sambya :

I disagree here. In my opinion, Spiritual knowledge and Material Knowledge are the same. ONLY DIFFERENCE here is HOW WE USED THEM.

I believe that a person can still achieve Spiritual development by using Materialistic Knowledge. For example - a Scientists could develop means of growing food, clean the planet (from pollution), eradicate diseases and such (ALL IN NAME OF GOD) using Materialistic Knowledge.

And at the same time, a Swami could fall from grace by denying help to others and seek solely toward Spiritualism alone. He could reject Humanity yet he seeks God. Such person could be useless to God and Man.


What you call as "Modern" Science, I call it as Ignorant Science.
This Science is created in the West with purpose of proving that (Christian) God is false and wrong.

It is scientific fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get all the variables correct. Even the most intelligent group of scientists, working with the most powerful computers, could only get 99% correct accuracy and in most cases, it could be that 1% which determines the result. That 1% is God.

Science have accepted that it has limitations. Therefore, God is acceptable hypothesis within Science.

i respect your freedom of thought .

but the scriptures always differentiate and place the transcendental knowledge at a higher place than this material knowledge . although in its perfectional stage there are no two knowledges . their are different aspects of the truth . but material knwoledge is more concerned with creation while spiritual knowledge is concerned with the creator !

nishkama karma ...good .

correct !

ignorant science it is for sure ! but the second statement is not wholly true . it was not created to deny god but to provide more material comforts . but it actually ended up in denying god ............thats correct .


what about the rest 99% ? should we believe it as true or not ......your answer is not quite definite !

sambya :

To me, whether it is Materialistic Knowledge or Spiritual knowledge - only thing I could think about is HOW TO USE THEM for benefit of Mankind. If you cannot use them for the benefit of Mankind, then those knowledge are USELESS.

Wrong ... Western Science evolved from the needs to debunk Christian god. And that is fact.

Unlike in India, the Europeans have lived for 500 years in (what historians called) Dark Ages. In that period of time, Christianity was practiced and Science is according to the Bible. Which means that anyone who said that the Earth is not the Center of the Universe or the Solar System, or that there are other lifeforms somewhere else and such WILL BE CONSIDERED HERETIC AND PUNISHED BY DEATH.

So, Science grew later with a goal of ensuring that the Dark Ages do not return. Unfortunately for us (in the East), this foolish people considered Asians to be lowered in status and education and attended to "reeducate" Asians so they could be more civilized. And that is how this ignorant Science found it's way to Asia.

I don't know ... what do you think?

99% is useless without the 1% to complete it, and 1% is simply too small to be considered as an important fact. So, what do you believe we should do?

i agree .



christianity and its persecutions played a nice role in starting this dark ages but it was not the only factor . dark ages was also a period of social stagnancy and unproductivity and there were numerous other factors involved in its creation .

science was created not to deny god but to provide an alternative explantion to the world around ..it was a product of rebellious emotions of some people long oppresed under catholic yoke .

and finally when this new science movement gained momentum and found more members it naturally chose to throw away everyting related with the oppressive christianity . it was more of an attack on christianity , a liberation movement from papal power .

later when eastern religions with their broad mind setup reached the west , the contemporary scientists were curious and eager to know more of the subtle indian philosophies !!

hence it would ne incorrect to say that they created science exclusively for denying god . if you disagree prove your point .



i take the word of scriptures ! they are from the mouths of realized souls .. so what they say about god is far more trustworthy and relevent than anything else !!

sambya :

No, Christianity alone was the reason for the Dark Ages to commence and last for 500 YEARS, choking the European communities from advancing. Even today, it is a fear of such "choking effect" still could be found in Europe and America where people there are still very much ignorant toward Science.

Same thing except you use some nice words to say it. Ignorant Science was created in the West in order to rebel against the (Christian) god. That is fact no matter how you say it.

Quit your daydreams. The Westerners are not that open-minded. They are very egoistic and selfish and they will always look down on Indians, Chinese and everything Asian.

Take History for example. Hindu scholars have already discovered that the Sun was the centre of the Solar System and even went to calculate the distant from Earth to the Sun over 1,000 years before Copernicus and what does West teaches to its people there? That Copernicus was the "father" of astronomy.

Chinese people have invented paper and used it for various purposes (including as toilet paper) by the time Marco Polo reached China in 13th Century and who gets the credits for inventing the publications? Gutenberg.

The Westerners are still very much a Christian even so they do not accept Christianity (as they did during the Dark Ages). They still want their religion to be in the center of everything, and their Jesus to be the most important one and that they are the center of the Universe and all others must bow to them. That attitude did not change from the day they sat foot on the sands of Goa, India to the present day.

And THAT is the difference between you and me. I take the 1% to be more important to the 99%.

let it be so if you understand it in that way ..

see this is a complex topic . its true that a significant proportion of western people are not open minded . i was speaking about the more intellectualy oriented westerners .. i think this intorence is characteristics of human race . take india for example . many indians would classify everything that comes from the west as british and vile ! hatred arises from ignorance .....i believe in this !!


thats true

if thats what you believe then you doesnt stand in the position of spiritual aspirant !! if you need scientific prove for legitimising god then your spirituality is weird and shallow !! i sorry but thats truth .........you can get it verified from any guru of any sampradya in india in case you disbelieve me !!

are you a westerner ?

sambya :

It is not what I say or understand. It is FACT. Fact is Fact, sugar-coating it will not make it anymore pleasant to swallow.

Actually it is. Can you give me an example of something which comes from the West which actually good for you?

Hmph ... people who follows the 99% will always look for others to verify what they believe in, because they have no idea what they believe in.

