The Intelligent Designer

Gee...anyone scared?

http://us.cnn.com/2005/US/11/10/reli...eut/index.html

Here is a dude venting his frustration by cursing the evolution supporters of what he calls 'God's wrath'. We may as well go back to caveman times to eat raw meat and wear bones as beads around the neck.

How can people be so blind to to lose sight of reality? Religion and science do not mix. Their basic premises are completely different.

Cheers

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Religion and science do not mix. Their basic premises are completely different.

Wrong. Every part of creation somehow points to God's presence. To me the Lord's secrets are codified in nature. Science may point some of these out and when they do I accept it as another form of scripture.

I can't state how opposite my views are from yours. But to each his own.

Wrong. Every part of creation somehow points to God's presence

Wrong :-)

Nature is eternal (not created) and self-sustaining. By virtue of it's own properties, it transforms itself to change dynamically with time. No external entity needs to be "created" by man to explain this.

If you are unwilling to accept that nature is eternal and capable of transformation, then the same logic applies to the alleged creator. Who created the creator? Any answer you provide to this question will automatically fault your own position.

There is also the matter of experience. There is not a single shred of evidence of a hidden creator other than what we make up for ourselves or pick up from books written by people who made up these evidences for themselves. In short, due to absence of evidence, science categorically rejects the ID fantasy and rightfully so.

Perhaps if Narada can drop in for a few minutes into the whitehouse to address a press conference and clarify, things may change. But until then...

Cheers

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Can you prove nature is eternal - what is the real meaning of anything eternal as understood by those who are so temporary?

To see is to believe or to believe is to see?

No evidence of a creator? Whatever evidence really is?!

Where are your intermediary forms in the fossil record - there is no evidence for your evolution - the real evidence shows sudden appearance/disappearance of species.

You say that there is no evidence for God - but then in the same token you feign evidence to support your theory of materialistic evolution?

I know you will have some nice dry answer to rebutt this with but that doesn't change the fact that you will find out one day that there is a Supreme Being.

'Cheers'

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Same old worn out arguments by atheists. For those with enogh intelligence it is easy to understand that matter on it's own is inert and only becomes animate when in contact with the living force.

You won't understand this but...oh well.

guest you wrote:

Nature is eternal (not created) and self-sustaining. By virtue of it's own properties, it transforms itself to change dynamically with time. No external entity needs to be "created" by man to explain this.

If nature was nothing but chaos then that line of reasoning could be supported. But since nature is comprised of a very large amount of complex designs then to state that nature is not created is suspect. If there are created things in nature then that means that aspects of nature are created, why then should "nature" itself be accepted as uncreated?

What is nature? What you can see and nothing else? Science has a history of discovering things never before seen i.e radio waves, ultra violet light, etc. So just because "nature" appears to someone to be limited to certain phenomena and attributes that doesn't negate the possbibility that there is much more to nature then what you see.

To say that nature is not created is a vacuous statement unless you can give a succinct description of what you mean by nature and created. If by nature you mean all empirically verfiable phenomena then it is a fallacy to state uncategorically that nature is uncreated. It is accepted knowledge in scientific fields today that matter exists in 4 different states. From subtle to gross they are 1) plasma 2)gas 3)liquid 4)solid.

It is accepted by physicists that stars create various elements from nuclear fusion. Also recently it has been discovered that some plants create elements from cold nuclear fusion. It was discovered that elements not present in the soil and water nor the seed of a plant where found to exist after the plant grew. Also living creatures create offspring, fruit, flowers, leaves etc. Creation of various things is the norm on earth.

So we see that in fact some aspects of nature are being created all of the time. The argument can be made that nature may create things all of the time but that all that is really going on is transformation of an already existing eternal non created substance into a variety of things.

And that is exactly what the Vedic philosophy teaches. God is uncreated and God is the substratum or ground of being of all manifest phenomena. Matter in it's 4 states and possibly more unknown states are taught as being trasformations of God's uncreated nature or being. This is a philosophy known as panentheism (not pantheism). Panentheism teaches that nature is comprised of God, that all material phenomena is a transformation of God's inherent nature. God is the uncreated eternally unchanged "nature" you speak of. Panentheism also teaches that the universe we see is only the tip of the iceberg. God comprises the universe and God also exists in dimensions beyond what what we can see of the universe.

So the Vedic conclusions teach a type of panentheism. We teach that a unified field of sub quantum energy is the ground of being or substratum of the visible universe. All matter is a transformation of that energy. All material objects are created by and designed by that energy. We teach that that energy is a single conscious entity and that it has immense and wondrous talents. The energy is energetic and conscious and vastly intelligent and extremely ancient. It is eternal. All transformations of that energy are created and destroyed by that energy according to it's sweet will.

