Socialism and Vaishnavism

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field If worker's organised and overthrew the state they would then be in a position to counter attack any capitalist attempt at counter revolution and devise a society that doesn't contain inherent contradictions of interest. If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness.

I hear talk of 'revolution like this and - I'm concerned - the very idea of encouraging 'the workers' [or anyone] to 'overthrow the state' - is disconcerting. The western states do not need such a fix and in those places that might - it's improvident to encourage people to such risks of themselves and/or others.

In what manner do you propose this 'revolutionary overthrow of the state' to occur?

You write:

"If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness."

Even though you apparently say "not through means of force" that comment tells me that you are inclined to fight [if even by well-wishing in your heart] along with the global islamic revolution [who by the way are not fighting for a better world] - you seem to think that a "revolution" is needed and that religious people should not 'shun those fighting for a better world' - you seem to say that is the answer to make the world 'holy' - that is interesting - when taken with your comments in these other postings:

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/world-review/413646-religion-responsible-israel-palestine-problem-2.html]

"[muslims]have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies... Its easy for me to say though, I'm not a Muslim and can only imagine how appalling it must be to watch people of my faith being slaughtered and defiled on so many different fronts the world over, just as the Jewish population once experienced. How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..."

If Muslims seem to be in a bad light it's only because of the terror programs of radicals and militants that claim to be acting on behalf of Islam - the comparison to the persecutions of the Jews in previous times - is complete illusion.

You explain away the islamic revolution's terrorism which is growing in our world in this statement:

"...[muslims] have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies...How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..." - that is factually a predaceous perspective. It is so much appolgetics for terrorists.

Muslims are NOT being targetted in the manner in which you say - especially in North American nor can one see that in Europe either.

"Socialism demands nothing of the people, it is an expression of their desire for a better world. It cannot be attained by force..." - that seems to contradict your ideas of the 'workers over-throwing the state' - as you seem to be saying that [since] it isn't by force that people become socialists but - it is by force that socialists and communists try to gain widespread control - it is a natural course.

Without doubt - it is propaganda huckstering at the heart of any transformations of most peoples - into socialists and communists not - "an expression of their desire for a better world" that "desire for a better world" is what the 'propaganda hucksters' employ to blight the average person's political and economic undertandings hopes and expectations - especially when concering the less informed 'worker classes'.

It's a desire for power - in a more absolute capacity that captures the 'others' to such 'collective predation' ideologies.

These points do seem to eclipse one another in your postings.

The kind of 'revolution' of which you speak is not constructive - look to Mao and the 'peoples revolution' - yes there's the model - of course - i do understand that you wish to add the 'vedic' concept to the socialism - however - i wonder about the end result - as contrasted to your call for revolution and with whom you'll identify in that effort.

You wrote this in another posting on this thread:

What I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion with someone and I'm getting a bit tired of the tit for tat nonesense that goes on in here. What do you mean when you say it sounds like you don't want to change my thinking? What's the point in saying that? I have had to change my thinking dramatically to come to the conclulsions that I have arrived at. I would still be an Iskcon numpty otherwise. I've been brainwashed and I've recovered with the help of people who have been willing to engage in debate and take on new ideas and I'm hoping to continue that trend.

"I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion" - So that is what you've gotten from us "ISKCON numpty's" - i wonder how you can say that you were brainwashed [by ISKCON?] and that you "would still be an ISKCON numpty" and - still talk of Prabhupada's teachings.

Who helped you to 'recover' [from what?] and how did they do that?

One can hear you praise Marx [and his estimation of things] in many places within your postings and yet - you haven't really presented any substantive Prabhupada quotes? I wonder if it is that you wish to motivate 'less informed devotees' into your persepctive by a seeming connection to Prabhupada's position on these matters...

Here is something that Srila Prabhupada stated - to a leader - which makes good sense and - it is a far better approach - than widespread Marxism and/or any other such [false] 'empower the people' programs:

Prabhupada: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view.

Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the...

