Many schools of worship that have defected from the original Swaminarayan Sampraday (original sampraday = currently headed by the lineage of spiritual Acharyas descending from Ayodhyaprasadji Maharaj and Raghuvirji Maharaj) believe that saints should be and have them as their Acharyas. Well this is not true nor right for a few reasons:<o:p></o:p>
1) Firstly, it is Lord Swaminarayan's instructions and orders in the 'Desh Vibhagh no Lekh' and noted in all other main Swaminarayan Sampraday scriptures that the Acharya of the Swaminarayan Sampraday be appointed only from His father's family i.e. 'Dharmakul'. So really this on its own should be enough for the Swaminarayan devotees! <o:p></o:p>
2) But since we have a tendency not to accept things to suit our needs, there is a very obvious and logical reason as to why Lord Swaminarayan appointed householder Acharyas AND WHY SPECIFICALLY FROM HIS FAMILY:<o:p></o:p>
a) The idea of appointing householder Acharyas is not a concept brought about just a few hundreds of years ago. It is a concept well authenticated in scriptures such as Yagnavalkya Smriti written thousands and thousands of years ago. Anyway, when Ramanand Swami met Dharmadev and Bhaktimata (parents of Lord Swaminarayan), Ramanand Swami asked Dharmadev and Bhaktimata to pass the initiation 'mantra' to all the devotees earnest for their libeeration, i.e. Dharmadev to the males and Bhaktimata to the females. Very obviously, Ramanand Swami was a saint and so giving the initiation mantra to ladies would be to break the rules of being a saint. And so the mantra which was given to Bhaktimata through Dharmadev was then passed on to lady devotees. This was before Lord Swaminarayan was born and before the Acharyaship was established.<o:p></o:p>
b) When an initiation mantra is given to a devotee or a saint, then only does he/she qualify to be a Swaminarayan devotee and his or her bhakti becomes authenticated to earn liberation. In other words IT IS very important that we get this mantra. Well obviously lady devotees would also like to go to Akshardham and serve Lord Swaminarayan, right??? Let's hope so. Well ok, so who is going to give them the mantra if a saint is to be the Acharya?? ...because a Swaminarayan saint is not supposed to communicate or even look at female devotees. It is for this very reason that Lord Swaminarayan appointed the Acharyas' wives as the gurus of the female devotees and made them responsible to pass on the mantra to the female devotees.<o:p></o:p>
c) A logical and scientific reason given in the scriptures - When the Acharya gives the initiation mantra to a devotee, the devotee is given a new birth by the Guru. And we all know birth can only be brought about from the union of a male and a female. In our case this refers to the Acharya and His wife, refered to as the 'Gadhiwala'. Also by the way, when initiation is given all the sins of the devotee are taken away by the Acharya or the Gadhiwala. There is a ritual for the latter whereby a Yagna is held and a coconut is offered to Agni dev. And scriptures very clearly state that this can only be done by a couple or else the sacrifice is not accepted by Agni Dev and thus one of the main reasons as to why saints cannot be Acharyas.<o:p></o:p>
d) WE MUST REALIZE THAT THESE HOUSEHOLDER ACHARYAS ARE NOT JUST ORDINARY HOUSEHOLDERS - THEY WERE APPOINTED AS ACHARYAS BY LORD SWAMINARAYAN FROM HIS OWN FATHER'S FAMILY (LORD'S NEPHEWS ) AND HE ADOPTED THEM AND THEIR LINEAGE (ACHARYAS' LINEAGE) AS HIS OWN SONS. SO THE LINEAGE OF ACHARYAS THAT MANY PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE AND DISRESPECT ARE THE GOD PERSONIFIED , SONS OF LORD SWAMINARAYAN, SEATED ON THE THRONE BY LORD SWAMINARAYAN HIMSELF AND THEIR CONTINUING LINEAGE IS ALSO TAKEN CARE BY LORD SWAMINARAYAN TO PROTECT HIS SAMPRADAY! So make no mistake, the argument is not about ORDINARY householders becoming Acharyas of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. The Dharmakul Acharyas are divine souls very close to Lord Swaminarayan and that is why their respect is commanded by ALL the devotees/saints of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. Accordingly Acharyas are very respectful and kind to their devotees and saints because of their divine nature and instructions by Lord Swaminarayan.<o:p></o:p>
e) Lord Swaminarayan has instructed His followers in the Shikshapatri to worship only those images of God that have been installed by the Acharyas from the family of His father (Dharmakul Acharyas). So specifically the biggest task of inviting God in to the idols is reserved for the household Acharyas and their lineage appointed by Lord Swaminarayan<o:p></o:p>
f) Lord Swaminarayan as per His instructions in the Shikshapatri prohibits saints from indulging in worldly affairs such as management of the entire Sampraday and also coming into contact with women. For this reason the HouseHolder Acharyas are best suited because they are able to engage in management affairs and their respective wives, whom Lord Swaminarayan appointed as the Gurus/Spiritual leaders for the women, can deal with the spiritual matters for women such as initiation and guidance. If Renounced Saints are appointed as Acharyas , who gives the initiation to the women??? What happens to their salvation? And no ordinary man or woman can give such initiations, only the Acharyas and their respective wives can, as per Lord Swaminarayan's instructions in the Shikshapatri, Desh Vibhag no lekh and Satsangi Jeevan <o:p></o:p>
g) Lord Swaminarayan wouldn't write rules of conduct in the Shikshapatri for the Acharyas and also specifically for their respective wives, the GadhiWala, if He didn't think they had the most important place in the Sampraday as the spiritual leaders of the devotees, including saints!; to give initiation to devotees plus saints and for the Acharyas especially to install idols in the temples (the only idols which Swaminarayan devotees are supposed to worship- ref: Shikshapatri)<o:p></o:p>
The initiation mantra can not be passed to masses of people made up of males and females. It has to be secretly given in the ear of the devotee. Only the Acharyas' wives can do this to the females. Saints would not be able to do this because of the rules that bind them in the Shikshapatri laid down by Lord Swaminarayan Himself. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

I would like to clear first that I was follower of BAPS since child hood, and now (at the age of 25th year) I have joined Original Sampraday by asking some questions to 1st line saints of BAPS. Please make a note that these all questions were unanswered by leading saints of BAPS. I have tried to ask these questiones to leading followers of BAPS, but as and when I asked questions they got provoked and could not answer.

I want to ask these all question to all BAPS followers, 1. Do you do whatever Pramukh swami maharaj say?

2. If yes, Pramukh swami maharaj has told in "Pramukhswami ni amrut vani" that, every satsangi should read books published by the seal of Acharya maharaj.

3. So did you try to read these books?

4. Did you read Shikshapatri? (Full version, not only Sukti ratna). which is stating that Murties which are established by Acharya should only be worshipped, other murties should not be worshipped but may be paid respect.

5. So please decide which murty are you worshipping? Established by Lord Swaminarayan Himself or by Gurus of BAPS.

6. In shikshapatri shlok Shree Hari has written that "Dharmado" should be given to the temples which I have built ("AAne me je sthapela Lakshminarayan aadik dev mandir..."). So please ask your self that are you giving dharmada to these Hari sthapit temples?

7. In shikshapatri , shree Hari has written that All sadhues MUST take Diksha from Acharya. So the other sadhus including your all Gurues (except Shashtriji Maharaj who was made "VIMUKH" from Vadtal temple) are not at all swaminarayan saints.

8. I think all satsangies Must read Desh Vibhag lekh, which is written by Shree Hari in the presence of all leading satsangies, and sadhus at that time. In this bhagwan has told that "Je koi mara sthapela dharma thi aalag aashram sthapshe te Guru Drohi chhe, vachan drohi chhe, ane te Jarur aa lok ne vishe ane parlok ne vishe mota kashta ne pamshe".

5. Did you read Bhaktachintamani? In which many a time Lord has said that all must follow Acharya's Agya.

6. Do you know that when any new saint is taking diksha in BAPS, then he is driven to Nar Narayan dev temple first.

7. Do you know that when ever Pramukh swami maharaj is coming to Gadhada, he visits Gopinathji Maharaj Temple to worship without fail. So please, if you want to go Akhardham then you all should read Shikshapatri, Vachanamrit (read whole, not some paragraphs which is instructed by BAPS temple), Bhaktachintamani, Satsangi Jivan (some days before in Dadar BAPS satsang sabha, mahant swami of dadar has also told to read satsangi Jivan) and Understand that without any bias. You will realise that through original sampraday only, one can get Akhardham.