We call him Krishna. His spoke the Bhagavad Gita.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

We call him Krishna. His spoke the Bhagavad Gita.

Here we see where science meets philosophy and where they both meet religion.

[krsna]

BY: SUN STAFF





Nov 12, USA (SUN) — In Dover, Pennsylvania, a local school board who voted to teach both evolution and competing theories were ousted from their positions on the board this week, being defeated in a local election. Meanwhile, the lawsuit they supported has reached the end of trial in Federal court, and a decision is expected early in January.


In Kansas, the conservative majority on the state board of education has pressed their support for teaching intelligent design along with evolution. They just voted to revise and rewrite the state's science standards to permit ideas other than evolution to be presented, including intelligent design. While the curriculum will not point to a specific "designer" or creator, critics charge that intelligent design is simply disguised creationism, a view being advanced by fundamentalist religion.


Kansas is now embroiled in a debate with the National Academy of Sciences, who have revoked their permission for Kansas to use the NAS's national science guidelines. NAS charges that the Kansas board has changed the definition of science by omitting a key sentence which says that science can only rely on natural explanations - not the supernatural.


Some Kansas residents are concerned that the state will become a laughingstock, while others see the intelligent design debate from a much broader view. Followers of Vedic philosophy, for example, recognize that intelligent design and fundamentalist western religion are not one and the same, by any means. For us, intelligent design is a matter of philosophy, not religion. Where eastern philosophy and western science will meet head to head in this debate remains to be seen.


Drutakarma dasa (Michael Cremo) is perhaps the only devotee currently active worldwide in advancing the Vedic position in this matter. All devotees are encouraged to become well educated on this subject, so they can assert the Krsna Conscious understanding of intelligent design at the local level. The window of opportunity for this critically important preaching work is open now.


Elsewhere in the media this week, NPR's "All Things Considered" reported on a battle that has long been brewing at the Smithsonian Institute, a bastion of all things scientific. Scientists associated with this venerable institution were furious over publication of a pro-Intelligent Design article published in an associated journal.


"Intelligent design -- the idea that life is too complex to have evolved through Darwinian evolution -- is stirring up controversy not only in high school classrooms but also at universities and scientific research centers.


Richard Sternberg, a staff scientist at the National Institutes of Health, is puzzled to find himself in the middle of a broader clash between religion and science -- in popular culture, academia and politics.


Sternberg was the editor of an obscure scientific journal loosely affiliated with the Smithsonian Institution, where he is also a research associate. Last year, he published in the journal a peer-reviewed article by Stephen Meyer, a proponent of intelligent design, an idea which Sternberg himself believes is fatally flawed.


"Why publish it?" Sternberg says. "Because evolutionary biologists are thinking about this. So I thought that by putting this on the table, there could be some reasoned discourse. That's what I thought, and I was dead wrong.""


According to Sternberg, the science community banded together in an attempt to ruin his reputation by accusing him of fraud, a charge related to his supposedly calling an article "peer reviewed" when it was not. In fact, Sternberg proved himself right, although the system he appealed to for professional protection did little to help him.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

[quote]
Kansas is now embroiled in a debate with the National Academy of Sciences, who have revoked their permission for Kansas to use the NAS's national science guidelines. NAS charges that the Kansas board has changed the definition of science by omitting a key sentence which says that science can only rely on natural explanations - not the supernatural.

So where is the science that causes them to make such a statement as this? They have none, just a prejudice against God. They are demons under the employment of Hiranyakasipu.

Supernatural- beyond ordinary sense perception
Natural - within ordinary sense perception
Unnatural - motivated by the dark desire to eliminate God from the equation.

These atheists are unnatural "scientists".

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Some Kansas residents are concerned that the state will become a laughingstock, while others see the intelligent design debate from a much broader view. Followers of Vedic philosophy, for example, recognize that intelligent design and fundamentalist western religion are not one and the same, by any means. For us, intelligent design is a matter of philosophy, not religion. Where eastern philosophy and western science will meet head to head in this debate remains to be seen. Drutakarma dasa (Michael Cremo) is perhaps the only devotee currently active worldwide in advancing the Vedic position in this matter. All devotees are encouraged to become well educated on this subject, so they can assert the Krsna Conscious understanding of intelligent design at the local level. The window of opportunity for this critically important preaching work is open now.

This means learning to put the same truth in more recognizable english. Just repeating the breathing of Maha-vishnu and Brahma on the Lotus flower won't convince anyone. It will strengthen the preconception that religious people and their old myths are stuck in a primitive mind frame with their "god".

