Socialism and Vaishnavism

[kbdas]

er....
in your revolutionary mop-up ops, who will decide who lives and who are the 'demonic powers' that must perish? this is the inevitable result of a crusade.
the problem with political types is they are so certain about what is best for humanity that they don't mind snuffing the dissenters. this has happenned in every revolution.
as for the swp, i don't know about britain but here in the usa they are trotskyites. i know, my aunt and uncle were members and i belonged to the ysa. trotsky was responsible, with his 'anti-god society' for destroying more
religious buildings and murdering more priests and nuns than hitler himself. solzhenitsyn says that in the gulag some folks reckoned "trotsky would have been WORSE than stalin"
oh well, as long as your not a hypocrite and willing to carry out the killings yourself and not make your comrades do it for you!
'by our ideals are we known to others'--srila b.r. sridhar

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by kbdas er.... in your revolutionary mop-up ops, who will decide who lives and who are the 'demonic powers' that must perish? this is the inevitable result of a crusade. the problem with political types is they are so certain about what is best for humanity that they don't mind snuffing the dissenters. this has happenned in every revolution. as for the swp, i don't know about britain but here in the usa they are trotskyites. i know, my aunt and uncle were members and i belonged to the ysa. trotsky was responsible, with his 'anti-god society' for destroying more religious buildings and murdering more priests and nuns than hitler himself. solzhenitsyn says that in the gulag some folks reckoned "trotsky would have been WORSE than stalin" oh well, as long as your not a hypocrite and willing to carry out the killings yourself and not make your comrades do it for you! 'by our ideals are we known to others'--srila b.r. sridhar

Very nice posting! I especially liked the succinct explanation of "trotskyites"...

[Danielle Field]

Kbdas, I do understand your concerns regarding the post revolutionary situation and my response is that revolutions do not require to be bloody. It is capitalism that is bloody laying waste to the human race with little concern for the future of the planet. That may be a hard pill to swallow but it is true. The ruling class is in the minority and the workers are the majority. It is true that the ruling class will lay waste to all who dare to rebel without discrection but that is not to say that the rebels need be so blood thirsty. I know you are going to want to spring up a million and one examples of blood letting for the sake of revolution but I would like to refer you to the experience of revolution in the Paris Commune in the late 1800's and also the current situation in Venezuala.

My concern for the Post revolutionary situation has been expressed previously on this discussion but I will summarise briefly. We currently have a two class situation, bourgois and proletariat. this is not in line with Vedic thoughts on class society, it is an aberration which was brought about by the greed of the bourgeois revolutionaries who sought to rob the power of the corrupt kingly class. My argument is that these theives demons and usurpers are holding the development of the sankirtan movement back. By perverting the direction of society towards the unworthy goals of profit at any cost we are robbing human beings of the opportunity to take advantage of Lord Caitanya's mercy. From what I have learnt of actual Marxism and not the perverted reflection of it that we see through the eyes of bourgeois propagandists, then we will see that there is a way in which we can develop the sankirtan movment as Prabhupada intended and not become apologists for and slaves to the capitalist system.

I understand your concerns about who might be killed after the revolution but I have not met a single socialist who relishes or concerns themselves with such ideas. We are not blood thirsty, we wish to act collectively to stop the activities of the blood thirsty. We wish to stop those who desire money at any cost and are willing to slaughter the innocent to achieve their goals. The reason I am addressing you with these issues is because my experience living in a Hari Krishna temple proved to me that as a movement we are too politically naive to develop the sankirtan movment and have simply become another money making organisation, struggling to survive in a corrupt society.

I really wish I had access to the internet more regularly and then I could get back to you on this. I can see that some reference to Prabhupada's concerns on the matter have been listed and I would like direction to more such references so thanks. What I can tell from the references I've read, however, is that there is not much understanding of Marxism from Prabhupada's disciples at the time and for that reason I suspect Prabhupada has not been correctly informed as to what Marxist ideology is. That answers one of my questions at least and has made me feel more confident that I can maintain full conviction in Prabhupada's vani and not have to neglect the work I am involved in raising consciousness of God in my commrades and associates.