8. At last but not least , the last shlok of shikshapatri -"Je aa shikhapatri pramane vartshe tene Dharma, Arth, Kam, ane Moksha (Akhardham) malshe, and je nahi varte te to AMARA DHARMA THI BAHER CHHE tem janvu."

Now its upto you whether you want to follow word of Lord Swaminarayan, or words of Gurus (who are miss leading to all)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

I have answered all your post. Reverse back the thread and you will see for yourself. Secondly why is it that now it is you who does not answer my posts with references from the scriptures?

Jai Swaminarayan.

1. do you follow the Shikshpatri and live by the acharyas Agnaa?
If yes then you wouldn't be arguing the way you are!
Yes i havn't read all the books - but i am reading them one at a time.
2. you have abviously read the shikshapatri - as we all should have - there is a verse that also says "ï have thus narrated succinctly the duties - Dharma of differrent classes.... however for further elaboration of thier duties they should refer to the various scriptures of our sampraday

3. In the shikshapatri - Maharaj has potrayed himself as a Bhakt of Shri Krishna Bhagwaan - but that was due to the peoples belief - i say this because in vadhvaan - Muktanand Swami and Nityanand Swami had a debate on what we should understand Maharaj to be - and Muktanand Swami took the stand point - that Maharaj is Shri Krishna Bhagwaan Himself - and Nityanand Swami said that Maharaj was the Supreme of all supreme Purna Purshottam Narayan - whose Darshan even Shri Krishna has never had. the debate went on and they never found a solution so they went to Maharaj Himself - And at that time Maharaj explained that - Nityanand Swami's understanding was correct . Muktanand Swami then counter questioned Maharaj - that Nowhere it is written in the Scriptures that You Swaminarayan are the one and only Purna Purshottam Narayan- Maharaj explained well if you feel that I am lying then You can Intepret the Scriptures the way you feel is right (Ghanshyam leela - Published by the Vadtal mandir). This same point Maharaj has talked about in the Vachanamrut Jetalpur 5 - which Vadtal mandir scrapped out of the original Vachanamrut- in that Maharaj has also said that only If you know Me as Purna Purshottam Narayan will You get a place in Akshardham - if you believe Me to be Krishna you will attain Golok Dham not Akshardham - THIS IS NO. 1 SWAROOP NISHTHAA THAT YOU NEED IN ORDER TO ATTAIN AKSHARDHAM

my point is that somtimes what is written is not always supposed to be taken literally, amuk vachan nimith arthe hoy ane amuk udhaaran rupe hoy.
5. Yagna purushdas swami was told by Pragji bhakta that Gunatitanand Swami was Mul Akshar. Yagna Purushdas Swami said He had never heard of this from his own head Vignanand Swami( who is a nand swami) - so pragji bhakta and Yagna purushdas got this info proved by Vignanand Swami - in that he said that he himself has heard Maharaj say that - He is the all Supreme Godhead and Gunatitanand Swami is His Divine abode Akshardhaam. - Think about this - Yagna purushdasji - Shastriji Maharaj was a shastri - meaning educated in the subject of the vedas to the highest level. He did not make such a huge deal and go through so much trouble to have AksharPurshottam murtis in the middle khand for no reason. He was intelligent and he knew what the truth was - and He got it proved from the Nand Swamis who knew about the facts the way the were. And some of the Nand Swamis didn't know - as you can see above - even Muktanand Swami didnt know until Maharaj told him. So you shouldn't go on primarily what was written because all that was though of and all that was known wasn't all written - although We BAPS also have written proof!... and by the way ( in ref to ure other post) RIGHT BEFORE Maharaj was about to got to Akshardham HE DID TALK TO GUNATITANAND SWAMI!

4. Not all Acharyas dropped from heaven - Maharaj has explained various times in the Vachanamrut that "Sacha Sant no Sang kare (meaning if you do what a true sant tell you to do - IN THAT THE TRUE SANT AUTOMATICALLY COMES TO BE SEEN AS A GURU) toj tran goon ane trivid tap thi par thai Akshardham pamay" What is Sacha Sant - One who by Word thought and deed Lives by Maharaj's Word and Mainly lives by Maharajs Annuvrutti- regardless of wether he or she is celabate or not.
My question to you is - Can you vouch with your life that all the Acharyas fit the above description? - Don't worry- I already know the answer. History is my witness - NOT ALL ACHARYAS WERE FIT TO BE GURUS. And i'll tell ya - i can vouch with my life that my Guru Param Pujya Pramukh Swami Maharaj is THE TRUE SANT THAT MAHARAJ TALKS ABOUT - AND THEREFORE HE IS THE TRUE GURU. for you to Understand that you have to meet him in person. thats all it takes!

5. Don't be giving us lectures about wether we read the Bhaktchintamani or not - because vadtal Santos may have read all the Sacred scriptures but they nothing to show for it - WHY ? cos they're the ones caught in sex scandals and they're the ones who talk to women eat tobbacco in public ( i have seen it with my own eyes - and to be honest i was shocked cos i had never been exposed to such a thing before.) I agree being Adarsh Satsangis we should read all our scriptures and we will!!!- but the Vadtal Santos need to work on their basics which we have passed long time now - even though we are younger than those so called vadtal santos.

and next time I am going to read up and give you more proof that Gunatitanand Swami is Mul Akshar - you better prepare on your side as well.

daas ka dass i don't believe when you say that you have asked these questions to the firstline Santos of BAPS and they refused to answer - these same questions they have asked in our sabhas and answered them- themselves - so they know the answers and have given them aswell- i just don't remember very much, but this is my drawback and i apologise.

You have not clearly not answered these questions as clearly as you should with scriptural references. Please try again. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
1) I follow the Sikshapatri thoroughly yes, and my Acharyas word is within the Sikshapatri. It does not go beyond it. We follow every Shloka. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
2) Yes you are right. Then why is it that you do not follow the different scriptures of the Sampraday? For example the Nishkulanand Kavya, Haricharitramrut sagar, Satsangi Jivan etc. which is considered as the Dharm Shastra of the Sampraday. All clearly state the true Upasna and also state that a nand Saint should not be worshipped in par with God or even placed in the Alter. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
3) When Maharaj talks Himself as the Bhakt this is called Parokshavan. He has done so for the purpose as this is the Reet of Sanskruti. Please do read the Sikshapatri Bhashya by Shatanand swami. After reading this you will learn about the Sikshapatri. You are right about the debate. Both Nand santos knew of the greatness of Maharaj. But Shriji Maharaj let such a debate occur so Bhakts of the future would relaise of His greatness. But you are wrong in the original context of the leela. As its nowhere stated that Shri Krishna does not even have the darshan of Shriji Maharaj. Krishna is Pari Purna Avtaar of Shri Swaminarayan Bhagwan. So its wring to state such. This is not even stated in such context within both the Gopalanand swami’s vato nor Gunatitanand Swamis vato. I agree with which Murti of Bhagwan you attain depending on what nistha you have however Vadtal Mandir has not deleted this Vachnamrut at all. As all 273 Vachnamrut are within the Aksharbhuvan with the handwritings of all 5 nand Santos who had it written. HAHA. So how can you state that it was scrapped? What proof do you have when the originals are there? You should be careful what you state. Also if you were right then why does the Amdavad diocese also have this very same Jetalpur Vachnamrut as the same as Vadtal? LOL. Also the hand written copy which will be placed in the newSwaminarayan Museum. I tell yo uwhat when this museum of Amdavad opens do have a look. You will see for yourself. If you cant wait till then, go to the Aksharbhuvan of Vadtal Mandir to see for yourself.