Prabhupada: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he’ll manage, he’ll manage. But if he’s not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn’t matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. [Room conversation with Lord Brockway, July 23, 1973]

So that is an interesting point:

...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate our leaders] and now with the WWW and their broad interest in things that are discussed around the world - they can become thus 'educated' as he notes.

The point to know too is that the 'perfection' of which he speaks concerns position rather than actual personal perfection because - while no one is perfect - one can be 'perfectly situated'. So that is the idea.

In so far as my understanding of Prabhupada that is the program to save the world.

Sincerely,

[theist]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field Thanks for getting back to me. I'll try and clear a few things up. To Theist who spoke a couple of entries ago I'd like to say I'm aware of the floors with the varieties of existing "socialism" that we have seen in the world and I'm no advocate of socialism in one country. When this happens the country itself tends to become nothing but a corporate state in which all the activities of the state function as a large company within the wider capitalist system. Capitalism is a global system and only when it has been overthrown globally will socialism in truth be realised.

Wishful thinking I believe Danielle. Even if Capitalism were to be overthrown globally, which is not going to happen in the next thousand years, human nature being what it is, the overthrowers would just enthrone themselves as they became addicted to the sense of power they have gained,i.e. Mao, Stalin, Castro etc.

Let's not think of these Red "revolutionaries" as selfless beings come to save the day and who work only for good of all others. They are not. The problem I see with this ideology is that it has no metaphysics. If you want to combine socialism with Vaisnavism then you will have to apply the truths of Vaisnavism into the mix. I don't hear you doing that.

Socialism means nothing when it is not an expression of the will of the mass of people and so any enforced regime of socialism is a mockery of the concept.

Here is an example of what I said previously. The will of the mass of people is to be number one and so ultimately you have the mass of people in agreement on that point at least but the result will be as chaotic and unsatisfying as it is now as they all jockey for a better position.

Service to God and others as parts of God is integral to the living being and not the false attempt to be #1. No material scheme including socialism will ever cure this. You would end up with 6-7 billion people agreeing they have the best shot at being happy in the material wold through socialism but the problem is not one of them will achieve their goals. The living beings only real happiness comes from loving and serving Krsna.

What I think this analysis is indicating is how, when certain people are freed within society to speculate upon philisophical matters human society gains access to higher levels of knowledge and technology which enable greater insights to be made into the workings of consciousness the more people are freed from the mundane struggle for existence.

Right but that freedom to think on spiritual things you and I enjoy now and the world is not socialist.

As I heard one time when Srila Prabhupada arrived at an Indian airport after becoming famous through his mission in the west a reporter asked him if he was dvaita(dualist) or advaita (monist). Srila Prabhupada scoffed at the question and said a "hungry man does not want to discuss philosophy." India was at that time beset with famine (Bangladesh). So your point is well taken that as humans we must have our basic material needs met or we risk losing sight of spiritual life due to poverty. The rich man has a similar problem. He is also distracted away from spiritual life by over accumulation of material goods. Without the Vaisnava understanding as the basis for socialism the genuine goals of human life will never be realized no matter what the governing system happens to be. It is the absence Vaisnavism in Marx and Engles that renders them meaningless despite their many good ideas.

Krishna is knowledge and any advancements which allow for greater insights into knowledge and technology can be used to spiritually advance the greater populace.

Yes anything can be used as tools to search for Sri Krsna. But they are not essential. I don't need a Phd in neuroscience to analyze neurons in hopes of finding consciousness someday. That search all happens within by the grace of the Supersoul. Marx has nothing to say about the Supersoul so why should anyone be his follower?

I do feel uncomfortable doing this but I must so please forgive me. Prabhupada says we should be focused on agriculture and not industry and this may be true, but as far as I see it, unless there is some great cataclysm that destroys large sections of the world's population we are not going to return to feudal forms of organisation.

