>
> > For myself, I do secretarial work for a professor, but she is not a
> > devotee either. For either Janesvara or myself to use our occupations
> > to serve the Lord, the main way that we can do it is by karma-yoga.
>
>
> I am in agreement with this but I think some additional scriptural
> references would be helpful to elaborate on the idea:
>
> In my opinion, for a devotee, karma-yoga is the same thing as bhakti-yoga.

The examples you provided are the case of karma-yoga executed
in pure Krsna consciousness, thus being non-different from the
devotional service:

> "Service for the cause of the Lord is called karma-yoga or
> buddhi-yoga, or in plain words, devotional service to the Lord." >
Bhagavad-gita 2.51


Still, there is something that is called "bhakti-yoga" and
something that is called "karma-yoga" In the BG (5.2) Krsna
states:

"The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good
for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service
is better than renunciation of work."


However, simply having a job in some company, for the sake of
getting the pay-check that would provide me with the ability
to pay off my bills (flat, food, car, el, cloth, parking
tickets, a pizza-pie, much more, ...) we couldn't really call
"sevice for the cause of the Lord" nor "the renunciation of work"
either. But, by renouncing the portion of the fruit of our work
(our hard-earned money), as HKdd suggested, we are coming closer
to the "renunciation of work", that is technically called karma-yoga.
Personally, I would rather consider this (giving some of our money
in supporting preaching of KC) to be falling into the category of
"sacrificing the fruits of one's work for the spiritual cause".

But I wouldn't "nail it on the wall". It all, again, may differ
from an individual to another, depending on one's motivation and
consciousness. The example of Kolaveca-sridhar is there also.
And Bhaktivinode Thakura also had a job in the "karmi society",
just like many of us, right?



>
> While I would much prefer to be practicing and performing my duty directly
> in the society of varnasrama-dharma devotees I am not the director of the
> material nature and thus I will do my duty as the will of Providence has
> directed. There is no need for anyone to give up their duty as they were
> destined to perform; it is a matter of change of heart alone.

What HKdd is saying here, in the most bottom line, is:
"We need to perform our occupational duties in the daivi varnasrama
type of society in order to enhance our spiritual advancement."

And what you are replaying on, basically (as I see it, not your
original words):
"Not required. Though varnasrama would be preferable, to stay
employed in the present ugra-karma materialistic society is no
problem. That is what we have been given to by God, it is our
prescribed duty, so we got no need to change it, but only our
hearts alone."

The question is, then what varnasrama-dharma are you advocating
anyway? You are counting years, months, days and hours that the
same has not be implemented in ISCKON, getting on the case of
others, but on the bottom line you disclose to us how you yourself
don't really need it. You have provided yourself with the means
of maintenance, and all you feel the need for is the change of
the heart alone. Without being engaged in the performance of
specific prescribed duties as per your varna and asrama, under
the guidance of an authority within the structure of varna-asrama
system. No acceptance of particular responsibilities (apart the
responsibility of providing oneself with the required means).



> Bhismadeva
> was on the "wrong" side though a pure devotee. One of my worshipful
> deities, Sri Vivasvan Hiranmaya, whom I worship with prayers and
> obeisances every morning, performs his duty perfectly with no dampening
> effect on his pure devotion though he sheds his merciful heat and light on
> demon and devotee pursuits equally.
>

Maybe there are more differences here than similarities.

Bhismadeva was the great Grandfather of the Kuru dynasty. That
was "his side". Our employers are not our grand-grandsons, nor
the companies we work for to get the pay-checks are really our
dinasties in the varnasrama orginized society.

Comparing the position of Sun-god and our position, in term of
serving the "same side"??? He is one of the most important
Deities in the charge of running the Universe, executing it under
the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in the "company"
with other demigods, the devotees of Visnu. And we? Going to
job from 7.30 till 15.30, on the assembling line of "Microchip".
Or whatever.

The Son-god (nor any other Demigod) definitely does not need
varnasrama system in order to get the chance to perform his
duty properly. But the small insignificant humans on the assembly
line of some "Microschip" might be the right candidates for it.


>
>
> I DO NOT disagree with Mataji, but I think it wise to keep things clear
> lest the oft-ISKCON-practiced "give up distasteful duties and pretend I am
> a brahmana" consciousness will continue to erode the varna society.

