Socialism and Vaishnavism

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field I can't do this on the internet and this is just Maya. its not advancing either your position or mine. Your interpretation of my words is coming from an incomplete understanding of my position and a parody of what socialism is and is capable of. I give up. You have won, without convincing me of a single thing. I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice. It would help if you were trying to understand and not to simply undermine my position. I may be wrong, but I'm only going to find that out from someone who is willing to see exactly what I am trying to say. Someone who is willing to follow what logic there is in my argument and not someone who is looking for potholes and where they don't exist, forging them. For all those people who were supportive of my argument and maybe know little of socialism please look into it or at least be willing to understand where socialists are coming from. Take care. Haribol.

When did i say your position had no value? You didn't pick up my point [on Prabhupada's comments to Lord Brockway] and that is that you may have a point in some areas and that your best efforts would be placed in trying to reach socialist leaders [or ones up and coming] with the message that they need - Prabhupada's teachings presented to them in such a manner that they would have the opportunity to become 'educated'.

I do remain quite concerned about your views about revolutions [of any kind] and your seeming acceptance of those 'factions' that are fighting the western 'capitalist' nations - be they terrorists or 'whatever'. I think you might do well to see any revolution less as a solution maker and more of a problem maker - especially in kali yuga times like these.

Do know that i see that you are sincere enough to place the efforts that you do into your postings and discussions with others and - I do respect that.

Hari Bolo!

[Danielle Field]

I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day. No reason to take it out on you. I think I'm going to have to wait until I've got proper access to the internet to get involved in discussing this more deeply though. My economic situation is too precarious to risk getting caught like this. Thanks for your time. I will think about what you've said. Hari bol! (I know thats the solution really)

[theist]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field ...I'm sorry that no one else wanted to really engage with this discussion because I feel it would benefit from a less polarised argument where different strands of the discussion could be addrressed but we're really just not getting beyond misunderstandings and prejudice.

Oh really?

[theist]

If one is interested in understanding communism from the Vaisnava viewpoint they only need to study Vaisnavism to find it. There is no need to waste valuable time learning socialism from atheists. We are not interested in the atheists opinon on how a human life should be lived rather individully or collectively.

A Vaisnava will not take more than he needs to keep his body and soul together in a proper way. This is an automatic rejection of Capitalism which needs people to be ever purchasing more and more needless things. The Vaisnava has no need for needless things.

A Vaisnava does not reject work but rather works in the spirit of devotion which includes working for the good of all living entities to benefit them spiritually and materially. This is the perfection of the idea of each taking from the pot what he needs while contributing according to his means.

The false communist thinks that it is enough to work in devotion for the collective represented as the state.

The Vaisnava sees the "collective" as the totality of all living beings as spiritual sparks of Krsna irregardless of material form and work in devotion to Krsna must also include that His parts and parcels i.e. the collective.

Vaisnava communism is complete whereas Marx and co.have tried to X God out. Therefore they are simply a disturbance to the human society in so much as they are opposed to the goal of human life which is developing love for God.

Hare Krsna,
comradesoul

[Danielle Field]

I'm sorry Theist. I didn't mean to disrespect you. I know you've responded a couple of times. I feel like I have to go over everything I've said already to respond to you BDM. Yes I do chant everyday. I used to chant so much that I chanted in my sleep. I have damaged my voice from being in Iskcon because I had to chant even when my vocal chords were damaged. Karma or abuse or should I not distinguish? I chant in my head when I can. The only books I read are Prabhupada's. I understand where Marxists are coming from without reading their books which often confuses and disturbs them. I have read Rosa Luxembourgs the Mass Strike and some of Marx's works on religion. I listen to people and this is how I learn.

I'm really finding talking on this website much more difficult than I anticipated. Its not the best method of communication. I just want to see members of Iskcon and Vaishnavas generally inspired to change the world the way that socialists are. They have changed so much and you will never know. This really will be my last post until I get access to the Internet outside work but I just wanted to apologise for any offence. I don't think I'm ready for this yet, but I will be in time.

