PrinceGoutham and Bhaktajan, official thread

[Amlesh]

Originally Posted by RadheyRadhey108 No evidence, just emotion.

Take it as you like...

But I'll give you a hint...

I've never searched for any evidence, but it came by itself to me.

I suppose you are unaware of the Bhagvata Doctrine; if you have read then it means you have not understood or misunderstood; all the evidences are there.

It took 7 seven days for Sukadev Goswami to explain that to Maharaj Parikshit and you are asking me that in a Forum.

Good Lord, I know I'm not even worth to touch the dust of the Lotus Feet of Sukadev but you also can't be a better student than Maharaj Parikshit.

If you cannot see the absolute truth, it does not mean that I'm emotional, it means you are ignorant.

[RadheyRadhey108]

Originally Posted by Amlesh Take it as you like... But I'll give you a hint... I've never searched for any evidence, but it came by itself to me. I suppose you are unaware of the Bhagvata Doctrine; if you have read then it means you have not understood or misunderstood; all the evidences are there. It took 7 seven days for Sukadev Goswami to explain that to Maharaj Parikshit and you are asking me that in a Forum. Good Lord, I know I'm not even worth to touch the dust of the Lotus Feet of Sukadev but you also can't be a better student than Maharaj Parikshit. If you cannot see the absolute truth, it does not mean that I'm emotional, it means you are ignorant.

You are still only speaking from emotion. You admit that you have no proof. That means that you are speaking solely from emotion, which proves nothing. Shaivas will emotionally tell you that Shiva is absolute truth. Are they right? Shaktas will emotionally tell you that Shakti is the absolute truth. Are they right? You (a Vaishnava) are emotionally telling me that Lord Rama is the absolute truth without evidence to speak of. Why should I believe you over a Shaiva or Shakta, since you are all speaking solely from emotion and not from evidence?

[Amlesh]

Originally Posted by RadheyRadhey108 You are still only speaking from emotion. You admit that you have no proof. That means that you are speaking solely from emotion, which proves nothing. Shaivas will emotionally tell you that Shiva is absolute truth. Are they right? Shaktas will emotionally tell you that Shakti is the absolute truth. Are they right? You (a Vaishnava) are emotionally telling me that Lord Rama is the absolute truth without evidence to speak of. Why should I believe you over a Shaiva or Shakta, since you are all speaking solely from emotion and not from evidence?

And since when did I ask you to believe me.

I also gave you the answer in my previous post. The answer is found in Srimad Bhagvatam. All the evidences are there.

Again if it took 7 days to teach Bhagvata, that too the best teacher and best student. How can I, a person not having the quality of a teacher teach to the most foolish of student.
Ok, in that case, I've let my emotion flow.

Don't ask for something that is not possible.

[Amlesh]

By the way, don't ask me evidence about your foolishness.

It's too evident.

[Amlesh]

Sorry RadheyRadhey for being stupid and rude.

One of the most important aspect of Vaishavism is to be silent, I feel that it is the most beautiful rule.

Sorry again.

[RadheyRadhey108]

Originally Posted by Amlesh And since when did I ask you to believe me.

You say things without providing evidence. I'm just wondering where you get your ideas from. You haven't told me.

Originally Posted by Amlesh I also gave you the answer in my previous post. The answer is found in Srimad Bhagvatam. All the evidences are there.

Where does it say 'Shiva is a demigod who is less than Vishnu/Rama/Krishna'? What is the exact verse that says that all gods other than Vishnu are demigods?

Originally Posted by Amlesh Again if it took 7 days to teach Bhagvata, that too the best teacher and best student. How can I, a person not having the quality of a teacher teach to the most foolish of student.

You clearly can't teach anything, since you obviously have no evidence to supply.

Originally Posted by Amlesh Ok, in that case, I've let my emotion flow.

Yes, that's because you speak solely from emotion on these issues.