<o:p></o:p>
4) Gopalanand swami clearly states where these Acharyas are from. They are either evtas or Akshar mukts. The Purshottam Prakash also clearly states this. Maybe its time you had a read of the shastras as they are. You talk of living in the anuvrutti of Shriji maharajs anuvrutti. I follow such saints. These saints have the capabilities of performing many miracles but yet they refrain from materialistic ways. I follow such saints. Your pramukh swami has to bowed down to these saints. I have photographs of when he came down to bhuj to do this. He knows their greatness but you do not accept such great saints. You think they are following what they do wrongly? Saints such as swami Shriharidasji and the likes? It is these saints who are living as Shriji Maharaj. Just like the Nand Santos lived. Im not taking avgun of pramukh swmai but you think that we are following wrong saints or something because you clearly haven’t seen such great saints by the looks of it. Or if you have you feel that these saints do not live in the anuvrutti of Shriji Maharaj? They do not care for sitting on golden thrones. They would shun such materialistic objects even if it were given by a bhakt. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Acharyas positions are which that gives moksh if Bhakts just serve it. You need to definitely read the Purshottam Prakash before you type such. Also read Gunatitanand Swamis vato as he clearly states that Acharyas should be bowed and respected and lived under the refuge of. I can vouch with my life that if the Acharyas personality is not saintly his position alone gives moksh.. read the Nishkulanand Kavya. It clearly states in here. That Shriji Maharaj decided the four ways He would give moksh to souls all the way in Akshardham before He came upon the earth. Are you stating that Nishkulanand Swami is wrong? By the way I can also vouch with my life and everything that I owe that I follow the saints that Shriji maharaj describeds in Gadhada I 27, and I follow such a guru these sadhus live in Bhuj. The Acharya is the Dharm guru. I have met Pramukh Swami 3 times. He is surely a good person but I do not agree that he follows the anuvrutti of Bhagwan.

<o:p></o:p>
5. You talk of the minority of Vadtal sadhus. If they have not read the shastras then they are at fault. By the way these so called sadhus of Vadtal do not exist within the sect. They are in jail and some of them have run away. To tarnish the whole diocese like you do… is this not avgun? And you ask me not to take avgun? HAHA you follow what you wish to and discard what you feel. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Have all prepared? Sure fire away with Scriptural references only. Note that I have already answered what your BAPS members had thought were scriptural reverences above. So don’t repeat them. As I cannot be answering over and over again. As I cleared up their misunderstandings. Come out with something new will you? I have answered with proof <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
All is prepared. Shriji Maharaj and His nand santos have had everything prepared for us. Truth is you still have not answered to my posts above. What of this? What do you feel about these proofs from scriptures? You will probably come out with something like “we shouldn’t take this literally”. HAHA. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Here are links of Pramukh Swami meeting true gurus and Nand santo like saints: <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
http://www.swaminarayan.org/vicharan/2002/10/01/bhuj5.htm<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Jai Swaminarayan..

You have not clearly not answered these questions as clearly as you should with scriptural references. Please try again. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
1) I follow the Sikshapatri thoroughly yes, and my Acharyas word is within the Sikshapatri. It does not go beyond it. We follow every Shloka. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
2) Yes you are right. Then why is it that you do not follow the different scriptures of the Sampraday? For example the Nishkulanand Kavya, Haricharitramrut sagar, Satsangi Jivan etc. which is considered as the Dharm Shastra of the Sampraday. All clearly state the true Upasna and also state that a nand Saint should not be worshipped in par with God or even placed in the Alter. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
3) When Maharaj talks Himself as the Bhakt this is called Parokshavan. He has done so for the purpose as this is the Reet of Sanskruti. Please do read the Sikshapatri Bhashya by Shatanand swami. After reading this you will learn about the Sikshapatri. You are right about the debate. Both Nand santos knew of the greatness of Maharaj. But Shriji Maharaj let such a debate occur so Bhakts of the future would relaise of His greatness. But you are wrong in the original context of the leela. As its nowhere stated that Shri Krishna does not even have the darshan of Shriji Maharaj. Krishna is Pari Purna Avtaar of Shri Swaminarayan Bhagwan. So its wring to state such. This is not even stated in such context within both the Gopalanand swami’s vato nor Gunatitanand Swamis vato. I agree with which Murti of Bhagwan you attain depending on what nistha you have however Vadtal Mandir has not deleted this Vachnamrut at all. As all 273 Vachnamrut are within the Aksharbhuvan with the handwritings of all 5 nand Santos who had it written. HAHA. So how can you state that it was scrapped? What proof do you have when the originals are there? You should be careful what you state. Also if you were right then why does the Amdavad diocese also have this very same Jetalpur Vachnamrut as the same as Vadtal? LOL. Also the hand written copy which will be placed in the newSwaminarayan Museum. I tell yo uwhat when this museum of Amdavad opens do have a look. You will see for yourself. If you cant wait till then, go to the Aksharbhuvan of Vadtal Mandir to see for yourself.

<o:p></o:p>
4) Gopalanand swami clearly states where these Acharyas are from. They are either evtas or Akshar mukts. The Purshottam Prakash also clearly states this. Maybe its time you had a read of the shastras as they are. You talk of living in the anuvrutti of Shriji maharajs anuvrutti. I follow such saints. These saints have the capabilities of performing many miracles but yet they refrain from materialistic ways. I follow such saints. Your pramukh swami has to bowed down to these saints. I have photographs of when he came down to bhuj to do this. He knows their greatness but you do not accept such great saints. You think they are following what they do wrongly? Saints such as swami Shriharidasji and the likes? It is these saints who are living as Shriji Maharaj. Just like the Nand Santos lived. Im not taking avgun of pramukh swmai but you think that we are following wrong saints or something because you clearly haven’t seen such great saints by the looks of it. Or if you have you feel that these saints do not live in the anuvrutti of Shriji Maharaj? They do not care for sitting on golden thrones. They would shun such materialistic objects even if it were given by a bhakt. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Acharyas positions are which that gives moksh if Bhakts just serve it. You need to definitely read the Purshottam Prakash before you type such. Also read Gunatitanand Swamis vato as he clearly states that Acharyas should be bowed and respected and lived under the refuge of. I can vouch with my life that if the Acharyas personality is not saintly his position alone gives moksh.. read the Nishkulanand Kavya. It clearly states in here. That Shriji Maharaj decided the four ways He would give moksh to souls all the way in Akshardham before He came upon the earth. Are you stating that Nishkulanand Swami is wrong? By the way I can also vouch with my life and everything that I owe that I follow the saints that Shriji maharaj describeds in Gadhada I 27, and I follow such a guru these sadhus live in Bhuj. The Acharya is the Dharm guru. I have met Pramukh Swami 3 times. He is surely a good person but I do not agree that he follows the anuvrutti of Bhagwan.

<o:p></o:p>
5. You talk of the minority of Vadtal sadhus. If they have not read the shastras then they are at fault. By the way these so called sadhus of Vadtal do not exist within the sect. They are in jail and some of them have run away. To tarnish the whole diocese like you do… is this not avgun? And you ask me not to take avgun? HAHA you follow what you wish to and discard what you feel. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Have all prepared? Sure fire away with Scriptural references only. Note that I have already answered what your BAPS members had thought were scriptural reverences above. So don’t repeat them. As I cannot be answering over and over again. As I cleared up their misunderstandings. Come out with something new will you? I have answered with proof <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
All is prepared. Shriji Maharaj and His nand santos have had everything prepared for us. Truth is you still have not answered to my posts above. What of this? What do you feel about these proofs from scriptures? You will probably come out with something like “we shouldn’t take this literally”. HAHA. <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Here are links of Pramukh Swami meeting true gurus and Nand santo like saints: <o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
www.swaminarayan.org/vicharan/2002/10/01/bhuj5.htm<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Jai Swaminarayan.

Pramukh Swami understands everything. He knows whats right. But i feel he thinks its best if he carries on.