[theist]

No offense Danielle. I was mostly thinking of Gaurachandra's bringing up Distributism which I had hoped would develop more than it did.

One problem with message boards is that an interesting topic like this one gets a lot of thoughtful replies making it impossible for the thread starter to answer them all adequately. I really do understand that. It is good that you gravitated to BDM to converse with so you could develop that conversation. I post as much to the subject as anything else. This one subject is one is I use on another forum (where I sign as comradesoul) as a different angle from which to present theism. I find that modern Christians have somehow been polluted into thinking Capitalism and Christianity are cut from the same cloth. This thinking is deadly to the spiritualist who should be trimming his desires down to one, serving the Lord, and not chasing after the shiny trinkets displayed by the Capitalist exploiters.

I also like to to challenge the atheistic Communists and show them that communism is inherent in the tenets of religion and is actually only perfected in spiritual realization. They act like Marx invented the wheel or something. Their brand of communism is incredibly inadequate when matched up to spiritual communism.

Now don't risk responding. You need to keep that job to get some $ to buy your own box. That way you can rejoin us in peace and carry this conversation on.

pranams sistersoul.

[Kulapavana]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field I just want to see members of Iskcon and Vaishnavas generally inspired to change the world the way that socialists are. They have changed so much and you will never know.

Prabhupada started the Hare Krsna movement with a very broad vision for not only religious but a social and cultural change as well. Over the years after his disappearance that broad vision gradually deteriorated in our mvement and is now practicaly lost. On the surface we are now merely a religious group, one of many just struggling for a basic survival. Our movement lacks the vision on the ladership level and because of it, it lacks unity.

Yet, I firmly believe that Krsna has a great plan for us, and that from the next generation of devotees real leaders with vision will emerge in our movement, making it an important instrument of change in the world.

[Danielle Field]

I have experienced such a great advancement in my spiritual development in the association of socialists than I ever did in the association of "devotees". As such I am completely attached to their association because in spite of their desire for me to give up my sentimental attachment to religiosity it is their company that actually inspires me to chant and read Prabhupada's books.

They are committed to overthrowing the spell that Maya has cast over the material world in the form of Capitalism. Capitalism demands the subversion of all truth in order to maintain this perverse form of economic organisation. Capitalism makes waste out of progress, starves people because of overproduction. It melts all that is real into thin air and subverts every religious priniciple, commodifying all religious organisations and making them nothing but corporate shells that serve the wretched.

I want to bring about a social revolution that will unleash the potential of human kind to engage in its natural desire to serve God. I believe the Golden age is already upon us and that it is only capitalism which holds us back. Capitalism rid the world of all the hitherto superstitions and traditions. Without those fetters human kind could begin a new taking only what was necessary for survival and developing social relations according to the souls need for decent and nourishing association and the development of consciousness. But we have to get rid of the demons subverting all that is good in human culture.

I believe Prabhupada's mission has worked but that there needs to be a revolution within Iskcon to get rid of those who are currently holding the wave of devotional culture back with their contaminated capitalist notions of controlling the individual rather than allowing their natural devotion a platform for expression. I have seen from experience that the socialist principles of the social organisation of labour are actually based around devotional principles of good association that Prabhupada enunciated in the nectar of instruction. Socialists associate like this organically without the threat of hell hanging over them. The world is ready. It is time for devotees to take their service seriously and make the world a new, to take advantage of the forces of revolution to sweep away the evil that is rotting away the heart of the world.

Socialists are only skeptical of religious belief because they analyse from a material perspective that religions only serve to control people and therefore can be of no use to developing a better world. I see my duty to Prabhupada to infiltrate their ranks and show them a conception of God that goes deeper than this, to help them to understand that they can conceptualise their own worship beyond the strictures of capitalistic forms of religious subversion. I do not take offence at their atheism and am also aware that many these days are more open to spiritual beliefs.

