Confused about text 6 in Karma Yoga.

I_love_krishna_ · 09-22-2003, 04:30 PM

karmendriyani samyamya
ya aste manasa smaran
indriyarthan vimudhatma
mithyacarah sa ucyate

One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.
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This above verse is saying that one who cannot control his senses is a liar. I do my best to control my senses, but fail to do so sometimes, is this an offense against krishna? Am I a cheater in this way?

But the purport talks about a different kind of cheating :

purport : There are many pretenders who refuse to work in Krsna consciousness but make a show of meditation, while actually dwelling within the mind upon sense enjoyment. Such pretenders may also speak on dry philosophy in order to bluff sophisticated followers, but according to this verse these are the greatest cheaters. For sense enjoyment one can act in any capacity of the social order, but if one follows the rules and regulations of his particular status, he can make gradual progress in purifying his existence. But he who makes a show of being a yogi while actually searching for the objects of sense gratification must be called the greatest cheater, even though he sometimes speaks of philosophy. His knowledge has no value, because the effects of such a sinful man's knowledge are taken away by the illusory energy of the Lord. Such a pretender's mind is always impure, and therefore his show of yogic meditation has no value whatsoever.

So, are you a cheater if you cannot control your senses or are you a cheater if you just make off money by going into some woods to meditate? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

09-22-2003, 04:38 PM

You are cheating others if while constantly thinking of sense gratification, you give the impression that your senses are under control and allow others to praise you for your self-control.

You are cheating yourself if you are deluded into thinking you have mastered your senses because you are not acting on them and yet are still constantly contemplating sense objects.

I_love_krishna_ · 09-22-2003, 07:13 PM

Thank you prabhu, but I was actually focusing the cheating on krishna.

So, Am I cheating Krishna if I lose control of my senses?

anadi · 09-23-2003, 09:19 AM

"So, Am I cheating Krishna if I lose control of my senses? "

You are not in the position to cheat Krishna.
Never think like this.
But maybe you think you can cheat gurudeva.

"On the contrary, I see so many who, as Syamarani has told, are covering what
is there in their hearts. [Please see the end of this lecture for details]
They think, "My Gurudeva doesn't know anything; he is foolish. I can cheat
him." They don't say this directly, but they think in this way. They think
they can bluff Maharaja or any pure devotee, but a pure devotee cannot be
bluffed. He who can control Krsna - how can you bluff him? If he is really
Guru, he can never be cheated or bluffed.

You should know the identity of Guru. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has
written in his Mana Siksa prayers, "Nadharmam nadharmam srutigana. O mind,
you should always consider that Sri Sacinandana, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is
actually Brajendranandana Syamasundara, and He is actually Guru." Raya
Ramananda told Mahaprabhu, "I am only your instrument. What I am speaking is
only by your inspiration. You are speaking. The mouth is mine, but actually
everything is being said by you."

One may say, "I want to serve Mahaprabhu like the gopis: He is my beloved
Mahaprabhu, and I am His beloved." Can we do this or not? This is
sahajiya. This is called gauranga-nagari-bhava, and it is apa-siddhanta,
against conclusive philosophical truth. We should not think in this way.
Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru, and we should do whatever He orders.

One day Vallabha Bhatta said to Advaita Acarya, "Why do you loudly chant
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama, Rama Rama
Hare Hare? Every living entity is female and considers Krsna her husband. It
is the duty of a chaste wife, devoted to her husband, not to utter her
husband's name, but all of you chant the name of Krsna. How can this be
called a religious principle?"

Advaita Acarya responded, "In front of you is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the
personification of religious principles. You should ask Him, for He will
give you the proper answer." Hearing this, Mahaprabhu said, "My dear
Vallabha Bhatta, you do not know religious principles. Actually, the first
duty of a chaste woman is to carry out the order of her husband. The order
of Krsna is to chant His name incessantly. Therefore one who is chaste and
adherent to the husband, Krsna, must chant the Lord's name, for she cannot
deny the husband's order. Following this religious principle, a pure
devotee of Krsna always chants the holy name. As a result of this, he gets
the fruit of ecstatic love for Krsna. My husband has ordered me to chant
this. He has said, 'You should do this, and that will make Me happy.' I must
make Him happy. I should serve Him."

Hearing this, Vallabha Bhatta could not say a word.

Previous to this, Vallabha Bhatta had told Mahaprabhu, "I have tried to
describe elaborately the meaning of Krsna's holy name. Kindly hear the
explanation."

Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "I do not accept many different meanings for
the holy name of Krsna. I know only that Krsna is Syamasundara and
Yasodanandana. That's all I know. The only purport of the holy name of Krsna
is that He is dark blue like a tamala tree and is the son of mother Yasoda.
This is the conclusion of all the revealed scriptures. I conclusively know
these two names, Syamasundara and Yasodanandana. I do not understand any
other meanings, nor have I the capacity to understand them."

Whatever Vallabha Bhatta said, Mahaprabhu simply replied in such away that
he became speechless. He wanted to defeat Mahaprabhu and show his own glory.
He wanted to show, "How qualified I am. How learned I am." But Caitanya
Mahaprabhu is jagad- guru. Therefore, whatever He has ordered and whatever
He has taught - we should try to follow totally.

Mahaprabhu has told us, "You should chant Krsna's name. Hare Krsna."
Actually Krsna has ordered this in the shape of Mahaprabhu, and therefore we
must follow. Understand that Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Guru. He is Krsna
Himself, with the mood of Radhika. It is very important to know this. Does
anyone know anything in this world that can cover the knowledge of
Mahaprabhu? Can anything be hidden from Him? Those who have this Guru,
Mahaprabhu, in their hearts cannot be cheated or bluffed. Never, Those who
try to bluff them will be bluffed. We should not try to cheat Guru or
Vaisnavas. All Vaisnavas are Guru, and to do what they want is bhakti."

Spoken by Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja
2001 Jan 24 - Murwillumbah

armisael108 · 09-23-2003, 09:34 AM

My dear prabhu the only person you can cheat is yourself. And the verse speaks about those who show renunciation but their mind dwells in sense gratification.

One way to see it is for someone to take sannyasa, but still has sex desire. He is cheating himself badly. In the purport Prabhupada also denounces such yogis making a show-bottle meditation.

A show bottle is nice on the outside, but it has no substance inside. This is the cheating, you cheat yourself from having the thick nectar of krishna-prema.

09-24-2003, 10:50 PM

<< So, are you a cheater if you cannot control your senses >>

yes, you are cheating your self only.
to control the senses externaly, but engage the mind in the subject of the senses is cheating the self.

that does not help you progress spiritually in any yoga.

jai sri krishna! -madhav