[RadheyRadhey108]

Originally Posted by Amlesh By the way, don't ask me evidence about your foolishness. It's too evident.

You're the one making baseless claims.

[RadheyRadhey108]

Originally Posted by Amlesh Sorry RadheyRadhey for being stupid and rude. One of the most important aspect of Vaishavism is to be silent, I feel that it is the most beautiful rule. Sorry again.

Your snippy comments didn't get to me. I realize that you can speak only from emotion since you have no evidence.

[bhaktajan]

I try to spare you un-pleasant truths so as to let live as blissfully innocents do, but you keep asking for medicine:

SB 1.2.26:
Those who are serious about liberation are certainly nonenvious, and they respect all. Yet they reject the horrible and ghastly forms of the demigods and worship only the all-blissful forms of Lord Viñëu and His plenary portions.

SB 11.2.6:
Those who worship the demigods receive reciprocation from the demigods in a way just corresponding to the offering. The demigods are attendants of karma, like a person’s shadow, but sädhus are actually merciful to the fallen.

SB 3.2.37:
O gentle one, of all the physical elements, beginning from the sky down to the earth, all the inferior and superior qualities are due only to the final touch of the glance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

SB 3.28.22:
The blessed Lord Çiva becomes all the more blessed by bearing on his head the holy waters of the , which has its source in the water that washed the Lord’s lotus feet. The Lord’s feet act like thunderbolts hurled to shatter the mountain of sin stored in the mind of the meditating devotee. One should therefore meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time.
Ganges, which has its source in the water that washed the Lord’s lotus feet. The Lord’s feet act like thunderbolts hurled to shatter the mountain of sin stored in the mind of the meditating devotee. One should therefore meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time.
PURPORT
In this verse the position of Lord Çiva is specifically mentioned. The impersonalist suggests that the Absolute Truth has no form and that one can therefore equally imagine the form of Viñëu or Lord Çiva or the goddess Durgä or their son Gaëeça.

But actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the supreme master of everyone. In the Caitanya-caritämåta (Ädi 5.142) it is said, ekale éçvara kåñëa, ara saba bhåtya: the Supreme Lord is Kåñëa, and everyone else, including Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä—not to mention other demigods—is a servant of Kåñëa.

The same principle is described here. Lord Çiva is important because he is holding on his head the holy Ganges water, which has its origin in the foot-wash of Lord Viñëu. In the Hari-bhakti-viläsa, by Sanätana Gosvämé, it is said that anyone who puts the Supreme Lord and the demigods, including Lord Çiva and Lord Brahmä, on the same level, at once becomes a päñaëòé, or atheist. We should never consider that the Supreme Lord Viñëu and the demigods are on an equal footing.


Another significant point of this verse is that the mind of the conditioned soul, on account of its association with the material energy from time immemorial, contains heaps of dirt in the form of desires to lord it over material nature. This dirt is like a mountain, but a mountain can be shattered when hit by a thunderbolt.

Meditating on the lotus feet of the Lord acts like a thunderbolt on the mountain of dirt in the mind of the yogé. If a yogé wants to shatter the mountain of dirt in his mind, he should concentrate on the lotus feet of the Lord and not imagine something void or impersonal. Because the dirt has accumulated like a solid mountain, one must meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for quite a long time.

For one who is accustomed to thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord constantly, however, it is a different matter. The devotees are so fixed on the lotus feet of the Lord that they do not think of anything else. Those who practice the yoga system must meditate on the lotus feet of the Lord for a long time after following the regulative principles and thereby controlling the senses.

It is specifically mentioned here, bhagavataç caraëäravindam: one has to think of the lotus feet of the Lord. The Mäyävädés imagine that one can think of the lotus feet of Lord Çiva or Lord Brahmä or the goddess Durgä to achieve liberation, but this is not so. Bhagavataù is specifically mentioned.