Marxists don't want everybody to be the same and the maxim each according to his need to each according to their ability is perfectly applicable to vaishnava society. As for you BDM, you know there is no love lost between us, so you won't mind if I don't honour your comments with a respons, less to read them as they are usually filthy and contaminating. Although I have little respect for you I can certainly never envisage desiring or justifying yours or anyone else's death for the sake of revolution.

Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field As for you BDM, you know there is no love lost between us, so you won't mind if I don't honour your comments with a respons, less to read them as they are usually filthy and contaminating. Although I have little respect for you I can certainly never envisage desiring or justifying yours or anyone else's death for the sake of revolution.

Well from all the name calling you threw my way in the past - i'm quite sure i see here that your mood is as 'filthy and contaminating' as ever - my last posting on this thread wasn't even posted to you!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field Socialism is a fantastic tool for introducing people to the concept of consciousness expansion and its also a practical means to help people gain a sense of the world in which they live in. I wish I had had an opportunity to present those ideas to Prabhupada to see what he would have thought, but that I cannot do. I am not remotely convinced anyone as yet have convincingly responded to this with Prabhupada's mood and so I guess I'll never know.

Prabupada knew all about socialism and communism you have nothing to teach him on this point - his world was sore impacted by the socialists and communists...

[kbdas]

anyway, the swp is not socialist, it is communist and there is a difference. perhaps it can be explained here?
Srila Prabhupad spoke about his opinion of marxism quite often i believe.

[theist]

Once again Krsna consciousness is purified communism. Krsna is the only owner and controller of everything that be. How crude are the communists who claim the state owns everything within it.

Perfect communism is found right in the first verses of Sri Isopanishad as spiritual or theistic communism.

The atheistic communists only want to place themselves in place of God, therefore they are demons.

Why would any devotee want to promote the atheistic communism of Marx and crew in preference to the perfect communism of Krsna consciousness?

Since socialism is strongly against the caste system and strives to dismantle any hierarchical social strucure, what is the Vaishnava view here on the caste system? Is it hereditary or based ones gunas? Strictly speaking it can't be both since no two brothers are the same, yet have the same parents.

I've spoken to Vasihnavas from different sects about their view on the caste system and some say it is birth based while others say it is gunas and action based.
According to the TV series on Ramayana and Mahabharata caste is determined by action only, but why is there those vasihnavas who ignore this and say it is by birth-family only?

[theist]

Originally Posted by Number 2 Since socialism is strongly against the caste system and strives to dismantle any hierarchical social strucure, what is the Vaishnava view here on the caste system? Is it hereditary or based ones gunas? Strictly speaking it can't be both since no two brothers are the same, yet have the same parents. I've spoken to Vasihnavas from different sects about their view on the caste system and some say it is birth based while others say it is gunas and action based. According to the TV series on Ramayana and Mahabharata caste is determined by action only, but why is there those vasihnavas who ignore this and say it is by birth-family only?

By gunas as I understand it. Like a child born in a the family of a doctors he has an extra advantage of learning the science of medicine and becoming a doctor himself. But until he himself completes medical school and passes all qualifications he cannot practice medicine as a Dr. We see that two brothers born in the family of Dr.s turn out differently. One may complete the process and become a Dr. also while the other may turn out to be a drug dealer.

Birth has it's advantages but gunas rule in the end.

Basically all are born sudras and gro from there. In this kali-yuga that growth is severly stunted. basically 99% remain sudras some with vaisya or ksatriya or even brahmana tendancies but usually the sudra aspect remains fairly dominant.

Best not to bother with the idea of caste as the dominant active gunas become obvious in a person as he lives their life. Other than that is is impossible to tell who is btahmana or sudra,

Another and even better reason to lay caste considerations aside is that suc are based solely on material criteria. Real vision is to see everyone equally as spiritual parts of Krsna and relate to them as such.

This vision not only takes us beyond the caste system but even beyond all other forms of material vision impairments.

Unlike the gross atheist communism of recent experience ,theistic communism based on Krsna consciousness so all species of life are also seen as citizens with rights to life being respected.

This means no animal slaughter is allowed. Trees are respected and deforestation is prohibited. The environment is kept clean because it is a God-given duty for man to be the caretaker of the Earth and all it's inhabitants.