The other reason they often don't take God consciousness seriously is because they meet people with such horrific politics claiming that they are acting on Gods order and so they reject God out of hand believing politics is more important for the expression of compassion. It is our duty to seek out those people most attracted to the truth and to enable them to understand that God belongs to them and not to the Biggots and th zealots who claim to speak in his name.

[Danielle Field]

Socialism is not the path to spiritual liberation but in a world where devotee association has become a place of prolific bullying, woman hating, racism and homophobia I find the association of those who are less interested in blaming disempowered and minority groups for all the things that are wrong in the world inspiring and progressive. They are much more reflexive in their outlook and are keen to understand the truth at the heart of matters rather than twisting the truth to fit their limited vision of the world.

I have experienced joining an Iskcon community and this hardened my heart making the compassion which had drawn me to the light of Krishna consciousness become an unattractive sentimentality that was to be beaten out of me as a spiritual imperative. Socialists actually encourage the softening of your heart so that you can fight the good fight with humility and not rage.

I am not in this advocating that all socialists are humble and submissive. Many are the exact opposite. I am lucky. I am amongst socialists who have taken their philosophy seriously and have not ended at the point where they are satisfied to be part of a collective, resting on the laurels of their previous studies, believing they know it all. To be a socialist is to open up a consistant path of inquiry, and that path only concludes when the contradictions between capital and labour have been resolved. I believe from my experience that that path of enquiry will lead them, in time, to question the absolute. The softening of the heart that involves fighting for socialism will enable them to follow that path once they reach the crossroads.

I was at a socialist meeting last night and there were many Muslims in attendance approx 300:100 white people. There were black people there also and a minority of Jewish people who were there to establish that Zionism is the antithesis of all that is good and holy and that no self respecting Jew would subscribe to such a deadly philosophy, to offer solidarity to Muslim's around the world being persecuted as they had been during the holocaust. Atheists and theists alike were agreed on all things that the world can only be rid of the scourge of evil when the system of Capitalist production has been overthrown.

Capitalism is a system based on gambling and it capitalises upon the worst and weakest characteristics in human nature. Socialism is a means of socially organising the world so that the purification of human culture becomes the raison d'etre of economic organisation. This is what Prabhupada advocates in the introduction to the Srimad Bhagavatam. He states that the Bhagavatam is the light of the world, and it is. See how it is lighting the world bringing together people of all faiths and cultures, atheists and theists alike. See how the Bhagavatam is dramatically overturning the structures of evil that have held human consciousness captive for so many ages. See how it is effecting those who have not even touched its beautiful pages to rise up in solidarity against the forces of evil and inspiring the human race to build the world anew.

Socialism is not the answer, it is a symptom of this cultural uprising. Socialists are not pure devotees, they are compassionate human beings, whose devotion to the development of a culture in which human consciousness can expand and errupt should not be overlooked or misunderstood. I hope someone will read this and understand the importance of this message. I am not capable of conveying its importance as a solitary actor.

Haribol.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field Socialism is not the answer

That is the only part of your posting which rings true....

[Danielle Field]

In stating that socialism is not the answer I mean that it doesn't claim to be an answer. It is a process that will enable the creative energies within humankind to be released so that the world can be re organised around productive, creative principles. No self respecting socialist, in the light of the hideous stalinist regime, would claim to know exactly what a socialist society could or should look like. Rather it is with an eye to faith in human beings to actually articulate a world, given the right social and economic structures to do so, are capable of living peacefully.

We need a world in which ignorance can be combatted through providing education even of a material nature to all people and ensure that it is not just a privilege of the rich. Prabhupada said that we will not become spiritually aware until we are material aware. When so many in the world cannot read or write how can we expect ignorance to be dispelled and the Bhagavatam to be read by all? We need communities that can provide their collective needs communally and not one in which we have to fight as individuals for access to health care and security. These are collective needs and should be met collectively. To encourage a system of "meritocracy" is to ensure that there must be loosers within the system so that winning takes on more meaning. The winners are always going to be those who started the race with more resources.