Bhagavataù means “of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Viñëu,” and no one else. Another significant phrase in this verse is çivaù çivo ’bhüt. By his constitutional position, Lord Çiva is always great and auspicious, but since he has accepted on his head the Ganges water, which emanated from the lotus feet of the Lord, he has become even more auspicious and important. The stress is on the lotus feet of the Lord. A relationship with the lotus feet of the Lord can even enhance the importance of Lord Çiva, what to speak of other, ordinary living entities.


SB 4.19.22 Purport:
. . . Vedic literature states that a person who puts Lord Näräyaëa on the level with Lord Çiva or Lord Brahmä immediately becomes a päkhaëòé. As stated in the Puräëas:

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

samatvenaiva vékñeta

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

In Kali-yuga the päkhaëòés are very prominent. However, Lord Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu has tried to kill all these päkhaëòés by introducing His saìkértana movement. Those who take advantage of this saìkértana movement of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness will be able to save themselves from the influence of these päkhaëòés.


SB 4.19.23 Purport:
. . . In the Vaiñëava Tantra it is said:

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

samatvenaiva vékñeta

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

Although it is forbidden, there are many päñaëòés who coin terms like daridra-näräyaëa and svämi-näräyaëa, although not even such demigods as Brahmä and Çiva can be equal to Näräyaëa.

SB 4.30.24 Purport:
. . . One should therefore not think that Lord Viñëu is in the same category with Lord Brahmä and Çiva. The çästras forbid us to think in this way.

yas tu näräyaëaà devaà

brahma-rudrädi-daivataiù

samatvenaiva vékñeta

sa päñaëòé bhaved dhruvam

One who considers Lord Viñëu to be in the same category with devas like Lord Brahmä or Lord Çiva or who thinks Lord Brahmä and Çiva to be equal to Lord Viñëu is to be considered as päñaëòé (a faithless nonbeliever). Therefore in this verse Lord Viñëu is distinguished in the words namo viçuddha-sattväya. Although a living entity like us, Lord Brahmä is exalted due to his pious activities; therefore he is given the high post of Brahmä. Lord Çiva is not actually like a living entity, but he is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His position is somewhere between Viñëu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and Brahmä, the living entity. Lord Çiva is therefore explained in Brahma-saàhitä (5.45) in this way:

kñéraà yathä dadhi vikära-viçeña-yogät

saïjäyate na hi tataù påthag asti hetoù

yaù çambhutäm api tathä samupaiti käryäd

govindam ädi-puruñaà tam ahaà bhajämi

Lord Çiva is considered to be like yogurt (dadhi). Yogurt is nothing but transformed milk; nonetheless, yogurt cannot be accepted as milk. Similarly, Lord Çiva holds almost all the powers of Lord Viñëu, and he is also above the qualities of the living entity, but he is not exactly like Viñëu, just as yogurt, although transformed milk, is not exactly like milk.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead is also described herein as väsudeväya kåñëäya. Kåñëa is the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all Viñëu expansions are His plenary portions or portions of His plenary portions (known as sväàça and kalä).


SB 11.5.32

kåñëa-varëaà tviñäkåñëaà

säìgopäìgästra-pärñadam

yajïaiù saìkértana-präyair

yajanti hi su-medhasaù

SYNONYMS

kåñëa-varëam—repeating the syllables kåñ-ëa; tviñä—with a luster; akåñëam—not black (golden); sa-aìga—along with associates; upa-aìga—servitors; astra—weapons; pärñadam—confidential companions; yajïaiù—by sacrifice; saìkértana-präyaiù—consisting chiefly of congregational chanting; yajanti—they worship; hi—certainly; su-medhasaù—intelligent persons.

TRANSLATION

In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the names of Kåñëa. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Kåñëa Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions.

[RadheyRadhey108]

Once again, none of the verses say "Lord Shiva is a demigod".