When compared point for point with anything the atheistic communists have to offer Krsna consciousness is far and away the better choice. Even accepting the good and valuable points the atheistic communist may sometimes offer those very points find their perfection only when dovetailed to Krsna concious understanding.

[brajeshwara das]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field I have experienced such a great advancement in my spiritual development in the association of socialists than I ever did in the association of "devotees".

My understanding is that when you are experiencing real advancement you become more humble, tolerant, and respectful, and the last thing I would expect to hear from and advancing devotee is 'I have experienced such great advancement'. Please don't take this statement the wrong way prabhu, I'm just seeing something that may help you to understand what is a devotee and what is real advancement.

Socialism is there to address material issues where people are being exploited, right? Vaisnavism is there to break the desire in us where we want to be the exploiters, and make us see that really we are to be exploited by the Lord. So really we aren't seeking freedom from exploitation, just the opposite. But we don't want to be exploited by false advertising offering us happiness in this material world through the explotation of other jivas, we don't want to be the demons eating the cows. We want sweetness and we want ecstacy; we want eternal, conscious, pure love. We want to take our natural position and serve. If the jivas can truly engage in Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement the natural outcome will be that which you seek. Nothing more is necessary.

If you really want to embrace Vaisnavism, find a Guru you can follow that resonates truth inside your heart and surrender to him. Everything is there in a bonafide Guru, nothing is missing that needs to supplimented with materialistic conceptions of equality or justice. The Lord is boyond that. Reality is beyond our mortal conceptions. Cultivate your faith in the service of the sadhu and you will surely benefit.

Please forgive my offenses, my intentions were to be helpful.

[Danielle Field]

I don't accept such advancement as being the result of my own endeavours. This is the key. I am grateful and respectful to so many people for helping me to understand the world in which I live and the one in which I am beginning to believe it is possible to live. i do not expect others to bow down and worship my greatness. that is not my mood at all. I am not great. I am grateful. This is the difference. When we are grateful for the knowledge we receive we become enthusiastic to pass it on to others. I am not telling you that I am great. I am not. I have troubled myself over simple issues all my life and will continue to do so until I draw my dying breath. I can only hope that I continue to be a grateful recipient of knowledge. I consume knowledge, but knowledge is God. Therefore I consume God. I am aware of this. This is not a pure and respectful mentality. i hope that at some point I will deveop a respectful attitude, then my true love of God will be realised.

This does not detract from the issue that the association of socialists, not all but some, has served to develop my consciousness to the point where I value the importance of the association of humble personalities; personalities who recognise that there are more important goals in life than the satiation of ones own senses.

My concern is how to alleviate myself of the troublesome cycle of samsara. This is not in any way the desire of a true and great devotee. I stubb my toe I feel pain, not to mention the pain of death which would consume me like raging fire and subject me to the indignity of rebirth.

Please do not mistake me for someone who is so foolish as to think that my trials within this world are over. They are not. I am as entangled as the next soul who's fears and desires lie within the taunts of this mystifiying world.

I only speak with a desire to encourage others of a similar faith and level of realisation to look at the world they live in with a greater scrutinity than they may perceive is necessary to follow this path, the path Prabhupada has laid bare before us. I have had the association for 5 years of my life of those who profess to follow Prabhupada, yet these people had nothing of his compassion or knowledge. i have sold Prabhupada's books and have been encouraged to do so as a salesperson, not as an advocate as a better way of life. What I have learnt in the association of socialists is that the key to propogating a better way of life is having the analytical skills to understand how such a life is possible.

May I ask you? Do you understand why we wage wars on the middle east? Why do people living in 1st world countries starve to death? Why women are forced by the powers of economic immiseration to suffer the indignity of prostitution? Why when we are so advanced with techonological prowess do we still strive for the highest profit at the lowest outlay? Why devotees throughout the world are subject to torture, poverty, starvation and ruination?

I suggest to you it is because capitalism as an economic system is totally and utterly opposed to Vaishnavism. It is demonism of the kind that is outlined within the tenth chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. On the other hand socialism, in my experience of socialising with socialists and digesting socialist ideas whilst maintaining a furious commitment to Prabhupada's mission of establishing the cult of Vaishnavism throughout the globe, has brought me to the conclusion that there is no contradiction between Vaishnava culture and the ideals of the socialist movement. If you do not believe that I would suggest it is because you have never had the opportunity as I have been so fortunate to have of associating with socialists. My joy comes from having the opportunity to show to them that God values their commitment to the betterment of human society and in so doing to awaken some of the most compassionate souls alive today of the value of learning to love Krishna.