If you really want socialism to overtake the planet you will have to have some prototypes. And once established small local collectives will still make up the mass of the planets living and production arrangments. And the prime necessity will always remain grains and not nuts, bolts and Ipods. I don't hear Srila Prabhupada advocating for a return to feudal society. He does advocate simple living and high thinking. Factories are not simple living despite there being set up under Capitalist or Socialism .

According to the Bhagavad Gita labour is sacred. It engages our bodies in activities that bond us in Union through devotion with the Lord.

Agreed, most definetly. But you find that in the Bhagavad-gita and not the Communist Manifesto.

However, capitalism doesn't allow people to reep the benefits of this method of organisation. We are still trapped in the form of economic distribution of a previous age in which people worked as apprentice for a master, produced goods for that master, recieved payments and maintenance whilst the master reaped profits. Capitalists do nothing to engage in creative processes and yet reap most of the rewards. I'll have to go and continue tomorrow.

No argument here. But Marxism without Krsna is as much dead energy as large scale Capitalism without Krsna. Vaisnavism is transcendental to them both.

My friendily offered critique is that you are putting the cart before the horse.

[Samia]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field I think there is a massive rift that has grown between spiritually minded people and political people that doesn't need to be there.

And that is the whole of your problem

PS you say you don`t want tit for tat but you seem to take shots at ISKCON and its members as often as you can, so what is it ?

[Danielle Field]

In truth I didn't actually realise this was an Iskcon site. Sorry. I also missed these postings because I didn't realise we'd gone onto two pages so I'll look at your responses more thoughtfully and get back to you. I think there is a lot of unpacking of ideas going on and it looks like a better discussion than i first anticipated.

Ok. I have a problem with Iskcon because I lived in an Iskcon temple for 5 years and it was a deeply unpleasant and thoroughly unspiritual experience. I ended up with an eating disorder and kleptomania for which I was kicked out. I had become so institutionalised that I would never imagine the prospect of leaving of my own accord and it took me a good few months to recover. I went to university because I could no longer claim benefits after 6 months and it seemed like the only way I could get hold of money and spend as minimal amount of time with other people as possible. I didn't understand how to get a job or to live properly in the outside world.

At university I studied social policy and all the while I kept thinking of Varnashrama Dharma. I have never stopped believing it was possible and deeply desired to understand how it could be possible. I learnt about the economic organisation of society and the effects that social policies have on people's ability to rationalise the circumstances in which they find themselves. This actively enabled me to understand everything that was wrong about life in an Iskcon temple and how the movement itself had fallen pray to the philosophy of the overarching economic order - Capitalism.

I began to understand that Capitalism was the Vaishya tendency driven out of control and thereby began to take socialist ideas of overthrowing capitalism on board having witnessed how a lack of critique of the capitalist order had driven Iskcon into disrepute. I don't believe as theist believes that these people are motivated by anything other than as desire to create a better world. I have spoken with them and worked with them and argued to the death with them and I find them to have many spiritual qualities. It frustrates me that it is often misguided beliefs about religion that prevent them from articulating the faith that is obviously there is their hearts.

They sacrifice their time and resources selflessly for the cause and in that I see the spark of devotion. The problem is that whenever they encounter someone of faith they are derided and told that their efforts are worthless. At one time socialists were arrogant I daresay and the stain of that reputation has been hard to shift. Today they are not. They have grown and they listen so long as you can debate with them on their terms. The people I have been discussing with now admit for the large part that their atheism is more of a faith than a politcal necessity and are more open to the notion of agnosticism.

I went to a meeting last night on Marxism and Religion and found out that a 30% of the people in the room had a faith of one description or another and this is the case today. More and more religious people are getting involved in socialism because they are appalled by the horrors that the IMF, WTO and World Bank are enforcing upon the majority of the world's population. Yes you and I have enough material comfort to contemplate metaphysical issues but that is not the concern of a vaishnava. OUr concern is that all human beings be liberated.