We were talking about this just recently. So many younger devotees have modern scientific understanding as well that I wouldn't think this would be hard for them.

This world is created by Maya, the illusory potency of the Lord. The Lord has NO DIRECT ACTIVITY HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION. All the activities of creation are carried out by the energies of the Lord but the Lord Himself remains aloof.

Brahma-Samhita, TEXT 1

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah
anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

PURPORT (Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami)

Krsna is the exalted Supreme entity having His eternal name, eternal form, eternal attribution and eternal pastimes...

The glance of His projected fractional portion in the sacred originating water viz., the personal oversoul or Paramatma, gives rise to a secondary potency--nature who creates this mundane universe. This oversoul's intermediate energy (tatastha) brings forth the individual souls analogously to the emanated rays of the sun.

That's right:
nature ... creates this mundane universe

Paramatma (Vishnu) watches the activities of the souls in illusion, but He does not interfere with the actions/reactions they experience in the world of Maya. He appears in this world as Avatara and takes the fortunate souls who become devotees out of this material world, but he does not interfere with the events happening in within the wheel of time (kala-chakra), or the material universe.

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:
In Bhagavad-gita, Chapter Fifteen, verse 15, Krsna says, "I am seated in everyone's heart. By all the Vedas, I am to be known; I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I know Veda as it is." The Supreme Lord, seated in everyone's heart, is described in both the Mundaka and Svetasvatara Upanisads: dva suparna sayuja sakhaya... The Supreme Lord and the individual soul are sitting in the body like two friendly birds in a tree. One bird is eating the fruits of the tree, or reactions of material activities, and the other bird, the Supersoul, is witnessing.

The goal of Vedantic study, therefore, is to know the Supreme Lord, Krsna. This point is stressed in the Bhagavad-gita, Chapter Eight, verse 13, where it is stated that by the mystic yoga process, ultimately vibrating the sacred syllable om, one attains to His supreme spiritual planet. In the Vedanta-sutras, the Fourth Chapter, adhikarana 4, sutra 22, states positively, anavrttih sabdat: "By sound vibration one becomes liberated." By devotional service, by understanding well the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one can go to His abode and never come back again to this material condition. How is it possible? The answer is, simply by chanting His name constantly.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Brahma is the secondary creator. He uses his intelligence to design the material variety and position the jivas in their proper roles within maya.

Krishna says "I am the intelligence of the intelligent."

I accept Krsna therefore as the Intelligent Designer.

Fine, Prabhu,

I urge you to write a letter to the Kansas education board and advise them to modify all schoolbooks for kids in Kansas, adding the following information:

The universe was created by a god with four heads and four arms. This god is only the secondary creator. The intelligent designer created this secondary creator. This four headed god sometimes gets frightened when demons arise out of the foam of the ocean of eternity and when that happens the secondary creator prays to Maya (mother nature) asking her to come out of the ears and eyes of the intelligent designer so the intelligent designer will wake up from his snooze of Yoganidra.

You should also make sure that they get all the facts right when they put this information in the children's school books. Make sure they include a statement that the creator of this universe is not the only creator. There are other creators who have 8, 100 or 1,000 heads and those other creators create other universes which, like this universe, are managed by a god called Indra. This Indra has thousands of eyes all over his body. The eyes used to be another type of bodily organ but they were changed into eyes.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

I will let you gentleman fill in the details. But are you sure those are all the details?

You are both so advanced that apparently you see atheism as being superior to intelligent design. That is very confusing to me. Perhaps you can explain that position more fully.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

It is natural that a philosophical mind wants to know about the origin of the creation. At night he sees the stars in the sky, and he naturally speculates about their inhabitants. Such inquiries are natural for man because man has a developed consciousness which is higher than that of the animals. The author of Srimad-Bhägavatam gives a direct answer to such inquiries. He says that the Lord Sri Krishna is the origin of all creations. He is not only the creator of the universe, but the destroyer as well. The manifested cosmic nature is created at a certain period by the will of the Lord. It is maintained for some time, and then it is annihilated by His will. Therefore, the supreme will is behind all cosmic activities. Of course, there are atheists of various categories who do not believe in a creator, but that is due to a poor fund of knowledge. The modern scientist, for example, has created space satellites, and by some arrangement or other, these satellites are thrown into outer space to fly for some time at the control of the scientist who is far away. Similarly, all the universes with innumerable stars and planets are controlled by the intelligence of the Personality of Godhead.-- SB 1.1.1 pur


Bewildering to hear devotees arguing against ID being taught in schools. Absolutely baffling.