I have not noticed anything of a kind in HKdd's text that would
demand this emphasizing the need for such a clearance.

She suggested the execution of our prescribed duties within
the frame of daiva-varnasrama society, to be employed in the
service to/under *devotees* of the Lord, rather than the
payed service under materialists (regardless of how nice they might
be). And you objected it (though you said you agreed with her) by
explaing hoe there is no dumping effect to our spiritual advancement
when we are employed within this present ugra-karma society, so no
need for what she proposed (though preferable, yes).

Are we now in the situation to preach to Janesvara prabhu the
importance and the need for re-establishing the varnasrama system
in this world?


--------------------------

That what you are referring with in your above statement(s) would
be rather the case of our being advised to remain honest: "Better
to be a honest sweeper on the street than a renounciate-pretender."
However, we ought to be aware that this is not supposed to mean
"It is just fine to remain a sweeper on the street, don't go
changing your destiny". There is a verse in the BG where
Krsna speaks about this situation:


"So as to not disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the
fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should
not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit
of devotion, he should engage them in all sort of activities
[for the gradual development of Krsna consciousness]"
(BG 3.26)

In the purport, Prabhupada explains:

"The learned Krsna conscious person may act in such a way
that the ignorant person working for the sense gratification
may learn how to act and how to behave. Although the ignorant
man is not to be disturbed in his activities, a slightly
developed Krsna consciousness person may directly be engaged
in the service of the Lord without waiting for other Vedic
formulas. For this fortunate man there is no need to follow
the Vedic rituals, because by direct Krsna consciousness one
can have all the results one would otherwise derive from
following one's prescribed duties."


So let's examine carefully the type of our activities/jobs
and compare it with the above descriptions. But then, yes, the
possibility of our getting disturbed might be there. On the other
hand, I certainly am not one of those "learned Krsna conscious
persons" as mentioned above, so I am simply quoting Bhagavd-gita
without much of consideration for the type of effect.




ys mnd

> When we get paid, we
> can
> offer some money to further the mission of Krsna consciousness. Ideally, we
> remember Krsna as much as we can while we are working, but the fact that the
> work we are doing for our livelyhoods does not directly support the spread of
> Krsna consciousness has a dampening effect on our Krsna consciousness.

Yet if these donations were going into an endowment that devotee trustees were
managing (ksatriyas) to create an economic base to subsidize farmers to protect
cows and produce foodstuffs for devotees (vaisyas), then everyone could be
enlivened that they were helping to build varnashram. The vaisyas would need
goods
and services that would stimulate demand that other devotees could fill,
creating
jobs (for sudras) and some excess that could be used to support brahmanas.

>
>
> How would it be different in a varnasrama society? In a varnasrama society,
we
> would both be serving devotees and what's more we would be serving them in
ways
> that were more tangibly linked to maintaining a Krsna conscious society.
>
> One point to remember is that although Srila Prabhupada explains that in
> varnasrama, every varna is independent except for the sudras -- still every
> individual in society is serving other devotees. Srila Prabhupada personally
> gave the example by serving devotees in many ways -- even though he was the
> topmost devotee in our society. Of course, one of his most important
services
> to us was to write many books. That was his service to us whom he viewed as
> devotees and simultaneously, it was bhakti-yoga his loving devotional service
> to
> Krsna. So even the brahmana is serving the devotees.
>
> So in a varnasrama society, we would see that the blacksmith is making a plow
> to
> serve a farmer. He is happy to use his skills to please the farmer because
of
> a
> personal affection he has for the farmer, because they share their
experiences
> in worshipping Krsna. The farmer is happy to use his skills to grow grains,
> one
> quarter of which he will offer to the ksatriya of the village. He is happy
to
> serve that ksatriya because he knows that the ksatriya is a saintly devotee
of
> Krsna who appreciates his hard work and always is careful to protect him and
to
> maintain harmony in the village. The ksatriya uses his skills to create a
> harmonious village which will be the ideal preaching field for the brahmana.
> He
> is happy to use his skills in this way because he loves the saintly brahmana
> and
> he knows that love is reciprocated (bhakti-karya relationships, as Prabhupada
> describes in the third canto). The brahmana, although he is the social head
of
> the village, actually considers himself to be the servant of all the members
of
> the village because he sees them as many-flavored devotees of Krsna.
>
> So in this way, the third principle -- serving Krsna by our occupational
duty,
> and according to our individual nature is observed. But the way we serve
Krsna
> is principally by serving his devotee. And naturally, that expands beyond
just
> the varnas. The wife serves her husband with love, because the husband is a
> servant of Krsna. The cowherd serves the cow with love, because the cow is a
> servant of Krsna.
>
> As far as principle 1, society really is harmoniously organized for the
> pleasure
> of Krsna. As far as principle 2, when people are engaged harnessing their
> natural ability in Krsna's service, they become expert in it, and they are
> well-appreciated in society. When society is properly organized according to
> varnasrama, then everyone actually is happy -- they don't need to be
convinced
> that they are happy.
>
> So, at least this is how ISKCON's evolution into the varnasrama society that
> Srila Prabhupada envisioned for us, as compared to our early pioneer days at
> the
> beginning of the movement.
>
> your servant,
>
> Hare Krsna dasi

