Food For Life or Food For Death?

Jahnava Nitai Das · 05-09-2005, 02:47 PM

Please see the following link for an article on this latest argument in ISKCON:

http://www.foodrelief.org/news/pages/Food-For-Death

Several ISKCON leaders are campaigning to stop distribution of prasadam to poor people on the grounds that it is a mundane welfare activity, not a spiritual activity. The above link is a refutation of their claims.

theist · 05-09-2005, 03:27 PM

prasadam is soul food for the poor as well as the rich. No mundane distinctions apply.

Now they want to leave out the poor???? I guess the poor can't give big donations. Such people are considered leaders in iskcon? What a joke but what's new. What do they propose having people prove their income status. Too poor so no plate.

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 03:59 PM

there has been a LOT of discussion of this from email, so i'm sifting through to see what to post.

first off, let me say that i laud jndas Prabhu's efforts to distribute prasada. he is actually doing something, whereas i am not. but there is a tendency for it to get sort of karma-kanda-ish when devotional quality control is lost. a pertinent of example of this is is the akshaya-patra scheme in Bangalore, which we all know is not the sweetest most devotional temple in the world:

> Dear Maharajas, Prabhujis and Matajis
> PAMHO
> AGTSP
>
> I have the greatest respect for any program that distributes prasadam and gives the mercy of the Holy Name to the hungry and thirsty masses.
All> glories to all those prasadam distribution efforts which make new devotees. Phalena pariciyate. Since FFL was setup for this noble objective I offer my humble obeisances to all those who are striving to make new devotees through a combined program of kirtan, prasadam distribution and sankirtan.
>
> In Bangalore, India there is another program which appears like FFL.
>
> I have some comments regarding this popular Akshaya Patra program of ISKCON Bangalore, now expanding into other places at a rapid pace. I am raising some points for discussion based on my limited experience and observation of their operation. Kindly correct me wherever I am wrong.
>
> 1. Most people involved are paid employees.
> 2. Cooking is nearly fully mechanised, simple food, seems quite inexpensive. It appears like collections are more than expenses, hence providing room for expansion. Also perceived price of a plate of "Mid-day meal" is much more than the actual cost.
> 3. The process of delivery is slick and professional. Rarely do devotees accompany the prasadam.
> 4. I haven't noticed any process of kirtan before, during or after meals in the schools where they deliver.
> 5. No "Mahaprasade Govinde" also as far as I know.
> 6. It seems to be very popular with the political bigwigs and getting big favors seems easy.
> 7. The Mid-day Meal draws many students to the school to receive modern education. The great theories of Darwin, Big Bang etc are taught by poorly paid teachers who harbor hopes of material opulence.
> 8. I am unaware of any regular program wherein devotees are involved in going to the schools wherein they give KC classes on a regular basis.
> 9. Also I am unaware of the existence of a program by which parents of children are visited and preached to on the importance of devotional life.
> 10. I am unaware of the existence of a system controlled by the Akshay Patra organisers wherein they can separate the deserving kids from the undeserving ones.In some schools the children usually gather at the time of meals and spend the rest of the time playing cricket, gambling etc. Mid day meal can at times turn into free food for lazy kids who want to
enjoy life. Also I was wondering if there are any statistics of how many children are chanting japa, how many rounds etc and how many have joined the movement or are serving in some way due to this program.
>
> 11. The government is apparently happy to support the mid-day meal for a few reasons. Prominent ones are
> a)Government spending for this activity reduces so there is more money to go into corrupt pockets.
> b)Children have fallen sick in the past from poor quality food hence embarassing the government. Private participation mitigates this risk.
> c)Huge scams related to the mid-day meal also embarassed the government.
>
>
> I was wondering what the objective of Akshay Patra was
>
> 1. Is it collect money for other activities using this front?
> 2. Is it get political favors?
> 3. Is it to encourage children to go to school and get a
materialistic education? As far as I know so many children go to school abandoning farm work and other work/vocations just for the meal since they are impoverished.
>
> Given the money spent is it not easier to have our own schools or schools managed or controlled by devotees where we can influence curriculum and attitude of children rather than fuel an education system which SP decried repeatedly?
>
> Further wouldnt it be better to create model schools on the varnashram basis as per SP's desires where children can engage in vocational training and hence earn a living in the future? The number of so called educated unemployed in exploding the world over. These educated kids are a frustrated lot involved in all kinds of anti-social behavior. They usually resent a society that taught them things which serve no practical purpose in most cases.
>
> Isn't it better for Akshay Patra program to take a leadership role rather than a follower role? Can't we be change leaders in society who display the courage to stand up for the right thing and show society how to do things rather than do things which society likes but is not endorsed by SP or sastra?
>
> Aren't feeding kids and encouraging them to receive a materialistic education devoid of KC and distributing condoms to prevent AIDS similar in hypocrisy to our core values?
>
> One last doubt: An Uttama Adhikari would obviously see all activities as bhakti but shouldn't we run our programs from a more Madhyama Adhikari platform? Isn't it better to err on the more conservative side?
>
> Please forgive any offenses made and correct me where I am wrong.
>
> We are hoping to start a humble prasadam and water seva at our book stall near Manasi Ganga in Govardhan. Please bless us that this modest attempt will succeed and help make new devotees and further our preaching attempts. Please bless me so that I may get Krishna prema.
>
> your servant
> Mahaprabhu Caitanya das