One who believe in the 1% will always know what he believes in is the truth for its simplicity.

I do not see the relationship about my backgrounds and this discussion.

put in a other way my words would translate as - " let it be so for you if you think it is fact ! "

i would say it did more harm than good ! but i cannot believe that there was not a single good . thats because there cannot be anything absolute in this temporal world .. nothing can be absolutely good or absolutely bad ...



the sages of india ( including your buddha ) never relied on science to understand or accept god and neither did they look towards others to verify what they believed !!

one who believe in 1% prefers to remain on the safer side lest his 'fragile' belief called god is torn apart by some attacking scientists !!

no direct relationship but would have helped me to understand your chronic hatred towards everything western and lack of indepth study of hinduism and its scriptures ...!!

BTW , are you a buddhist ......?

sambya :

I really don't give a damn if you are incapable of understanding facts.

Then give me an example of something which actually good came out of the West.

Because they believe in that 1% I have spoke of.

Hmm ... your atheist attitude is showing. Those "attacking" scientists as you called them are people fooled by Ignorant Science which I have spoken of. Why should we be bothered by people who are blinded by ignorance?

I have not come here so I could receive your blessings. If you wish to speak, then speak. Otherwise, leave my sight.

its simple logic that nothing can be absolute in this world . nothing can e absolutely bad or absolutely good ..........you disagree on that ?!!



feel free to stretch you imaginations .......but truth lies elsewhere !

okay...............now show me some examples were ancient indian saints relied on science and believed in that much god as is attested by science ..!


corrrrrrrrrect !! why should be bothered by what analysis and 'proves' such ignorant people have achieved ? why should our understanding(of god) depend on them ?


oh no , i cannot leave .............................................on the other hand as a western individual who hates west and is a buddhist with poor understanding of hindu philosophy and being unable to answer any intelligent question , you can chose to stop posting till you become more knowledgable !!

enjoy.........

sambya :

YES, I will disagree with that as long as you failed to provide a single example of something good which came from the West.

The Truth does not lies "somewhere", it lies WITHIN. Temple of God is within the Human Heart. That is where the 1% lies and that is Where I shall find the Truth.

Because Ignorance cannot be pushed aside. While following Ignorance will lead you astray, turning around and facing them will ensure that the Truth we seek will endure. Science maybe Ignorance, but putting Religious Facts in Scientific matter could ensure that our future generations have a beginning points to start in their ways to understand complex things.

In basic language, Science can be used as a tool to teach youngsters about God in His basic form and understand. As they grow older and more mature, we can introduce them to a more complex ideas of God and allow them to slowly mature along with that knowledge. In that way, Science becomes a Tool to understand God.

There is nothing wrong with my knowledge or understanding. It is your foolish Atheist beliefs and attitude which made you stuck.

immidiately i can think of abolishment of sati which was effected by combined efforts of raja rammohun roy and lord william bentinck .even raja on his part was highly influenced by western ideals which prompted him to study hindu scriptures and fight for this cause ..

there are countless others..........

and now that i have provided with one example you must prove that one wrong before you speak on anything else .....and if you cannot then your theory automatically stands disproved by you own words(I will disagree with that as long as you failed to provide a single example) !!


if you would have said that you want to use science as a tool to promote beliefe in god then it would have been a novel and a nice concept . but you said that you would only accept that much of god as can be verified by sceince .............that is my point of objection ..


of course there is and its obvious that you would not understand it ....no one does (understands his own faults) . for if it was other way round how could you labell someone as athiest for not believing in same ideology .

you are hardly any different from those dumb hare krishnas (not all) .

why do i turn athiest ?

sambya :

Are you STUPID or something?

I asked you about something good which came from the West and all you can come out with is this stupidity about Sattee and how the British (allegedly) abolish it. I said allegedly because the ONLY time I have ever come across this practise was when reading the book - "Around the World in 80 days" which makes me wonder whether the practise was genuine or just to fool Indians like yourself. This is of course with assumption that you are an Indian.

And as far as I considered, this idiocy with the so-called Sattee practise (which is doubtful if it even existed) is NOT PROOF or anything. It merely shows that you are stuck and the West have not brought ANYTHING good to India.

What is the difference between saying Science is a tool to promote the beliefs in God and by saying that Science must verify God? I do not see a difference here.

As a Tool to promote the belief in God, Science must have a certain level of "proof" of God. Therefore, using this proof (of Science), educated people should then accept God through Science.

Thank you. I shall take that as a compliment.

Are you not?

now im starting to have a better picture of you ..................

sati very much existed in india . i know it and i have read a lot about it -accounts of brahmins , contemporary noblemen ,maharajas , european priests , orthodox hindus , leberal reformists all have writen and commented about sati . unlike you i dont speak of things i have no knowledge of . if you doubt i shall provide you with scriptural qoutes . if you doubt further i can easily show you the historical records with date, time, place, year, and names of the victim along with her son's name , husband's name, circumstances of husbands death . but since many of such books are in vernacular languages and probably not on internet i regret that you would not be able to verify it ...

around the world in eighty days gives an highly inaccurate and deformed picture of sati . it was a amalgamation of thugee , human sacrifice and sati and resulted out of racial stereotypes as envisioned by britishers of those times . historical sati was somewhat different but not less fearfull .

im astonished to see your confidence levels with such a chronic lack of knowledge !!

show me how abolishing sati was not a boon from the west .


if you cannot distinguish between "Science is a tool to promote the beliefs in God" and "Science must verify God" , im sorry but i cannot carry on any intelligent discussion with you

good .that gives me a clearer picture !


im a firm believer in god and hinduism !