God bless Him loads however. I bear him and those who do not criticise the Original diocese no ill will at all.

i didn't say that you are not under the guidance of good santos - you're the one who said BAPS is wrong and Pramukh Swami does not live according to Maharaj's annuvruti.... where as he is! may be u should read all the 5 parts of jeva me nirkhya - and then you would know.I know because ive lived under his guidance for all my life!- which is a loooong time. And i did not compare the Vadtal Sadhus to Pramukh Swami maharaj ( b/c there is no grounds for that). If Mahraj was not present in Pramukh Swami Maharaj then Our Santos would be like vadtal Santos. Why? - weren't they under the guidance of the Acharya? - why did it take 8 yrs for them to be kicked out of your sampraday where as it didnt take you sooo long to excommunicate such a pious Sant like Shastriji Maharaj- and they ex communicated Him not b/c he was a vyabhichari or a Vyasani- but just b/c the truth that he was preaching wouldn't be digested by the rest. Our guru is Brahmaswaroop! - it does not matter to him wether you put him on a thrown or leave him in an old hut. - and you are right that the acharyas get moksh - but only if they live in accordance to their niyams - there have been acharyas in the past who havn't lived upto their niyams - following niyams does not just apply to the regular devotees or celebates alone- IT APPLY'S TO EVERYONE! and by the way AKSHAR MUKTS ARE FLAWLESS - THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY-FLAWS- THEY ARE AS GOOD AS THE SANT THAT MAHARAJ TALKS OF IN THE VACHANAMRUT (BRAHMA ROOP) ! so u tell me - what if there is an acharya who does not follow niyams who is clearly not brahmaroop ( which there have been in the past) - can he be called a dharmaguru? - how can an un-enlightened person liberate his followers? its like 1000 yrs ago - brahmins said they were brahmins and so they would be liberated b/c they were born into the family - regardless of wether they had worked to attain the qualities needed or not. i do not have any disrespect for the Acharyas - b/c our religion forbids us to. But logically if you think Maharaj left it in the Hands of a true Sant to liberate us.

hi ... i didn't go thru the whole thread before .... but it seems like nav already answered your questions i don't understand y ure still arguing on this matter.... and if you want it clearly written - there were scriptures that had that proof but the your sampraday either re-editted those scriptures or burned or drowned them and some of them are still in the old mandirs but are not getting published - for ex: Harililamrut had 16 parts - but now there are only 12 parts. if you think im lying - investigate. we have nothing to hide but apparently your sampraday has alot to hide. thats how they abide by Maharaj's annuvrutti. burn the proof and then ask for it after. there are just 225 scriptures that are published - and many more that aren't- and they are all under the authority of the vadtal panth. yet the truth always comes out - if you don't believe now some day you will have to- there is no other way. one really good thing that came out of this is that i know i have the need to read our scriptures. I am going to read up on our scriptures - but i don't feel the need to argue with you - b/c regardless of what you think - the truth will remain to be the truth. and you will get to know sooner or later- Although i can vouch with my soul that IF I FOLLOW PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ TO THE END - I WILL END UP IN MAHARAJ'S SEVA IN AKSHARDHAM- theres not a spick of a doubt in my mind. and you did not ans navs question- if you believe Gopalanand Swami as Akshar -why don't you guys have Maharaj's and Gopalanand Swamis murti's together like laxmi narayan and nar-narayan??

Yes I was right in stating that BAPS santos do not live in the way Shriji Maharaj has shown. This is clearly visible. Maybe you should read the Purshottam Prakash and maybe you would understand clearly. Im not talking about how nice and good a person he is, im talking about living as a tyaagi under Shriji Maharajs instructions. Ok? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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Secondly I ask you once again stop tarnishing and taking avgun of Vadtal saints. As the ones that are recognised as not worthy are excommunicated as per Shriji maharajs wishes. When you state Vadtal sadhus you include all the saintly ones as well do you know this? Shashri maharajs preaching is nowhere in the shastras shown. Show me where athis Gunatot Parampara is showed? I ask all BAPS people but nowhere is it stated. No one gives me this proff but just diverts away from this question. Your guru maybe whatever but he does not lead his life as Shriji maharaj established. These saints can be found only under the original Gadi. Have you read desh vibhaag lekh? Well here is a point from it which is made my Shriji Maharaj Himself:<o:p></o:p>
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Our command to all Sadhus and all Brahmcharis and all Palas and all our followers (satsangi) is, that no one at any time deviate from, or cause others to deviate from, what we have here written; they shall always remain obedient to their spiritual preceptors. They shall not let quarrels arise between the two ruling preceptors. He who, misrepresenting matters, brings about quarrels and strife between them, and disobeys our commands, betrays our word and betrays his Guru. He is not Ours. Regard him as an outcast (chaandaal),
30. Written in the Darbar of Khachar Dada Ebhal at the auspicious place of Gadhada on Margashirsh Sudi 15th, Samvat 1883.
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What do you think of this? <o:p></o:p>
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Whether the Acharyas do or do not live in their niyams that is their individual problem. Truth is that even if they do not stay in niyam they give moksh just because of their gadi. This is clearly stated in the Satsangi Jivan which you clearly have not read. Its their position which gives moksh. Also do not take avgun of the Dharmvanshi Acharyas like you do. Even Gunatitanand swami states this in His vatos. Brahmroop is a state of the soul. If the soul discards all maya, inner enemies, realises itself as the jeev with great atmanistha and the worships Parbrahm Purshottam Bhagwan is said to become brahmroop. I know of many Grahast bhakts like this so what to talk of the tyagi saints? By the way you feel that we get our gyan from the Acharya. But truth is that we get our gyan through true enlightened Brahmroop nand santo like saints. They live today in the way shown by Shriji Maharaj and not even violate one rule. For example Shriji Maharaj has clearly states within the Satsangi Jivan that the tyagis should get diskha from the Dharmvanshi Acharyas. Why? Yagnapurush Swami also did, did he not? Then why do the BAPS saints violate this agna? What is the reason? Also the females should get initiated by the Acharyas wives. Same with the tyagi Sankhyogi ladies. We also have the Mantra stated in our ear. The very same mantra that Ramanuj Acharya gave to Ramanand swami and Ramanand Swami gave to Dharmdev and Bhaktimata. Which Ramanand Swami gave to Shriji Maharaj on His diksha and which Swaminarayan Bhagwan stated in the ears of the two Acharyas who were the sons of brothers, who then have passed them down in their lineage and given to Bhakts. The saints Maharaj talks of in the Vachnamrut is not BAPS saints, as these saints have violated more than one of their tyagi niyams. These saints are those that are under the refuge of the Dharmvansh and have not violated even one niyam ever. Mahraj has given us these true saints to liberate us. We know clearly that if the Acharyas do not do as they are meant to then they do have to suffer their consequences. So it’s not like the Brahmins you state of 1000 years ago. <o:p></o:p>
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Please re paste/post clearly where NAV has answered my questions. I questioned this post of his back. It is he who did not reply. By the way I am not arguing. Im cool here in search of what answers you have. You should be happy that you could get stronger in your faith from answering these questions. However you do not answer with scriptural evidence in any way. For example from the Dharm Shastra of the Swaminarayan Sampraday which is the Satsangi Jivan. This scripture Shriji Maharaj read and was so happy after it was composed that he put it on his head. He embraced all the santos that had helped compose it most of all Santdasji. How can you again and again lie about our scriptures being re-edited??????????????????????????????? The original scriptures are still here present today!!!!!!!! What more could you want? Why do you not read them if you think the others are edited? These are surely not edited! The Sikshapatri you agree is not edited. Yet you cannot even answer the questions I pose about it. The Harililamrut has 10 Kalashs’s. The yare called Kalash’s not 12 or 16. so stop lying and accusing and amusing in such ways. Also state clearly which scripture has not been published? State here clearly wit hteh name……. Don’t just state such without any proof. I show yo uproof but your closed eyes do not want to be opened to see it. We have nothing to hide. Its you that hides. Hides from the Agna and Upasna as it is and accuse of others of hiding and assuming. Why would we do such? You think we want to hide the words of God? If it was the case how do you expect the so many miracles tah tare being performed by saints, bhakt, parshads and even Sankhyogi baios. Let alone the murtis which Shriji Maharaj has consecrated Himself!! HAHA. This is what you come out with? This is vachan droh and also guru droh not to mention insulting Shriji Maharaj’s Siddhant. It will be all you at the end of your lives who will come to realise. If Gunatitanand swami wanted to establish this so called Gunatit Parampara then why did he not establish it and instead stay wit even the second generation of Acharyas? There is a lot to question. Do read the Bochasan Bandh, You will come to know all yourself. Also your mistaken about the shastras about them being under the Vadtal Gadi. If you read the Satsangi Jivan you can clearl ysee that Shriji maharaj gave the same amount of scriptures to the Amdavad Gadi. The Nand santos made two copies of all shastras. This was just for the mandirs alone. These were copied many times by them and handed out. For example my father has a hand written copy by Manubhavanand swami of the Bhaktchintamani, which is copied from the original one by Nishkulanand swami. I will never believe your charlatan ways. Yes you definitely need to read t he scriptures. As you have not the gyaan as can be seen by your views. This also means that you are biased. The truth surely remains truth. But your ignorance still binds you. Its your business what you believe but truth is far from what you believe at he moment. I know for a fact that I will be in seva of Shriji Maharaj in Akshardham. My guru who is a true saint confirms this. <o:p></o:p>
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By the way I have answered your question about Gopalanand swami before. This clearly shows that you have not even read my post carefully. Shriji Maharaj has never stated a Upasna where Akshar should be worshipped alongside of Him. It is not Vedic to do such. If you read the Vyas sutra, Gita Bhashya by Ramanuj acharya and also the scriptures written by the Nadn saints, noweher is it stated that such a way of worship should be carried out. We clearly recognise Gopalanand swami as Akshar but we foolow his gyaan. As even dhyaan of such a brahmveta or Akshar Himself is not right to do. Dhyaan be it Sangopang or dharana can be done of God only. Nar narayan bahgwan, Laksminarayan Bhagwan, Radha Krushna Bhagwan are all Avtaars of Bhagwan. Akshar is not an avtaar nor is he God Himself. He does seva of Bhagwan in four ways. Firstly, in His service in Akshardham. Secondly, as the abode of Akshardham itself or as the other dhaams such as Badrik, Vaikunth Shvetdvip of Golok where the murtis of Bhagwan live such as Nar narayan etc. Thirdly, as the adhaar of all the innumerable universes and fourthly when Bhagwan or his avatars come on the earth such as Sadguru Gopalanand swami when Shriji Maharaj came on the earth. <o:p></o:p>
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Jai Swaminarayan. <o:p></o:p>
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so what ure saying is that if the Acharyas don't follow the shikshapatri they are not fit to be excommunicated but everyone else is - now ure the one whose contradicting ureself- where as Pramukh Swami and ALL his santos live by the Shikshapatri - and THATS WHY HE IS FIT TO GIVE US MOKSHA - even Nishkulanand Swami talks of what kind of Guru is a fit ro be a Guru in the Chosat padi - one who has kaam - will make you into a kaami one who has krodh will make you into a krodhi. THEREFORE THAT QUALIFIES PUJYA PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ AS A TRUE GURU! B/C HE HAS NONE OF THOSE QUALITIES - HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN TAKE US TO AKSHARDHAM. cos to go to Akshardham you HAVE TO BE Brahmaswaroop - WHICH IS A QUALITY THAT CANNOT BE GIVEN BY AN ACHARYA - WHO CAN NOT EVEN FOLLOW THE MERE NIYAMS GIVEN TO HIM AS AN ACHARYA!!!! There are pious Santos in Vadtal - but my point was that the ones that were not - WERE STILL KEPT IN THE SANSTHA FOR OVER 8YRS - UNTIL THEY DID WRONG THAT WAS FOUND OUT BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC. THEY WAITED UNTIL THE SANTOS COULD TARNISH THE WHOLE PANTH. WELL THAT SAYS ALOT ABOUT THE SANSTHA.