Pankaja_Dasa · 05-09-2005, 04:03 PM

Swami J. and Swami B.

Anyway I am reading looks very interesting, sounds like an ism in the making!

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 04:14 PM

so the people who are so-called 'against prasad' do have legitimate concerns. i don't like to see either side vilified in the debate. mostly what i have seen so far is that devotees who try to present the Prabhupada statements below are vilified, before even being asked what their reasoning is.

so here are two quotes from different sides of the argument.

So far the Fiji [ISKCON] constitution is concerned, where it says: "supplying needs to the sick, poor, and orphans, etc." That is not our program. We distribute prasadam to everyone, not particularly to the needy. We make no discrimination, rich or poor. --Letter to Upendra dasa : 76-06-30

Regarding food distribution, they may come to take at our Temple. With travelling sankirtana we can distribute wherever we go, but not to the emergency spot, like that.
> > --letter to Jayapataka Swami, 09/28/76

and then of course this and many others, which prove to us that jndas Prabhu's service is indeed laudable:

"Somehow or other, everyone can manage to perform such a yajna and distribute prasada to the people in general. That is quite sufficient for this age of Kali. The Krsna consciousness movement is based on this principle: chant the Hare Krsna mantra at every moment, as much as possible, both inside and outside of the temples, and, as far as possible, distribute prasada. ***This process can be accelerated with the cooperation of state administrators and those who are producing the country's wealth.*** Simply by liberal distribution of prasada and sankirtana, the whole world can become peaceful and prosperous".

Kulapavana · 05-09-2005, 04:26 PM

it IS simple. but some people (with nothing better to do?) MAKE IT complicated. nobody is saying we should ONLY do prasadam distribution. but to flat out call ANY prasadam distribution project "food for death" is insane.

it's a friggin outrage, that senior devotees have displayed so little common sense, let alone devotional maturity... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Kulapavana · 05-09-2005, 04:54 PM

regarding the letter of Mahaprabhu Caitanya das.

we can theorize all we want, what programs would be best or better, but there is NO NEED to knock down existing programs, popular with both general devotees and general public. that is very discouraging. instead of criticizing such existing programs:

START YOUR OWN IDEAL PROGRAM

and SHOW us, how it is done. critics are dime a dozen.

krsna · 05-09-2005, 05:50 PM

...these ISKCON leaders have been using deception to mislead the public on this subject???

Please respond.

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 06:01 PM

Post deleted by jagatpurush

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 06:03 PM

'Food for Death' is an unfortunate title. i don't have to explain everything Jayadvaita Swami does. only he does.

however, it is a fact that the FFL program was not started by Srila Prabhupada. has anyone asked why? all i see is vilification, no dispassionate analysis.

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 06:12 PM

>but some people (with nothing better to do?) MAKE IT complicated.

the insinuation that people whose points you don't like have nothing better to do than talk on the internet is the oldest trick in the internet book, and essentially means nothing. if it is important enough to be a topic, it is important enough to be discussed thoroughly.

if you have enough time to make this lame insinuation that i have 'nothing better to do' than try to understand PRabhupada's intentions for ISKCON--then you have enough time to try to understand the intricacies of this subject.

jagatpurush · 05-09-2005, 06:35 PM

if i have one point to make in this whole discussion, it is only that we should not assume that devotees like Bhakti Vikasa Maharaja, Jayadvaita Maharaja, and Mahaprabhu Caitanya Prabhu are armchair philosophers or have 'nothing better to do' than stop people from taking prasada. they are brahmanas; they are supposed to discuss these things. and i'm sure jndasa Prabhu would agree that in general there is not enough thinking among leaders about what Prabhupada really wanted for ISKCON.