[indulekhadasi]

Lord Nityananda thinks all of us are foolish for debating who is higher- Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu.
He will smile and leave us to continue our petty debating. We don't care, we will simply continue the debate and leave Lord Nityananda to give His mercy to someone else.
Wake up people.
I am shocked to see people such as Radhey Radhey and Bhaktajan, people who was held in such high positions by me using harsh language and no sastric evidences. Your debate simply seems like the dry debate you can go watch at Shiva kanchi and Vishnu kanchi. Luckily it seems I didn't even need to go all the way to Shiva kanchi/Vishnu kanchi to see the dry debate! I can get it right here on Audarya.
Thank you very much for the dry input. It is very much enlightening me on the path of spiritual bliss.

[suchandra]

Originally Posted by indulekhadasi Lord Nityananda thinks all of us are foolish for debating who is higher- Lord Shiva or Lord Vishnu. He will smile and leave us to continue our petty debating. We don't care, we will simply continue the debate and leave Lord Nityananda to give His mercy to someone else. Wake up people. I am shocked to see people such as Radhey Radhey and Bhaktajan, people who was held in such high positions by me using harsh language and no sastric evidences. Your debate simply seems like the dry debate you can go watch at Shiva kanchi and Vishnu kanchi. Luckily it seems I didn't even need to go all the way to Shiva kanchi/Vishnu kanchi to see the dry debate! I can get it right here on Audarya. Thank you very much for the dry input. It is very much enlightening me on the path of spiritual bliss.

Well spoken Indulekhadasi, what comes to mind is sometimes things cannot be solved by arguments. But as soon one hears about the highest nectar within this universe and this message actually enters our minds, suddenly we become balanced, equalized and fully situated above the dualities.
This happens not by argument and logic but simply by hearing for example the nectar of Lord Nityananda Prabhu's dancing.

The dancing of Lord Nityananda Prabhu
posted 1496 by Srila Krishna Dasa Kaviraja Goswami

Nityananda Prabhu rested for the day, and when the day ended He went to the temple of Raghava Paṇḍita and began congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord.
Lord Nityananda Prabhu first influenced all the devotees to dance, and finally He Himself began dancing, thus inundating the entire world in ecstatic love.
Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu was observing the dancing of Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Nityananda Prabhu could see this, but the others could not.
The dancing of Lord Nityananda Prabhu, like the dancing of Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu, cannot be compared to anything within these three worlds.
No one can properly describe the sweetness of Lord Nityananda's dancing. Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally comes to see it.
After the dancing and after Lord Nityananda had rested, Raghava Paṇḍita submitted his request that the Lord take supper.
Lord Nityananda Prabhu sat down for supper with His personal associates and made a sitting place on His right side for Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu came there and sat down at His place. Seeing this, Raghava Paṇḍita felt increasing happiness.
Raghava Paṇḍita brought the prasādam before the two brothers and thereafter distributed prasadam to all the other Vaiṣṇavas.
There were varieties of cakes, sweet rice and fine cooked rice that surpassed the taste of nectar. There were also varieties of vegetables.
The food prepared and offered to the Deity by Raghava Paṇḍita was like the essence of nectar. Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu came there again and again to eat such prasādam.
When Raghava Paṇḍita offered the food to the Deity after cooking, he would make a separate offering for Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Every day, Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu would eat at the house of Rāghava Paṇḍita. Sometimes He would give Raghava Paṇḍita the opportunity to see Him.