Having studied global politics it is quite clear to me that it is capitalism which is holding Africa to ransom and preventing the growth of its infrastructures, it is capitalism which is displacing the world's population and creating rightless persons around the world who are ripe for exploitation in the capitalist nerve centres of the world. Capitalism polarises, it chops and changes and creates instability. My position is simply this, if you don't see that the world is already in turmoil and at constant war it is because you live in the belly of the beast at not at the ruthless end of its nashing jaws. The world is already in complete flux and will die not live to see another 100 let alone 1000 years unless people of conscience make the decision to act now. This is faith, faith that something can be done. Faith in Prabhupada that his mission will succeed.

Muslims who believe in separatist measures will fail to bring about the peace required to practice their religion. Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. The workers are actually in control of production the world over. Capitalists must use force, the threat of expulsion or denial of the right to labour in order to exact all the excess profits. It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply until that resource runs out and capitalism can function no longer in its present form.

I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. I don't know his or Marx's quotes by heart. I know that Prabhupada was skeptical of the motives of socialists but socialism has grown and it is ready, I believe to address issues of God Consciousness. So long as we take the need to change the world and make it a peaceful place seriously they will and do take us seriously. For as long as we say that the world is in no need of change and those that suffer do so at their own hands, they will not. Hope thats not too self orientated but I felt my opinions required a little context. I have nothing but respect for Prabhupada and sincerely fear challenging his position on socialism. This is why I must get to the bottom of this by consulting Vaishnavas.

Dear Danielle,

1. You sound like a smart person. What you are doing sounds like "engaged Buddhism". So just call it "engaged Hinduism" or "engaged Sanatana Dharma"
and you are on your way.

2. Atheism is also part of Hinduism. See recent entry by vijay under "Spiritual Discussions", thread of "Is ISKCON Hindu?"

3. Bhag Gita: "Whatever you do, do for Me."

So whatever you do, offer it to the Divine: whatever your conception of the
Divine is.

PS - You might enjoy the book, "Women, Race, and Class" by Angela Y. Davis
New York, Random House Vintage Books, 1983. She is one of the most famous African-American Marxist feminists in the United States.

It covers the period of time of slavery in the 1800s, women's rights and suffrage in the 1900s, to the modern day the issues of oppressed women. Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones wrote a song about her "Sweet Black Angel". This book and that song highlights the compassion that Angela Y. Davis has for the suffering of others.

In Sanskrit "charya pada" refers to good conduct. This is from the Agamas.
It is one of the four stages of progress on the path. In the charya pada satge one learns how to live righteously and serve selflessly, performing karma yoga. That sounds like what you and your friends are doing.

May Supreme Goddess bless you!

[Danielle Field]

Thanks for being so supportive. I will definitely follow your leads. Thats what I feel I'm needing, some guidance. I feel the loss of a genuine guru greatly having been duped into accepting a false one previously. Your most kind to take me seriously and it is appreciated.

[theist]

Danielle,

This is not an Iskcon site. Many have different affiliations other than Iskcon and many of us have no specific affiliation. No need to overly censor yourself.

Radhe! Radhe!

[theist]

Gauracandra prabhu,

I was wondering if you might give us a short synopsis on the Catholics Distributism. I had never heard of it before.

Dear Danielle,

You're welcome. You sound very serious and sincere. I am so sorry to hear about your bad experiences with losing a guru. This has happened to me also.
More than once.

I want to give you every possible bit of support that I can. In a most interesting book called "The Jewel Ornament of Liberation", translated by
Gampopa [a Sanskrit text smuggled into Tibet so it would not be lost or
destroyed] is delineated various types of kukarmas or papa, sins.

One of the most heinous sins is to cause someone to lose faith in the dharma. So there will be a karmic reaction for people who act in such a
way to destroy faith in the dharma.

However, I have found [for myself] that the dharma is eternal. And it can
spring up in the most unlikely ways in front of our eyes. Such as you have discovered a timeless truth that it feels good and morally right to help others and to have compassion for others, and not just to talk about it but to live it.

All glories to you! I have learned so much about what the dharma means
from ordinary people, including atheists. In fact, when I was exploited two, three times in a row by a string of gurus/ spiritual authorities as a young person, then it was an atheist family that helped me to get back on my feet.