Prabhupada said that the first-class man appears to be doing nothing, while actually he is doing a lot. ksatriyas appear to be doing a lot and are doing a lot. whereas confused people seem to be doing a lot, but are actually doing nothing.

i have not read jndas Prabhu's article because knowing him, i'm sure it is all correct. he is, after all, a scholar. i would be a fool to argue with him. i just do not like this condescending attitude (of some--not jndasa Prabhu) towards senior devotees without trying to understand their position first.

Jahnava Nitai Das · 05-10-2005, 12:29 AM

Quote:

however, it is a fact that the FFL program was not started by Srila Prabhupada. has anyone asked why? all i see is vilification, no dispassionate analysis.

I don't want to be too critical, but you have been deceived. Food For Life was started by Srila Prabhupada under the name "ISKCON FOOD RELIEF", and Prabhupada personally sent money specified for "poor feeding".* The fact that the name was changed in 1981 from ISKCON Food Relief to Food For Life is irrelevant. But these particular ISKCON leaders are using this deception to convince people like you that it wasn't started by Prabhupada. Just another form of cheating. Here is the particular excerpt from the article on this exact point:

In his seminar on "Food For Death" he uses another cheating technique by suggesting Food For Life is bogus because the phrase was coined in 1981 after Srila Prabhupada's departure. He suggests that distributing prasadam to the poor was a later day addition to ISKCON not approved by Srila Prabhupada. But the fact is Food For Life was founded by Prabhupada under the name ISKCON Food Relief, and ran under that name for many years. In 1981 the name was changed from ISKCON Food Relief to Food For Life. Now let us ask ourselves what do the words "Food Relief" mean? It is obvious to any honest person that you are targeting the needs of the poor. Food Relief means you are providing food to those who lack it; thus you are giving them relief from their hunger through food. As Prabhupada taught, everything can be used in the service of Krishna. Thus he found an innovative way to spread Krishna consciousness through food. And for the poorer class of men, ISKCON Food Relief was the perfect vehicle to deliver Krishna to them. Already prasadam distribution was going on in ISKCON temples, in ISKCON restaurants, on college campuses, etc. But ISKCON Food Relief targeted a new audience to deliver Krishna to, namely the poorer class of men. Prabhupada utilized in Krishna's service people's inherent desire to give charity and help the needy. Prabhupada teaches everything, even missiles, can be used in Krishna's service: "Whatever is there, whatever we have, should be used for Krishna. We can use everything: typewriters, automobiles, airplanes, missiles--anything." So why can't people's good nature, philanthropy, kindness, etc. be likewise utilized in Krishna's service?

---

* "Please accept my blessings. In Bombay I have paid in advance Rs. 25,000/- to Bhavananda Maharaja for Food Relief poor feeding; so whatever you have collected for poor feeding may be sent to Bombay Bank of America." - Srila Prabhupada

Jahnava Nitai Das · 05-10-2005, 12:37 AM

A few quick quotes to show Prabhupada's real view on this topic:

"Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated June 25, 1975 and have noted the contents. The Gurukula and poor feeding programs should be developed and it will make us very popular." - Srila Prabhupada

"The rich man should distribute prasadam through Krishna consciousness to the poor man, and the poor man should not be envious of the rich man. Then there will be happiness prosperity." - Srila Prabhupada

"It is the duty of a householder to feed first of all the children, the old members of the family, the brahmanas and the invalids. Besides that, an ideal householder is required to call for any unknown hungry man to come and dine before he himself goes to take his meals. He is required to call for such a hungry man thrice on the road. The neglect of this prescribed duty of a householder, especially in the matter of the old men and children, is unpardonable." – Srila Prabhupada

"That prasadam is also Isa [God]. The prasadam accepted by Krishna, offered to Krishna, is also Krishna. So if we give prasadam, then he is getting the opportunity of associating with Krishna. This is our idea. But people very much appreciate poor-feeding. So that, you can take it." - Srila Prabhupada

"Just like poor-feeding. This program we also follow. In our temple, especially in India, any man can come and take his food. Yes. We have got arrangement." - Srila Prabhupada

"Generally people make a plea that why are there so many hungry and naked. So we invite all hungry and naked people to come to us and we will give them food and clothing and Krishna consciousness as well. This will attract the general public and there will never be any shortage of food-stuffs, so continue regularly. In Bombay there are many generous persons who like food distribution programs, and actually, our temple should be the via media for feeding the poor with food and spiritual knowledge." - Srila Prabhupada