I am the servant of the servant of the servant. Dasi anu dasi anu dasi. i would not wish it to be any other way. I hope this goes some measure to answering your query. If you still feel that I am proud and desirous to impact upon others the grandiosity of my knowledge let it be known fully that the knowledge I am propogating is not of my own creation. It is a gift that I am obviously incapable of passing on to any kind of meaningful effect. Although it pains my heart that this is so I hope that others will follow who are more effective in their preaching and can inspire you to see that there is value in socialist beliefs.

[brajeshwara das]

One of my very best old-time friends was intricately involved in the SWP leadership, as was his family and I went to plenty of rallies and lectures etc. I know all about it. I had a subscription to The Militant for years. In the end I found them lacking in true understanding of the problem at hand, with no effective way to address it.

The reason for all the suffering in this world is simple: selfish interest and exploitation of others. If everyone were to become devotees, their interest would be Krsna's interest and we would live in peace and prosperity for all. And I'm not talking about shaved heads and doties, but internal devotion within most humans. Really being devotees in their hearts. No more exploitation, just service. But the reality is this material world is the land of exploitation, though you can work to limit it you will not remove exploitation. A lion and a lamb are exploiting, will you convince them? We have to get out of this burning world and take as many with us as we can on our way out. It certainly can improve the material situation as well for people in general if we work to propogate the Sankirtan movement, we should put everything we have towards that goal.

The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord. That is reality. We need to see everyone as spirit souls who are not these bodies. Do Socialists teach or agree with that? I don't think so. They reinforce a false sense of who we are and what our purpose is, and we need to move beyond that. Ask your socialist friends if they can equate themselves as servants. If so, servants to who? Without theistic thought it will go nowhere. I appreciate the core of socialism 'we want to end exploitation' but really our rallying cry is 'we want to serve.' I know you see them as similar and they are addressing the same basic issue in a sense, but their understanding is purely materialistic and so is their solution. It is inadequate. That they hate exploitation is good though, and you should try and teach them how God should play the central role in their struggle against it.

"The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord"
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I would think that since many people would become socialists because they see how the people in general can get exploited by those who have poweer, they may be inclined to fear such tendencies (to exploit those under you) could be in God, and as such might be less inclined to trust and turn to religion (which unfortunately is often not the same as turning to God) but instead trust themselves to try to fix things in the world around them. All to often tho, those who rise to the top in such groups (be it comunism or simple unions) may end up primarily making a better life for themselves and think of those "under" them a distant second.

[brajeshwara das]

Originally Posted by Guest-- "The Socialists see the everyone as workers. That's an improvement from the capitalists' view that all are exploiters, but better to see everyone as a servants of the Lord" ------------------------------ I would think that since many people would become socialists because they see how the people in general can get exploited by those who have poweer, they may be inclined to fear such tendencies (to exploit those under you) could be in God, and as such might be less inclined to trust and turn to religion (which unfortunately is often not the same as turning to God) but instead trust themselves to try to fix things in the world around them. All to often tho, those who rise to the top in such groups (be it comunism or simple unions) may end up primarily making a better life for themselves and think of those "under" them a distant second.

Yes, very good point.

I think the best thing for Vaisnavas is not to compromise our philosophy to make it acceptable to the general public. Work on the packaging of course, make it attractive, but nothing is missing from it that needs to be supplemented with Socialism.

"I think the best thing for Vaisnavas is not to compromise our philosophy to make it acceptable to the general public. Work on the packaging of course, make it attractive, but nothing is missing from it that needs to be supplemented with Socialism."


Why even worry if it packaged in an attractive package ? In my own life I have managed to get several people cracking open books just by being me. The see the once drugged out violent child standing in front of them with a serene smile and they ask.

As to the topic of this thread socialism is just as bad as capatalism or any other system for that matter because instead of looking at the true source of evil it seeks to impose its own rules and laws. I know plenty of evil socialists and good capatalists and visa versa.