I hope that it helps you to feel better that in Hinduism there is even atheism.
Know for sure that God is in each and every person's heart. Know that God
has many faces, attributes, and names, and people have different relationships with the Absolute at different times.

That is why within Hinduism there is even a school of atheism, because it is
another facet of the search for the Divine.

I wish you well and I wish you the best. Many, many a time I have been so
freaked out and upset by some people's conception of the "spiritual path"
that I turned and ran in the opposite direction, hoping to run as far away
from Krsna as I could. However Krsna is very funny Guy.

Perhaps you have heard some stories about Him. He doesn't lose interest in
people very easily. Plus He is magical. So you can think you are running
thousands and millions of miles away from Him to get away from Him. You
can be running as fast as you can in what you think is the opposite direction.

However what I have found is usually you end up running smack into Him,
like in the cartoons about Wiley Coyote and the Road-runner. Krsna is quite
humorous Trickster and the original Merry Prankster. Of course it is not so
funny to us when bad things happen to good people.

But what that does is: you are forced to go within when bad things happen. You are forced to re-evaluate what is real and what is unreal. Then if you
are sincere, like how you sound to me, then you upgrade all of your precious
conceptions. And what is God if not the Absolute Truth?

I am just amazed how sincere you are: that you would still even care about
what Prabhupada might think or say after all that you have been through.
You sound to me like a courageous, remarkable person with a heart of gold.

Use your internal compass for what you think is pure and true and worthy of
putting all of your energy and attention into. By serving others and caring about others, not ourselves, we develop the soul body according to some
rsis. The anava mala drops off [anava = the ego] by thinking of others and
not just ourselves.

The anava mala is comprised of 36 evolutes or tattvas. At the time of death we want to have lived a good life so that all 36 beads on the anava mala drop off and all we are left with is our own pure spark of the Divine, saccidananda or the anandamaya kosha face to face with the Divine
who is beyond all tattvas.

Some unfortunate persons are put into a position where they appear to be
spiritual and learned but actually they are adding even more beads to the
basic 36 tattva anava mala ego we all have. Keep on being a good girl and
doing the right things, pray to God from the core of your heart.

"When the soul gradually reduces and then stops altogether its participation in darkness and inauspicious powers, the Friend of teh World, God, reveals to the soul the limitless character of its knowledge and activity." - - Mrigendra Agama Jnana Pada 5.A1. MA, 138.

There are many many scriptures in Hinduism revealed by the great risis and seers besides the Bhagavad Gita to help souls evolve. In fact there are 14 valid sampradayas in HInduism which correspond to the 14 currents in the sushumna or the kundalini power of the spine that can take you to the door of Brahma the highest chakra. Perhaps an All-Merciful God was even anticipating that some souls would be fried with certain groups by doing so.

The Agamas describe the charya pada path as the first stage towards the soul developing the spotless purity needed to become fully mature. I congratulate you for treading the charya pada path and I wish all the
very best success on the path, in life, and with everything to you!

Aum Tat Sat
Namaste

[Gauracandra]

Theist,

Distributism is an economic philosophy developed by two Catholic thinkers (inspired by the Papal encyclical Rerum Novarum) in the early 1900s by the names of G.K. Chesterton and Hilaire Belloc. Chesterton was a very well known writer (throughout the English Empire) and journalist who converted to Catholicism late in life. He is said to have written an article that inspired Gandhi to start his non-violent protests against the English (though I've never found the article itself). What I've heard is that the article essentially calls on India to be more Indian and in so doing they could remove the British control of their country (apparently he also inspired Irish rebellions in
much the same way). It is interesting in this connection that Gandhi's philosophy of small farming, crafts, and village life is very much similar to Chesterton's philosophy of Distributism.


