Sri Krsna: 'when God himself falls in love' [From Sanga]

Jahnava Nitai Das · 05-19-2001, 09:24 PM

S a n g a

Tuesday, April 17, Disappearance of Srila Vrindavan das Thakur

"Krsna lila is human-like and human society best facilitates this
human-like lila of God. We are taught to love Krsna but Krsna is God when
God himself falls in love."

Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari.

Q. While chanting I began to feel my body vibrate, and fall forward
uncontrollably. It was kind of frightening. What do you think happened?

A. Spiritual bliss is not frightening. It is prefaced by sattva guna and
the comforting sense of unity with all things. In its budding stage it
brings cold, joyful tears to the eyes and a sense of detachment. I am not
sure what happened to you. I suggest you pay closer attention to your
chanting.

Q. I have read where certain saints in India have had a divine vision
(darshan) of Sri Krsna yet they did not appear to become Vaisnavas, and
even more, each saint is saying different things about the real position of
Krsna. How is this?

A. Krsna is like a valuable jewel. If you look at a beautiful jewel from
different angles you will see its different facets. Similarly, Krsna has
many aspects. As persons surrender to him, he reveals himself accordingly.
He may even give darshan to a nondevotee for reasons of his own. In Kamsa's
wrestling arena he was seen by different persons
in different ways. For example, yogis saw him as a manifestation of
Paramatma.

Q. What is the main cause of violence and aggression?

A. The cause is lust, unsatisfied desire. Krsna says, 'kama esa krodha
esa, rajo-guna-samudbhavah' (Bg. 3.37). The dissatisfaction derived from
the pursuit of material desire transforms into anger. Passion transforms
into ignorance, lust into anger.

Q. In a recent Sanga you said that the residents of the spiritual world
are anxious to join Krsna's nara-lila because it is like a movie 'shot on
location.' Why would the Lord's lila in the material world have this
special quality?

A. Because Krsna lila is human-like. Krsna is God, whom we are taught to
love. But Krsna is God when God himself falls in love. Human society best
facilitates this human-like lila of God. In the prakata lila here on Earth,
Krsna can actually kill demons in youthful sport, whereas in the aprakata
lila there are no demons present. Here he can perform the lila of taking
birth, growing to boyhood and adolescence. All of this makes the prakata
lila sweeter and more charming. It is called nara-lila as opposed to
Krsna's deva-lila in his aprakata pastimes of Goloka.

Q. I found this verse in Sri Caitanya Caritamrita by Kavi Karnapura. It
does not appear to agree with your contention that only the jiva is saguna
Brahman. "In this way, that one eternal atman will remain as shesha (this
one eternal atman will exist after the dissolution of the worlds), it is
the Brahman with upadhi (guna) that emerges out of upadhi, otherwise that
Brahman with upadhi is also called jiva." (6.67) [Excerpted from an ongoing
discussion thread.]

A. Yes, in this verse the jiva is being identified as saguna Brahman. But
how you can use this to form a conclusion about Mahaprabhu's entire
philosophy is beyond me. In this verse, the word guna has various meanings.
Vaisnavas don't usually call Krsna 'saguna brahma.' But when they do, they
don't mean that God has material qualities, but rather spiritual qualities.
This verse uses neither the word guna or brahma, but upadhi and atma,
which, though parallel concepts, are not necessarily identical. The verse
must be interpreted in light of the entire siddhanta of Mahaprabhu.

Over and over again it is stressed throughout all of the biographies of
Mahaprabhu and in all of the books of his followers and their commentaries
that the jiva is an eternal unit of consciousness and the plurality of
souls in this world is not merely a result of Brahman being influenced by
material nature. According to Gaudiya Vedanta, the world is a
transformation of the sakti (maya sakti) of Brahman interacting with
another of Brahman's saktis (jiva sakti).

Previously I cited evidence from Padma Purana regarding the saktis of God
in relation to the Gaudiya understanding of the Gita (jiva bhuta maha baho
yayedam dharyate jagat). In spite of this and the thousands of statements
regarding the nature of the jiva in Gaudiya literature, its Vedantic basis
of sakti parinam vada, as opposed to Sankara's vivartavada, etc. you want
to think that Mahaprabhu's teaching supports the idea that the jiva is
actually Brahman in every respect, Brahman that is under the influence of
material nature thus appearing as many souls. Mahaprabhu taught that the
jiva and material nature are Brahman in the sense that they are saktis of
Brahman and thus one with Brahman and different from Brahman simultaneously
(acintya bhedabheda).

You seem to be following the conclusions of Aurobindo, which is fine. But
his conclusions are not the same as those of Mahaprabhu's followers. I
suggested that you read read Tattva-sandarbha if you are truly interested
in understanding the Vedanta of the followers of Mahaprabhu. Have you done
that? Read his followers' commentaries on the Gita as well. According to
Vaisnava commentaries, the Gita speaks of a plurality of eternal souls
beginning with verse 2.12. According to the Vaisnava commentaries, the Gita
verses that seem to speak of singularity are actually speaking of a
singular class of souls.

Not only the Gaudiyas, but all Vaisnavas sects understand the scripture to
be speaking of an eternal plurality of souls whose individuality is not
merely a product of association with material nature. Read the Gita
commentaries of Madhva, Ramanuja and others. Your conclusions drawn from
the Gita are different from those of the followers of Mahaprabhu and all
other Vaisnava sects. Surely you don't think that yours is the only correct
understanding?