Hearing vaisnava apardha`is far more terrible then death, Deathless.

Perhaps read the entire narrative of Sati quitting her body in the fourth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam and see Prabhupada's comment in proper context then form your opinion.

I totally agree with you, unfortunately we aren't so advanced as to give up our lives and then there are others who think "giving up one's life" is irrelevant to our time. What I would like to say is this, why are the Puri pandas bullying ISKCON? We don't tell them what to do and when. I understand that there is a scriptural reference in regards to Ratha Yatra celebration, but I don't think that celebrations on separate dates should be regarded as "anti-Hindu" especially in India. What I see at these festivals are extremely fortunate souls taking Lord Jagannath's darshan, honoring prasadam and hearing His glorification; in most cases(especially in the West) these fortunate souls wouldn't otherwise be privy to any of these engagements. Everyone should appreciate this fact especially ISKCON devotees, so when anyone tries to criticize or reprimand us for such a minor offense to the Lord(if we can even call it that) we can easily and quickly neglect them. I don't think we should give these kinds of terrorists any power over us, simply because they are sticklers for rules. I firmly believe that Lord Jagannath is present in the western world just as much as, if not more than, Puri Dham. Otherwise, why would the Supreme Lord of the Universe make Himself visible in the West? Still to this day, when I hear or read the narration of Lord Jagannath's appearance in the west I get goosebumps. The Lord of the Universe, Sri Jagannath came all the way from Puri to America only by the love of His pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada and there is nothing they can do about it!

They burned Srila Prabhupada in effigy. That means if his "physical" body were present they would have burned that. They are demons and there is no force that could case me to attend a puja to Lord Jagannatha conducted by them.

There is no need for westerners to try and force their presence upon them and enter their temple. Lord Jagannaha means Lord of the universe. He is present everywhere already.

You understanding greatly inspire me to tell my deep supressed secrets. As the 12th initiated disciple of Prabhupada in meathead paradise (Australia) four years before you were born. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Your understanding is brilliant and you are way more advanced than so many Prabhupada disciples including me. Ramai Swami who at one point I greatly loved (wanted to serve) but he and the fools like Subabhati, treated me so coldly impersonally that I want to kill myself, but instead I JUST Walked AWAY. <o:p></o:p>
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Frankly l loved originally loved Ranai Swami in a devotional way, but to him I was just porn and a object to be patronized and treated as a no body that greatly effected my self esteem
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Abimanu dasa and Sri Prahlad I greatly admired and even though we did some of the most well known preaching on Australian Television, radio and newspapers, my mental illness, low self esteem and patronizing treatment fro devotee like RAMAI, and Sabo, did not really help.
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Here I was in charge of a bunch of Gurukuli kids and just allowed free rain.
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They all new my short comings, but still allowed things to go on saying ‘no-one can do what you do’
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What I’m about to write here is tho first time I have faced something that happened to me in 1972, Woke up one mooring and an American devote, very well known, was orally interfering with me. It freaked me out and only through recent psychiatric therapy was I able to face that I had considered an advanced devotee personal servant of Prabhupada to do such a thing.
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Psychologically this greatly scared me and I only told one devotee, whom this American devotee had also did the same thing to, D sometime later committed suicide due to being so embarrassed about what had happened. I was 18 (joined at 17) at the time and D***** was only 15, Prabhupada’s youngest initiate.
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Now you can all laugh at my honesty that screwed my devotional life up with confusion – we were only kids back then

What does Sati Devi dying for her husband have to do with Vaishyas and Shudras needing to kill themselves upon hearing an offense against one of Vishnu's worshipers? I get that you believe Shiva is a Vaishnava, and Sati Devi killed herself upon hearing him insulted, but I don't think Shiva or Vishnu want Vaishyas and Shudras to kill themselves when they happen to be in the vicinity of someone insulting a Vaishnava's choice of wardrobe or a goofy haircut.

i LOVE PURIS AND OKRA

Seriously try to think a little deeper. No one is talking about wardrobes or haircuts so why inject such a silly thing into the conversation? Everything is there in the narrative and the purports of Srila Prabhupada.

We can accept what he says and try to understand how to apply it in the context of todays society or not.

BY the way I haven't worn a dhoti or had a shaved head since 1971. I look more like my avatar, my childhood guru, Alfred. Alfred once said to me, "Son if you want to keep your groove smooth then never talk bad story about the enlightened ones."

I have nothing to new to add.

Hare Krsna

What is written below by Jahnava Nitai Das is not eactly correct in this age of Kali-yuga. By taking shelter of Lord Caitanyas pure devotee puts one above the need to apologise to anyone - Why? Because such srrender puts one above material bodily identity that is the cause of the offense.

So Technically the material body is controlled by the modes of nature, just as the puppet master controls a puppet.

Once we REALIZE it is just playing a role in Maha Vishnu's cosmic dream play, then we SEE the so called offence is just part of the LILA or 'PLAY' to make Prabhupada even more famous.