Distributism is based on subsidiarity or doing things at the lowest level possible and as the name would suggest about the distribution of capital especially physical capital in the form of land. Now it is specifically in this way that it differs from Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism. You see, in
capitalism the wealth naturally concentrates into the hands of fewer and fewer people. Why is this so? Because after a certain point in wealth accumulation all of one's basic needs are taken care of. Capital, which is that which is left over after consumption, therefore continues to accumulate. Socialists and communists saw this same principle at work
and so the socialists decided they should have a government that takes wealth from the capitalists and create various social programs, through which they controlled society. In this case socialism takes the wealth from the industrialists and puts it into fewer hands - those of bureaucrats (who of course always do what is right, and never stifle new ideas). Communists basically said "Since wealth and power are going to concentrate, in the first stage of capitalism, and in the second stage of socialism, lets just jump straight to the logical conclusion of the third stage of communism and take over all the production."


Enter Distributism which says the problem with capitalism, socialism, and communism is that they keep concentrating power. They build huge structures up that oppress the people below that have to hold it up. What needs to happen is to break up power, and redistribute it to the people. As Chesterton says, the problem with Capitalism is it results in too few capitalists. In this respect,
Distributism affirms the principle of private property but not unlimited private property. Chesterton says the institution of private property no more means the right to unlimited property than the institution of marriage means the right to more than one wife. Lines are drawn and limits set as we live in a world of constraints. Now that might initially require government intervention simply because the current system has become so top heavy as it is.


The goal is to establish as wide ownership of land as possible as well as instituting laws that protect the small business person against the large corporation. Industrialism was already starting to have its toll even in pre-War Europe. The small farmers were starting to feel the pressure from industrial farming, and today there are virtually no small farms in existence. At the same time the small shops have been destroyed by Megacorporations such as Walmart (which has a market capitalization of like a quarter of a trillion dollars). It is funny, several years ago Walmart tried to enter into Vermont and all the small store owners in Vermont banded together to keep Walmart out. What did Walmart do? They sued claiming these puny little small stores were being uncompetitive. Competition in capitalism is when the big guys consume the small guys. But if the small guys get together to fight for their very survival well thats just wrong.


Ultimately Distributism saw the effects entering the culture. In the first place you had a culture of ownership. If you owned your own farm, or owned your own shop, or owned your own set of tools and had a skill, you had a sense of self-worth. Even if you weren't rich you could control your life. You could get up when you needed to. You could arrange time off to be with your family. You had a place in society. But with the concentration of power you lost that inherent human dignity. In Capitalism the boss told you when to arrive, what to do, when to do it. In Socialism the government
told you when to arrive, what to do, and when to do it. You lost the dignity of self-determination.


That is not to say they were against business. But the flavor of society so to speak should be about small property ownership, small business, crafts and skills that are community based. There should be community art and culture. In this way you actually have diversity. Part of the country will be very different from another part of the country. But with mass merchandising, mass advertising, mass communications, we break down diversity, and while everyone thinks they are getting a great variety, in fact they find they are just getting the same thing over and over.


Now how to go about this? Even they thought it would be a feat similar to swimming against Niagara Falls. But they believed, one way or another, society would move back to a simpler structure. Either by choice or by collapse. There are a number of suggestions of what to do, for instance changing the tax code to give breaks to small farms and small businesses, over corporations. The corporation is basically a way of accumulating mass capital through selling small shares, thus corporations as distinct from sole proprietorships naturally work to concentrate wealth. Creating Guilds for various occupations to ensure the training and wages of the working class. Other suggestions would be for the government to pass zoning laws against large shopping centers, free legal care for the poor so that the small man can fight the big man, the distribution of government land holdings to the people etc....


But ultimately it comes down to people choosing to build their communities, rather than having them shaped by impersonal invisible hands. In this respect I think the devotees are much further along than many Catholics, who talk in theory about Distributism. Say what we will about our farming communities, many are in various levels of success, but atleast devotees are actively creating them. They may not farm them (or many don't) but they are trying their best to swim up against Niagara Falls. I think because we are small, and because Srila Prabhupada explicitly told us to build rural communities, to us Varnashram is part of our religion (even if we haven't accomplished it). To Catholics it is virtually unknown and to move 1 billion people is very difficult.