Oh and just to let you know if what the sokhda mandir is claiming IS TRUE - about Pramukh Swami beating their head etc - then Pramukh Swami would also have been excommunicated from the Sanstha - Just as the Acharya who excommunicated Shastriji Maharaj was excommunicated himself later! besides - u can see for ureself - compare papaji to Pramukh Swami Maharaj - their is a CLEAR difference in their Aachaar Vichaar! and u said it ureself - Pramukh Swami is a good person - and in my understanding good people donot beat other people up! just saying by common sense.

when you say Pramukh Swami Maharaj does not follow Maharajs annuvrutti - what makes you say that - does he drink ? is he an alchemist ? as far as respecting the acharya - you know better than i do - that He does respect the acharya- Infact So far He is doing better than the acharyas who have court cases unfolded on them by VADTAL Followers- because they have trust funds used for their personal reasons. In the shikshapatri it is stated that the acharya should give diksha to santos- but where is it written that santos should only take diksha from acharyas. where is it written that a Sant cannot give diksha to another sant? if Maharaj had given an aganaa to santos that "if you want to be a sant - make sure u only get initiated by the acharya"- then our sanstha would be disregarding Maharajs orders - but that is obviously not the case. Tho it is wrtten that a sadhu should not have any possessions or commit adultery in any form or situation.IN the satsangijivan granth it says that if a sadhu keeps even a codi as his possession he will suffer the sin of killing 1000 cows everyday- and if a common person listens to that sadhus katha - he/she would also be considered sinner - the sin is so sever that they would have to do chandrayan vrat to get out of it. There have been sadhus (NOT ALL- BUT MANY) in the vadtal panth who have broken all their basic niyams - I live in North America and when ever theres somthing that goes wrong in vadtal - which comes out in public people ask me - is this what you sampraday is all about?- And this same thing does not and will not happen in our panth because Maharaj is pragat in Pramukh Swami Maharaj. Unlike the Acharyas - Pramukh Swami Maharaj vartman padave chhe! And one of the last shloks of Maharaj says that who ever does not follow the Shikshapatri is considered excommunicated- this applys to all( including the acharyas) not just the common people or the sadhus- therefore you should go tell your acharyas that they are not following the shikshapatri of Maharaj WHICH THEY SHOULD - B/C THEIR BEHAVIOUR IS AFFECTING EVERYONE IN THE VADTAL SAMPRADAY. I honestly think you guys should do somthing about that - because this does not just give a bad impression of the Vadtal sanstha - but it brings a bad impression upon the whole Swaminarayan Samuday.
You said that it is not the Vedic way to have God and His choiciest devotees together - then why do we have Radha and Krishna , Laxmi and Narayan? - well ill tell you -the whole point is that you have to become like radha to be the best devotee of Krishna. - you have to be Aksharoop in order to serve Purshottam. and thats why WE HAVE AKSHAR AND PURSHOTTAM TOGETHER IN THE MADHYA KHAND.

JUST COS YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES DOES NOT MEAN THAT THEY CANNOT BE RE-EDITTED BY CUTTING PARTS OF IT- THE HARILILAMRUT HAD 16 KALASHS ORIGINALLY - WHY DID THEY CUT OUT THE LAST ONES ? AND SINCE YOU BELONG TO THE VADTAL SANSTHA - WHY DON'T YOU GO TO THE MANDIRS AND TRY TO FIND OUT URESELF COS THERE ARE MORE SCRIPTURES THAT ARE STILL NOT PUBLISHED!- IT WILL BE AN EYE OPENER - THERE IS ONE SCRIPTURE OUT OF THE MANY THAT I KNOW OF- THE VEDRAS - WHICH WE GOT WITH THE OTHER MATERIALS OF SHASTRIJI MAHARAJ ( BY CHANCE ) FROM THE VADTAL MANDIR- AND WE PUBLISHED IT!

AND GUNATITANAND SWAMI DID SAY IN THE OPEN THAT HE WAS MUL AKSHAR - THERE WAS A HUGE OPPOSITION BECAUSE BHAGATJI MAHARAJ USED TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT THE GUNATIT GNAN AND SOME PEOPLE AS USUAL NEVER DID LIKE IT- IT GOT TO THE POINT THAT GUNATITANAND SWAMI WAS ACCUSED OF TRYING TO MAKE HIMSELF GOD- THATS WHEN SWAMI CAME TO VADTAL AND CLARIFIED - HE SAID THE ONE THAT CALLS HIMSELF GOD IS THE WORLDS GREATEST DONKEY BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SUPREME GOD OTHER THAN SWAMINARAYAN BHAGWAAN- AND THERE IS NO OTHER MUL AKSHAR OTHER THAN MYSELF . TELL ME HE WAS LYING TOO ?
Navs proof is very substantial - but if you can not see through it - its not our fault.