See the bigger picture of what is really going on here. I really believe Prabhupada woUld NOT be offended by a 'photo' being burned, in fact he would chuckle to himself and say

Srila Prabhupada would most likely say - "AH, NOW WE HAVE GOT THEIR ATTENTION, NOW THEY ARE STARTING TO RECOGNISE US".
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Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Jahnava Nitai Das
The story of Jagai and Madhai is specifically about an offense to a Vaishnava, and Lord Caitanya's response was not to "tolerate that offense and consider it a lesson in humilty fom Lord Krishna".

Rather Lord Caitanya wanted to punish the offenders severely.

Only the person who is offended has the right to forgive the offender.

None of us have the right to forgive the offenders who have offended Srila Prabhupada.

It is not within our rights to tolerate it, forgive them for it, or remain humble about it.

Why?

Because it wasnt an offense to us.

We can only tolerate our own sufferings, hardships and offenses. We have no right to tolerate someone else's sufferings, hardships or offenses.
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Technically the material body is controlled by the modes of nature, just as the puppet master controls a puppet. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Once we REALIZE it is just playing a role in Maha Vishnu's cosmic dream play, then we SEE the so called offence is just part of the LILA or 'PLAY' to make Prabhupada even more famous.<o:p></o:p>
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See the bigger picture of what is really going on here. I really believe a ‘photo’ being burned would NOT offend Prabhupada; in fact he would chuckle to himself and say <o:p></o:p>
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"AH, NOW WE HAVE GOT THEIR ATTENTION, NOW THEY ARE STARTING TO RECOGNISE US".<o:p></o:p>
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The story of Jagai and Madhai is specifically about an offence to a Vaishnava, and Lord Caitanya's response was not to "tolerate that offence <o:p></o:p>
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One day while Nityananda Prabhu was returning in the dark the two brothers accosted him. On learning His identity, Madhai became furious and struck Him with a broken earthen pot. When Jagai saw the blood flow from the wound, he became compassionate and restrained his brother. While Nityananda Prabhu patiently stood, looking at the brothers with compassion, tolerating the pain and humiliation,<o:p></o:p>
people ran to tell Caitanya Mahaprabhu about the incident.<o:p></o:p>
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Hearing that the brothers had hurt Nityananda Prabhu, Caitanya Mahaprabhu ran towards them with the intention to kill them. He summoned His chakra, which looked like death personified to the two terrified brothers. <b>However Nityananda Prabhu quickly intervened and begged Caitanya Mahaprabhu to stop. He reminded Him of His mission to kill the sinners by saturating them with love of Godhead. Thus appeased the Lord took back His chakra.</b><o:p></o:p>
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It seems none of us have the right to forgive the offenders who have offended Srila Prabhupada because they must seek forgiveness themselves however, in Kali-yuga, these rules have also changed thanks to the causeless mercy of Lord Nityananda. <o:p></o:p>
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We must preach intelligently for Krishna. <o:p></o:p>
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Doing nothing about ISKCON’s founder's 'photo' being burned is not Prabhupada's way. <o:p></o:p>
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Why? <o:p></o:p>
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We can tolerate our own sufferings, hardships and offences but we should NEVER tolerate our Spiritual Master being treated this way <b>even if he does see the bigger picture of Lord Caitanya's Golden Age unfolding.</b><o:p></o:p>
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All Glorious to Srila Prabhupada, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa ACBSP

Original sent to Dandavats -Anuttama dasa from ISKCON Communications recently wrote - <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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"The city of Jagannatha Puri is worshipable for members of ISKCON. It is an important holy place, or tirtha. It is the home of the famous Jagannatha Rathayatra, said to be the world’s largest annual religious event, which draws millions of pilgrims every year.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> One of Srila Prabhupada’s greatest achievements is that by his vision and personal direction Jagannatha Rathayatra is now observed-in an authentic, traditional manner-in dozens of the world’s major cities. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Rathayatra is now celebrated across India as well as in London, Paris, Moscow, Washington, D. C., New York, Los Angeles, Toronto, Durban, Sydney, and many other metropolises. Literally millions of people around the world attend ISKCON Rathayatras annually".

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See the bigger picture of what is really going on here. I really believe a ‘photo’ being burned would NOT offend Prabhupada.
So can we understand what is really going on and see the bigger picture of the dawning of a Golden Age of Spirituality?<o:p></o:p>
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Technically the material body is controlled by the modes of nature, just as the puppet master controls a puppet. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Once we REALIZE it is just playing a role in Maha Vishnu's cosmic dream play, then we SEE the so called offence is just part of the LILA or 'PLAY' to make Prabhupada even more famous.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
See the bigger picture of what is really going on here. I really believe a ‘photo’ being burned would NOT offend Prabhupada; in fact he would chuckle to himself and say <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
"AH, NOW WE HAVE GOT THEIR ATTENTION, NOW THEY ARE STARTING TO RECOGNISE US".<o:p></o:p>
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I base this assumption on an incident in Melbourne Australia when Prabhupada's life was threatened. As temple commander in 1976, PustaKrsna prabhu and myself told Prabhupada about the threat from a group of men in suites with guns from a Christian organization known as the Catholic Church. One of them known as Erikson, pointed a gun at me as I got out of a car, this was witnessed by Amogha dasa.