Devotees need to be thinking practically about how to bring about a spiritual revolution and stop being so insular in their spiritual development. Insularity brings fearfulness. How can you hope to become spiritually aware when you are fearful of protecting your individual development of consciousness in a world racked with ignorance and sin? God lives within human culture and it is our duty to do what is necessary to make human culture offerable to God and then invite Him to inhabit it.

It is not just our own hearts that need to be purified. If you simply attempt to develop your own consciousness and damn the rest of the world to live in ignorance and war you will not develop devotion to Krishna, you will simply exacerbate your tendency to devote your activities to your self.

Socialism offers a revolutionary means via which to organise economic principles around collective needs which will enable us to have the time to develop our individual relationship with God. Capitalism robs us of this collective organisation which is inherent within Prabhupada's teachings on Varnashrama Dhama. Capitalism forces us to strive for an individualistic existence to meet our collective needs and thereby prevents us from devoting our individual energies towards advancing our personal relationship with Him.

[theist]

The Capitalists will sometimes agree that everything comes from God but instead of using it in His service they prefer to try and enjoy it separately through a false sense of ownership and control. Therefore even if they claim some belief they are still demons.

The materialistic communists also do not acknowledge the ultimate propriority of the Lord and in most cases they view religion as an "opiate of the masses". Therefore they are also demons.

There is no need to go to the atheists or demons to learn how to construct a proper society. It is all contained perfectly in vedic teachings and specifically within Vaisnavism.

For instance both Capitalism and materialistic Communism ignore the sva-dharma of the citizens. We have seen how the industrious members of society were treated after Castro's revolution and we have seen how the intelligent class was treated in China after Mao took over.

To take an academic and force him into factory work is not only ridiculous but also criminal.

Only in theistic communism do we see the materially acquired mental natures of the citizen being put to proper use towards the ultimate realization of their nitya dharmic natures as eternal servants of the Supreme Absolute. Karma yoga.

[Danielle Field]

The point I am trying to make is that we have not done a very good job of establishing theistic communism because, by and large, Iskcon has fallen pray to capitalistic thinking. We tend as a group to believe that people who are in a fallen condition deserve to be there because of their karma and do not apply our spiritual knowledge and compassion towards creating a world in which all people could develop spiritual consciousness. Prabhupada had this vision which is why he came to the west when all his good friends told him that it was a mistake, we were all demons.

My point is that Prabhupada found an eager audience in hippies who were engaged in what the more prurient amongst us would categorise as demoniac practices. But were they demons? No, because when they were introduced to a higher way of living they embraced it willingly. Socialists for the greater part exhibit a higher level of compassion and are more materially aware of the world political situation because they are part of that world and are not hiding from it within the confines of religious communes. I understand why they are dubious of religious sects as most have become a by-word for brainwashing and the diminishing of spiritual consciousness.

Because most devotees are now more keen to protect their own personal advancement within a world they increasingly fear because they are separated from and therefore do not understand. Their fear, I believe, is caused for a greater part by the lies that capitalism peddles in order to control us. We cannot trust each other, we are all ruthlessly selfish and would prefer to earn money for our own keep than to contribute to a collective pot, compassion is dead long live individualistic consumerism.

I believe that the world has advanced due to its growing awareness that the dominant economic system is robbing them of what it means to be human. In socialists I see a greater sense of what it is to be human because they are willing to challenge the lies that the capitalist system puts forward by proving people are willing to fight for the rights of others and show solidarity with those suffering at the hands of ruthless oppression in other countries around the world. My experience within Iskcon was that most of the devotees were too afraid even to show solidarity with each other for the sake of developing Iskcon let alone have compassion for those that are being bombed or starved into submission by the ruthless bullying of the ruling class.

If I thought we were doing anything like spreading theistic communism I would be happy to get on board but we're not. As a group we have become inward looking, selfish and concerned only for our own spiritual development. I think socialists have a lot to teach us in terms of organising to create a world in which compassion and not dollars are the currency that we exchange. Socialists are closer to creating that world than we are right now because they are actually applying their intelligence to the task and committing themselves to it. got to go again. sorry.