JaiSwaminarayan

Our Goal as Swaminarayans is to have dharma gnaan vairagya and bhakti and attain Akshardham - ekantikpanu sidh karvu ane ante Akshardham pamvu- this can only be done thru Pragat Bhagwaan -there is no other way even if man perserveres for 100,000yrs- i'm not saying this Maharaj has said this himself in Vachanamrut loya 7, Madhya 21, Antya 2, Antya7. by Pragat Bhagwaan he means Purna Purshottam Swaminarayan Bhagwaan - Sarva Avtaar na Avtaari- Sarva Kaaran na Kaaran- Above Prakruti Purush and Also Virat Purush ( from whom all the avtars are born - including shri krishna bhagwaan) ( jetalpur 5). But the only thing is Maharaj left earth along time ago - and so how can we then get moksh - if we do get moksha without pragat bhagwaan - then what Maharaj said would prove to be wrong - but this obviously cannot be the case -so it is only through Pragat that we can get moksha ( which could be a murti or a prasadi item - but they cannot give updesh and they do not say anything even if you drink infront of them)( it can't be through the Acharyas either - cos they are in the same pit as we are in - so how can they remove us ? and besides Acharyas have never been mentioned in terms of leading people to liberation in the scriptures) - therefore it is only Pramukh Swami Maharaj- a true sant - a true Guru- ekantik sant in whom maharaj lives in every pore - thru whom we attain moksha -and maharaj says in antya 35- that -eva sant ma Bhagwaan akhand virajman chhe - ane eva sant ne sev vu e Bhagwaan ne sevya barabar chhe - there are other refs that u shud read in order to understand this point - pratham 27, 37, 57, 68, sarangpur 10, antya 26,27,35 madhya 28 ( Read it - nowhere does it say that you can get moksh from an acharya- BUT IT CAN ONLY BE ATTAINED BY A TRUE SANT)- He is Brahma - we cannot medidtate on the knower of Brahma - which is jiva or ishwar ( this is according to the shikshapatri)- but nowhere does it say that we cannot medidtate on Brahma - that is Akhand Dharak of Parabrahma Purna Purshottam Swaminarayan. therefore the conclusion is that BAPS is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT in its ways - the vadtal panth would have been good if everything was in accordance to Maharajs aagnaa - TRUE FACT IS that IT IS NOT IN MOST CASES!. You yourself have admitted that you will go to Akshardham -b/c of your Guru - WHO IS A TRUE SANT! - NOT DUE TO THE ACHARYAS.and thats exactly what i'm trying to say- your Guru is not Pramukh Swami Maharaj - Fair enuff - whateva makes you happy- but the point is AKSHARDHAM IS NOT JUST EASY PEASY ATTAINMENT - that you just get it by being under authority of Acharya regardless of what ure acharyas and what ure character is like- you NEED a true Sant who is ekantik in order to become ekantik- b/c thats ure gauranteed ticket to Akshardham.

only one who abides by the niyams of a sadhu ( by word deed and thought)can be called a sadhu - and the same applys to an acharya! This is the explanation that i can give to the best of my knowledge so far.

This is not about anyone person or sampraday - this is about moksha- attaing Akshardham - and if you want moksha then you will realise the TRUTH - that Sacha Sant thij Moksha thay chhe - bijo koi saadhan nathi.
Regardless of what you think I feel i am EXTREMELY blessed to be born into the BAPS sanstha - If you don't feel the same way thats ure problem.- and MAHARAJ HAS GIVEN ME HIS BLESSINGS BY GIVING ME THE MOST PURE AND PIOUS GURU - AND THE PUREST UPASNAA -i will do my readings - and I WILL REMAIN A BAPS UPAASAK - COS UNLIKE YOU (WHO HAVE THE ACHARYA AS A GURU- WHO MIGHT NOT BE BRAHMAROOP(- u admitted to this yourself) I HAVE PRAMUKH SWAMI MAHARAJ (who i can vouch for with my soul that he is Akshar-roop - ekantik sant)- AND FOR ME HIS WORDS ARE ENOUGH PROOF!!! - AND HE WILL TAKE ME TO AKSHARDHAM! AND SAME GOES FOR ALL TRUE BAPS FOLLOWERS! And i don't have anything against the Vadtal Sanstha - only that they keep accusing us of being in the wrong when they themselves have so many things going wrong on the basic level . It seems to me as if we ( BAPS) pose as a threat to the Vadtal sanstha - cos If we were a small sanstha ( that is inconspicuos- like some other sects within the Swaminarayan samuday) YOU would ave just forgotten about the fact that there is A sanstha that was brought up by sant that was excommunicated by vadtal. therefore i pray that maharaj shows you light and gives you the buddhi and bal to follow the RIGHT agnaa and upasnaa. - U seem to be an enthusiast of Swaminarayan - so i believe Maharaj will show you the right path- if not in this birth may be in another.

SWAMISHREEJI NU E GNAAN SIHN GARJA NA SAMA - SURA HOY TO SUNN JO SAAN - KACHA POCHA NE NATHI E KAAM NU!
Jaiswaminarayan

No if the Acharyas have antarshatrus then that is their individual problem. If they have faults that are not in accordance with the scriptures then they are too are excommunicated. This occurs. So get your facts right. Just like recently the Vadtal Acharya was made padbrasth. So don’t try and twist my words my friend. So no im not contradicting myself. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>
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How can you state that BAPS santos live by the Sikshapatri? You liar. Even a non Swaminarayan follower can see this. Do they welcome Acharyas when the come in the Bhaghor of the cities they reside? Do they follow Shloka 62? Do they get initiated by the Acharyas? Stop lying my friend. Pramukh Swami doesn’t even follow agna of a tyagi of the Swaminarayan faith. Then how can he show Moksh? Don’t bring Nishkulanand swami in this at all. When truth is you are not even following Nishkulanand Swamis rest of the Kavyas. For example the Purshottam Prakash written by Nishkulanand Swami states clearly that the acharyas are the fourth way to Akshardham. The Ekantik should not leave the refuge of the dharmkul etc.HAHA. How hypocritical of you. First read the scriptures as they are then come on here teaching about the siddhants of Shriji Maharaj. You cant just cherry pick the scriptures you think you should and the rest you discard. <o:p></o:p>
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You talk about Brahmswaroop. U know so many Ekantik sadhus whoe are true brahm swaroop. I even know Gruhast who are. Being Brahmswaroop means to become one with brahm. To realise yourself (the soul) as Akshar and worship Swaminarayan Bhagwan. Rate Brahm thay ne Parbrahm ne Bhaje re, harijan hoy the hari ne bhaje re. Brahmanand swami clearl ystates this and so do all the scriptures of the faith. You think only one being can become Brahmswaroop? Anyway Pramukh swmai might have many saintly qualities but following the Agna of Shriji maharaj is not one of them for sure. You follow BAPS so it’s expected to talk like you do. <o:p></o:p>
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I’ve followed BAPS and the authentic Sampraday Shriji Maharaj established. You become Brahmswaroop through gyan through an Ekantik Sadhu. Through atmanistha, mahtmya sahit Gyaan, Dharm, Bhakti and Vairagya. When your at this stage you have no inner enemies, realise ones own soul as the Jeev and the swaroop of brahm. This is called brahmswaroop. Where in the Vachnamrut does it state that there can only be one brahmswaroop Sadhu? HAHA this is where you all BAPS followers go wrong. Where also does it state such a thing as a guntit parampara? You always fail to address my questions. Im not stating that the Acharya makes one Brahmswaroop. When did I state that? I clearly state that Shriji Maharaj’s Ekantik saints like I described above and by serving them can give such a status. You need t read the Vachnamrut much carefully. <o:p></o:p>
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Listen Bhagwan will not bring down the Sanstha that He Himself created. You BAPS broke away only 100 years ago. Before this and till date this Sampraday has been living and forever flourishing. When turns take for the bad in this Satsang Shriji Maharaj sends His mukts down to clear it up like HE has and does even today. No matter what we have not broke away from anything that Shriji Maharaj created. We are as it was as Bhagwan Swaminarayan established. We have not added anything to it nor took anything away or changed anything. Both the Acharyas in the Sampraday today of Amdavad and Vadtal are true Acharyas. Do you see any faults in them? You talk of pious santos in Vadtal. My friend they are Ekantik saints who have become Brahmswaroop. You lifting fingers at the original diocese in general. You really thing these avguns will get you far? <o:p></o:p>
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Sokhda Mandir has nothing to do with the original Sampraday which Shriji Maharaj established. It fell out of BAPS. So are you calling Hariprasad Swami as wrong? That he is lying? HAHA. Now you should understand how Yagnapurush swami broke away. Same thing. What goes around comes around. By the way you need to get your facts right. Lamkshiprasadji Maharaj was not excommunicated from the Sanstha. HAHA. He was on the Gadi for 11 years, he then fell ill and passed away a few years later. He gave the Gadi to Shripatiprasdji Maharaj. So get your facts right. By the way even Gunatitanand swami used to give samagam along with Gopalanand swami, and many other nand santo like Adbhutanand Swami, Bhumanand swami etc to Bhagvatprasadji Maharaj. Gunatitanand swami gave samagam to Bhgvatprasadji maharaj for 10 whole years. If it was so that this Upasna should have been started then by this time he to would have left and made BAPS. But he not break away. Nor did his shishyas. They to stayed giving gyaan to Viharilalji Maharj in the right way and not a made up Upasna. As their gyaan was not the gyaan that BAPS today give out. Viharilalji maharaj was 15 when Gunatitanand swami went to dham. All the lineage of the saint of these nand santo got Tyagi bhagvati Diksha by these Acharyas. Only the BAPS lot changed this. <o:p></o:p>
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You take avgun of Acharyas is also against the wishes of Gunatitanand Swami. Do you know this? The Acharyas do not drink nor do they steal funds. Have you seen them do this? Then that is an avgun. As what you have heard may not be true. I have heard so much but I do not state what’s invisible, I state what I see and compare it to the words of Swaminarayan Bhagwan. I state what I do as the tyagis dharmas are not in line with what Pramukh swmai follows or what he does. Firstly the Acharya should initiate the tyago of the Swaminarayan Sampraday. Where to they get their Mantra from otherwise? The same mantra given by Ramanand swami. The acharyas do not need trust funds. HAHA. Thet get a lot of daan from their bhakts alone. They are Grahasts. They would not steal even 1 rupee from the sansthas. What proof do you have of this?
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Even GunatitanandSwami, one of the main sadhus of Swaminarayan Bhagwan states “He who insults the temples, Acharyas, sadhus and satsangi’s will find his roots being destroyed and will inevitably fall from the satsang.” (Swami ni Vato Prakran 5, Vat 104)
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It is written in the Satsangi Jivan in the 4<SUP>th</SUP> Prakran that the tyagi of the Swaminarayan Sampraday should get diksha from the Acharya on the dharmkul lineage only. There you go. Have anything more to say? Snatos can accept shishyas by giving them saamanya doksha. But the Bhagvati diksha should be given by the Acharya of the Dharmkul only. This is what I am stating that you BAPS are disrespecting the wish of Shriji Maharaj. Also do the females of BAPS get diksha of the Acharyas wives? This is stated within the Sikshapatri and Satsangi Jivan too. That is why I state that read the scriptures. The original scriptures as they are can be read in the original Mandirs which are hand written by the Nand Santos. You talk about the fake sadhus. Which we all agree with. I also do not along with many other thousands of bhakts listen to such so called sadhus kathas. Truth is such so-called sadhu’s do not even have the strength to read such sacred shastras. Listen do you think these sadhus will get away with such? They will suffer in hell for it. Do you think Shriji Maharaj will not give them justice? So to tarnish the whole sect is evil. Shrji Maharaj today even performs so many miracles through the many hundreds of true sainst and also his murtis. Even recently if you go to Rajasthan yo uwill come to see a miracle which was performed by in the Mandir of the Shri vallabhacharay sect. Which occurred with the son of the current Acharya of Amdavad! The Vallabh Acarya followers and acharya and Pujari also saw this. These are people of another Sampraday and they too witnessed such parchas. So to state what you do is not at all right. Clearly shows your hatred and avgun of the original Gadis Acharyas, Santos and their Satsang of the over 5million bhakts that both the diocese have.