Prabhupada’s response –<o:p></o:p>
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Srila Prabhupada - "AH, NOW WE HAVE GOT THEIR ATTENTION, NOW THEY ARE STARTING TO RECOGNISE US".<o:p></o:p>
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The story of Jagai and Madhai is specifically about an offence to a Vaishnava, and Lord Caitanya's response was not to "tolerate that offence <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
One day while Nityananda Prabhu was returning in the dark the two brothers accosted him. On learning His identity, Madhai became furious and struck Him with a broken earthen pot. When Jagai saw the blood flow from the wound, he became compassionate and restrained his brother. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
While Nityananda Prabhu patiently stood, looking at the brothers with compassion, tolerating the pain and humiliation, people ran to tell Caitanya Mahaprabhu about the incident.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Hearing that the brothers had hurt Nityananda Prabhu, Caitanya Mahaprabhu ran towards them with the intention to kill them. He summoned His chakra, which looked like death personified to the two terrified brothers. However Nityananda Prabhu quickly intervened and begged Caitanya Mahaprabhu to stop. He reminded Him of His mission to kill the sinners by saturating them with love of Godhead. Thus appeased the Lord took back His chakra.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
It seems none of us have the right to forgive the offenders who have offended Srila Prabhupada because they must seek forgiveness themselves however, in Kali-yuga, these rules have also changed thanks to the causeless mercy of Lord Nityananda. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
We must preach intelligently for Krishna. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Doing nothing about ISKCON’S founder's 'photo' being burned is not Prabhupada's way. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Why? <o:p></o:p>
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We can tolerate our own sufferings, hardships and offences but we should NEVER tolerate our Spiritual Master being treated this way even if he does see the bigger picture of Lord Caitanya's Golden Age unfolding.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
All Glorious to Srila Prabhupada, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa ACBSP<o:p></o:p>

Another similar question is if the ISKON and Lord jagannath devotees follow same religious path... why the ratha yatra celeberation be on different dates

Another similar questions is : Different ISKON temples celeberate the rathayatra on different dates. Looks like another disagreement on the date. Perfect example for free will and free world

Daksha didn't attack Shiva for being a Vaishnava. He attacked him because he thought he wasn't good enough for his daughter. Sati still killed herself.
So, if someone wants to twist that story in such a way that it applies to all Vaishnavas, then that means that people must kill themselves even if the perceived "offense" has nothing to do with religion.

I don't see how encouraging an ancient feudal system and saying that people must kill themselves when hearing a Vaishnava insulted can logically apply to today's society.

I wasn't talking about ISKCON members wearing dhotis and shaving their heads.
I meant more that a person with a bad hair cut and stupid clothes could be a Vaishnava, and is opening himself to insult by looking strange. He is inevitably going to be insulted. So, when he is insulted, should all the women, Vaishyas, and Shudras in his immediate vicinity kill themselves? According to Prabhupada, they should.

Hare Ram.

Sorry to have to be so blunt but in the name of wanting to argue you reveal yourself as very slow minded.

The remedy wasn't for everyone to kill themselves. The alternative is to leave that place. As I suggested, boycott the Puri temple. These people are irrelevant.

No more discussion between you and me on this subject.

In their jurisdiction, they can celebrate in the manner they like.
Uniformity cannot be achieved. In various temples, Brahmothsavam is celebrated on different dates. Otherwise, on a particular day, everything will be finished and the rest of the whole year will have to be idle !
Pragmatism is required. After all every body is praising the Lord only.
Tolerance is required . This is my humble opinion.

I like your humble opinion. Simple isn't it.

Such humility must only exist among the saints!
Where did your guru say that? He said they had to kill themselves, not participate in some massive boycott or sit-in for civil rights.

Srila Prabhupada never encouraged suicide, he mentions this along with several other things that can not be performed in Kali-yuga due to the general degradation of society. In previous ages, suicide(as a last resort) was viewed as a respectable and honorable option under certain extreme circumstances(when all other methods fail). In Kali-yuga everything is backward, upside-down or inside-out... violence doesn't solve dilemmas, the demonic leaders just become more violent and continue destroying the earth. Demoniac people take birth in the higher castes or classes of men, yet despite their sinful attachments and unscruplous methods they maintain great merit in society. In Kali-yuga, no one is qualified to observe the strict rules of brahmacharya, therefore the sannyas vow is discouraged. Men are not allowed to take more than one wife or marry their sister-in-law in case of his brothers death(this was common in previous yugas)...and so on and so forth... the list is much too long...
There is just one point that I want to clarify: Srila Prabhupada was a great practical man, he didn't leave anything to chance, he got down to business and got things done. He wasn't a sentimentalist, never did he throw his arms up into the air and say, "OH, I give up". That is the kind of lazy mentality that everyone is associating with this topic, and that is not Srila Prabhupada's method and that is not the Hare Krishna method.
Besides... we're not a "cult" so poisoned Kool-aid just doesn't fit into our M.O.