At 23:24 -0800 6/1/99, COM: Gunamani (dd) ARD (Arhus - DK) wrote:

> I could continue but then it will be too long, the point is: simply
>thinking and acting as a devotee, aware of peoples stand, not fanatical, is
>preaching/bhakti-yoga? in itself, of course with qualitative differences, in
>the long run it might prove quite substantial. We will see.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. This is definitely what I missed when
I first "joined" ISKCON. There were no models, so I felt like I was making
it up as I went along.

> I would like to hear more about how others handle their situations as
>devotees, while living in a material society.
> Can you see any future in it?

Since I never lived in a temple and never have any full time ISKCON
service, this has been exactly what I have done too. Although I wish I
could serve in more substantial ways some day, I agree with you that simply
living openly as devotees, showing others that you can be a devotee of
Krsna and still function in regular society can make an impact. And it
definitely goes beyond simply wearing beads and having people ask about
that (which they inevitably do, at teh grocery store, post office etc.)

My children have always gone to non-devotee schools (both public schools
and private Montessori schools). All their friends know they are Vaisnavas.
It's given my children the opportunity to talk with their friends about
vegetarianism, bring in prasadam, share their holidays and history (we
bring their friends to Ratha Yatra, lend the schools various videotapes,
e.g. on the Ramayana etc). Both my children are good students, good
athletes and have served on their student councils (elevråd in Swedish).
To their friends and teachers, this has "normalized" ISKCON and ISKCON
devotees and they have learned that we're no more odd than practitioners of
other faiths and can be successful by their standards too.

In terms of my circle of friends and colleagues, I'm also very open about
being a devotee. I have a huge poster of Lord Jagannatha over my desk,
other pictures in my office too and sometimes I play devotional music on my
computer while reading. Some people ask about this and about ISKCON and I
always answer their questions as honestly as I can. I've been very vocal
about the need to have vegetarian options at all work functions (99% of the
time, people do it naturally here, but on a couple of occasions they've
slipped up and I had to let them know). I've also invited friends and
co-workers to festivals and about 20 people from my job came to my fire
sacrifice wedding and danced, chanted Hare krsna, and threw grains into
the fire.

I've been working at the same place for 13 years now and I don't want to
make it sound like I did all of this from day one. It probably took about
2 years of gradually becoming more open. People's first reactions were
usually: "What, *you're* a Hare Krishna? I thought you were all in the
streets and airports." Then they'd become interested and wanted to know
if there were many of us who had regular jobs and who lived out in society.
In all of these years, I have never had a direct negative reaction from
anyone. In fact,people who know me have been surprisingly supportive at
times. E.g. when I decided to become initiated, I told a few of my closest
co-workers. At first, they were puzzled and asked lots of questions,
especially about "no illicit sex". Once I had explained it and said that
this was something I wanted to do, one very sweet (gay) man asked: "So
would you mind if I threw you a "celibacy party" to celebrate this
important step?"

:-)

How about others out there in cyberspace? Looks like "the fringe" has
become mainstream!

Ys,
Madhusudani dasi

Thank you Madhusudani Radha and Janesvara Prabhu's, for a short moment you
made me feel like I was actually a part of Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON.

I am searching for You between millions of desires
getting lost in a ocean of rules
while I struggle and pray
loosing day after day

You are only a breath away


Your servant Gunamani d.d.