The Acharyas also Vartmaan padave and also so do the true Santos. These bad apples exist in every walk of life. If I wanted I too could join BAPs and become a Sadhu and do many bad things. Should BAPS be blamed for this? No. in the same way you blaming the actual Sampraday is wrong of you. You do not see the greatness of this Satsang. You have not experienced it that’s why. <o:p></o:p>
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Worshipping of Radha Krishna, nar narayan, Laksmi Narayan is within the scriptures. God has given such ways to worship Him. Anyway Radha, Nar, laksmi are all Ansh avatars of Bhagwan. Akshar is a mukt not an ansh of Bhagwan. He is not a shakto of Bhagwan. He is the disciple. Nar is the actual avtaar of Bhagwan. Nor is the worship of Akshar been mentioned by Bhagwan in any of His hand written scriptures or letters written by shukdevji muni nor is it anywhere in the shastras of His nand santos. So this is why we do not worship Akshar alongside Swaminarayan Bhagwan. If this was wanted He would have consecrated such murtis along with His even in Vadtal or Amdavad or any other of the six mandirs He built or even at least stated in the scriptures for such future worship to be carried out. But no. He could have at least stated that Akshar should be worshipped alongside me and consecrated the murto of Akshar but he did not. He did not even have to say who Akshar incarnate is when HE would have done such. But He did not. He also stated when He was going back to Akshardham that what He has come down for is all accomplished and nothing more is left to be done. But you BAPS followers that something is still left to be done in terms of Upasna by the looks of it. <o:p></o:p>
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Yes you have to be Akshar roop but this does not mean we worship Akshar to become Akshar roop. You become Akshar roop only by worshipping Swaminarayan Bhagwan as He stated. <o:p></o:p>
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You still state that we have edited the Original scriptures. Well if this was the case it could be seen on the text. They are big scriptures. Hand written by santos. Why would we edit them? What we need to hide or get rid of? You feel that we do not require Moksh? You should not state such this is doing droh of the Nand Santos. How can you state that we have edited the scriptures? For example there is a Sikshapatri in the Oxford Bodlein muesuem given to sir ,alcolm John. How is that edited? How is the satsnagi Jivan edited etc? I mean for example if the Vadtal Acharya edited it then what about the copy in Amdavad? Is this what pramukh Swami states? That these scriptures are edited? How can he state such??? I though he was a good person. Well if this is what he teaches and thinks he is most definitely not a good person. Why don’t you go yourself and have a look at the scriptures yourself? They are not edited. For example the Bhaktchintamani at my home was given my a great saint who used to have darshan of Mahraj in His pujas even. Such a Brahmswaroop Ekantiks saint gave this Bhaktchintamani to my greta Grandafther Laksman jetha of Naranpur village in Kutch. Now how can you say that is edited? I have looked at every page. It is re written By Manubhavanand swami in Samvat 1897. So you are stating this is edited? Then you need help. This is a false accusation. <o:p></o:p>
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What about the Shlokas and Artis edited by BAPS? What of this? All 225 scriptures are published. Which scripture is not published tell me? Tell me the name. Achintyanand Swami has narrated the Harilimarut to abhay raja. I have full 10 Kalashs at my home. Viharilalji maharaj himself states this and he is the one who has compiled this. Why do you think we would delete works of our own Acharya? Before you stated that there were 12. So please could you give me the other extra 2 you have? HAHA. Also what ”extra” leelas are in there? LOL. Anyway these shastras were recently written and definitely after Shriji Maharaj and the Nand Santos. Viharilaji Maharaj wrote them after he became Acharya in Samvat 1940. Why would his own sons do such to him and change his work? You like to accuse and assume too much. <o:p></o:p>
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You talk of the Vedaras. Well how is it not published? HAHA. Harijivandasji Swami of Vadtal Gnanbaag published this scripture in 1968! HAHA. So you are wrong once again. What evidence do you have that Gunatitanand swami declared Himself as Akshar? You have your eyes closed to the truth. So its not your fault you cant see actual nand Santos proof and evidence. For example the Nirgun swamis Vatos, Param Chaitanyanand swamis vato, Nishkulanand swamis experience and Adbhutanand Swamis vatos and even the Sikshapatri and other scriptures such as Adharanand Swamis vato. You think this is all a conspiracy or something. Well all I can say is carry on and you shall see at the end of your own life. Where you will definitely after be reborn in a good family which has the ability to learn true Upasna as it is and have the ability to follow Agna. <o:p></o:p>