Raghava Paṇḍita would bring and distribute prasadam to the two brothers, feeding Them with great attention. They ate everything, and therefore there were no remnants left.
He brought so many presentations that no one could know them perfectly. Indeed, it was a fact that the supreme mother, Radharaṇi, personally cooked in the house of Raghava Paṇḍita.
Srimati Radharaṇi received from Durvasa Muni the benediction that whatever She cooked would be sweeter than nectar. That is the special feature of Her cooking.
Aromatic and pleasing to see, the food was the essence of all sweetness. Thus the two brothers, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda Prabhu, ate it with great satisfaction.
All the devotees present requested Raghunatha dasa to sit down and take prasadam, but Raghava Paṇḍita told them, "He will take prasadam later."
All the devotees took prasadam, filling themselves to the brim. Thereafter, chanting the holy name of Hari, they stood up and washed their hands and mouths.
After eating, the two brothers washed Their hands and mouths. Then Raghava Paṇḍita brought flower garlands and sandalwood pulp and decorated Them.
Raghava Paṇḍita offered Them betel nuts and worshiped Their lotus feet. He also distributed betel nuts, flower garlands and sandalwood pulp to the devotees.
Raghava Paṇḍita, being very merciful toward Raghunatha dasa, offered him the dishes with the remnants of food left by the two brothers.
He said, "Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu has eaten this food. If you take His remnants, you will be released from the bondage of your family."
The Supreme Personality of Godhead always resides either in the heart or in the home of a devotee. This fact is sometimes hidden and sometimes manifest, for the Supreme Personality of Godhead is fully independent.
The Supreme Personality of Godhead is all-pervasive, and therefore He resides everywhere. Anyone who doubts this will be annihilated.
In the morning, after taking His bath in the Ganges, Nityananda Prabhu sat down with His associates beneath the same tree under which He had previously sat.
Raghunatha dasa went there and worshiped Lord Nityānanda's lotus feet. Through Raghava Paṇḍita, he submitted his desire.
"I am the lowest of men, the most sinful, fallen and condemned. Nevertheless, I desire to attain shelter at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
"Like a dwarf who wants to catch the moon, I have tried my best many times, but I have never been successful.
"Every time I tried to go away and give up my home relationships, my father and mother unfortunately kept me bound.
"No one can attain the shelter of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without Your mercy, but if You are merciful, even the lowest of men can attain shelter at His lotus feet.
"Although I am unfit and greatly afraid to submit this plea, I nevertheless request You, Sir, to be especially merciful toward me by granting me shelter at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
"Placing Your feet on my head, give me the benediction that I may achieve the shelter of Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu without difficulty. I pray for this benediction."
After hearing this appeal by Raghunatha dasa, Lord Nityananda Prabhu smiled and told all the devotees, "Raghunatha dasa's standard of material happiness is equal to that of Indra, the King of heaven.
"Because of the mercy bestowed upon him by Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Raghunatha dasa, although situated in such material happiness, does not like it at all. Therefore let every one of you be merciful toward him and give him the benediction that he may very soon attain shelter at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
"One who experiences the fragrance of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa does not value even the standard of happiness available in Brahmaloka, the topmost planet. And what to speak of heavenly happiness?
"'Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is offered sublime, poetic prayers by those trying to attain His favor. Thus He is known as Uttamasloka. Being very eager to gain the association of Lord Kṛṣṇa, King Bharata, although in the prime of youth, gave up his very attractive wife, affectionate children, most beloved friends and opulent kingdom, exactly as one gives up stool after excreting it.'"
Then Lord Nityananda Prabhu called Raghunatha dāsa near Him, placed His lotus feet upon Raghunatha dasa's head and began to speak.
"My dear Raghunatha dasa," He said, "since you arranged the feast on the bank of the Ganges, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu came here just to show you His mercy.
"By His causeless mercy He ate the chipped rice and milk. Then, after seeing the dancing of the devotees at night, He took His supper.
"Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Gaurahari, came here personally to deliver you. Now rest assured that all the impediments meant for your bondage are gone.
"Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu will accept you and place you under the charge of His secretary, Svarupa Damodara. You will thus become one of the most confidential internal servants and will attain shelter at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
"Being assured of all this, return to your own home. Very soon, without impediments, you will attain shelter at the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahaprabhu."
Lord Nityananda had Raghunatha dasa blessed by all the devotees, and Raghunatha dasa offered his respects to their lotus feet.
After taking leave of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and then all the other Vaiṣṇavas, Śrī Raghunatha dasa consulted secretly with Raghava Paṇḍita.
CC Antya 6/101-129