[theist]

Thanks for the lucid explanation Gauracandra. 1900's huh? These were men gifted with remarkable foresight.

Swimming against Niagra...today more than ever. The soul travels on to it's new destination at death according to the tendancies it has acquired here on Earth. So to work in such a way that is in harmony with the Lord's plan for humanity can never be futile even though from the earthly angle the endeavor may seem fruitless.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Originally Posted by Danielle Field In truth I didn't actually realise this was an Iskcon site. Sorry. I also missed these postings because I didn't realise we'd gone onto two pages so I'll look at your responses more thoughtfully and get back to you. I think there is a lot of unpacking of ideas going on and it looks like a better discussion than i first anticipated. Ok. I have a problem with Iskcon because I lived in an Iskcon temple for 5 years and it was a deeply unpleasant and thoroughly unspiritual experience. I ended up with an eating disorder and kleptomania for which I was kicked out. I had become so institutionalised that I would never imagine the prospect of leaving of my own accord and it took me a good few months to recover. I went to university because I could no longer claim benefits after 6 months and it seemed like the only way I could get hold of money and spend as minimal amount of time with other people as possible. I didn't understand how to get a job or to live properly in the outside world. At university I studied social policy and all the while I kept thinking of Varnashrama Dharma. I have never stopped believing it was possible and deeply desired to understand how it could be possible. I learnt about the economic organisation of society and the effects that social policies have on people's ability to rationalise the circumstances in which they find themselves. This actively enabled me to understand everything that was wrong about life in an Iskcon temple and how the movement itself had fallen pray to the philosophy of the overarching economic order - Capitalism. I began to understand that Capitalism was the Vaishya tendency driven out of control and thereby began to take socialist ideas of overthrowing capitalism on board having witnessed how a lack of critique of the capitalist order had driven Iskcon into disrepute. I don't believe as theist believes that these people are motivated by anything other than as desire to create a better world. I have spoken with them and worked with them and argued to the death with them and I find them to have many spiritual qualities. It frustrates me that it is often misguided beliefs about religion that prevent them from articulating the faith that is obviously there is their hearts. They sacrifice their time and resources selflessly for the cause and in that I see the spark of devotion. The problem is that whenever they encounter someone of faith they are derided and told that their efforts are worthless. At one time socialists were arrogant I daresay and the stain of that reputation has been hard to shift. Today they are not. They have grown and they listen so long as you can debate with them on their terms. The people I have been discussing with now admit for the large part that their atheism is more of a faith than a politcal necessity and are more open to the notion of agnosticism. I went to a meeting last night on Marxism and Religion and found out that a 30% of the people in the room had a faith of one description or another and this is the case today. More and more religious people are getting involved in socialism because they are appalled by the horrors that the IMF, WTO and World Bank are enforcing upon the majority of the world's population. Yes you and I have enough material comfort to contemplate metaphysical issues but that is not the concern of a vaishnava. OUr concern is that all human beings be liberated. Having studied global politics it is quite clear to me that it is capitalism which is holding Africa to ransom and preventing the growth of its infrastructures, it is capitalism which is displacing the world's population and creating rightless persons around the world who are ripe for exploitation in the capitalist nerve centres of the world. Capitalism polarises, it chops and changes and creates instability. My position is simply this, if you don't see that the world is already in turmoil and at constant war it is because you live in the belly of the beast at not at the ruthless end of its nashing jaws. The world is already in complete flux and will die not live to see another 100 let alone 1000 years unless people of conscience make the decision to act now. This is faith, faith that something can be done. Faith in Prabhupada that his mission will succeed. Muslims who believe in separatist measures will fail to bring about the peace required to practice their religion. Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. The workers are actually in control of production the world over. Capitalists must use force, the threat of expulsion or denial of the right to labour in order to exact all the excess profits. It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply until that resource runs out and capitalism can function no longer in its present form. I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. I don't know his or Marx's quotes by heart. I know that Prabhupada was skeptical of the motives of soc