Im not saying that we shouldn’t have dharma gnaan vairagya and bhakti and attain Akshardham - ekantikpanu sidh karvu ane ante Akshardham pamvu- this can only be done thru Pragat Bhagwaan -there is no other way even if man perseveres for 100,000yrs. I know of all this. We believe the same. We know that Ekantik saint opens the doors to Akshgardham. We know this. Its in the Gadhda Pratham na Vachnamruts. You need to read Nishkulanand Kavya. Nishkulanand Swami clearly states that the Dharmvanshi acharyas are the fourth and last door to Akshardham. First is Murtis, then Santos, then Scriptures then Acharyas. This is clearly written. Shall I type it here for you? <o:p></o:p>
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mahaarj not only states in Antya 35 but in many other Vachnamruts too such as pratham 27 and many more. But we already know of such Ekantik saints. You think Pramukh swami can do this alone. Truth is he cannot show Atyantik moksh at all as he himself is devoid of Upasna and agna. This is where you are mistaken. Before Yagnapurush Swamis time how did the bhakts get moksh then? Do you think that after Shriji maharaj went dham Gopalanand swami did not give moksh? Muktanand Swami, Shatanand Swami, Nishkulanand Swami, Nityanand Swami etc did not give moksh to any? That they were not Brahmswaroop? You are very mistaken. I have read the Vachnamrut and understood it perfectly with my guru who has the whole scripture on his mouth. He knows the whole Vachnamrut by mouth and he himself is also very samarth and has had the darshan of Shriji Maharaj many times. Do you want to meet him if you do not believe me? Pramukh swami himself has met him. I will state again that the Acharya is the fourth door to Akshardham. You will feel bad when you come to read it for yourself. You cannot meditate on Brahm. Only Shriji Maharaj alone is worthy to be carried out Dhyaan on. Where does it state in the scriptures that one can meditate on Akshar? I also state clearly that we do not worship the Acharya we do his pujans and realise the greatness of the position he is. As no one can be worshipped like God not even a sant or an acharya. I’ve never stated that this is the case. You always assume things. I’ve clearly stated that we have to have atmanistha, realise oneself like Akshar and as the soul worship the supersoul. This is even in the Harigita. Putting words in my mouth will get you nowhere LOL. <o:p></o:p>
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So you think our current acharyas do not act like acharyas? Care to tell me why? I know clearly that Sacha sant noh moksh thay che,. You also somehow think that Sant means a tyagi. Sant can also mean Satpurush like Janak Raja. This is within the scriptures. A gruhast can also be a sant. Adharanand Swami calls Parvatbhai as a sant in his granth the Haricharitramrut sagar. By serving the Acharya we can get moksh. We can get moksh through serving the murtis of Bhagwan. We can get moksh through serving the bhakts. But we get the gyaan of serving through an Ekantik Sant. Therefore the sant is named in the Vachnamrut as the doors to Akshardham. As none would serve selflessly without this gyaan which an Ekantik can give. <o:p></o:p>
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Regardless of what you feel, im blessed and consider myself to have done many pious deeds in my last life to attain such a guru and under the refuge of the dharmvnshi diocese and not under some break away cult. As this is what Shriji Maharaj has required his followers to do. The scriptures declare this. I hope the likes of you read the scriptures. How you feel is your personal problem. Truth remains truth irrespective of how you see it. Like I stated the Acharyas may not be brahmroop and sadhaks and just like Raguvirji maharaj get gyaan from true Santos which they do. Which is the reet that Shriji Maharaj showed. We are not Vachan drohis at least. We are Sahajanandi sinh. I will not be reborn. I have heard of people get darshan at the end of their lives in this very life of mine. Nothing can take me off this path. I will carry on to show others the true way as Shriji maharaj established instead of letting them follow the ways of the kusangis. I have shown many so called BAPS bhakts the true way at least 15 in the UK, with proofs and I shall carry on doing so throughout my life. <o:p></o:p>
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This is not for the likes of the weak who follow blindly. They are like the blind folling the blind. This is the same for BAPS, The blind follow the blind. It is not yet their time for Moksh. They are not on the level required. <o:p></o:p>
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You have never answered my questions or comments in my many previous posts nor talked about the proofs I give you from scriptures. What of this? Where is the proofs you were going to get me about Akshar being Gunatitanand swami in the Scriptures? And the so called gunatit parampara in the scriptures? Which nand sant accepted gold thrones? <o:p></o:p>
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Jai Swaminarayan.<o:p></o:p>
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“My Bhramin, Kshatriya and Vaishya followers who have received Shri Krshna Diksha (initiation) from the Dharmavanshi (descendants of Dharmadev) Acharyas, shall wear a double tulsi kanthi (rosary) around their neck and shall wear a U-shaped tilak on their forehead, chest, and both harms.” (Shikshapatri Shlok 41)

In the Shikshapatri (62), Swaminarayan Bhagwan clearly states:
“And the form of Shri Krshna that has been given by your Acharya for the purpose of your worship and the forms that the Acharya has installed (i.e. in the mandirs) are the only forms of God worthy of worship. The rest are worthy of respect but not worthy of worship”
Therefore, the only murtis (deities) worthy of worship are those installed by the Acharyas.
In the Shikshapatri, Swaminarayan Bhagwan has placed a lot of importance on the Acharyas.

Shlok 71:
“All my followers shall never enter into debate with their Acharyas and shall serve the Acharyas with food, clothing, money etc according to their capacity.”

Shlok 72:
“Upon hearing of their coming, my followers should immediately go to greet and welcome the arrival of their Acharyas, and when the Acharya returns from the town my followers shall see them off to the outskirts of the town.”

In the scripture Purushottam Prakash, the writer Nishkulanand Swami describes the instance when Swaminarayan Bhagwan established the Dharmavanshi Acharya’s.

Sahajanand Swami felt that now that He had established the grand temples and splendid Sampraday, He wanted to keep His sadhus free from the affairs dealing with wealth, power etc. He therefore decided that He would create leaders for each and every sadhu and householder, who will subsequently be responsible for the Sampraday.
This was in accordance with one of His three resolves; i.e. to establish the leaders of the Sampraday from His own family - Dharmakul.

Before declaring His intention to select His own family, Lord Shree Swaminarayan first gathered the senior sadhus/saints and followers and revealed His intention to install successors to the leadership.

The gathering that included seniors such as S.G. Muktanand Swami, S.G. Gopalanand Swami, S.G. Brahmanand Swami etc. as well as householders such as Dada- Uttam Khachar, unanimously recommended to Lord Shree Swaminarayan that He retain the leadership in His own Dharmakul and select Ayodhyaprasadji or Raghuvirji.

Lord Shree Swaminarayan was very pleased with this suggestion, for this was His own thinking as well. Since there was no room for discussion or further consideration, it was concluded that Lord Shree Swaminaryan's successors will be from His own Dharmakul and will be householders.

Sahajanand Swami then adopted Ayodhyaprasadji and Raghuvirprasadji as His own sons and made them the Acharyas – the Gurus of the Swaminarayan Sampraday.

He then declared, “Those who serve these Acharyas with food, jewellery, vehicles, animals, flowers etc shall be worthy of Akshardham…………. I shall emancipate those who serve and respect these Acharyas. Through these Acharyas I shall give kalyaan (give Akshardham) to all souls………." (Purushottam Prakash Chapter 37, Verse 6-20)
“…After a lot of thought and consideration I have decided to give the Gadi to them…” (Chapter 39 Verse 8)

“Therefore all of you shall obey the Dharamkul and serve them. They are not ordinary beings; they are great Devtas (Gods). As well as being my Sons they are Brahmin and my Bhaktas and by serving them you shall earn immense happiness. All your wishes will be fulfilled, this is my command that is to remain permanently.”

“So both householders and sadhus obey their (Acharyas’) commands, and not the fancies of the mind. Do not take any actions without their consent…..do not enter into debates with them even if you are greater in knowledge or wisdom…you shall regard the Acharyas as faultless – you shall obey their commands. If you keep them pleased then I will be pleased with you because they are in place of Myself….. I am forever residing in them. I am in them, and they are in Me. I am never far from them and I give darshan (divine sightings) residing in them……….”

“I am forever residing in the Dharmavanshi Acharyas. After seeing such followers I have decided to remain here (in the satsang), therefore those who worship the Acharyas have worshipped Me.”
(Purushottam Prakash Chapter 40)

The establishment of the Dharmavanshi Acharyas was therefore immensely important for both administrative and spiritual purposes.

The constitution of the Sampraday is laid out in Desh Vibhag no Lekh, which describes in detail the functions of the Acharyas.

“….it is my command to all sadhus, bhramcharis and all satsangi's, that for the purpose of your kalyaan (emancipation) you must obey and follow the two Acharyas of Dharmavansh, and obey their commands by thought, action and speech. If this is compromised and whoever turns elsewhere (rejecting the Acharyas) will find that they will never find sukh (happiness) in this world or the worlds beyond and will experience immense distress…” (Desh Vibhag no Lekh)