[Danielle Field]

Ok, got another little window here. I have already discussed the fact that leaders like Stalin, Castro and Mao were perverting the principles of socialism in order to gain power. By usurping the collective will of the populace and directing it towards creating 'socialism in one country' these leaders have misunderstood the basic principle that capitalism is a global system and can only be overthrown globally. As such I do not feel any need to challenge the proposition that socialism of necessity leads to dictatorship. It is socialism within one country that leads to dictatorship of necessity because it is trying to create a false position within the wider capitalist system and simply makes the whole country act as nothing but another corporate structure that relates to the wider world through capitalist relations.

We are spiritual communists. This is what I am trying to reinvigorate the movement with, a sense of what actual communism is. At the moment Iskcon isn't fighting for spiritual communism. It is defending capitalistic relations within the temples and it is propogating practices which alienate devotees from their labour which is exactly what the ruling class does to the proletariat. In one of Theist's responses which i didnt' have time to get back to you wrote that socialists didn't recognise that labour was sacred, that they had some notion of ridding the world of labour so that we could all enjoy materially without interuption. For socialists work is integral to the spiritual development of human beings. Their labour determines who they are. If they are alienated from their labour in terms of producing items such as clothing, houses, or indeed profits that they will never derive any organic use from this alienates the workers from their labour. This in its turn alienates them from a conception of God. Devotional labour is what unites us with God and it is for this reason that I believe Capitalism is evil manifest. Not only does it rob people of the opportunity to labour by creating unemployment as a means of controlling the labouring classes with the threat of the importation at any moment of a surplus army of labour, it simultaneously drains labour of any devotional sensibility so that working itself becomes nothing but a means of surviving by gaining money.

If we could begin to understand from a purely economic position exactly what was so wretched about the capitalist mode of production then our arguments about the importance of loving God would take on more meaning when we are preaching to the public. People would see the practical objective in our mission. They would understand that we have a purpose and a plan. Currently most devotees are running on blind faith hoping that Krishna will do something to change the world so that people will listen. My experience is that it is not that people will not listen. They are ready to hear but along the way since Prabhupada's departure the movement has become corrupted by capitalistic thinking, blame people don't help them. Bomb people don't feed or educate them. Racism, sexism, homophobia, all these means by which the ruling class divide and control us have become prolific within Iskcon thinking and practice.

My objective is not to get devotees to join the socialist movement as a means to bringing about God consciousness although I have found the association of socialists conducive to developing spiritual consciousness. Rather I want devotees not to misunderstand the compassion manifest in the hearts of socialists and to try and develop a deeper understanding of what it is they are trying to achieve because we should be strategising how to overthrow capitalism also in order to manifest Varnashrama Dhama. My mission also is to radicalise ISKCON because it has simply become yet another religious business functioning within this wretched economic order. We need to overthrow Capitalism from within ISKCON itself and have faith that there are practical measures we can implement to spiritually revolutionise the world. I want to challenge the tendency within devotees to fear their own fall down and act as timid individual protectionist spirits. Go forth and blooming well multiply the movement! Recognise that there is a problem and be willing to address it. Learn from organisations that are growing and try to understand what it is we're doing wrong. Don't fall for the traps that the ruling order have deliberately set to separate us from the growing number of people out there who are desperate to change the world and make it a nicer place. Talk to them. Do not assume just because they are socialists they are impenetrable demons. Maybe its ISKCON that is impenetrable and not socialism.

Prabhupada came to the west with a thirst to speak to so many different organisations and to empower these organisations with spiritual arguments so that they became purified from within. In order to assist him do that he opened and maintained centres committed to spiritual principles so that they could be armed with the knowledge of how to go out and convince others how to change the world. Now what we have is people making a show of preaching by speaking to some groups and yet shunning others believing they are too wicked for redemption, then running back to the "preaching centres" to hide from the world and pray that Krishna makes it better for them so that preaching gets easier. We have become frightened and devotees have no business being frightened, not even for their own spiritual redemption! Your own spiritual redemption is assured if you put others before yourself and go out and preach!!!
Take care, D.