ways of the world, to
stride unconcerned up the road of fearlessness, like a majestic
elephant refreshing itself in a lake of melted snow when the
surrounding forest is on fire. I found him absolutely free from any
sense of obligation and at the same time perfectly happy in his
realization of Eternal Being."


Personally I wouldn't want to be free from my obligations to the world, the
life, to all living beings.

Regards

Lars




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

NMadasamy wrote and excerpt from the TR "I have noticed that
Samvarta, the Lord, is quite happy being completely free from any
sense of obligation to act and its disastrous results. He seems to
laugh at the ways of the world, to stride unconcerned up the road of
fearlessness, like a majestic elephant refreshing itself in a lake
of melted snow when the surrounding forest is on fire. I found him
absolutely free from any sense of obligation and at the same time
perfectly happy in his realization of Eternal Being."

Lars Hedström wrote: Personally I wouldn't want to be free from my
obligations to the world, the life, to all living beings.

You know what, the more you said you wouldn't want to be be free
from your obligations, the more DEVI will make you. If its your
destiny, can you prevent it. YOu can say : I am in control of my
action, but the reality is that destiny will decides it. How often
have I seen. I remember once a man told me" no! no! my son will not
marry no other but indian girl" but eventually his son did marry a
nonindian. Somebody said once to me : nope! I will never do such a
thing, but atlas! he actually did it. When I asked him : how come, I
thought you said, you will not do it. His response is : what to do,
MA wants me to. Haaaaa

That is why Lalitha is called the Playful one. She likes to play
with you. You are in a shakti group, and you just said it. We shall
see what she is capable of doing.

Dear Lili:

Can you direct me to a source material that discusses Amma's time
spent on a beach motionless/speechless? I read about it online, but
haven't found any further details, like how long she spent in that
state, what she had to say about it later, etc.

Gee, someone complained about being spat on and having excrement
thrown at them? People these days just want to be spoonfed spiritual
pablum! :-P The avadhoot you mention sounds like an upset child, and
you are right, it is important to be able to realize such things in
others and self to keep perspective.

I read that Jesus cursed a fig tree, causing it to die because it
bore no fruit when he was hungry, though it was not the time of year
for figs to be produced. That tree was withered by the Master just
for being there in its natural state. Reminds me of Donald Trump
saying he nearly fired a great employee for asking him for a raise
when The Donald was having a bad day. He mentioned that it is wise
for people to recognize what is going on around them and with others
before stepping into the fray. That advice is sage, and I have heard
it from Amma, as well. Even so, I saw Trump as a big baby who likes
to make others wrong instead of recognizing when he himself needs to
get some perspective.

Mary Ann


--- In Shakti_Sadhana (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, Lili Masamura
<sephirah5@y...> wrote:
>
> "One of the signs of God-realization is joy."
>
> All this is true, of course. But the essential personality remains
as well. Realized people, despite being filled with joy, do not
necessarily behave towards others in a "saintly" fashion. The great
Ma Tara devotee and saint Bamakhepa ("Crazy saint") would behave in
antisocial ways, throwing shit at people, insulting and verbally
abusing them, never wore clothes, and smoked his chillum (hashish
pipe) incessantly, while wandering around in the cremation ground
where he lived all his life. One of Ammaji's devotees, in "Women
Saints of India" describes encountering an avadhuta who merely sat
in a corner, and would spit on and insult people who came for his
darshan. Ammaji would sit there with him while he would spit on her,
and then remark after they left, "He's really in the Supreme
state!", and the devotees would all chorus, "Oh! If that's
the "supreme state" I don't want anything to do with it!", and
Mother would respond, "You cannot understand until you yourself have
realized, why he is like that!"
>
> Ammaji herself went through the avadhut state, wandering alone
around in the jungle, eating any old thing she was given or able to
find, and sitting motionless or dancing in the torrential monsoon
rains for hours. Ramakrishna would wander about naked, oblivious to
his condition, or indeed, to anything else, when he was going
through the early part of his samadhi. So, hanging on to the
illusion that "realization" always transforms one into a physical
embodiment of "sweetness and light towards all" according to popular
definition will seriously hamper one in the recognition of
the "realization" of
> one's own self, or of others!
>
> Lilith M.
>
> --- Max Dashu <maxdashu@l...> wrote:
>
> > One of the signs of God-realization is joy.