"Just like feeding the poor. It is also yajna. But the same thing, if it is dovetailed in consciousness, that becomes perfect. People are very much inclined to feed the poor with sumptuous food, but it can be done in a little different way, that the foodstuff offered to Vishnu, prasada, that distribution foodstuff is better than ordinary distribution of foodstuff. Ordinarily, that is punya, pious activities, but when it is connection with Krishna, this is called yajna." - Srila Prabhupada

"Everywhere. In the hospitals, charitable societies, Industrial places, everywhere - distribute this prasada and chant this Hare Krishna. Just see what is the result. You want peace? These are the processes of peace." - Srila Prabhupada

"Those who think that devotion to God and kindness to the jivas are mutually different from each other, and perform accordingly in their life, such persons will not be able to follow the devotional culture. Their performance is only a semblance of devotion. Therefore, all the types of beneficence to others, like kindness, friendliness, forgiveness, charity, respect, etc. are included in Bhakti. Charity of medicines, clothes, food, water, etc. shelter during adversities, teaching of academic and spiritual education, etc. are the activities included in the devotional culture" - Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Jahnava Nitai Das · 05-10-2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

so here are two quotes from different sides of the argument.

So far the Fiji [ISKCON] constitution is concerned, where it says: "supplying needs to the sick, poor, and orphans, etc." That is not our program. We distribute prasadam to everyone, not particularly to the needy. We make no discrimination, rich or poor. --Letter to Upendra dasa : 76-06-30

Regarding food distribution, they may come to take at our Temple. With travelling sankirtana we can distribute wherever we go, but not to the emergency spot, like that.
> > --letter to Jayapataka Swami, 09/28/76

The Swami who conducts the "Food for Death" seminar (yes, he seriously conducts a five day seminar by this name) uses only three quotes to try to establish his view that serving prasadam to the poor is offensive to Prabhupada (his exact words). The above two quotes are his main evidence, along with one other quote. All three have been taken out of their specific time/place context and misused to try to make a universal rule for eternity.

To see the actual context of these quotes I would recommend one to read the article I wrote. But since it is 35 pages and most people would prefer to accept the above sound-byte quotes rather than read 35 pages of writings I will post a small excerpt dealing with one of the quotes above:

----

Let us address some of the main quotations offered by Swami J. and others to support their claim that feeding prasadam to poor people is offensive to Prabhupada.

1) First Quote

"Regarding food distribution, they may come to take at our Temple. With travelling sankirtana we can distribute wherever we go, but not to the emergency spot, like that." --letter to Jayapataka Swami, 09/28/76

This is the quote offered most commonly by Swami J. as a universal blanket statement against distributing prasadam in emergency areas for all time to come, in all areas of the world, and in all circumstances. This also happens to be the "evidence" he offers against distributing prasadam outside of ISKCON temple compounds. Prabhupada said "regarding food distribution, they may come to take at our Temple," thus according to Swami J. there is really nothing more to be said about it. Anyone who distributes prasadam outside of an ISKCON temple is disobeying Srila Prabhupada and committing offenses against him.

But what of all the times Srila Prabhupada says we should distribute prasadam in the hospitals, factories, schools, charitable societies, etc.? Those are certainly outside ISKCON temple compounds? Or what of this letter, where Srila Prabhupada says it is fine to distribute prasadam at the businessmen's club:

"I very much liked the report of prasadam distribution at the club for the businessmen." - Letter to Amogha dasa, 5th August, 1974

What Swami J. is suggesting is that it is fine to go to the rich man’s club and distribute prasadam to them, but it is offensive to go to the poor areas or to the emergency sites and distribute prasadam - all because one sentence in a letter written to a particular person in a particular situation.

Let's look at the quote again:

"Regarding food distribution, they may come to take at our Temple. With travelling sankirtana we can distribute wherever we go, but not to the emergency spot, like that."

This is an instruction to a temple president taking into account the temple resources, available devotees, and other circumstances. Under those precise circumstances, Prabhupada advised them that the temple should distribute prasadam within the temple compound. Remember Prabhupada's explanation: "Separate attempt will require separate energy diverted from the temple management. Therefore if you do at all start Prasadam distribution, try to do it in the temple itself." This is not a universal rule for all times and places to be followed regardless of circumstances. This is a management decision Prabhupada gave taking into consideration the situation at the time. In that particular situation, when there were few devotees in Mayapur, and not so many resources, Prabhupada advised them to distribute prasadam in the temple. Yet still he gave an exception:

"With travelling sankirtana we can distribute wherever we go, but not to the emergency spot, like that."

Since the traveling sankirtan party will anyway be traveling to different villages, they could distribute in those places as well. This would not require any additional stra